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Link Posted: 7/28/2015 11:02:22 AM EDT
[#1]
The P-38, in the hands of a good pilot, was an amazing plane. In the hands of an average pilot, it was a below-average plane. In the hands of a bad pilot, it was a deathtrap.

It was an airplane that just had a high workload, but also a high performance ceiling. That's why you see such great performances in it, but you also saw things like it being withdrawn from the 8th AF. You had to have the pilots to use it. It did well with the 15th AF and in the Pacific, though.

The P-51 had good performance, but it's real advantage was it's range. Other fighters had similar, or even superior, performance, but it doesn't matter if you can't get to the fight and stay there. That's why the Spitfire was progressively less relevant after the Battle of Britain.  It was a great fighter... as long as it could fight right above it's own bases.

The aircraft in the Pacific... it was a different war, and the Japanese air threat just wasn't what the German threat was. The Zero had serious flaws, and once we realized what those were, even the P-40 and F4F were more than a match, and those were not stellar performers. I'm really not sure you can compare the Naval fighters in the Pacific to the fighters in the ETO.

All in all... I would say you can fairly make the argument that the P-51 was tops.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 11:03:41 AM EDT
[#2]

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The problem with picking American planes as the best in WW2 is that we came in so late other planes already had hundreds of kills, and some would say we were fighting the dregs and newbs by that point.



In any event, the best plane we ever built was the P-61 not 51. The Mustang was garbage compared to the Black Widow and if you had them meet at 10k feet over the desert at midnite the P-51 would lose 9 out 10 fights.





http://www.histoiredumonde.net/images/20_eme_siecle/avions/p61/intro.jpg

ETA- The mustang didn't even have a giant radio/radar compartment! lol!

http://www.warbirdsnews.com/wp-content/uploads/P-61-radio-Compartment.jpg
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706 P-61s built compared to 15,000 P-51s. The P-61 was a radar based night interceptor. You are comparing apples to oranges  



 
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 11:08:12 AM EDT
[#3]
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Ok, some but not many and they were mostly in North Africa and didn't fare as well against the Germans as it did against the Japanese. They saw very limited use and I have never heard of a Me262 Vs P-38 match up.
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There were some P38's in Europe.


Ok, some but not many and they were mostly in North Africa and didn't fare as well against the Germans as it did against the Japanese. They saw very limited use and I have never heard of a Me262 Vs P-38 match up.


P-38s were rotated to the Pacific once P-51s and P-47s took over the long-range escort duties.  Most of what remained in Europe were F-5 recon planes; basically P-38s that had the guns in the nose replaced with cameras.



Quick Google search reveals that at least one Me-262 did kill an F-5; 12/2/1944.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 11:10:19 AM EDT
[#4]
It could be argued that the B-17s, B-24s, Lancasters, et al were the real heavy lifters in achieving air superiority in the ETO.  

If Allied fighters had to go chasing the 109s and 190s all over Europe,  the Luftwaffe would likely lasted a lot longer.  The bombers forced the issue, and let the Allies control where and when the fights happened.

Link Posted: 7/28/2015 11:12:18 AM EDT
[#5]
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German pilots had lots and lots of Russian and Polish aerial kills.  Lot's of inferior biplanes were chalked up in those German kill tallies.
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Don't know if it was true, but read somewhere that whenever a German got a kill, all Luftwaffe pilots in the vicinity got credit for a full kill also.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 11:14:17 AM EDT
[#6]
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  The Merlin engines in P-51s were already supercharged, many with two-stage, two-speed blowers, IIRC.
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I think Spain and Israel bought some after WWII and supercharged the engines and that mod upped the airspeed quite a bit.

  The Merlin engines in P-51s were already supercharged, many with two-stage, two-speed blowers, IIRC.

Oops meant to say turbocharged. I remember seeing pics of them with larger intake and ducting and a six blade prop.

During the war turbocharging them was deemed impractical.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 11:16:27 AM EDT
[#7]
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German pilots had lots and lots of Russian and Polish aerial kills.  Lot's of inferior biplanes were chalked up in those German kill tallies.
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I always figured those insane kill tallies of German Aces were a good part due to lousy equipment and inexperienced poorly trained pilots on the eastern front.  We gave the Russians lots of P-39's...
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 11:17:27 AM EDT
[#8]
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706 P-61s built compared to 15,000 P-51s. The P-61 was a radar based night interceptor. You are comparing apples to oranges  
 
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The problem with picking American planes as the best in WW2 is that we came in so late other planes already had hundreds of kills, and some would say we were fighting the dregs and newbs by that point.

In any event, the best plane we ever built was the P-61 not 51. The Mustang was garbage compared to the Black Widow and if you had them meet at 10k feet over the desert at midnite the P-51 would lose 9 out 10 fights.


http://www.histoiredumonde.net/images/20_eme_siecle/avions/p61/intro.jpg
ETA- The mustang didn't even have a giant radio/radar compartment! lol!
http://www.warbirdsnews.com/wp-content/uploads/P-61-radio-Compartment.jpg

706 P-61s built compared to 15,000 P-51s. The P-61 was a radar based night interceptor. You are comparing apples to oranges  
 

Doesn't change the fact that the 61 would smoke it, several of his friends, and whatever bombers he was escorting without even working up a sweat. Also, as I said, "if you had them meet at 10k feet over the desert at midnite".
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 11:21:33 AM EDT
[#9]
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Don't know if it was true, but read somewhere that whenever a German got a kill, all Luftwaffe pilots in the vicinity got credit for a full kill also.
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German pilots had lots and lots of Russian and Polish aerial kills.  Lot's of inferior biplanes were chalked up in those German kill tallies.


Don't know if it was true, but read somewhere that whenever a German got a kill, all Luftwaffe pilots in the vicinity got credit for a full kill also.



