Millions of people lived and died never knowing about the correct God. What happened to them? - Page 71

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Millions of people lived and died never knowing about the correct God. What happened to them? (Page 71 of 91)

Posted: 8/29/2015 5:12:53 PM EDT

[#1]

Quote History

Quoted:

Here are the some of the so-called "lies" ...

1.) I stated that the term "another testament of Jesus Christ" proved that the BOM was false because no other testament could ever come into play because Jesus died ONCE for sinners, never to die again. That took care of "testaments" because, as Jesus said (and we all know it's true) no testament comes into force without the death of the testator. The Bible says that the covenant that was established with Jesus' death is the ETERNAL COVENANT.

Extractr called me a liar for stating the above. He argued that Mormonism holds that "testament" in "another testament of Jesus Christ" doesn't mean "testament" in the sense that I described (and my used matched Jesus' use) or a new covenant - which would mean the same thing - but was only used to mean something to the effect of, "we're telling more of the story."

I then quoted the Mormon D&C where it specifically states that the BOM is a NEW COVENANT.

But I am the liar, you see.

2.) I stated that "Heavenly Father is a sinner. Extractr called me a liar again. I then quoted Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt, who said exactly that. Extractr said Pratt was excommunicated (and he was, because Joseph Smith tried to seduce his wife and Pratt didn't take a liking to it). Of course Extractr didn't mention the reason, nor did he mention that Pratt was reinstated as a Mormon, and not only that, was reinstated as an apostle of the church. Some of his writings were disavowed, but Extractr could not prove that Pratt's statement about Mormon gods being sinners was disavowed. Which makes sense since Mormonism teaches that the sinners of today can become gods of tomorrow.

But I am the liar you see.

3.) Along those lines, and based on responses to posts in this thread I posed the questions... Which planet will get the vulgar god? Which planet will get the flippant god? Which planet will get the irrational god? ...

Kelty then called me a liar because because Mormons who progress to exaltation don't get planets.

I then quoted Brigham Young, who explicitly taught just that. But he didn't use the term "planets" he used the words "worlds" like ours and "earths" like ours. He used those words as synonyms for planet.

But I am the liar, you see.

I could go on. And on. And on. And on.

But I will spare readers. Those three examples should be sufficient to get the idea across.

You can be 100% accurate in description of Mormon doctrine and theology, and if the doctrines and theologies are embarrassing to Mormonism, you very well might be described as a liar.

I know I was.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

You all give as good as you get.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

We have not rolled-over in the face of antagonism, if that is what you mean...

I have caught a small handful of folks outright lying about the beliefs and practices of the LDS Church.

Dogface? Didn't post in the thread until long after the anti's had showed their angst...

Here are the some of the so-called "lies" ...

1.) I stated that the term "another testament of Jesus Christ" proved that the BOM was false because no other testament could ever come into play because Jesus died ONCE for sinners, never to die again. That took care of "testaments" because, as Jesus said (and we all know it's true) no testament comes into force without the death of the testator. The Bible says that the covenant that was established with Jesus' death is the ETERNAL COVENANT.

Extractr called me a liar for stating the above. He argued that Mormonism holds that "testament" in "another testament of Jesus Christ" doesn't mean "testament" in the sense that I described (and my used matched Jesus' use) or a new covenant - which would mean the same thing - but was only used to mean something to the effect of, "we're telling more of the story."

I then quoted the Mormon D&C where it specifically states that the BOM is a NEW COVENANT.

But I am the liar, you see.

2.) I stated that "Heavenly Father is a sinner. Extractr called me a liar again. I then quoted Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt, who said exactly that. Extractr said Pratt was excommunicated (and he was, because Joseph Smith tried to seduce his wife and Pratt didn't take a liking to it). Of course Extractr didn't mention the reason, nor did he mention that Pratt was reinstated as a Mormon, and not only that, was reinstated as an apostle of the church. Some of his writings were disavowed, but Extractr could not prove that Pratt's statement about Mormon gods being sinners was disavowed. Which makes sense since Mormonism teaches that the sinners of today can become gods of tomorrow.

But I am the liar you see.

3.) Along those lines, and based on responses to posts in this thread I posed the questions... Which planet will get the vulgar god? Which planet will get the flippant god? Which planet will get the irrational god? ...

Kelty then called me a liar because because Mormons who progress to exaltation don't get planets.

I then quoted Brigham Young, who explicitly taught just that. But he didn't use the term "planets" he used the words "worlds" like ours and "earths" like ours. He used those words as synonyms for planet.

But I am the liar, you see.

I could go on. And on. And on. And on.

But I will spare readers. Those three examples should be sufficient to get the idea across.

You can be 100% accurate in description of Mormon doctrine and theology, and if the doctrines and theologies are embarrassing to Mormonism, you very well might be described as a liar.

I know I was.

Yup, if you counter the lies they have swallowed, they call you a liar. If you point out their false beliefs, they call you an antagonist.

Funny stuff, if it were not so deadly serious. Sad they have been enveloped by a cult, but it happens to millions every year.

Posted: 8/29/2015 8:18:10 PM EDT

[#2]

Quote History

Quoted:

Here are the some of the so-called "lies" ...

1.) I stated that the term "another testament of Jesus Christ" proved that the BOM was false because no other testament could ever come into play because Jesus died ONCE for sinners, never to die again. That took care of "testaments" because, as Jesus said (and we all know it's true) no testament comes into force without the death of the testator. The Bible says that the covenant that was established with Jesus' death is the ETERNAL COVENANT.

Extractr called me a liar for stating the above. He argued that Mormonism holds that "testament" in "another testament of Jesus Christ" doesn't mean "testament" in the sense that I described (and my used matched Jesus' use) or a new covenant - which would mean the same thing - but was only used to mean something to the effect of, "we're telling more of the story."

