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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:06:17 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Let's reference the article. The assembly at Brandon High School in May 2014 began with a prayer led by local Methodist pastor Rev. Rob Gill. Although not mandatory, the assembly honored the district's students who scored higher than a 22 on their ACT college tests I think the phrase in bold is kind of important. It was not a mandatory assembly. The anti-religionists claim that all they want is for the schools to not make Christian prayers a sort of requirement or part of a required activity. That would be well and good if that's all they really wanted, but it's increasingly clear to me that anti-religionists will not be happy until every public mention of anything religious is stamped out. I'm going to guess that I'm not the only one who has noticed this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Let's reference the article. The Article said: The assembly at Brandon High School in May 2014 began with a prayer led by local Methodist pastor Rev. Rob Gill. Although not mandatory, the assembly honored the district's students who scored higher than a 22 on their ACT college tests I think the phrase in bold is kind of important. It was not a mandatory assembly. The anti-religionists claim that all they want is for the schools to not make Christian prayers a sort of requirement or part of a required activity. That would be well and good if that's all they really wanted, but it's increasingly clear to me that anti-religionists will not be happy until every public mention of anything religious is stamped out. I'm going to guess that I'm not the only one who has noticed this. So if a student wants to attend an assembly in their honor for an academic accomplishment they have to sit through a Christian prayer? |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:09:25 PM EDT
[#2]
Depending on what was in the prayer, it may be that the judge doesn't know what "proselytizing" means any better than the courts know what "establishment of religion" means.
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:11:05 PM EDT
[#3]
It's very much like working in a shop where you can "choose" to not join the union. If you're not in the club you will be punished until you quit.
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:11:21 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a school, you go there to receive an education. Churches or homes are for praying. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is it that hard to just not pray? Is it that hard not to participate? It's a school, you go there to receive an education. Churches or homes are for praying. Exactly what educating was going on at this event? Exactly who says that praying is restricted to churches and homes? |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:11:35 PM EDT
[#5]
Why cant it just be a moment of silence?
Is that not a good middle ground? |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:13:09 PM EDT
[#6]
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The judge is a fucking moron who should be disbarred and publicly shamed. And whoever taught him constitutional law in law school should also be disbarred and publicly shamed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The free exercise of religion in the constitution does not mean that we have to leave our Christianity inside the confines of the church building or our homes. The judge doesn't see it that way. The judge is a fucking moron who should be disbarred and publicly shamed. And whoever taught him constitutional law in law school should also be disbarred and publicly shamed. 
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:15:11 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's all fun and games until someone throws down a prayer rug.... They love them some moon idol. |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:16:44 PM EDT
[#8]
There is a very simple solution. The students and their families should say the Lord's Prayer at the beginning of each assembly, football game, and school day, regardless of what the school officials and the judge say or don't say. There would be no government participation in the activity and thus no "violation" of the Establishment Clause.
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:18:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is a very simple solution. The students and their families should say the Lord's Prayer at the beginning of each assembly, football game, and school day, regardless of what the school officials and the judge say or don't say. There would be no government participation in the activity and thus no "violation" of the Establishment Clause. Have at it. I agree 100% |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:32:44 PM EDT
[#10]
All I see is someone getting a paycheck ant the cost of taxpayers and the students' education. Fining a school is stupid.
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:33:00 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The free exercise of religion in the constitution does not mean that we have to leave our Christianity inside the confines of the church building or our homes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is it that hard to just not pray? Is it that hard not to participate? It's a school, you go there to receive an education. Churches or homes are for praying. The free exercise of religion in the constitution does not mean that we have to leave our Christianity inside the confines of the church building or our homes. The Bill of Rights enumerates rights to individuals and restricts powers from government. You as an individual have the right to free excersize of religion Your children have this right as well, even in school. They can pray all they want. But, teachers and administrators in this scenario are not individuals, they are public employees, agents of the state, and as such are prohibited from leading children in prayer. The government doesn't get to establish religion or show preference for one over another, even when the majority want's it. Now, those same teachers and administrators when they are not acting in that capacity, on their own time do still enjoy all the rights of individuals. |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:40:01 PM EDT
[#12]
I fail to see how a U.S. District Judge has jurisdiction in such a case.