Untrue.  German confirmation requirements were basically the same as ours.  What skews the numbers for German pilots is their operational practices.  In the allies, a good pilot would do his tour then go home and train other pilots.  In the Luftwaffe you flew until you died or the war ended.  We had enough pilots that we could rotate back to the states.  The Germans didn't have that luxury.  Hartman flew basically non-stop for three years.  That would have been unheard of in the USAAF or the RAF for that matter.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 11:25:06 AM EDT
[#10]

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Untrue.  German confirmation requirements were basically the same as ours.  What skews the numbers for German pilots is their operational practices.  In the allies, a good pilot would do his tour then go home and train other pilots.  In the Luftwaffe you flew until you died or the war ended.  We had enough pilots that we could rotate back to the states.  The Germans didn't have that luxury.  Hartman flew basically non-stop for three years.  That would have been unheard of in the USAAF or the RAF for that matter.
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Quoted:


Quoted:

German pilots had lots and lots of Russian and Polish aerial kills.  Lot's of inferior biplanes were chalked up in those German kill tallies.




Don't know if it was true, but read somewhere that whenever a German got a kill, all Luftwaffe pilots in the vicinity got credit for a full kill also.






Untrue.  German confirmation requirements were basically the same as ours.  What skews the numbers for German pilots is their operational practices.  In the allies, a good pilot would do his tour then go home and train other pilots.  In the Luftwaffe you flew until you died or the war ended.  We had enough pilots that we could rotate back to the states.  The Germans didn't have that luxury.  Hartman flew basically non-stop for three years.  That would have been unheard of in the USAAF or the RAF for that matter.




 
Hartman was also very aggressive to get those kills too. He was a point black shooter and had a number of crash landings because of damage his plane took from the plane he just shot down. I think he had over 1400 sorties or something ridiculous like that.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 11:25:06 AM EDT
[#11]
I still think the final version of the P-38 was the best american fighter of the war. The thing about the P-38 was it got a bit of a bad rap due to the early versions which had major issues that needed attention such as problems in a dive, power, etc. Once the bugs got sorted out... pilots started really racking up kills. Later in the war... the pacific was where the real action was so that is where the P38 really showed its stuff. The mustangs were sexy and I've seen interviews with pilots who said they were great planes except they were not durable... Ie a single bullet in the engine area would usually take them down. Contrast that to the P47 and corsairs which could absorb a lot of damage without going down.

I like all those planes but if I had my choice... give me the late war P38.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 11:41:25 AM EDT
[#12]

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Goes along with the "might have".



Sorry, Bearcat fans, you don't get any kills and show up to the party late, you can go hang out with your buddy the Do335.
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Quoted:


Quoted:

F8F Bear Cat was in service before the end of the war and out performed jets for many years afterward. Granted it did not have any kills in WW2 but if the war had gone longer it might have. Based on speaking with pilots that have flown many different WW3 aircraft the F8F outclasses all others.



http://www.warbirddepot.com/dbimages/146/146-a-1280.jpg






Freudian slip or spoilers?




Goes along with the "might have".



Sorry, Bearcat fans, you don't get any kills and show up to the party late, you can go hang out with your buddy the Do335.


Sorry but the question was not which one had the most kills but what was the best one of WW2. Even if it did nto ahve a single kill, it was fielded before the end of the war and was superior to other aircraft at the time.



 
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 11:47:39 AM EDT
[#13]
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I always figured those insane kill tallies of German Aces were a good part due to lousy equipment and inexperienced poorly trained pilots on the eastern front.  We gave the Russians lots of P-39's...
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German pilots had lots and lots of Russian and Polish aerial kills.  Lot's of inferior biplanes were chalked up in those German kill tallies.


I always figured those insane kill tallies of German Aces were a good part due to lousy equipment and inexperienced poorly trained pilots on the eastern front.  We gave the Russians lots of P-39's...


Read more about that, because it's simply not the case.

Russian pilots in the beginning sucked, by 1942/43 they really had started getting their shit together.

Hartman didn't start till 1942.

Also the highest scoring allied ace was a Russian.

Due to the fact the Luftwaffe stupidly never trained enough aircrew or rotated them out, they lost air superiority.  However, a small percentage of their top aces reached a level of skill that was without equal.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 11:49:47 AM EDT
[#14]
I don't know.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 11:52:56 AM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:


This.
Bong flew a Lighting in the Pacific.
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Maj. Bong flew a P-38.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


This.
Bong flew a Lighting in the Pacific.





Link Posted: 7/28/2015 12:07:11 PM EDT
[#16]

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Read more about that, because it's simply not the case.



Russian pilots in the beginning sucked, by 1942/43 they really had started getting their shit together.



Hartman didn't start till 1942.



Also the highest scoring allied ace was a Russian.



Due to the fact the Luftwaffe stupidly never trained enough aircrew or rotated them out, they lost air superiority.  However, a small percentage of their top aces reached a level of skill that was without equal.

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Quoted:



Quoted:


Quoted:

German pilots had lots and lots of Russian and Polish aerial kills.  Lot's of inferior biplanes were chalked up in those German kill tallies.




I always figured those insane kill tallies of German Aces were a good part due to lousy equipment and inexperienced poorly trained pilots on the eastern front.  We gave the Russians lots of P-39's...





Read more about that, because it's simply not the case.



Russian pilots in the beginning sucked, by 1942/43 they really had started getting their shit together.



Hartman didn't start till 1942.



Also the highest scoring allied ace was a Russian.



Due to the fact the Luftwaffe stupidly never trained enough aircrew or rotated them out, they lost air superiority.  However, a small percentage of their top aces reached a level of skill that was without equal.



I have a German language memoir of a FW190 pilot (grandfather of one of the soldiers in our Bundeswehr partner unit)-well into 1943, they were still doing "officer and a gentleman" style training.



 
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 12:16:42 PM EDT
[#17]
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D-day paint, I got it but the P-38 saw very limited use in Europe, didn't fare well and was mostly North Africa
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D-day paint, I got it but the P-38 saw very limited use in Europe, didn't fare well and was mostly North Africa


Read more. Pontificate less.