You claimed the meaning of testament on the front of the Book meant covenant, and I showed you where the church stated the meaning of the word "testament" very clearly, but you keep up the lie and ignore it. The D&C referring to covenent is completely unrelated to the title. You're simply trying to shift the goal posts.

Here is what the title means. Of course you will ignore it and keep up the lie.

http://www.ldschurchnewsarchive.com/articles/18317/Another-testament-of-Savior--The-Book-of-Mormon-bears-witness-that-Jesus-is-the-Christ.html

" Two of the major purposes of the Book of Mormon are found on its title page, written by Moroni before he hid up this sacred record "unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile."

Moroni explained that it was an abridgment of records written to the Lamanites, Jews and Gentiles. Then he gave the following reasons for the coming forth of the Book of Mormon:-To show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever.

-To the convincing the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations.

The importance the Church places on the latter purpose has been emphasized with the addition in 1982 of the book's subtitle-- Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

LDS scholar Daniel H. Ludlow, director of Correlation Review for the Church, said in a new cassette tape, titled "Getting the Most Out of the Book of Mormon" that he had always described the Book of Mormon as a witness of the Savior. But upon examining the roots of the word "testament," he became convinced that use of the word was divinely inspired.

He discovered that the concepts of testimony, witness, and covenant make up the roots of the word testament. The Book of Mormon stands with the Bible as a witness of Christ, it testifies of Christ and His mission and includes the covenants the Lord has made with the house of Israel.

I then quoted the Mormon D&C where it specifically states that the BOM is a NEW COVENANT.

But I am the liar, you see. You admit it. Good. That is the first step.

2.) I stated that "Heavenly Father is a sinner. Extractr called me a liar again. I then quoted Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt, who said exactly that. Extractr said Pratt was excommunicated (and he was, because Joseph Smith tried to seduce his wife and Pratt didn't take a liking to it). Of course Extractr didn't mention the reason, nor did he mention that Pratt was reinstated as a Mormon, and not only that, was reinstated as an apostle of the church. Some of his writings were disavowed, but Extractr could not prove that Pratt's statement about Mormon gods being sinners was disavowed. Which makes sense since Mormonism teaches that the sinners of today can become gods of tomorrow.

This is one of your continued lies. I proved very clearly Pratt's statement was disavowed. Where was his statement written? Need a little help? It was written in the publication "The Seer". The church disowned the entire publication, not just some parts.

The Churches statement on The Seer:

"But the Seer [and some of his other writings]...contain doctrines which we cannot sanction, and which we have felt impressed to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works, or parts of works, are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed; with proper care this can be done without much, if any, injury to the volumes.
It ought to have been known, years ago, by every person in the Church — for ample teachings have been given on the point — that no member of the Church has the right to publish any doctrines, as the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, without first submitting them for examination and approval to the First Presidency and the Twelve. There is but one man upon the earth, at one time, who holds the keys to receive commandments and revelations for the Church, and who has the authority to write doctrines by way of commandment unto the Church. And any man who so far forgets the order instituted by the Lord as to write and publish what may be termed new doctrines, without consulting with the First Presidency of the Church respecting them, places himself in a false position, and exposes himself to the power of darkness by violating his Priesthood.

So yes. All of the writings, including the quote you are pushing was disowned.

Pratt's response to this:

TO THE SAINTS IN ALL THE WORLD.
DEAR BRETHREN, — Permit me to draw your attention to the proclamation of the First Presidency and Twelve, published in the DESERET NEWS, and copied into the MILLENNIAL STAR of the 21st inst., in which several publications that have issued from my pen are considered objectionable. I, therefore, embrace the present opportunity of publicly expressing my most sincere regret, that I have ever published the least thing which meets with the disapprobation of the highest authorities of the Church; and I do most cordially join with them in the request, that you should make such dispositions of the publications alluded to, as counselled in their proclamation.

Is that big enough for you to see this time. See your lie now. There were no minced words there. He disowned The SEER and your quote.
You keep trying to claim what he disowned, as truth. You say, "well parts of it are still valid." No they are not. He disowned all of his writings in the Seer, as well as others.

But I am the liar you see. We see.

3.) Along those lines, and based on responses to posts in this thread I posed the questions... Which planet will get the vulgar god? Which planet will get the flippant god? Which planet will get the irrational god? ...

Kelty then called me a liar because because Mormons who progress to exaltation don't get planets.

I then quoted Brigham Young, who explicitly taught just that. But he didn't use the term "planets" he used the words "worlds" like ours and "earths" like ours. He used those words as synonyms for planet.

But I am the liar, you see.

Yes, another one of your "verbatim" quotes that you are so famous for that just happen to not be verbatim. We know, you intend to lie and deceive by switching it up and spinning it.

I could go on. And on. And on. And on. You do. The lies never end.

But I will spare readers. Those three examples should be sufficient to get the idea across.

You can be We are about 10% accurate in description of Mormon doctrine and theology, and if the doctrines and theologies are embarrassing to Mormonism, you very well might be can see why I am described as a liar.
FIFY
I know I was.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

You all give as good as you get.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

We have not rolled-over in the face of antagonism, if that is what you mean...

I have caught a small handful of folks outright lying about the beliefs and practices of the LDS Church.

Dogface? Didn't post in the thread until long after the anti's had showed their angst...

Here are the some of the so-called "lies" ...

1.) I stated that the term "another testament of Jesus Christ" proved that the BOM was false because no other testament could ever come into play because Jesus died ONCE for sinners, never to die again. That took care of "testaments" because, as Jesus said (and we all know it's true) no testament comes into force without the death of the testator. The Bible says that the covenant that was established with Jesus' death is the ETERNAL COVENANT.