edited to add relevant section of the Mississippi State Constitution: SECTION 18. No religious test as a qualification for office shall be required; and no preference shall be given by law to any religious sect or mode of worship; but the free enjoyment of all religious sentiments and the different modes of worship shall be held sacred. The rights hereby secured shall not be construed to justify acts of licentiousness injurious to morals or dangerous to the peace and safety of the state, or to exclude the Holy Bible from use in any public school of this state. Nope not there either. |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:45:18 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All I see is someone getting a paycheck ant the cost of taxpayers and the students' education. Fining a school is stupid. The school chose to be stupid. Not following judges' orders are stupid, stupid comes with a penalty. |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:51:00 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am confident this thread will be full of reasoned discourse on both sides of the argument. It will cover much new ground and many minds will be changed.  yes
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:51:27 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I fail to see how a U.S. District Judge has jurisdiction in such a case. edited to add relevant section of the Mississippi State Constitution: SECTION 18. No religious test as a qualification for office shall be required; and no preference shall be given by law to any religious sect or mode of worship; but the free enjoyment of all religious sentiments and the different modes of worship shall be held sacred. The rights hereby secured shall not be construed to justify acts of licentiousness injurious to morals or dangerous to the peace and safety of the state, or to exclude the Holy Bible from use in any public school of this state. Nope not there either. They signed a settlement agreement after the bible thing.... Dont sign contracts you don't intend to follow and you won't get fined... |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:53:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Bill of Rights enumerates rights to individuals and restricts powers from government. You as an individual have the right to free excersize of religion Your children have this right as well, even in school. They can pray all they want. But, teachers and administrators in this scenario are not individuals, they are public employees, agents of the state, and as such are prohibited from leading children in prayer. The government doesn't get to establish religion or show preference for one over another, even when the majority want's it. Now, those same teachers and administrators when they are not acting in that capacity, on their own time do still enjoy all the rights of individuals. 1) I agree that public school shouldn't 'teach' Christianity. 2) I agree that the government shouldn't promote religion. Based on the way lefties and government worshippers of various type have approached the issue of Constitutional protection, such as "if your bakery is on a 'public' street you must cater gay weddings or you're discriminating". Here's my problem with all of this: if anything government touches becomes off-limits to religion, then it's pretty much over. Student-led prayers, with no staff involvement or government money spent, have been ruled 'bad' because they're breathing the air in the government building while doing it. A memorial Marines erected to their fallen brethren on a remote hilltop was ordered to be taken down, though no government resource was used to put it there, just because it was on a plot of land owned by the feds. The government touches everything. If we concede that anything the government touches must be scrubbed of any religious activity, that is a de facto infringement on the religious freedoms of Americans as far as I'm concerned. Of course, the libertarian answer is simple: the government shouldn't own or control damn-near everything, then it wouldn't be an issue. |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:53:34 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So if a student wants to attend an assembly in their honor for an academic accomplishment they have to sit through a Christian prayer? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Let's reference the article. The Article said: The assembly at Brandon High School in May 2014 began with a prayer led by local Methodist pastor Rev. Rob Gill. Although not mandatory, the assembly honored the district's students who scored higher than a 22 on their ACT college tests I think the phrase in bold is kind of important. It was not a mandatory assembly. The anti-religionists claim that all they want is for the schools to not make Christian prayers a sort of requirement or part of a required activity. That would be well and good if that's all they really wanted, but it's increasingly clear to me that anti-religionists will not be happy until every public mention of anything religious is stamped out. I'm going to guess that I'm not the only one who has noticed this. So if a student wants to attend an assembly in their honor for an academic accomplishment they have to sit through a Christian prayer? Oh, how horrible. 