P-38s flew in Europe, from England, into the heart of Germany.  They did well in a2a, but excelled in ground attack.
Try this source.

P-38 in European Theatre

Last revised June 13, 1999

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p38_17.html

The story of the P-38 continues with an account of its service in the European theatre.

Having conducted service testing of the YP-38 in the late spring of 1941, the 1st Pursuit Group at Selfridge Field, Michigan was selected to become the first unit to receive P-38s and P-38Ds. The first Lightnings they received did not have their cannons fitted. The 1st Pursuit Group participated with some success in the Louisiana maneuvers of September 1941. Two days after Pearl Harbor, the Unit moved to NAS San Diego and joined the March Field-based 14th Pursuit Group, then transitioning to P-38D/P-38E. Although these fighters were not yet combat ready, these outfits had the only truly modern fighters then available to the USAAF, and provided West Coast defense at a time that Japanese attacks on the US mainland were believed to be imminent

Even though the defense of the US west coast initially took priority, plans were made in the spring of 1942 to deploy Lightning squadrons to Britain. This deployment caused logistical problems, since the U-boat menace made shipping across the Atlantic quite risky. However, development by Lockheed of reliable drop tanks for the P-38F-1-LO increased the ferry range from 1300 to 2200 miles. Test pilot Milo Burcham actually demonstrated a maximum range of over 3100 miles. This made it possible to ferry the Lightnings from Maine to the UK via Goose Bay, Labrador to Bluie West One (Greenland) to Reykjavik, Iceland and finally to Prestwick, Scotland. Following the victory at Midway, the USAAF felt sufficiently confident that the Japanese fleet was not about to show up off Santa Barbara that they decided to redeploy the 1st and 14th Fighter (renamed from Pursuit in May 1942) Groups to Britain. By August 1942, 81 P-38Fs of four of the six squadrons of the 1st and 14th Fighter Groups had arrived in Great Britain to complete the first transatlantic crossing by single-seat fighters. Two other Lightning squadrons (the 27th and the 50th) were held over in Iceland to assist the Curtiss P-40Cs of the 33rd Fighter Squadron in the flying of defensive patrols over the Atlantic. On August 14, 1942, a P-38F flown by 2nd Lieut Elza Shaham shared with a P-40C in the destruction of a Focke- Wulf FW-200C-3 to obtain the first victory over a Luftwaffe aircraft.

The P-38F-equipped 82nd Fighter Group arrived in Northern Ireland in November 1942.

After flying 347 practice and sweep sorties during which there was no contact with the Luftwaffe, the 1st, 14th and 82nd Fighter Groups were transferred to the 12th Air Force in North Africa. While in transit from Britain to Algeria, pilots of the 82nd Fighter Group were credited with the destruction of two Ju-88 bombers over the Bay of Biscay. The Lightnings were soon in regular combat in the North African theatre. The first of these took place on November 19, 1942 when the P-38Fs of the 1st Fighter Group escorted B-17s on a bombing raid on the El Aouina airfield at Tunis. The three P-38 groups contributed a great deal toward the establishment of local air superiority in the area. On April 5, 1943, 26 P-38Fs of the 82nd Fighter Group claimed the destruction of 31 enemy aircraft as against the loss of six Lightnings. In these air battles, mixed success was obtained Because of the tactics of the enemy, the Lightnings were forced to fight at lower altitudes of 15,000 feet, and in battles against fighters it was not entirely successful. The twin engines restricted maneuverability to some extent and the Lightning had a wheel control instead of the conventional stick, which may also have restricted maneuverability. Nevertheless, the Lightning was effective against bombers and had a sensational zoom climb that could rarely be matched. It wreaked great havoc among Rommel's air transport well out to sea, earning for itself the German nickname "der Gabelschwanz Teufel"--the Fork-Tailed Devil.

All Axis forces in the area surrendered on May 13, 1943, due in no small part to the contribution of the Lightning in cutting off Rommel's air supply route.

Already prior to the Axis defeat in Tunisia, the Northwest African Air Forces (of which the Twelfth Air Force was a component) had begun preparations for the invasion of Sicily. Attacks on Sicily, on Pantelleria and on Lampedusa were stepped up in preparation for Operation Husky, the invasion of Sicily on July 10, 1943. Lightnings were in the midst of the fray until Sicily fell on August 17. The three P-38 Fighter Groups then concentrated their efforts against the Italian mainland. On November 1, 1943, they were transferred to the 15th Air Force. By that time, 37 Twelfth Air Force Lightning pilots had made ace, the top scorer being Lieut W. J. Sloan of the 82nd Fighter Group with 12 kills. Lieut H. T. Hanna of the 14th Fighter Group made ace in one day by destroying five Ju 87 dive bombers on October 9, 1943.

Following their transfer, the 1st, 14th and 82nd Fighter Groups concentrated on escorting the B-17 and B-24 bombers of the Fifteenth Air Force in their raids on targets in Austria, the Balkans, France, Greece, and Italy. However, on occasion, they escorted the medium bombers of the Twelfth Air Force.

The first Lightning-escorted raids on Germany began in February 1944 with raids on aircraft factories in the southern part of that country. In April 1944 the Lightnings escorted bombers in raids on the oil refineries at Ploesti in Rumania. Bomb-carrying Lightnings also visited Ploesti on June 10, 1944 when 46 aircraft of the 82nd Fighter Group each carrying 1000-pound bombs paid a visit to the Romano Americana Oil Refinery under the protective escort of 48 P-38s of the 1st Fighter Group. On that raid, good bombing and strafing results were obtained, but in fighter actions against the Luftwaffe twenty-two P-38s were lost against 23 enemy aircraft claimed destroyed.

Six weeks later, Lightnings flew their first shuttle mission to Russia and returned to their Italian base after spending three days at a Soviet base in the Ukraine. Along with their P-51 escorts, they shot down thirty German planes and destroyed twelve on the ground. The last Lightning shuttle mission was flown on August 4/6 and was marked by the daring rescue of a downed pilot by Lieut R. J. Andrews who landed his Lightning in an open field to pick up Capt R. E. Willsie.