Extractr called me a liar for stating the above. He argued that Mormonism holds that "testament" in "another testament of Jesus Christ" doesn't mean "testament" in the sense that I described (and my used matched Jesus' use) or a new covenant - which would mean the same thing - but was only used to mean something to the effect of, "we're telling more of the story."

You claimed the meaning of testament on the front of the Book meant covenant, and I showed you where the church stated the meaning of the word "testament" very clearly, but you keep up the lie and ignore it. The D&C referring to covenent is completely unrelated to the title. You're simply trying to shift the goal posts.

Here is what the title means. Of course you will ignore it and keep up the lie.

http://www.ldschurchnewsarchive.com/articles/18317/Another-testament-of-Savior--The-Book-of-Mormon-bears-witness-that-Jesus-is-the-Christ.html

" Two of the major purposes of the Book of Mormon are found on its title page, written by Moroni before he hid up this sacred record "unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile."

Moroni explained that it was an abridgment of records written to the Lamanites, Jews and Gentiles. Then he gave the following reasons for the coming forth of the Book of Mormon:-To show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever.

-To the convincing the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations.

The importance the Church places on the latter purpose has been emphasized with the addition in 1982 of the book's subtitle-- Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

LDS scholar Daniel H. Ludlow, director of Correlation Review for the Church, said in a new cassette tape, titled "Getting the Most Out of the Book of Mormon" that he had always described the Book of Mormon as a witness of the Savior. But upon examining the roots of the word "testament," he became convinced that use of the word was divinely inspired.

He discovered that the concepts of testimony, witness, and covenant make up the roots of the word testament. The Book of Mormon stands with the Bible as a witness of Christ, it testifies of Christ and His mission and includes the covenants the Lord has made with the house of Israel.

I then quoted the Mormon D&C where it specifically states that the BOM is a NEW COVENANT.

But I am the liar, you see. You admit it. Good. That is the first step.

2.) I stated that "Heavenly Father is a sinner. Extractr called me a liar again. I then quoted Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt, who said exactly that. Extractr said Pratt was excommunicated (and he was, because Joseph Smith tried to seduce his wife and Pratt didn't take a liking to it). Of course Extractr didn't mention the reason, nor did he mention that Pratt was reinstated as a Mormon, and not only that, was reinstated as an apostle of the church. Some of his writings were disavowed, but Extractr could not prove that Pratt's statement about Mormon gods being sinners was disavowed. Which makes sense since Mormonism teaches that the sinners of today can become gods of tomorrow.

This is one of your continued lies. I proved very clearly Pratt's statement was disavowed. Where was his statement written? Need a little help? It was written in the publication "The Seer". The church disowned the entire publication, not just some parts.

The Churches statement on The Seer:

"But the Seer [and some of his other writings]...contain doctrines which we cannot sanction, and which we have felt impressed to disown, so that the Saints who now live, and who may live hereafter, may not be misled by our silence, or be left to misinterpret it. Where these objectionable works, or parts of works, are bound in volumes, or otherwise, they should be cut out and destroyed; with proper care this can be done without much, if any, injury to the volumes.
It ought to have been known, years ago, by every person in the Church — for ample teachings have been given on the point — that no member of the Church has the right to publish any doctrines, as the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, without first submitting them for examination and approval to the First Presidency and the Twelve. There is but one man upon the earth, at one time, who holds the keys to receive commandments and revelations for the Church, and who has the authority to write doctrines by way of commandment unto the Church. And any man who so far forgets the order instituted by the Lord as to write and publish what may be termed new doctrines, without consulting with the First Presidency of the Church respecting them, places himself in a false position, and exposes himself to the power of darkness by violating his Priesthood.

So yes. All of the writings, including the quote you are pushing was disowned.

Pratt's response to this:

TO THE SAINTS IN ALL THE WORLD.
DEAR BRETHREN, — Permit me to draw your attention to the proclamation of the First Presidency and Twelve, published in the DESERET NEWS, and copied into the MILLENNIAL STAR of the 21st inst., in which several publications that have issued from my pen are considered objectionable. I, therefore, embrace the present opportunity of publicly expressing my most sincere regret, that I have ever published the least thing which meets with the disapprobation of the highest authorities of the Church; and I do most cordially join with them in the request, that you should make such dispositions of the publications alluded to, as counselled in their proclamation.

Is that big enough for you to see this time. See your lie now. There were no minced words there. He disowned The SEER and your quote.
You keep trying to claim what he disowned, as truth. You say, "well parts of it are still valid." No they are not. He disowned all of his writings in the Seer, as well as others.

But I am the liar you see. We see.

3.) Along those lines, and based on responses to posts in this thread I posed the questions... Which planet will get the vulgar god? Which planet will get the flippant god? Which planet will get the irrational god? ...

Kelty then called me a liar because because Mormons who progress to exaltation don't get planets.

I then quoted Brigham Young, who explicitly taught just that. But he didn't use the term "planets" he used the words "worlds" like ours and "earths" like ours. He used those words as synonyms for planet.

But I am the liar, you see.

Yes, another one of your "verbatim" quotes that you are so famous for that just happen to not be verbatim. We know, you intend to lie and deceive by switching it up and spinning it.

I could go on. And on. And on. And on. You do. The lies never end.

But I will spare readers. Those three examples should be sufficient to get the idea across.

You can be We are about 10% accurate in description of Mormon doctrine and theology, and if the doctrines and theologies are embarrassing to Mormonism, you very well might be can see why I am described as a liar.
FIFY
I know I was.

Just one of the other lies you were caught in previously as well:

Your exact quote: "your religion told Mormons that anyone who said that Joseph Smith put a rock in his hat and put his face in that hat to translate the BOM was a liar."