I am not religious by any means, but I have sat through many Chaplin led prayers in the military. Get over it. Paying out for something like this is beyond idiotic. |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:54:29 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yesQuote HistoryQuoted:
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I am confident this thread will be full of reasoned discourse on both sides of the argument. It will cover much new ground and many minds will be changed. yesBeen pretty civil so far 
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Posted: 7/28/2015 1:59:22 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They signed a settlement agreement after the bible thing.... Dont sign contracts you don't intend to follow and you won't get fined... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I fail to see how a U.S. District Judge has jurisdiction in such a case. edited to add relevant section of the Mississippi State Constitution: SECTION 18. No religious test as a qualification for office shall be required; and no preference shall be given by law to any religious sect or mode of worship; but the free enjoyment of all religious sentiments and the different modes of worship shall be held sacred. The rights hereby secured shall not be construed to justify acts of licentiousness injurious to morals or dangerous to the peace and safety of the state, or to exclude the Holy Bible from use in any public school of this state. Nope not there either. They signed a settlement agreement after the bible thing.... Dont sign contracts you don't intend to follow and you won't get fined... Looks as if the contract is unconstitutional according to the US Constitution and the Mississippi constitution. I don't think one can contract slavery and abrogate the 13th Amendment. |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 2:08:46 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks as if the contract is unconstitutional according to the US Constitution and the Mississippi constitution. I don't think one can contract slavery and abrogate the 13th Amendment. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I fail to see how a U.S. District Judge has jurisdiction in such a case. edited to add relevant section of the Mississippi State Constitution: SECTION 18. No religious test as a qualification for office shall be required; and no preference shall be given by law to any religious sect or mode of worship; but the free enjoyment of all religious sentiments and the different modes of worship shall be held sacred. The rights hereby secured shall not be construed to justify acts of licentiousness injurious to morals or dangerous to the peace and safety of the state, or to exclude the Holy Bible from use in any public school of this state. Nope not there either. They signed a settlement agreement after the bible thing.... Dont sign contracts you don't intend to follow and you won't get fined... Looks as if the contract is unconstitutional according to the US Constitution and the Mississippi constitution. I don't think one can contract slavery and abrogate the 13th Amendment. Or, we could just leave religion out of schools and there wouldn't be an issue... But slavery sounds way cooler... |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 2:15:50 PM EDT
[#21]
I don't think the court knows what "proselytize" means.
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Posted: 7/28/2015 2:16:14 PM EDT
[#22]
And people wonder why this country is in the shitter. This thread is a prime example.
The perpetually oppressed and offended. Show us on the doll where the mean ol prayer hurt you. Change your tampons. |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 2:18:54 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or, we could just leave religion out of schools and there wouldn't be an issue... But slavery sounds way cooler... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I fail to see how a U.S. District Judge has jurisdiction in such a case. edited to add relevant section of the Mississippi State Constitution: SECTION 18. No religious test as a qualification for office shall be required; and no preference shall be given by law to any religious sect or mode of worship; but the free enjoyment of all religious sentiments and the different modes of worship shall be held sacred. The rights hereby secured shall not be construed to justify acts of licentiousness injurious to morals or dangerous to the peace and safety of the state, or to exclude the Holy Bible from use in any public school of this state. Nope not there either. They signed a settlement agreement after the bible thing.... Dont sign contracts you don't intend to follow and you won't get fined... Looks as if the contract is unconstitutional according to the US Constitution and the Mississippi constitution. I don't think one can contract slavery and abrogate the 13th Amendment. Or, we could just leave religion out of schools and there wouldn't be an issue... But slavery sounds way cooler... Why would you forbid the constitutionally protected free exercise right in school? The right of free men to believe what they want is fundamental. Maybe the problem is with the existence of public schools especially when they cannot or will not accommodate a civil right. At best the particular local community who sends their children to a public school should decide. That way said parents could hold any local official accountable through the local ballot box. No need for a U.S. District Judge to violate the 1st Amendment of the BoR or Section 18 of the Mississippi constitution. Good thing neither of us live in Mississippi. |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 2:21:25 PM EDT
[#24]
I don't believe in that stuff but it wouldn't bother me at all sitting thru it.