The three Lightning Groups also took part in the August 1944 Allied landings in southern France. After that, they returned to providing fighter escort for bombers operating against strategic targets. By the end of the war, 28 of these Lightning pilots had made ace.

The departure of the 1st and 14th Fighter Groups for North Africa in November 1942 left the Eighth Air Force without Lightnings until September 1943, when the 55th Fighter Group arrived in England with its P-38Hs. It began combat operations on October 15, 1943, making its first kill on November 2. The next month, the outfit converted to P-38Js. On March 3, 1944, the 55th flew to Berlin for the first time, a round trip of 1300 miles. The 20th, 364th and 479th Fighter Groups soon became operational in England with P-38s.

However, in air combat over Germany, the Lightning was generally outclassed by the more maneuverable Fw 190 and the later marks of the Bf 109, especially at medium and low altitudes. However, the Lightning had a much faster top speed, a higher rate of climb and operational ceiling and was much better armed. Once pilots had perfected fighting tactics which suited the Lightning's unique characteristics, they had better success. The usual tactics was for the P-38 to climb to a high altitude and then dive down on the enemy, attacking him with a burst of firepower and then zoom back up out of harm's way. The later versions of the P-38 were equipped with maneuvering flaps, and when their pilots learned how to use these flaps properly, the P-38 could hold its own when maneuvering against German fighters, often being able to turn inside their Fw 190 and Bf 109 opponents.

The large size of the P-38 was both an advantage and a disadvantage in combat. The P-38 was quite large for a fighter, and Luftwaffe pilots could usually spot the Lockheed fighter at much larger distances than they could Allied single-engined fighters which were appreciably smaller. In addition, the twin-boomed configuration of the P-38 made it instantly recognizable to the enemy. However, this ease of recognition was not always a disadvantage--P-38s would often feel free to pursue Luftwaffe fighters right through Allied bomber formations with little fear of receiving friendly fire from the gunners.

The Allison engines of the Lightnings proved to be somewhat temperamental, with engine failures actually causing more problems than enemy action. It is estimated that every Lightning in England changed its engines at least once. Nevertheless, the ability of the Lightning to return home on one engine was exceptional and saved the life of the pilot of many a wounded Lightning. Experienced pilots could handle the Lightning satisfactorily at high altitude, but too many of the Eighth Air Force pilots did not have the training or experience to equip them for flying this temperamentally-powered aircraft in combat.

The powerplant problems were not entirely the Allison engine's fault. Many of the reliability problems were actually due to the inadequate cooling system, in particular the cumbersome plumbing of the turbosupercharger intercooler ducting which directed air all way from the supercharger out to the wingtips and back. In addition, the lack of cowl flaps were a problem. In the European theatre of operation, temperatures at altitude were often less than 40 degrees below zero and the Lightning's engines would never get warmed up enough for the oil to be able to flow adequately. Octane and lead would separate out of the fuel at these low temperatures, causing the Allisons to eat valves with regularity, to backfire through the intercooler ducts, and to throw rods, sometimes causing the engine to catch fire.

These problems bedeviled the Lightnings until the advent of the J version with its simplified intercooler ducting and the relocation of the oil cooler to a chin position underneath the propeller spinner. When the P-38J reached the field, the Allison engine was finally able to attain its full rated power at altitude, and the engine failure rate began to go down.

Earlier Lightnings had problems with high-speed dives. When the airspeed reached a sufficiently high value, the controls would suddenly lock up and the Lightning would tuck its nose down, making recovery from the dive difficult. In the worst case, the wings of the Lightning could be ripped off if the speed got too high. This problem caused the Lightning often to be unable to follow its Luftwaffe opponents in a dive, causing many of the enemy to be able to escape unscathed. The problem was eventually traced to the formation of a shock wave over the wing as the Lightning reached transonic speeds, this shock wave causing the elevator to lose much of its effectiveness. The problem was not cured until the advent of the P-38J-25-LO, which introduced a set of compressibility flaps under the wing which changed the pattern of the shock wave over the wing when they were extended, restoring the function of the elevator.

The P-38J version of the Lightning cured many of the ills that had been suffered by the earlier versions of the Lockheed fighter, producing a truly world-class fighter which could mix it up with virtually any other fighter in the world.

In April 1944, the Lightnings of the 20th Fighter Group began low level fighter sweeps over the Continent. That same month, the 55th Fighter Group used the "Droop Snoot" P-38J for the first time as a leader for other Lightnings in a bombing raid on the Coulommiers airfield. Both types of operations proved successful, and these techniques were later used extensively by P-38s of the Ninth Air Force.

The P-38s of the Eighth Air Force were rapidly phased out of service in favor of P-51 Mustangs--The 20th, 55th, and 364th Fighter Groups converted to P-51s during July 1944, and in September the 479th Fighter Group traded in its P-38Js for P-51Ds.

The Ninth Air Force was assigned a tactical role (in contrast to the strategic role of the Eighth Air Force), and retained its P-38J/L fighters a bit longer. Its first Lightning group was the 474th, which flew its first combat mission on April 15, 1944. It was soon joined by the 367th and 370th Fighter Groups. However, in March of 1945 these two latter groups converted to P-47Ds and P-51Ds respectively. By V-E day the 474th was the only Fighter Group still operating P-38s.