You have never shown one source where the church has said that. It is a flat out lie.

I have shown several where the church discusses the rock in the hat in lesson manuals, and where it was published in the official church wide magazine decades ago. The church has never hidden it or called people a liar like you claim.

The only liar is you.

LIEly

Posted: 8/29/2015 8:25:59 PM EDT

[#3]

Quote History

Quoted:

No, I keep quoting the Mormon founder, Mormon apostles and other Mormon leaders.

It appears you have no idea what Mormonism teaches if you do not understand that it holds that

A) God is an exalted man - who is described as being just like you are now in time past and

B) you, like you are right now, can become just like your "God" is now, in the future.

And your statement about Jesus doesn't describe the Biblical Jesus, it describes the Mormon Jesus.

Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh. God the Word - the Lord Jesus Christ - left heaven and came to earth and dwelt in a body of human flesh so God could pay for the sins of men.

Jesus was not a man who "progressed" and became a god.

Men do not "progress" and become gods. Not in Christianity. There is only one God - three persons - one God. Just like one egg is yolk, white and shell. Just like one compound H2O can be vapor, solid or liquid. Just like one human is spirit, soul and body.

And God has always been God, and does not change. He does not "progress." And, again, there is only One. Not dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions, etc.

One God and one God only.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

More of your "verbatim" quotes, that were never actually said?

You keep sayin all these things that we belief and teach. The problem is, you are flat out lying. A second hand error filled account from almost 200 years ago does not define what we believe or teach. Maybe if you studied our actual doctrines and belefs, you would realize that.

Jesus was a man and is now an an exalted God, yet you have no problem with that.

LIEly

No, I keep quoting the Mormon founder, Mormon apostles and other Mormon leaders.

It appears you have no idea what Mormonism teaches if you do not understand that it holds that

A) God is an exalted man - who is described as being just like you are now in time past and

B) you, like you are right now, can become just like your "God" is now, in the future.

And your statement about Jesus doesn't describe the Biblical Jesus, it describes the Mormon Jesus.

Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh. God the Word - the Lord Jesus Christ - left heaven and came to earth and dwelt in a body of human flesh so God could pay for the sins of men.

Jesus was not a man who "progressed" and became a god.

Men do not "progress" and become gods. Not in Christianity. There is only one God - three persons - one God. Just like one egg is yolk, white and shell. Just like one compound H2O can be vapor, solid or liquid. Just like one human is spirit, soul and body.

And God has always been God, and does not change. He does not "progress." And, again, there is only One. Not dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions, etc.

One God and one God only.

You keep quoting people, not doctrine. That is your problem.

I know what Mormonism teaches. The problem is you don't. You think because someone gave a second hard error filled account of what a past leader said almost 200 years ago, we believe and teach that. Show me the last time we taught that. Can you find one instance in the last 40 or 140 years where our church has taught that?

He is not described as "just" like us. he is described as "like us". Christ was like us, but not "just" like us. You are adding your own spin and lies you are so famous for.

LIEly

Posted: 8/29/2015 8:41:28 PM EDT

[#4]

Quote History

Quoted:

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Word = God
Word = Jesus (became flesh)
God = Jesus

John 10:30-33, "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quoted:

Quoted:

More of your "verbatim" quotes, that were never actually said?

You keep sayin all these things that we belief and teach. The problem is, you are flat out lying. A second hand error filled account from almost 200 years ago does not define what we believe or teach. Maybe if you studied our actual doctrines and belefs, you would realize that.

Jesus was a man and is now an an exalted God, yet you have no problem with that.

LIEly

No, I keep quoting the Mormon founder, Mormon apostles and other Mormon leaders.

It appears you have no idea what Mormonism teaches if you do not understand that it holds that

A) God is an exalted man - who is described as being just like you are now in time past and

B) you, like you are right now, can become just like your "God" is now, in the future.

And your statement about Jesus doesn't describe the Biblical Jesus, it describes the Mormon Jesus.

Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh. God the Word - the Lord Jesus Christ - left heaven and came to earth and dwelt in a body of human flesh so God could pay for the sins of men.

Jesus was not a man who "progressed" and became a god.

Men do not "progress" and become gods. Not in Christianity. There is only one God - three persons - one God. Just like one egg is yolk, white and shell. Just like one compound H2O can be vapor, solid or liquid. Just like one human is spirit, soul and body.

And God has always been God, and does not change. He does not "progress." And, again, there is only One. Not dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions, etc.

One God and one God only.

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Word = God
Word = Jesus (became flesh)
God = Jesus

John 10:30-33, "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

And if you look at the Greek for John 1:1,
[T]he first and third "God" in this passage comes from Greek Ho Theos - the God - while the second occurrence was simply Theos.
So this could be rendered, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with The God."

Two separate beings but both Gods.

And if you actually look at the controversy surrounding 1 John 5:7, you will see another big problem. The wording found in the KJV did not exist in Greek manuscripts before 1600, but was added by men later.

A more accurate reading would be:
For there are three that testify
the Spirit, the water, and the blood;
and the three are in agreement.

3 separate individuals.

Due to the errors of men and politically charged councils, doctrine of men has creeped into the Bible. Two of the main and only verses supporting the trinity have very questionable meanings. Interpreted one way, it clearly shows them as 3 separate beings, just as Arius and many others saw them.

Posted: 8/29/2015 8:42:40 PM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:
Yup, if you counter the lies they have swallowed, they call you a liar. If you point out their false beliefs, they call you an antagonist.

Funny stuff, if it were not so deadly serious. Sad they have been enveloped by a cult, but it happens to millions every year.

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Quoted:
Yup, if you counter the lies they have swallowed, they call you a liar. If you point out their false beliefs, they call you an antagonist.