I'd probably be playing games on my phone while they prayed.  |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 2:55:04 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And people wonder why this country is in the shitter. This thread is a prime example. The perpetually oppressed and offended. Show us on the doll where the mean ol prayer hurt you. Change your tampons. I haven't read of a single poster in this thread or any other saying Christian prayer in school is oppression, or that they're offended at it. Hyperbole, the tool of the liberal. It's ugly on you. Talking about the appropriateness of where/when you preach, and to whom, is not a discussion of oppression or offense, it's just some of us who think there's a better place for it saying so...and as it happens, as taxpayers subject to a government who has often sided against prayer in school, we do have a say in it. Is it oppression to ask that you not as a school lead children in prayer while at a school function? Is it offensive that you do so instead anywhere you choose so long as it's not publicly funded? That's what this all comes down to. Why must you insist on preaching in school? |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 3:18:26 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I haven't read of a single poster in this thread or any other saying Christian prayer in school is oppression, or that they're offended at it. Hyperbole, the tool of the liberal. It's ugly on you. Talking about the appropriateness of where/when you preach, and to whom, is not a discussion of oppression or offense, it's just some of us who think there's a better place for it saying so...and as it happens, as taxpayers subject to a government who has often sided against prayer in school, we do have a say in it. Is it oppression to ask that you not as a school lead children in prayer while at a school function? Is it offensive that you do so instead anywhere you choose so long as it's not publicly funded? That's what this all comes down to. Why must you insist on preaching in school? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And people wonder why this country is in the shitter. This thread is a prime example. The perpetually oppressed and offended. Show us on the doll where the mean ol prayer hurt you. Change your tampons. I haven't read of a single poster in this thread or any other saying Christian prayer in school is oppression, or that they're offended at it. Hyperbole, the tool of the liberal. It's ugly on you. Talking about the appropriateness of where/when you preach, and to whom, is not a discussion of oppression or offense, it's just some of us who think there's a better place for it saying so...and as it happens, as taxpayers subject to a government who has often sided against prayer in school, we do have a say in it. Is it oppression to ask that you not as a school lead children in prayer while at a school function? Is it offensive that you do so instead anywhere you choose so long as it's not publicly funded? That's what this all comes down to. Why must you insist on preaching in school? Another tool of the liberal is the redefinition of words, and it's ugly on you. Just as the court has redefined "proselytize", so you have redefined "preaching". Neither of these is the same thing as praying. When I pray, I talk to God about you and me. When I proselytize or preach, I talk to you about God. When government determines when and where it is appropriate to pray, or engage in any other form of religious expression, it has infringed on the 1st Amendment, which says nothing about exceptions where government funding is involved. If you disagree, perhaps you'd be willing to start a thread about reasonable gun restrictions like prohibiting possession of firearms in any publicly-funded places, like sidewalks and streets. Of course, the real solution to this prayer issue and so many other problems that have nothing to do with religion is simply refusing to take government money. Of course, that'll never happen, so as long as Caesar's signing the paychecks, Caesar makes the rules, I suppose. I'm also glad to hear that you acknowledge that public prayer, including prayer at a public assembly in a public school, is neither oppressive nor offensive. Since you're not talking about oppression or offense but rather about your idea about what is appropriate, do you believe that your opinions on appropriateness of things not related to religious expression should be bound on others by force of law? |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 3:39:59 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I haven't read of a single poster in this thread or any other saying Christian prayer in school is oppression, or that they're offended at it. Hyperbole, the tool of the liberal. It's ugly on you. Talking about the appropriateness of where/when you preach, and to whom, is not a discussion of oppression or offense, it's just some of us who think there's a better place for it saying so...and as it happens, as taxpayers subject to a government who has often sided against prayer in school, we do have a say in it. Is it oppression to ask that you not as a school lead children in prayer while at a school function? Is it offensive that you do so instead anywhere you choose so long as it's not publicly funded? That's what this all comes down to. Why must you insist on preaching in school? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And people wonder why this country is in the shitter. This thread is a prime example. The perpetually oppressed and offended. Show us on the doll where the mean ol prayer hurt you. Change your tampons. I haven't read of a single poster in this thread or any other saying Christian prayer in school is oppression, or that they're offended at it. Hyperbole, the tool of the liberal. It's ugly on you. Talking about the appropriateness of where/when you preach, and to whom, is not a discussion of oppression or offense, it's just some of us who think there's a better place for it saying so...and as it happens, as taxpayers subject to a government who has often sided against prayer in school, we do have a say in it. Is it oppression to ask that you not as a school lead children in prayer while at a school function? Is it offensive that you do so instead anywhere you choose so long as it's not publicly funded? That's what this all comes down to. Why must you insist on preaching in school? Where did you see any mention of preaching? |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 3:48:38 PM EDT
[#28]