More than one in eight Lightnings were either completed by Lockheed as photographic-reconnaissance aircraft or were so modified after delivery. Over 1400 F-5 and F-5 aircraft were delivered to the USAAF. Photographic Lightnings saw widespread service throughout the war. F-4s were first flown in combat beginning in November 1942. They were operated initially by the 5th and 12th Photographic Reconnaissance Squadrons. Later, these units and two other squadrons of the 3rd Photographic Reconnaissance Group operated various versions of the F-5. In the North African theatre, the 154th Reconnaissance Squadron obtained its photographic Lightnings when its maintenance personnel modified a number of P-38Fs in the field. The F-5-equipped 5th Photographic Reconnaissance Group was initially assigned to the Twelfth Air Force and became operational in September 1943. However it was transferred to the Fifteenth Air Force thirteen months later. In the European theatre, where the 3rd PRG had briefly been based before transfer to North Africa, the first operational sorties by photographic Lightnings was flown by F-4As of the 7th PRG on March 28, 1943. This group successively operated F-4As, F-5As, F-5Bs, F-5Cs, and finally, during the last year of the war, F-5Es. Operating initially from bases in England but later moving to the Continent, the Ninth Air Force had for Photographic Reconnaissance squadrons (the 30th, 32st, 33rd, and 34th), which flew various versions of the F-5 from the spring of 1944 until the end of the war.

The F-4/F-5s usually flew alone without fighter escort and in spite of heavy losses, especially when facing radar-controlled Luftwaffe fighters, they proved to be of unequalled value.

The Forces Aeriennes Francaises Libres also received photographic Lightnings. They operated as an attached squadron with the 3rd PRG of the Twelfth Air Force. One of their pilots was the well-known author Antoine de Saint-Exupery, who was lost off southern France on July 31, 1944 while on a combat sortie.

Sources:

Lockheed Aircraft Since 1913, Rene J. Francillon, Naval Institute Press, 1987

The P-38J-M Lockheed Lightning, Profile Publications, Le Roy Weber Profile Publications, Ltd, 1965.

War Planes of the Second World War, Fighters, Volume Four, William Green, Doubleday, 1964.

Famous Fighters of the Second World War, William Green, Doubleday, 1967.

The American Fighter, Enzo Anguluci and Peter Bowers, Orion Books, 1987.

Wings of the Weird and Wonderful, Captain Eric Brown, Airlife, 1985.

United States Military Aircraft since 1909, Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, Smithsonian Institution Press, 1989.

Link Posted: 7/28/2015 12:30:49 PM EDT
[#18]

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My ass would be firmly seated in a Hawker Tempest, thank you very much.
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Great ground fighter, but I'd not want to be at altitude in one. I'd pick the Spitfire mkXIV for all around badassness.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 12:42:11 PM EDT
[#19]

My grandfather flew both P-38J's and P-51D's with the 384th FS/364th FG out of Honnington, England.  He few 88 missions, including D-Day, Market-Garden and many trips to Berlin.  He was credited with one kill of a -109.  He liked the -38J because of the twin engines.  Other than that he preferred the Mustang.  Said it was overall just a better plane to fly.  He said the elevator locking up in the early -38J's was always a concern and really hampered chasing the LW down through the bomber box.  He believed they could be much more aggressive in the -51D's.














Link Posted: 7/28/2015 12:47:59 PM EDT
[#20]
P51s did shoot down ME262 in WWII and MIGS in Korea.....

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 12:56:37 PM EDT
[#21]
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P51s did shoot down ME262 in WWII and MIGS in Korea.....

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True, but P51s would shoot down 262s on landing approach.

P51 could grease an F15 on landing approach.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 1:07:10 PM EDT
[#22]
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There is one at the Udvar Hazy annex of the Air and Space Museum,look to the left under the Lysander. If memory serves,Dick Bong flew this plane and landed it with one engine


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/mossie500/ACBE6B82-5D94-4394-A6AA-EE193678091A-5439-000002B64CD109C9_zps789c66db.jpg
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Do any P-61s still exist?

I don't recall ever seeing one in a museum.




There is one at the Udvar Hazy annex of the Air and Space Museum,look to the left under the Lysander. If memory serves,Dick Bong flew this plane and landed it with one engine


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/mossie500/ACBE6B82-5D94-4394-A6AA-EE193678091A-5439-000002B64CD109C9_zps789c66db.jpg



What a great addition to the Smithsonian.   The Udvar Hazy is amazing and one of my favorite.   Since it's not on the mall itself it's a little bit better as most tourist really have to want to see it to go.   Makes it great for the locals. Fuck they have the Eola Gay and space shuttle discovery, the Black bird  they even have a Donner (last one I belive)   Yea that place is amazing.   I fully recommend anyone going to DC to take the drive to see it.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 1:16:50 PM EDT
[#23]
I wonder if Corsairs or Mustangs won in the '69 Futbol War.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_War
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 1:23:48 PM EDT
[#24]


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Ok, some but not many and they were mostly in North Africa and didn't fare as well against the Germans as it did against the Japanese. They saw very limited use and I have never heard of a Me262 Vs P-38 match up.


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Just stop talking. The P-38 for a time was the best long range fighter we had in the ETO and MTO. They flew plenty of them in Europe.




 
 
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 1:33:29 PM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:




There is one at the Udvar Hazy annex of the Air and Space Museum,look to the left under the Lysander. If memory serves,Dick Bong flew this plane and landed it with one engine


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/mossie500/ACBE6B82-5D94-4394-A6AA-EE193678091A-5439-000002B64CD109C9_zps789c66db.jpg
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Do any P-61s still exist?

I don't recall ever seeing one in a museum.




There is one at the Udvar Hazy annex of the Air and Space Museum,look to the left under the Lysander. If memory serves,Dick Bong flew this plane and landed it with one engine


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/mossie500/ACBE6B82-5D94-4394-A6AA-EE193678091A-5439-000002B64CD109C9_zps789c66db.jpg

Here's a better shot of that same P61, behind the Hurricane.

Link Posted: 7/28/2015 1:37:51 PM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:
Do any P-61s still exist?