Funny stuff, if it were not so deadly serious. Sad they have been enveloped by a cult, but it happens to millions every year.

You were called an antagonist because of this kind of post...

Quoted:

The only thing special about your cult is that a crack head looked in his hat and made up a line of B.S..........

You have not posted any accurate antagonism towards the LDS Church.

You have made baseless claims, without any verifiable support or evidence...

Lie.

You have not "countered the lies." None of your claims have been verified, and when asked for more information, you play dumb.

Cult? I know you do not intend it as a compliment... But look-up what the Pagans called the pre-creed Church... Here is a hint... Your intended insult will look awfully dumb.

Here... Since you claim to be a paragon of virtue...

Lets look at one of your posts, and find out if you are a paragon of virtue, like you claim you are. Lets look and see if you post truth, or if you post lies...

Quoted:

The only thing special about your cult is that a crack head looked in his hat and made up a line of B.S..........

Let see if you tell the truth.

Post your information so that we can verify if Smith was a "crack head." Lets see you provide evidence. I think you are providing false information. I do not think that Smith was a (your words) "crack head."

Please provide information so that we can see if you are a man of honesty, or if you lie... I think you lie... I do not think that Smith was a (your words) "crack head." You are the first antagonist who I have seen make an accusation that Smith utilized the street drug referred to as "crack." But if you have a source, I will take a look at it. I think you are not a man of integrity, though. I do not think you tell the truth about LDS beliefs and our founder, Smith.

Go ahead and post where you found your information.

I think you fall into the same boat as a small handful of the other antagonists, and you have been caught in (another) lie...

Caught in one lie. Tell five more. That is what anti-Mormon "Christians" do.

Posted: 8/29/2015 8:48:32 PM EDT

[#6]

Quote History

Quoted:
Just one of the other lies you were caught in previously as well:

Your exact quote: "your religion told Mormons that anyone who said that Joseph Smith put a rock in his hat and put his face in that hat to translate the BOM was a liar."

You have never shown one source where the church has said that.

I have shown several where the church discusses the rock in the hat in lesson manuals, and where it was published in the official church wide magazine decades ago. The church has never hidden it or called people a liar like you claim.

The only liar is you.

LIEly

View Quote

They *cannot* rely on absolute TRUTH when they attack the LDS Church.

That would require them to examine their own position under a microscope. They cannot do that. Imagine their mindset when they *accurately* view their position: "Either they are right, and Constantine and his creeds and church are wrong. Or the Catholic Church is God's church."

When you look at the arguments *accurately* that is what it boils-down to... Seriously.

Think they have the ethics to examine the arguments *accurately*?-?-?

Posted: 8/29/2015 8:57:02 PM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:

You keep quoting people, not doctrine. That is your problem.

View Quote

Yep.

Their cutting-out key phrases to try to make a point...

Their using second-hand or third-hand sources, and claiming them to be first-hand sources...

Their using non-doctrinal sources, and claiming them do be scriptural and doctrinal sources...

Would get them an "F" on a College report... It would get them investigated for "ethics" and outed for "bias" in an academic setting.

But in anti-Mormon circles, their goal is for their lie to get repeated as a primary-source, and perpetuated. They have no academic integrity, and they pay no mind to accuracy and integrity.

And they have *absolutely* no idea that when someone makes a sincere effort to learn the truth, and they look at the *primary* sources... Their angst makes our job easier. Honestly.

Once someone sees the *entire* quote, or the doctrine in context, it is easy to answer doubt. It is easy to replace doubt with fear when confronting truth.

And they have no idea.

But yes, you are correct. Their tactics shows a clear-cut lack of ethics, and academic integrity. And every one of these threads, it gets pointed-out to them again and again and they feign lack of knowledge of integrity. They feign that they have no idea how LDS folks could possibly know more about the LDS Church compared to the antagonists.... They feign that they quote church doctrine in its entirety, then get caught cutting-out key phrases, and quoting from secondary-sources, claiming them to be primary sources...

Every thread is the same.

Get to know the *ignore* feature on the ones who pretend not to know what integrity and accuracy in citing primary-sources means...

Posted: 8/29/2015 9:16:26 PM EDT

[#8]

Quote History

Quoted:

And if you look at the Greek for John 1:1,
[T]he first and third "God" in this passage comes from Greek Ho Theos - the God - while the second occurrence was simply Theos.
So this could be rendered, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with The God."

Two separate beings but both Gods.

And if you actually look at the controversy surrounding 1 John 5:7, you will see another big problem. The wording found in the KJV did not exist in Greek manuscripts before 1600, but was added by men later.

A more accurate reading would be:
For there are three that testify
the Spirit, the water, and the blood;
and the three are in agreement.

3 separate individuals.

Due to the errors of men and politically charged councils, doctrine of men has creeped into the Bible. Two of the main and only verses supporting the trinity have very questionable meanings. Interpreted one way, it clearly shows them as 3 separate beings, just as Arius and many others saw them.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

More of your "verbatim" quotes, that were never actually said?

You keep sayin all these things that we belief and teach. The problem is, you are flat out lying. A second hand error filled account from almost 200 years ago does not define what we believe or teach. Maybe if you studied our actual doctrines and belefs, you would realize that.

Jesus was a man and is now an an exalted God, yet you have no problem with that.

LIEly

No, I keep quoting the Mormon founder, Mormon apostles and other Mormon leaders.

It appears you have no idea what Mormonism teaches if you do not understand that it holds that

A) God is an exalted man - who is described as being just like you are now in time past and

B) you, like you are right now, can become just like your "God" is now, in the future.

And your statement about Jesus doesn't describe the Biblical Jesus, it describes the Mormon Jesus.

Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh. God the Word - the Lord Jesus Christ - left heaven and came to earth and dwelt in a body of human flesh so God could pay for the sins of men.

Jesus was not a man who "progressed" and became a god.

Men do not "progress" and become gods. Not in Christianity. There is only one God - three persons - one God. Just like one egg is yolk, white and shell. Just like one compound H2O can be vapor, solid or liquid. Just like one human is spirit, soul and body.

And God has always been God, and does not change. He does not "progress." And, again, there is only One. Not dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions, etc.

One God and one God only.

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Word = God
Word = Jesus (became flesh)
God = Jesus

John 10:30-33, "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

And if you look at the Greek for John 1:1,
[T]he first and third "God" in this passage comes from Greek Ho Theos - the God - while the second occurrence was simply Theos.
So this could be rendered, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with The God."

Two separate beings but both Gods.

And if you actually look at the controversy surrounding 1 John 5:7, you will see another big problem. The wording found in the KJV did not exist in Greek manuscripts before 1600, but was added by men later.

A more accurate reading would be:
For there are three that testify
the Spirit, the water, and the blood;
and the three are in agreement.

3 separate individuals.

Due to the errors of men and politically charged councils, doctrine of men has creeped into the Bible. Two of the main and only verses supporting the trinity have very questionable meanings. Interpreted one way, it clearly shows them as 3 separate beings, just as Arius and many others saw them.

I see you have a problem with the Greek texts.
We'll continue to some more non-Greek text then...

Isaiah 43

The Redeemer of Israel
43 But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by your name;
You are Mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you.
When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned,
Nor shall the flame scorch you.
3 For I am the Lord your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I gave Egypt for your ransom,
Ethiopia and Seba in your place.
4 Since you were precious in My sight,
You have been honored,
And I have loved you;
Therefore I will give men for you,
And people for your life.
5 Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your descendants from the east,
And gather you from the west;
6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’
Bring My sons from afar,
And My daughters from the ends of the earth—
7 Everyone who is called by My name,
Whom I have created for My glory;
I have formed him, yes, I have made him.”
8 Bring out the blind people who have eyes,
And the deaf who have ears.
9 Let all the nations be gathered together,
And let the people be assembled.
Who among them can declare this,
And show us former things?
Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified;
Or let them hear and say, “It is truth.”
10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
12 I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the Lord, “that I am God.
13 Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”
14 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“For your sake I will send to Babylon,
And bring them all down as fugitives—
The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships.
15 I am the Lord, your Holy One,
The Creator of Israel, your King.”
16 Thus says the Lord, who makes a way in the sea
And a path through the mighty waters,
17 Who brings forth the chariot and horse,
The army and the power
(They shall lie down together, they shall not rise;
They are extinguished, they are quenched like a wick):
18 “Do not remember the former things,
Nor consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing,
Now it shall spring forth;
Shall you not know it?
I will even make a road in the wilderness
And rivers in the desert.
20 The beast of the field will honor Me,
The jackals and the ostriches,
Because I give waters in the wilderness
And rivers in the desert,
To give drink to My people, My chosen.
21 This people I have formed for Myself;
They shall declare My praise.

And was was Christ to be called upon his birth?
Immanuel...which means "God with us".

So if God says he is the ONLY God and he is the ONLY Savior...and his Son was sent with the name "God with us"....where's the discrepancy?

Posted: 8/29/2015 9:40:56 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:

I see you have a problem with the Greek texts.
We'll continue to some more non-Greek text then...

Isaiah 43

The Redeemer of Israel
43 But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by your name;
You are Mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you.
When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned,
Nor shall the flame scorch you.
3 For I am the Lord your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I gave Egypt for your ransom,
Ethiopia and Seba in your place.
4 Since you were precious in My sight,
You have been honored,
And I have loved you;
Therefore I will give men for you,
And people for your life.
5 Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your descendants from the east,
And gather you from the west;
6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’
Bring My sons from afar,
And My daughters from the ends of the earth—
7 Everyone who is called by My name,
Whom I have created for My glory;
I have formed him, yes, I have made him.”
8 Bring out the blind people who have eyes,
And the deaf who have ears.
9 Let all the nations be gathered together,
And let the people be assembled.
Who among them can declare this,
And show us former things?
Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified;
Or let them hear and say, “It is truth.”
10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
12 I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the Lord, “that I am God.
13 Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”
14 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“For your sake I will send to Babylon,
And bring them all down as fugitives—
The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships.
15 I am the Lord, your Holy One,
The Creator of Israel, your King.”
16 Thus says the Lord, who makes a way in the sea
And a path through the mighty waters,
17 Who brings forth the chariot and horse,
The army and the power
(They shall lie down together, they shall not rise;
They are extinguished, they are quenched like a wick):
18 “Do not remember the former things,
Nor consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing,
Now it shall spring forth;
Shall you not know it?
I will even make a road in the wilderness
And rivers in the desert.
20 The beast of the field will honor Me,
The jackals and the ostriches,
Because I give waters in the wilderness
And rivers in the desert,
To give drink to My people, My chosen.
21 This people I have formed for Myself;
They shall declare My praise.

And was was Christ to be called upon his birth?
Immanuel...which means "God with us".

So if God says he is the ONLY God and he is the ONLY Savior...and his Son was sent with the name "God with us"....where's the discrepancy?

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

More of your "verbatim" quotes, that were never actually said?

You keep sayin all these things that we belief and teach. The problem is, you are flat out lying. A second hand error filled account from almost 200 years ago does not define what we believe or teach. Maybe if you studied our actual doctrines and belefs, you would realize that.

Jesus was a man and is now an an exalted God, yet you have no problem with that.