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Never ever piss off a judge. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/28/mississippi-school-district-fined-7500-for-opening-assembly-with-prayer/ Allowing a school assembly honoring high-achievers to open with a prayer made one Mississippi school district $7,500 poorer - and a student who sued $2,500 richer. The Rankin, Miss., public school district was hit with the fine after U.S. District Judge Carlton Reeves said it defied his prior order barring prayers school events. According to the judge, the prayer violated a 2013 court settlement that ordered the district to stop "proselytizing Christianity." The alleged violation, which came at an assembly last year for students who scored above 22 on their ACT college admissions test, prompted the judge to apply fines for that and another incident, in which Gideons International was permitted to hand out Bibles to elementary school students. "The district's breach did not take very long and it occurred in a very bold way," Reeves wrote in his judgment. "Its conduct displays that the district did not make any effort to adhere to the agreed judgment." Reeves also ordered the district to pay the student's legal fees, an amount that will be determined at a later date, and threatened a $10,000 fine for any future infractions of the order. and the lawyer got ? $ |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 3:49:51 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
oh it's not an assumption. When people say fuck islam and fuck muslims. That shows all of us that they hate islam and muslims. How many times have you seen "religion of piece" posted? It is just funny to me that people say it's ok to pray in school and it happens to be a christain prayer. If everyone would be fine with a muslim prayer as well, then I am 100% wrong and I'm sorry. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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But what if the prayer was a jewish prayer? Or a muslim prayer? Keep religion out of schools Why - do their prayers hurt you more? Nope. I don't care at all who people pray to or what they pray about. But I'm sure if they led a muslim prayer in school. People would not be saying "just sit there and not participate" Oh so you are making an assumption to prove others are not as tolerant as you. Ok, carry on then. oh it's not an assumption. When people say fuck islam and fuck muslims. That shows all of us that they hate islam and muslims. How many times have you seen "religion of piece" posted? It is just funny to me that people say it's ok to pray in school and it happens to be a christain prayer. If everyone would be fine with a muslim prayer as well, then I am 100% wrong and I'm sorry. Christian Religion of Peace |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 3:51:11 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Never ever piss off a judge. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/28/mississippi-school-district-fined-7500-for-opening-assembly-with-prayer/ Allowing a school assembly honoring high-achievers to open with a prayer made one Mississippi school district $7,500 poorer - and a student who sued $2,500 richer. The Rankin, Miss., public school district was hit with the fine after U.S. District Judge Carlton Reeves said it defied his prior order barring prayers school events. According to the judge, the prayer violated a 2013 court settlement that ordered the district to stop "proselytizing Christianity." The alleged violation, which came at an assembly last year for students who scored above 22 on their ACT college admissions test, prompted the judge to apply fines for that and another incident, in which Gideons International was permitted to hand out Bibles to elementary school students. "The district's breach did not take very long and it occurred in a very bold way," Reeves wrote in his judgment. "Its conduct displays that the district did not make any effort to adhere to the agreed judgment." Reeves also ordered the district to pay the student's legal fees, an amount that will be determined at a later date, and threatened a $10,000 fine for any future infractions of the order. *fedora tipping intesifies* |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 3:56:53 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why cant it just be a moment of silence? Is that not a good middle ground? Why do you hate Christian America? |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 3:57:43 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's all fun and games until someone throws down a prayer rug.... Personal prayer would be allowed. What if the school handed out prayer rugs and told the kids to pray? |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 3:58:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am confident this thread will be full of reasoned discourse on both sides of the argument. It will cover much new ground and many minds will be changed. lol
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Posted: 7/28/2015 4:13:16 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So if a student wants to attend an assembly in their honor for an academic accomplishment they have to sit through a Christian prayer? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Let's reference the article. The Article said: The assembly at Brandon High School in May 2014 began with a prayer led by local Methodist pastor Rev. Rob Gill. Although not mandatory, the assembly honored the district's students who scored higher than a 22 on their ACT college tests I think the phrase in bold is kind of important. It was not a mandatory assembly. The anti-religionists claim that all they want is for the schools to not make Christian prayers a sort of requirement or part of a required activity. That would be well and good if that's all they really wanted, but it's increasingly clear to me that anti-religionists will not be happy until every public mention of anything religious is stamped out. I'm going to guess that I'm not the only one who has noticed this. So if a student wants to attend an assembly in their honor for an academic accomplishment they have to sit through a Christian prayer? Well said... I love how everyone loves freedom of religion as long as it's their religion.... I can only imagine the butt hurt if it was a Muslim, Hindu, or other prayer.... Since we clearly can't satisfy all religions, just keep that shit out of public school.... If you want prayers before everyone you do, go to private schools - problem solved |