I don't recall ever seeing one in a museum.
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Saw one at the Smithsonian Museum at Dulles just a couple of weeks ago.  Really cool looking, but it was so-so in most catagories.  That was one of the reasons that so few were made.  It just wasn't good enough soon enough.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 1:51:03 PM EDT
[#27]
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Quoted:
My grandfather flew both P-38J's and P-51D's with the 384th FS/364th FG out of Honnington, England.  He few 88 missions, including D-Day, Market-Garden and many trips to Berlin.  He was credited with one kill of a -109.  He liked the -38J because of the twin engines.  Other than that he preferred the Mustang.  Said it was overall just a better plane to fly.  He said the elevator locking up in the early -38J's was always a concern and really hampered chasing the LW down through the bomber box.  He believed they could be much more aggressive in the -51D's.


http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/364g/williams.jpg


http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc426/jlheard3/94540422.jpg


http://www.littlefriends.co.uk/gallery/364g/5y-wbar.jpg





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Too cool!!!
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 2:00:16 PM EDT
[#28]

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Quoted:





Here's a better shot of that same P61, behind the Hurricane.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j375/pappyjohn/Air%20and%20Space%20Museum/hurricane.jpg

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Quoted:


Quoted:

Do any P-61s still exist?



I don't recall ever seeing one in a museum.

There is one at the Udvar Hazy annex of the Air and Space Museum,look to the left under the Lysander. If memory serves,Dick Bong flew this plane and landed it with one engine





http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/mossie500/ACBE6B82-5D94-4394-A6AA-EE193678091A-5439-000002B64CD109C9_zps789c66db.jpg


Here's a better shot of that same P61, behind the Hurricane.

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j375/pappyjohn/Air%20and%20Space%20Museum/hurricane.jpg





 
Dayton AF Museum has a P61, too.





Link Posted: 7/28/2015 2:01:22 PM EDT
[#29]
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Choke yourself! P38 was pacific theater so what the hell was a German plane doing with the Japanese?
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ME 262.  



I thought the 262 was really more of a bomber interceptor rather than an air superiority fighter.


Yet it killed plenty of P38/47/51



Choke yourself! P38 was pacific theater so what the hell was a German plane doing with the Japanese?


LOL

Before the P51 the P38 was the only long range escort the USAAF had in Europe and was used in great numbers.

Why do you think the Germans called them "Gabelschwanzteufel"???

Which I have been told by a former Luftwaffe pilot is not really true.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 2:04:23 PM EDT
[#30]
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 2:05:52 PM EDT
[#31]
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Don't know if it was true, but read somewhere that whenever a German got a kill, all Luftwaffe pilots in the vicinity got credit for a full kill also.
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German pilots had lots and lots of Russian and Polish aerial kills.  Lot's of inferior biplanes were chalked up in those German kill tallies.


Don't know if it was true, but read somewhere that whenever a German got a kill, all Luftwaffe pilots in the vicinity got credit for a full kill also.


LOL

No, they actually had a very strict conformation system. More strict that ours. Victory claims by bomber crews were so inflated, the entire Luftwaffe would have cased to exist by early 1944 if the claims were correct.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 2:06:31 PM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:

Doesn't change the fact that the 61 would smoke it, several of his friends, and whatever bombers he was escorting without even working up a sweat. Also, as I said, "if you had them meet at 10k feet over the desert at midnite".
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The problem with picking American planes as the best in WW2 is that we came in so late other planes already had hundreds of kills, and some would say we were fighting the dregs and newbs by that point.

In any event, the best plane we ever built was the P-61 not 51. The Mustang was garbage compared to the Black Widow and if you had them meet at 10k feet over the desert at midnite the P-51 would lose 9 out 10 fights.


http://www.histoiredumonde.net/images/20_eme_siecle/avions/p61/intro.jpg
ETA- The mustang didn't even have a giant radio/radar compartment! lol!
http://www.warbirdsnews.com/wp-content/uploads/P-61-radio-Compartment.jpg

706 P-61s built compared to 15,000 P-51s. The P-61 was a radar based night interceptor. You are comparing apples to oranges  
 

Doesn't change the fact that the 61 would smoke it, several of his friends, and whatever bombers he was escorting without even working up a sweat. Also, as I said, "if you had them meet at 10k feet over the desert at midnite".


The Black Widow was not a fighter, it was an interceptor, it was used to shoot down enemy bombers as they crossed the distance from runway to target during hours of low vis. The Japanese would time their attacks to be over the allied bombing target at dawn, meaning US fighters could only engage them for a short period before bombs were dropped. The Black Widow's radar allowed the US to intercept the bombers long before they entered friendly airspace. And even in that role it wasn't all that great at it.

In WWII, no one was dogfighting or even attempting to gain air during low vis. Not the P-61 nor anything else.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 2:29:23 PM EDT
[#33]
Nope the P/F82 would have ruled the day... A twined Mustang and it was built before the end of the war but none made it to battle. It was faster and had longer legs than anything else out there except jets.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 2:31:50 PM EDT
[#34]
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Do any P-61s still exist?

I don't recall ever seeing one in a museum.
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There are four left, in various states of intact-ness.  One at Wright-Patterson, one at the Smithsonian, one in China (allegedly), and one under restoration to flyable condition at the Mid-Atlantic Air Museum.  I have a chunk of its original gondola skin on my wall.

EDIT: The Smithsonian and Wright-Patterson P-61s are post-war P-61Cs that did not see combat use.  The Chinese-possessed (I refuse to call it "owned", they frakking stole it at gunpoint) airframe is a very deteriorated B model that is probably on the verge of collapse.

The MAAM's airframe is a combat vet B.  If there are any A models left, they're wrecks and nobody knows where they are.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 2:42:08 PM EDT
[#35]
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There are four left, in various states of intact-ness.  One at Wright-Patterson, one at the Smithsonian, one in China (allegedly), and one under restoration to flyable condition at the Mid-Atlantic Air Museum.  I have a chunk of its original gondola skin on my wall.

EDIT: The Smithsonian and Wright-Patterson P-61s are post-war P-61Cs that did not see combat use.  The Chinese-possessed (I refuse to call it "owned", they frakking stole it at gunpoint) airframe is a very deteriorated B model that is probably on the verge of collapse.

The MAAM's airframe is a combat vet B.  If there are any A models left, they're wrecks and nobody knows where they are.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Do any P-61s still exist?

