User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:11:39 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you even find ROEs online? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
ROE of their respective era's? WWII guys win. Their ROE was kill the enemy and break his shit. This is my point exactly, if the rest can't tell, the question is really about ROE. Modern politically correct ROE is a killer. Show me any recent ROE in a combat theater that prevents American forces from locating, closing with, and destroying the enemy. Can you even find ROEs online? Probably not easily. I DO know though that there is NOTHING that will prevent American forces from killing the enemy- uniformed or not. We blow up fuckers for digging holes on the side of the road with a fucking cobra they didn't even know was there. ROE's aren't what everyone thinks they are. It does get a little sketchy at times, but if there is a uniformed declared enemy it's fucking on. If someone without a uniform shows hostile act or hostile intent...it's ALSO on. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:11:42 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You young guys have no ideal how fast you would lose. men where a different generation back then. hard working farm boys , and they lived in a time when parents kicked there asses. no crying about being cold or hungry . WWII guys were hunting for food as teens not playing video games. 300 men company wouldn't survive a day with a 300 men WWII troop with equal amount of weapons no electronics There's a real strong myth about the quality of the average American WWII Infantryman. Unfortunately it's a false myth. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:12:23 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You young guys have no ideal how fast you would lose. men where a different generation back then. hard working farm boys , and they lived in a time when parents kicked there asses. no crying about being cold or hungry . WWII guys were hunting for food as teens not playing video games. 300 men company wouldn't survive a day with a 300 men WWII troop with equal amount of weapons no electronics How long did you serve in the infantry? ETA- Again, no disrespect to the WWII guys but this myth of the hard-ass farm boy infantryman is funny. The WWII generation had their fair share of pansies just like this generation. Modern infantry is better trained and better equipped and now had 12 years of combat experience. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:12:32 PM EDT
[#4]
Grit and determination can overcome a lot, but it doesn't overcome 70+ years of advances in soldiering. This would be about on par with asking how Gettysburg would be if it was Lee vs Patton. The time difference is about the same!
Grandpappy would be in for an asskicking. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:12:52 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You young guys have no ideal how fast you would lose. men where a different generation back then. hard working farm boys , and they lived in a time when parents kicked there asses. no crying about being cold or hungry . WWII guys were hunting for food as teens not playing video games. 300 men company wouldn't survive a day with a 300 men WWII troop with equal amount of weapons no electronics Uh, no. A good chunk of the guys who were drafted were pencil pushing store clerks and students, not hard ass hunters and farmers. They took ANYONE whom they could take to fight the Germans (who had much better infantry at the time) and the Japanese. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:13:07 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just getting my body and mind ready to time travel kill my grandpa. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why do you love war crimes?  Just getting my body and mind ready to time travel kill my grandpa. But if you do, then you'll never have existed, therefore you didn't do anything, therefore you're not a war criminal. And we still won't know what round for grandpa.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:13:46 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But if you do, then you'll never have existed, therefore you didn't do anything, therefore you're not a war criminal. And we still won't know what round for grandpa. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Why do you love war crimes? Just getting my body and mind ready to time travel kill my grandpa. But if you do, then you'll never have existed, therefore you didn't do anything, therefore you're not a war criminal. And we still won't know what round for grandpa. Maybe you don't cease to exist. Maybe you just get transported to the Hitlerverse instead. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:14:09 PM EDT
[#8]
Modern. Superior communications. Superior night fighting capability. Armor.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:14:14 PM EDT
[#9]
Modern every time
Night vision, body armor, professional soldiers, vehicles, commo, optics, better machine guns |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:15:14 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Modern every time Night vision, body armor, professional soldiers, vehicles, commo, optics, better machine guns Not to mention better logistics as well. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:15:48 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sit in defense till night time. Murder WW2 people. Disappear because you killed your grandpa. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Body armor is going to go a long way. Sit in defense till night time. Murder WW2 people. Disappear because you killed your grandpa. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:15:51 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Being an 11B as recently as 2014, I really want to say modern but I still think it'd have to go to the old guys. Their only disadvantage against us is optics. They don't have 130lbs of PPE to slow them down. Their rifles can outrange ours. The individual soldier is going to be a tougher, leaner, meaner sumbitch; while half of ours won't be in the fight because they went red on dental and have a profile for fibromyalgia. I think that sooner or later it would come down to who had more experienced mortarmen if we are talking about men fighting against men with what they can carry on their backs. I'd be willing to get that by the end of WW2 that most of those guys were really good at setting up a mortar, lobbing a few really well placed shots and scooting out. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:17:41 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You young guys have no ideal how fast you would lose. men where a different generation back then. hard working farm boys , and they lived in a time when parents kicked there asses. no crying about being cold or hungry . WWII guys were hunting for food as teens not playing video games. My grandpa was 5 '6 and 100lbs during WWII, I would rip him in half, then laugh about it because I was desensitized by video games. Then disappear cause I killed my grandpa. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:19:19 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think that sooner or later it would come down to who had more experienced mortarmen if we are talking about men fighting against men with what they can carry on their backs. I'd be willing to get that by the end of WW2 that most of those guys were really good at setting up a mortar, lobbing a few really well placed shots and scooting out. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Being an 11B as recently as 2014, I really want to say modern but I still think it'd have to go to the old guys. Their only disadvantage against us is optics. They don't have 130lbs of PPE to slow them down. Their rifles can outrange ours. The individual soldier is going to be a tougher, leaner, meaner sumbitch; while half of ours won't be in the fight because they went red on dental and have a profile for fibromyalgia. I think that sooner or later it would come down to who had more experienced mortarmen if we are talking about men fighting against men with what they can carry on their backs. I'd be willing to get that by the end of WW2 that most of those guys were really good at setting up a mortar, lobbing a few really well placed shots and scooting out. And modern mortarmen sit around 29 Palms and drop mortars all goddamn day long. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:21:47 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sit in defense till night time. Murder WW2 people. Disappear because you killed your grandpa. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Body armor is going to go a long way. Sit in defense till night time. Murder WW2 people. Disappear because you killed your grandpa. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:26:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Serious answer: Modern soldiers would crush WW2 era soldiers. Significantly better training, significantly larger and more physically fit, vastly superior equipment, and 70 years to perfect the tactics that were born in WW2.
Non-serious answer: WW2 fuckin' wins, Garands are the key to victory in warfare. The raw murder capability of muh .30-06 makes a lion of any man. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:26:36 PM EDT
[#17]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:28:14 PM EDT
[#18]
Only way the WW2 guys win is if there is some gross disparity in the combat experience of both forces. i.e. the modern force is fresh out of AIT and has never worked together as a unit before and the WW2 force is the 506th from "Band of Brothers" towards the end of the war.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:28:56 PM EDT
[#19]
What "WWII troops" are we talking about? Have they seen combat, straight up infantry, airborne, FSSF? Or are we even talking about the US as it could theoretically include any axis or allied soldier or even those who weren't technically allied to anyone.
I think the FSSF and airborne troops that had seen tons of combat would certainly be a tough nut to crack. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:29:23 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: S_A_C thread |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:31:10 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think that sooner or later it would come down to who had more experienced mortarmen if we are talking about men fighting against men with what they can carry on their backs. I'd be willing to get that by the end of WW2 that most of those guys were really good at setting up a mortar, lobbing a few really well placed shots and scooting out. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Being an 11B as recently as 2014, I really want to say modern but I still think it'd have to go to the old guys. Their only disadvantage against us is optics. They don't have 130lbs of PPE to slow them down. Their rifles can outrange ours. The individual soldier is going to be a tougher, leaner, meaner sumbitch; while half of ours won't be in the fight because they went red on dental and have a profile for fibromyalgia. I think that sooner or later it would come down to who had more experienced mortarmen if we are talking about men fighting against men with what they can carry on their backs. I'd be willing to get that by the end of WW2 that most of those guys were really good at setting up a mortar, lobbing a few really well placed shots and scooting out. Interesting sidebar... what is the basic load of 60mm for a company today vs. 1944? |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:40:51 PM EDT
[#22]
Depends on the WW2 unit. My dad was in the 101st and was a D-day and Market Garden vet . They were well trained and in very good shape when they jumped into France. By that point he had marched across Ga in a training exorcise . Jumped at Camp McCall , had explosive training in England , The fought the SS and took no prisoners , Dad took being shot at personally and said they should have surrendered when they had ammo left . Dad was also in a Mortar squad , they jumped in with a 60mm mortar a nice feature to even some odds . He was also good with a Garand . he knew all of the tricks , reloading on a partial clip and he was very quick on the reload even in his 60's They also trained shooting at longer ranges than the army currently does . Dad liberated an unattended bank in Holland
 Really. , Even if he loses it will be a bloody fight . He shot a lot of Germans in 1944-45. He also killed a few Arabs in 1948 . He liked war
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 5:53:40 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