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Posted: 7/28/2015 4:43:55 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well said... I love how everyone loves freedom of religion as long as it's their religion.... I can only imagine the butt hurt if it was a Muslim, Hindu, or other prayer.... Since we clearly can't satisfy all religions, just keep that shit out of public school.... If you want prayers before everyone you do, go to private schools - problem solved 
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Posted: 7/29/2015 8:55:38 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where did you see any mention of preaching? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: And people wonder why this country is in the shitter. This thread is a prime example. The perpetually oppressed and offended. Show us on the doll where the mean ol prayer hurt you. Change your tampons. I haven't read of a single poster in this thread or any other saying Christian prayer in school is oppression, or that they're offended at it. Hyperbole, the tool of the liberal. It's ugly on you. Talking about the appropriateness of where/when you preach, and to whom, is not a discussion of oppression or offense, it's just some of us who think there's a better place for it saying so...and as it happens, as taxpayers subject to a government who has often sided against prayer in school, we do have a say in it. Is it oppression to ask that you not as a school lead children in prayer while at a school function? Is it offensive that you do so instead anywhere you choose so long as it's not publicly funded? That's what this all comes down to. Why must you insist on preaching in school? Where did you see any mention of preaching? Someone leading the prayer from a specific religious standpoint, so maybe preaching is the wrong word. As if that changes anything about my point, but go on...answer that last sentence with a different word. Why must you insist? |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 8:58:23 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What was your ACT score? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 22 is a "high achiever"?  What was your ACT score? |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 9:21:55 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Than repeal the laws that make it mandatory for a child to attend. Better yet disband "free public" school systems and allow the market to decide. At least then parents have a choice and can use thier money to decide where to send their children. That way no one will be forced to attend any school that may hurt thier feelings. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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But what if the prayer was a jewish prayer? Or a muslim prayer? Keep religion out of schools Than repeal the laws that make it mandatory for a child to attend. Better yet disband "free public" school systems and allow the market to decide. At least then parents have a choice and can use thier money to decide where to send their children. That way no one will be forced to attend any school that may hurt thier feelings. GREAT idea! Only problem is the government schools are for teaching that government is god. They won't be having any serious competition in that regard either. Get it. 
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Posted: 7/29/2015 9:28:21 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Another tool of the liberal is the redefinition of words, and it's ugly on you. Just as the court has redefined "proselytize", so you have redefined "preaching". Neither of these is the same thing as praying. See above, it was a poor choice of words, but it doesn't speak to my point which is a specific religion being shown to the students at the expense of all others, or none at all. When I pray, I talk to God about you and me. When I proselytize or preach, I talk to you about God. When you lead someone in prayer, you're also guiding them to the words you choose. Splitting hairs here, but the end result is you're asking those you lead to follow. If it's just prayer, it would have been silent and individual. So, again...see point number one. When government determines when and where it is appropriate to pray, or engage in any other form of religious expression, it has infringed on the 1st Amendment, which says nothing about exceptions where government funding is involved. If you disagree, perhaps you'd be willing to start a thread about reasonable gun restrictions like prohibiting possession of firearms in any publicly-funded places, like sidewalks and streets. Laughable argument and analogy. The government runs those schools, which your child is not bound or obligated to attend, and it absolutely has the right to determine that you may not use their building and school to lead children in prayer to one specific religion (or any at all). They have this power on the consent of the individuals, like me who are not part of that religion but whose taxes pay for it and whose children attend it. That's not the purpose of public school, and regardless of the history of prayer in school, it's the right outcome that we've divorced education and religion where the general public (made of all religions and no religions) share the cost and attend the same schools. Of course, the real solution to this prayer issue and so many other problems that have nothing to do with religion is simply refusing to take government money. Of course, that'll never happen, so as long as Caesar's signing the paychecks, Caesar makes the rules, I suppose. I agree that education should not be the domain of the Federal government, but I also believe those who insist (and in this case flagrantly defying something they agreed to previously) on bringing their own specific religion into schools should instead refuse government education and home-school, or private school their kids if this is important to you. Walk that fucking walk. I'm also glad to hear that you acknowledge that public prayer, including prayer at a public assembly in a public school, is neither oppressive nor offensive. Since you're not talking about oppression or offense but rather about your idea about what is appropriate, do you believe that your opinions on appropriateness of things not related to religious expression should be bound on others by force of law? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: And people wonder why this country is in the shitter. This thread is a prime example. The perpetually oppressed and offended. Show us on the doll where the mean ol prayer hurt you. Change your tampons. I haven't read of a single poster in this thread or any other saying Christian prayer in school is oppression, or that they're offended at it. Hyperbole, the tool of the liberal. It's ugly on you. Talking about the appropriateness of where/when you preach, and to whom, is not a discussion of oppression or offense, it's just some of us who think there's a better place for it saying so...and as it happens, as taxpayers subject to a government who has often sided against prayer in school, we do have a say in it. Is it oppression to ask that you not as a school lead children in prayer while at a school function? Is it offensive that you do so instead anywhere you choose so long as it's not publicly funded? That's what this all comes down to. Why must you insist on preaching in school? Another tool of the liberal is the redefinition of words, and it's ugly on you. Just as the court has redefined "proselytize", so you have redefined "preaching". Neither of these is the same thing as praying. See above, it was a poor choice of words, but it doesn't speak to my point which is a specific religion being shown to the students at the expense of all others, or none at all. When I pray, I talk to God about you and me. When I proselytize or preach, I talk to you about God. When you lead someone in prayer, you're also guiding them to the words you choose. Splitting hairs here, but the end result is you're asking those you lead to follow. If it's just prayer, it would have been silent and individual. So, again...see point number one. When government determines when and where it is appropriate to pray, or engage in any other form of religious expression, it has infringed on the 1st Amendment, which says nothing about exceptions where government funding is involved. If you disagree, perhaps you'd be willing to start a thread about reasonable gun restrictions like prohibiting possession of firearms in any publicly-funded places, like sidewalks and streets. Laughable argument and analogy. The government runs those schools, which your child is not bound or obligated to attend, and it absolutely has the right to determine that you may not use their building and school to lead children in prayer to one specific religion (or any at all). They have this power on the consent of the individuals, like me who are not part of that religion but whose taxes pay for it and whose children attend it. That's not the purpose of public school, and regardless of the history of prayer in school, it's the right outcome that we've divorced education and religion where the general public (made of all religions and no religions) share the cost and attend the same schools. Of course, the real solution to this prayer issue and so many other problems that have nothing to do with religion is simply refusing to take government money. Of course, that'll never happen, so as long as Caesar's signing the paychecks, Caesar makes the rules, I suppose. I agree that education should not be the domain of the Federal government, but I also believe those who insist (and in this case flagrantly defying something they agreed to previously) on bringing their own specific religion into schools should instead refuse government education and home-school, or private school their kids if this is important to you. Walk that fucking walk. I'm also glad to hear that you acknowledge that public prayer, including prayer at a public assembly in a public school, is neither oppressive nor offensive. Since you're not talking about oppression or offense but rather about your idea about what is appropriate, do you believe that your opinions on appropriateness of things not related to religious expression should be bound on others by force of law? No, of course not I'm a libertarian. Force almost always wrong and I don't believe my opinion should carry any weight except in the arena of ideas. However, there is a certain force in insisting that others share your religion in an environment such as a school....just as there would be if I came to your church and walked the pews picking apart the Bible. I'd bet you would think that's inappropriate, even if you supported my right to be there. Well, I support your right to pray in school all you want, just don't hold prayer assemblies, lead people in prayer, or use your time to try to influence others on behalf of that school. That's the 1st amendment argument in theory and practice. You can pray all the fuck you want at school, just don't use the school's resources to organize and promulgate your ideas....and I'll do the same. Mutual respect, ain't it grand? You keep the business of religion in the church, or at home, or in your heart, or on a streetcorner, and leave the public schools to be free of any force. And, I'll support your right to practice your religion 100%. Fuck, I'm the first to say the government is wrong to try to force Hobby Lobby to do things against their religious beliefs, or cake bakers, or anyone else. Your religion, your business. Our public schools? Our business. There's nothing hard about this...just stubborn folks on both sides who won't quit trying to inject Christianity back into the schools and the atheists who fight it. All I'm doing is commenting...and my opinion is worth what you paid for it. I don't make policy, or complain, or throw rocks. I just comment. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 9:31:17 PM EDT
[#40]
Since when is a 22 high achieving? Our school averages 26
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Posted: 7/29/2015 10:02:54 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a school, you go there to receive an education. Churches or homes are for praying. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is it that hard to just not pray? Is it that hard not to participate? It's a school, you go there to receive an education. Churches or homes are for praying. +10,000 I lean to Zen Buddhism and I do not want a single Mantra or Sutra chanted in a public school. That is for your church/temple or home unless the school is private. The populance of the U.S. Might be majority Christian, but the .gov in every form is secular. By leading a prayer in this fashion, the .gov is endorsing a faith by default, which should not happen. There should not be oaths on holy books in court, IMHO(it should be a legal statement under U.S. Law that you are telling the truth under penalty of purgery) Madison would be upset over that one, BTW. Jefferson on this topic: Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.[20] Pretty clear to me and Madison agreed with him. The two need to be kep distinct with NO sect of ANY faith with a "preferred" status. |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 10:07:17 PM EDT
[#42]
Celebrate a 22 on the ACT?