I don't recall ever seeing one in a museum.


There are four left, in various states of intact-ness.  One at Wright-Patterson, one at the Smithsonian, one in China (allegedly), and one under restoration to flyable condition at the Mid-Atlantic Air Museum.  I have a chunk of its original gondola skin on my wall.

EDIT: The Smithsonian and Wright-Patterson P-61s are post-war P-61Cs that did not see combat use.  The Chinese-possessed (I refuse to call it "owned", they frakking stole it at gunpoint) airframe is a very deteriorated B model that is probably on the verge of collapse.

The MAAM's airframe is a combat vet B.  If there are any A models left, they're wrecks and nobody knows where they are.


The "allegedly" part is that the Chinese have offered two others they claim to have in storage up for sale at $2 million each.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 2:46:15 PM EDT
[#36]
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Quoted:



Choke yourself! P38 was pacific theater so what the hell was a German plane doing with the Japanese?
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ME 262.  



I thought the 262 was really more of a bomber interceptor rather than an air superiority fighter.


Yet it killed plenty of P38/47/51



Choke yourself! P38 was pacific theater so what the hell was a German plane doing with the Japanese?


You better go read some history. The P-38 did fight in Europe.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 2:49:17 PM EDT
[#37]
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Quoted:


Don't know if it was true, but read somewhere that whenever a German got a kill, all Luftwaffe pilots in the vicinity got credit for a full kill also.
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Quoted:
German pilots had lots and lots of Russian and Polish aerial kills.  Lot's of inferior biplanes were chalked up in those German kill tallies.


Don't know if it was true, but read somewhere that whenever a German got a kill, all Luftwaffe pilots in the vicinity got credit for a full kill also.


Nope
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 2:50:29 PM EDT
[#38]
Hey.  Whatever happened to the P-38 the Confederate Air Force used to fly?  It was painted red, white, and blue and was missing its turbos but it used to fly around in the 1980s.

ETA: Speaking of the CAF, check out the old roundels they used to use:



ETA: Found it.  Crashed in 2001 and was sold to Red Bull and is flying again:





Link Posted: 7/28/2015 2:51:43 PM EDT
[#39]
My dad flew both in the Pacific Theater.  He preferred the Jug for it sturdiness, ability to absorb damage, and he said it would out dive anything flying allowing him to  break off combat at will.

He did pretty well, and survived.

Link Posted: 7/28/2015 3:10:15 PM EDT
[#40]
If the money that was thrown at fixing the P-51 had been applied to the P-47 the war would have ended at about the same time. Late in the war a P-47 was a match for anything flying including the p-51. The J models were faster too. The P-47j held the piston engine speed record till 1986 (correct me if I missed the date).
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 3:12:31 PM EDT
[#41]
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My dad flew both in the Pacific Theater.  He preferred the Jug for it sturdiness, ability to absorb damage, and he said it would out dive anything flying allowing him to  break off combat at will.

He did pretty well, and survived.

http://s24.postimg.org/o7mb5m6s5/348th_08.jpg
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Care to share any stories?  
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 3:13:23 PM EDT
[#42]

Messerschmitt Me262
nicht dieses war die überlegene Kämpfer
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 3:25:31 PM EDT
[#43]
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Quoted:

Care to share any stories?  
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My dad flew both in the Pacific Theater.  He preferred the Jug for it sturdiness, ability to absorb damage, and he said it would out dive anything flying allowing him to  break off combat at will.

He did pretty well, and survived.

http://s24.postimg.org/o7mb5m6s5/348th_08.jpg

Care to share any stories?  


Here's one, and of course it's hearsay.  After the dropping of the second bomb, which my dad witnessed while flying combat patrol from a distance of 135 miles, he knew the war was over.  So good guy that he was, and being the Group Commander, he loaded up all the guys he had never allowed in to the air into his hack (a B25), including the the flight surgeon and staff, the weather guys, etc., and took off for a flying tour of Nagasaki.  When he got there he was witness to what he called the greatest flying armada he'd ever seen, scores of USAAF planes slowly circling the still smoldering ruins.  I'd asked him, "Dad, did you get any photos?"  His response was, "Are you kidding?  I was busy flying the plane, trying not to get into a collision with some idiot!  Other guys did, though."

In the late eighties and nineties, I got in the habit of going with him to his various reunions.  Maybe about the year 2000 or so, I sat next to one of the guys that was on that flight, and he had with him a folder full of photos he'd taken that day.  

It was fascinating . . .

He passed away in 2009.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 3:35:42 PM EDT
[#44]
I spent a great amount of time from 2004-2009 working on stand alone versions of CFS3. While IL2 was a better game CFS3 had more realistic flight models.
I worked with guys from all over the world building a Korean War version and a Mediterranean war version of the western ETO original.
I also made many versions of Battle of Britain missions sets based on actual air battles.

So, when I say I was never a Spitfire fan and have to admit there is nothing like a Spitfire it is because well, nothing flies like a Spit.
Tang pilots used to say “We can’t do everything a Spitfire can do but we can do it over Berlin."

The bf109 was the equal to the Spitfire but was not an easy plane to be good in. By the time of BoB the German pilots were at the top of their game and so were flying the 109 well but the RAF was far from ready for BoB.
What really saved their butts was the Spitfire and the real hero of BoB the Hawker Hurricane were very easy planes to fly. A mediocre pilot could fight near equally to a superb Luftwaffe ace by virtue of the ease in which a Cane of Spit could be flown.

Building and flying the missions of both the Luftwaffe and RAF pilots was a real pleasure and it changed every concept I had from just reading about it.
This is also true about many other aircraft.
What is often important is what matters at the critical now moment and the advantage can shift on more than the head to head we seem to think occurs as if air battles are like a prize fight with a starting bell.

The Me262 was no fun to fly. It simply can not turn. Fly it like a dog fighter and you die fast (In flight sims you reset)
As mentioned come in fast line up (or not more often) a target and get out. No turns no fuss. Plus, try turning hard and the wings come off, not a good thing..