LIEly

No, I keep quoting the Mormon founder, Mormon apostles and other Mormon leaders.

It appears you have no idea what Mormonism teaches if you do not understand that it holds that

A) God is an exalted man - who is described as being just like you are now in time past and

B) you, like you are right now, can become just like your "God" is now, in the future.

And your statement about Jesus doesn't describe the Biblical Jesus, it describes the Mormon Jesus.

Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh. God the Word - the Lord Jesus Christ - left heaven and came to earth and dwelt in a body of human flesh so God could pay for the sins of men.

Jesus was not a man who "progressed" and became a god.

Men do not "progress" and become gods. Not in Christianity. There is only one God - three persons - one God. Just like one egg is yolk, white and shell. Just like one compound H2O can be vapor, solid or liquid. Just like one human is spirit, soul and body.

And God has always been God, and does not change. He does not "progress." And, again, there is only One. Not dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions, etc.

One God and one God only.

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Word = God
Word = Jesus (became flesh)
God = Jesus

John 10:30-33, "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

And if you look at the Greek for John 1:1,
[T]he first and third "God" in this passage comes from Greek Ho Theos - the God - while the second occurrence was simply Theos.
So this could be rendered, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with The God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with The God."

Two separate beings but both Gods.

And if you actually look at the controversy surrounding 1 John 5:7, you will see another big problem. The wording found in the KJV did not exist in Greek manuscripts before 1600, but was added by men later.

A more accurate reading would be:
For there are three that testify
the Spirit, the water, and the blood;
and the three are in agreement.

3 separate individuals.

Due to the errors of men and politically charged councils, doctrine of men has creeped into the Bible. Two of the main and only verses supporting the trinity have very questionable meanings. Interpreted one way, it clearly shows them as 3 separate beings, just as Arius and many others saw them.

I see you have a problem with the Greek texts.
We'll continue to some more non-Greek text then...

Isaiah 43

The Redeemer of Israel
43 But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by your name;
You are Mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you.
When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned,
Nor shall the flame scorch you.
3 For I am the Lord your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I gave Egypt for your ransom,
Ethiopia and Seba in your place.
4 Since you were precious in My sight,
You have been honored,
And I have loved you;
Therefore I will give men for you,
And people for your life.
5 Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your descendants from the east,
And gather you from the west;
6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’
Bring My sons from afar,
And My daughters from the ends of the earth—
7 Everyone who is called by My name,
Whom I have created for My glory;
I have formed him, yes, I have made him.”
8 Bring out the blind people who have eyes,
And the deaf who have ears.
9 Let all the nations be gathered together,
And let the people be assembled.
Who among them can declare this,
And show us former things?
Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified;
Or let them hear and say, “It is truth.”
10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
12 I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the Lord, “that I am God.
13 Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”
14 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“For your sake I will send to Babylon,
And bring them all down as fugitives—
The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships.
15 I am the Lord, your Holy One,
The Creator of Israel, your King.”
16 Thus says the Lord, who makes a way in the sea
And a path through the mighty waters,
17 Who brings forth the chariot and horse,
The army and the power
(They shall lie down together, they shall not rise;
They are extinguished, they are quenched like a wick):
18 “Do not remember the former things,
Nor consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing,
Now it shall spring forth;
Shall you not know it?
I will even make a road in the wilderness
And rivers in the desert.
20 The beast of the field will honor Me,
The jackals and the ostriches,
Because I give waters in the wilderness
And rivers in the desert,
To give drink to My people, My chosen.
21 This people I have formed for Myself;
They shall declare My praise.

And was was Christ to be called upon his birth?
Immanuel...which means "God with us".

So if God says he is the ONLY God and he is the ONLY Savior...and his Son was sent with the name "God with us"....where's the discrepancy?

But you are talking to men - and men have pride....men are important - they have reason and logic - they have been fed a line of BS by a BS'r the thought that they are mere mortals and all of their works and accomplishments are like dirty rags to God is NOT acceptable. Because their simple minds can't understand the trinity - it can't be true - because men are so smart.

Posted: 8/29/2015 9:52:10 PM EDT

[#10]

The BOM is credited to have been written between 600 BC and AD 421. Yet the KJV version of the bible was first published in AD 1611. If the BOM was written 600 BC and AD 421, then how can it contain such extensive quotations and plagiarisms from the 1611 KJV of the bible that did not come for another 1200-2000 years? Could it be possible Joseph Smith just pulled from the KJV for his Book of Mormon?

Here are a few:

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not ... is not puffed up ... seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoice not in iniquity, but rejoice in the truth; Beareth all things .. hopeth all things, endureth all things (1 Corinthians 13:4-7

View Quote

charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not... is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things... hopeth all things, endureth all things (Moroni 7:45)

View Quote

all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will (1 Corinthians 12:11)

View Quote

all these gifts come by the Spirit of Christ; and they come unto every man severally, according as he will (Moroni 10:17)

View Quote

I have on record over 30 more plagiarisms, but I'd figure we can start there.

ETA; also, why on earth was was the BOM, which was supposedly written long before the KJV, happen to also include clarifying words in Elizabethan English? According to the BOM, Moroni certainly wasn't a Brit

Posted: 8/29/2015 10:10:54 PM EDT

[#11]

How's this for getting along....long but good read. If you don't have time just read the first part.
http://www.albertmohler.com/2013/10/21/a-clear-and-present-danger-religious-liberty-marriage-and-the-family-in-the-late-modern-age-an-address-at-brigham-young-university/

I obviously don't know how to make it hot...sorry...

Posted: 8/29/2015 10:11:23 PM EDT

[#12]

Quote History

Quoted:

I see you have a problem with the Greek texts.
We'll continue to some more non-Greek text then...