I think my parents would have been pissed off if I got a 22 on the ACT. Did the ACT get harder in the last 15 years, or did everyone just get dumber? |
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Posted: 7/29/2015 10:13:13 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well...it is Mississippi. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
22 is a "high achiever"?
Well...it is Mississippi. Hey now, I made significantly higher. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 6:56:52 AM EDT
[#44]
I'm surprised that problems like this are not solved by just deleting the problem.
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:13:27 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So if a student wants to attend an assembly in their honor for an academic accomplishment they have to sit through a Christian prayer? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Let's reference the article. The Article said: The assembly at Brandon High School in May 2014 began with a prayer led by local Methodist pastor Rev. Rob Gill. Although not mandatory, the assembly honored the district's students who scored higher than a 22 on their ACT college tests I think the phrase in bold is kind of important. It was not a mandatory assembly. The anti-religionists claim that all they want is for the schools to not make Christian prayers a sort of requirement or part of a required activity. That would be well and good if that's all they really wanted, but it's increasingly clear to me that anti-religionists will not be happy until every public mention of anything religious is stamped out. I'm going to guess that I'm not the only one who has noticed this. So if a student wants to attend an assembly in their honor for an academic accomplishment they have to sit through a Christian prayer? Do they have to sit through some diatribe on global warming? Do they have to listen to some nonsense about homosexuality being normal or accepting transsexuals? How about some animal rights bs? Do they have to endure socialist rants or crap about “white/male privilege?” |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:14:13 AM EDT
[#46]
Because Christianity is such a bad thing
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:40:27 AM EDT
[#47]
"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. "But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you" Matthew 6:5
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Posted: 7/30/2015 7:46:22 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do they have to sit through some diatribe on global warming? Do they have to listen to some nonsense about homosexuality being normal or accepting transsexuals? How about some animal rights bs? Do they have to endure socialist rants or crap about “white/male privilege?” Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Let's reference the article. The Article said: The assembly at Brandon High School in May 2014 began with a prayer led by local Methodist pastor Rev. Rob Gill. Although not mandatory, the assembly honored the district's students who scored higher than a 22 on their ACT college tests I think the phrase in bold is kind of important. It was not a mandatory assembly. The anti-religionists claim that all they want is for the schools to not make Christian prayers a sort of requirement or part of a required activity. That would be well and good if that's all they really wanted, but it's increasingly clear to me that anti-religionists will not be happy until every public mention of anything religious is stamped out. I'm going to guess that I'm not the only one who has noticed this. So if a student wants to attend an assembly in their honor for an academic accomplishment they have to sit through a Christian prayer? Do they have to sit through some diatribe on global warming? Do they have to listen to some nonsense about homosexuality being normal or accepting transsexuals? How about some animal rights bs? Do they have to endure socialist rants or crap about “white/male privilege?” Well god damn stop taking government money and do whatever the fuck you want in your school. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:02:42 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why the fuck should I sit quietly? Is it just Christianity? That's bullshit. Kids go to school to learn anyway not to pray. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No one is forcing you to pray. This isn't fucking China. If you don't want to, don't. Sit quietly for the 20 seconds it takes and let's hope it doesn't traumatize you for life. Why the fuck should I sit quietly? Is it just Christianity? That's bullshit. Kids go to school to learn anyway not to pray. Spiritual growth is learning. One of the most basic elements of faith is expression of that faith. The Bible literally says so... You don't have to believe it but it is clearly within the free exercise of religion that is covered in the 1A. The pilgrms didn't come to America in search of a place where they could only practice Christianity in hiding or at the permission of a government official. Quite the contrary... The 1A includes the phrase "Free exercise thereof" for that same reason. |
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Posted: 7/30/2015 8:21:34 AM EDT
[#50]
Good. Religion should not be in public schools.
Page 3? ETA...nope
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