This should be fun, assume no fire support, reinforcements, or intelligence, fight starts in early morning shortly after sun up, area is mixed urban and open, think the outskirts of a city, one company sized element of each, each has the ROE and weapons and equipment of their respective eras, all else is equal, who wins? What about with equal weapons and equipment (assuming the other side has been familiarized)? LOL at all the people who responded "we would win by fighting at night!" or "we would win because we have mortars!" You can tell who didn't read the original post. Rifle company vs. Rifle company, with the ROE and weapons/equipment of their respective eras, I would say the ETO U.S. Army of 1945 vintage might carry the day. Lack of 130lbs. of personal protective gear and other gear alone aids their mobility greatly. What hurts them is the lack of modern comms. . |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:00:24 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL at all the people who responded "we would win by fighting at night!" or "we would win because we have mortars!" You can tell who didn't read the original post. Rifle company vs. Rifle company, with the ROE and weapons/equipment of their respective eras, I would say the ETO U.S. Army of 1945 vintage might carry the day. Lack of 130lbs. of personal protective gear and other gear alone aids their mobility greatly. What hurts them is the lack of modern comms. . Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This should be fun, assume no fire support, reinforcements, or intelligence, fight starts in early morning shortly after sun up, area is mixed urban and open, think the outskirts of a city, one company sized element of each, each has the ROE and weapons and equipment of their respective eras, all else is equal, who wins? What about with equal weapons and equipment (assuming the other side has been familiarized)? LOL at all the people who responded "we would win by fighting at night!" or "we would win because we have mortars!" You can tell who didn't read the original post. Rifle company vs. Rifle company, with the ROE and weapons/equipment of their respective eras, I would say the ETO U.S. Army of 1945 vintage might carry the day. Lack of 130lbs. of personal protective gear and other gear alone aids their mobility greatly. What hurts them is the lack of modern comms. . He said company vs company. I select mech infantry company and they don't even have to dismount |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:04:35 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He said company vs company. I select mech infantry company and they don't even have to dismount Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
This should be fun, assume no fire support, reinforcements, or intelligence, fight starts in early morning shortly after sun up, area is mixed urban and open, think the outskirts of a city, one company sized element of each, each has the ROE and weapons and equipment of their respective eras, all else is equal, who wins? What about with equal weapons and equipment (assuming the other side has been familiarized)? LOL at all the people who responded "we would win by fighting at night!" or "we would win because we have mortars!" You can tell who didn't read the original post. Rifle company vs. Rifle company, with the ROE and weapons/equipment of their respective eras, I would say the ETO U.S. Army of 1945 vintage might carry the day. Lack of 130lbs. of personal protective gear and other gear alone aids their mobility greatly. What hurts them is the lack of modern comms. . He said company vs company. I select mech infantry company and they don't even have to dismount d'oh. You win 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:06:08 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
[ LOL at all the people who responded "we would win by fighting at night!" or "we would win because we have mortars!" You can tell who didn't read the original post. He only said the fight started in the morning, not when it went till. although I guess they could have been transported to a planet of perpetual morning time, but then is it morning if its forever? Wait, how does the time machine work? |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:09:39 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just getting my body and mind ready to time travel kill my grandpa. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why do you love war crimes? Just getting my body and mind ready to time travel kill my grandpa. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:11:21 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ROE of their respective era's? WWII guys win. Their ROE was kill the enemy and break his shit. This. Modern infantry is hamstrung by lawyers (ROE) and generals that are a shadow of the WWII counterparts. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:11:29 PM EDT
[#29]
I dunno, I think a bunch of 90 year olds vs 19 year old is pretty unfair.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:23:06 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL at all the people who responded "we would win by fighting at night!" or "we would win because we have mortars!" You can tell who didn't read the original post. Rifle company vs. Rifle company, with the ROE and weapons/equipment of their respective eras, I would say the ETO U.S. Army of 1945 vintage might carry the day. Lack of 130lbs. of personal protective gear and other gear alone aids their mobility greatly. What hurts them is the lack of modern comms. . Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This should be fun, assume no fire support, reinforcements, or intelligence, fight starts in early morning shortly after sun up, area is mixed urban and open, think the outskirts of a city, one company sized element of each, each has the ROE and weapons and equipment of their respective eras, all else is equal, who wins? What about with equal weapons and equipment (assuming the other side has been familiarized)? LOL at all the people who responded "we would win by fighting at night!" or "we would win because we have mortars!" You can tell who didn't read the original post. Rifle company vs. Rifle company, with the ROE and weapons/equipment of their respective eras, I would say the ETO U.S. Army of 1945 vintage might carry the day. Lack of 130lbs. of personal protective gear and other gear alone aids their mobility greatly. What hurts them is the lack of modern comms. . Mortars are organic to the infantry company lol |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:23:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Modern Infantry is composed of Professional Soldiers, WW2 was conscripted,volunteers and a few Professionals. Modern Wins Pretty much sums it up |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:23:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. Modern infantry is hamstrung by lawyers (ROE) and generals that are a shadow of the WWII counterparts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
ROE of their respective era's? WWII guys win. Their ROE was kill the enemy and break his shit. This. Modern infantry is hamstrung by lawyers (ROE) and generals that are a shadow of the WWII counterparts. What ROE are you talking about. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:27:25 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What ROE are you talking about. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