Hartmann dueled 12 P51s by himself. He shot down 5 until he ran out of ammo and they never got a hit on him before he ran out of fuel and bailed out.
He shot down 7 P51s total and this myth the Russians had biplanes and poor pilots is simply untrue. They had excellent aircraft and well trained pilots
IMO the best flying prop planes best as I could experience were the Spitfire MKXIV and the FW190D9 but the Spit had no range and the 190D9s were relegated to protecting ME262 bases from, you guessed it, P51s.

Still it was more about the pilot, the situation he was in and luck.
Hartmann learned quickly a dog fighter was like playing dice.
No matter how good you were bad luck would find you sooner or later.
He became an assassin.
He stated most of his kills came when the enemy had no idea he was behind him until he went down in flames.

I sometime crank up the old sim and fly a few missions but while it is easy enough to get back into a Spit or Hurricane I simply can not fy a 109 unless I spend many hours relearning the fine edge of how it works. Just not an easy curve. More 109s were destroyed on take offs and landings than by enemy action. Even in a sim it is not easy to taxi with that bird but what a great engine

The P51 was a great fighter. It was good enough to fight any Axis fighter and had the range to be were it needed to be. It was that range that made it one of the most important fighters of WWII but unlike other fighters (the P38) it not only could get there and fight it could do it as good as anything sent up against it.
If you have never heard one taking off and one day you do prepare to be excited far more than you can ever imagine when you hear that bird take flight.

Link Posted: 7/28/2015 3:46:13 PM EDT
[#45]
With so many different environments and types of Axis power aircraft, and so much development going on, I'd think it would very difficult to pick a "best of the war".

The performance levels of the aircraft increased so much (biplanes to jets) over such a short time, that you need to pick a specific time and place...



You could say, "best in Europe in March 1944",  or "best in the pacific in January 1945",...
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 3:56:14 PM EDT
[#46]

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...



Still it was more about the pilot, the situation he was in and luck.

Hartmann learned quickly a dog fighter was like playing dice.

No matter how good you were bad luck would find you sooner or later.

He became an assassin.

He stated most of his kills came when the enemy had no idea he was behind him until he went down in flames.

.....


View Quote


In WW1, the Red Baron, Baron von Richthofen,  reportedly fought the same way. He would stalk around the edges of a dog fight, and catch folks unaware.



 
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 4:02:14 PM EDT
[#47]
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Quoted:

  Hartman was also very aggressive to get those kills too. He was a point black shooter and had a number of crash landings because of damage his plane took from the plane he just shot down. I think he had over 1400 sorties or something ridiculous like that.
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German pilots had lots and lots of Russian and Polish aerial kills.  Lot's of inferior biplanes were chalked up in those German kill tallies.


Don't know if it was true, but read somewhere that whenever a German got a kill, all Luftwaffe pilots in the vicinity got credit for a full kill also.



Untrue.  German confirmation requirements were basically the same as ours.  What skews the numbers for German pilots is their operational practices.  In the allies, a good pilot would do his tour then go home and train other pilots.  In the Luftwaffe you flew until you died or the war ended.  We had enough pilots that we could rotate back to the states.  The Germans didn't have that luxury.  Hartman flew basically non-stop for three years.  That would have been unheard of in the USAAF or the RAF for that matter.

  Hartman was also very aggressive to get those kills too. He was a point black shooter and had a number of crash landings because of damage his plane took from the plane he just shot down. I think he had over 1400 sorties or something ridiculous like that.

The Russian IL 2 pilots were absolute shit and used shit tactics.  Most of his kills were IL 2's.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 4:02:20 PM EDT
[#48]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:





In WW1, the Red Baron, Baron von Richthofen,  reportedly fought the same way. He would stalk around the edges of a dog fight, and catch folks unaware.

 
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Quoted:

...



Still it was more about the pilot, the situation he was in and luck.

Hartmann learned quickly a dog fighter was like playing dice.

No matter how good you were bad luck would find you sooner or later.

He became an assassin.

He stated most of his kills came when the enemy had no idea he was behind him until he went down in flames.

.....




In WW1, the Red Baron, Baron von Richthofen,  reportedly fought the same way. He would stalk around the edges of a dog fight, and catch folks unaware.

 

That's how I play World of Warships.





 
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 4:03:30 PM EDT
[#49]
Number are numbers:
I cut this from another site,
That has several answers. My answers come only from kills by American fighters flown in US service.

1) In any single theater of operations, the top would be the F6F Hellcat, with 5,168 kills in the Pacific Theater of Operations. Next would the P-51 Mustang with 4,950 kills in the European Theater of Operations.

2) For the entire war combined, all theaters, it would be the P-51 Mustang with 5,954 kills in ETO, MTO, PTO, and CBI all combined, followed by the Hellcat with 5,168 in PTO and ETO.

These numbers come from a 1945-1946 report compiled by the US Navy for the Hellcat and the Air Force Historical Society for the P-51.

Since the war, there have been several "revisions" of kills .... sadly. They should let them stand as approved in the conflict of interest, by people in the service at the time. Just my opinion.

Either way, the Hellcat and Mustang are neck in neck for the title.

The third-ranking fighter for kills was the P-38, with 3,785 in all Theaters of operation combined. The theater of operations with the most enemy aircraft shot down was the PTO, with 12,666 enemy aircraft shot down.
Link Posted: 7/28/2015 5:45:31 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Choke yourself! P38 was pacific theater so what the hell was a German plane doing with the Japanese?
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ME 262.  



I thought the 262 was really more of a bomber interceptor rather than an air superiority fighter.


Yet it killed plenty of P38/47/51



Choke yourself! P38 was pacific theater so what the hell was a German plane doing with the Japanese?


Dude. Really? The P-38 was used as the original long-ish range bomber escort in the ETO but they had problems with the superchargers freezing at altitude so the focus was shifted to the Pacific.

F4F Wildcats were used in ETO, too. Betcha didn't know that.

TC
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