ROE of their respective era's? WWII guys win. Their ROE was kill the enemy and break his shit. This. Modern infantry is hamstrung by lawyers (ROE) and generals that are a shadow of the WWII counterparts. What ROE are you talking about. The one that says that a group of uniformed soldiers must be treated as if it a bunch of kindergarteners. That also ignores the roe of the march to Baghdad |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:30:42 PM EDT
[#34]
WAIT A MINUTE
does the modern infantry company have to wear reflective belts? My God, that could make all the difference in the world. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:31:40 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Body armor is going to go a long way. Not against 30.06 |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:40:58 PM EDT
[#36]
Depends. I think a well seasoned WWII company that had seen loads of combat vs a company of modern 19 year olds who haven't seen a bit may be pretty close.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:42:37 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not against 30.06 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Body armor is going to go a long way. Not against 30.06 lol. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:43:29 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There's a real strong myth about the quality of the average American WWII Infantryman. Unfortunately it's a false myth. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You young guys have no ideal how fast you would lose. men where a different generation back then. hard working farm boys , and they lived in a time when parents kicked there asses. no crying about being cold or hungry . WWII guys were hunting for food as teens not playing video games. 300 men company wouldn't survive a day with a 300 men WWII troop with equal amount of weapons no electronics There's a real strong myth about the quality of the average American WWII Infantryman. Unfortunately it's a false myth. Thank Tom Brokaw |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:44:48 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
S_A_C thread |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:44:55 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Modern forces. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:47:17 PM EDT
[#41]
given equal weapons... WWII every time. Both sides are equally willing to kill for their country but only WWII warriors were willing to die for their country. When things get hairy, that generation got things done at whatever cost while this generation... not so much.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:52:11 PM EDT
[#42]
WW2 US infantry was basically a pickup game. The army went from about 200,00 soldiers in all branches in late 1939 to about 8 million by war's end. That meant there wasn't much in the way of a professional NCO or officer cadre, with all that implies.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:55:15 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
given equal weapons... WWII every time. Both sides are equally willing to kill for their country but only WWII warriors were willing to die for their country. When things get hairy, that generation got things done at whatever cost while this generation... not so much. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 6:55:51 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
but only WWII warriors were willing to die for their country. Yes, no one has ever died in the GWOT. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 7:00:21 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
given equal weapons... WWII every time. Both sides are equally willing to kill for their country but only WWII warriors were willing to die for their country. When things get hairy, that generation got things done at whatever cost while this generation... not so much. This opinion says much. Obviously you do not associate with men of character, because there are many of this generation willing to make the sacrifice. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 7:04:20 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not against 30.06 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Body armor is going to go a long way. Not against 30.06 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 7:04:22 PM EDT
[#47]
Where is that article that discusses something very similar?
The general belief was that modern infantry wins the day, fairly easily. It cites better health, better physical fitness, better training, and better tactical awareness than the WWII counterpart. As somebody said earlier. Modern infantry are volunteer professionals while WWII infantry were mostly conscripted. Something like WWII infantry are told to attack 'over there' and, while they have general principles, they mostly make it up as they go. While modern infantry has worked on this exact scenario dozens of times and everybody knows their role. Dunno if it was that article or not but I came across something that said that WWII casualty rates were not necessarily due to heavy-fighting-no-way-around-it-a-lot-of-people-are-dying but due to lack of training. Remember, while Germany was invading Poland, the US had one of the smallest poorly equipped armies in the world. They had to go from that to toeing it with the Axis nearly overnight. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 7:06:55 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, no one has ever died in the GWOT. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
but only WWII warriors were willing to die for their country. Yes, no one has ever died in the GWOT. There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 7:09:41 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
but only WWII warriors were willing to die for their country. Yes, no one has ever died in the GWOT. There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. And that lessens the sacrifice of those who died in Iraq and Afghanistan how, exactly? 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/30/2015 7:10:35 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
but only WWII warriors were willing to die for their country. Yes, no one has ever died in the GWOT. There were 6 battles in WW2 where there were more Americans killed than all of Iraq and Afghanistan deaths combined. ... and some in this thread are touting that as if it counts in the WWII GI's favor. |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