Isaiah 43

The Redeemer of Israel
43 But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by your name;
You are Mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you.
When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned,
Nor shall the flame scorch you.
3 For I am the Lord your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I gave Egypt for your ransom,
Ethiopia and Seba in your place.
4 Since you were precious in My sight,
You have been honored,
And I have loved you;
Therefore I will give men for you,
And people for your life.
5 Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your descendants from the east,
And gather you from the west;
6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’
Bring My sons from afar,
And My daughters from the ends of the earth—
7 Everyone who is called by My name,
Whom I have created for My glory;
I have formed him, yes, I have made him.”
8 Bring out the blind people who have eyes,
And the deaf who have ears.
9 Let all the nations be gathered together,
And let the people be assembled.
Who among them can declare this,
And show us former things?
Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified;
Or let them hear and say, “It is truth.”
10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
12 I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the Lord, “that I am God.
13 Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”
14 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“For your sake I will send to Babylon,
And bring them all down as fugitives—
The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships.
15 I am the Lord, your Holy One,
The Creator of Israel, your King.”
16 Thus says the Lord, who makes a way in the sea
And a path through the mighty waters,
17 Who brings forth the chariot and horse,
The army and the power
(They shall lie down together, they shall not rise;
They are extinguished, they are quenched like a wick):
18 “Do not remember the former things,
Nor consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing,
Now it shall spring forth;
Shall you not know it?
I will even make a road in the wilderness
And rivers in the desert.
20 The beast of the field will honor Me,
The jackals and the ostriches,
Because I give waters in the wilderness
And rivers in the desert,
To give drink to My people, My chosen.
21 This people I have formed for Myself;
They shall declare My praise.

And was was Christ to be called upon his birth?
Immanuel...which means "God with us".

So if God says he is the ONLY God and he is the ONLY Savior...and his Son was sent with the name "God with us"....where's the discrepancy?

View Quote

When read in context, it is clear that the intent of the passage is to differentiate YHWH from the foreign gods and idols in the cultures surrounding the Jews.
Verses 11 - 13 are a continuation of the statement by God:
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.
Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?" (NIV)
The context of this passage makes it clear that the issue being addressed is not one of general theology but rather a very specific and practical command to recognize YHWH as Israel's only god and the only god to be worshiped.

Looking at Genesis we see more then one at the creation:
26 ¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Christ said: "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

2 separate individuals. If they were the same, they would not have different wills.

In John 8: we see:
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

He can do nothing of himself. Again 2 individuals.

In John 5, we clearly see them as separate.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So if they are the same, how can they be a judge bit not a judge? How come he could do nothing except for what he saw himself do?

The Bible clearly shows them as 2 separate beings over and over.

Posted: 8/29/2015 10:14:16 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:

When read in context, it is clear that the intent of the passage is to differentiate YHWH from the foreign gods and idols in the cultures surrounding the Jews.
Verses 11 - 13 are a continuation of the statement by God:
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.
Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?" (NIV)
The context of this passage makes it clear that the issue being addressed is not one of general theology but rather a very specific and practical command to recognize YHWH as Israel's only god and the only god to be worshiped.

Looking at Genesis we see more then one at the creation:
26 ¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Christ said: "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

2 separate individuals. If they were the same, they would not have different wills.

In John 8: we see:
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

He can do nothing of himself. Again 2 individuals.

In John 5, we clearly see them as separate.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So if they are the same, how can they be a judge bit not a judge? How come he could do nothing except for what he saw himself do?

The Bible clearly shows them as 2 separate beings over and over.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

I see you have a problem with the Greek texts.
We'll continue to some more non-Greek text then...

Isaiah 43

The Redeemer of Israel
43 But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by your name;
You are Mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you.
When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned,
Nor shall the flame scorch you.
3 For I am the Lord your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I gave Egypt for your ransom,
Ethiopia and Seba in your place.
4 Since you were precious in My sight,
You have been honored,
And I have loved you;
Therefore I will give men for you,
And people for your life.
5 Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your descendants from the east,
And gather you from the west;
6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’
Bring My sons from afar,
And My daughters from the ends of the earth—
7 Everyone who is called by My name,
Whom I have created for My glory;
I have formed him, yes, I have made him.”
8 Bring out the blind people who have eyes,
And the deaf who have ears.
9 Let all the nations be gathered together,
And let the people be assembled.
Who among them can declare this,
And show us former things?
Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified;
Or let them hear and say, “It is truth.”
10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
12 I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the Lord, “that I am God.
13 Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”
14 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“For your sake I will send to Babylon,
And bring them all down as fugitives—
The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships.
15 I am the Lord, your Holy One,
The Creator of Israel, your King.”
16 Thus says the Lord, who makes a way in the sea
And a path through the mighty waters,
17 Who brings forth the chariot and horse,
The army and the power
(They shall lie down together, they shall not rise;
They are extinguished, they are quenched like a wick):
18 “Do not remember the former things,
Nor consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing,
Now it shall spring forth;
Shall you not know it?
I will even make a road in the wilderness
And rivers in the desert.
20 The beast of the field will honor Me,
The jackals and the ostriches,
Because I give waters in the wilderness
And rivers in the desert,
To give drink to My people, My chosen.
21 This people I have formed for Myself;
They shall declare My praise.

And was was Christ to be called upon his birth?
Immanuel...which means "God with us".

So if God says he is the ONLY God and he is the ONLY Savior...and his Son was sent with the name "God with us"....where's the discrepancy?

When read in context, it is clear that the intent of the passage is to differentiate YHWH from the foreign gods and idols in the cultures surrounding the Jews.
Verses 11 - 13 are a continuation of the statement by God:
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.
Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?" (NIV)
The context of this passage makes it clear that the issue being addressed is not one of general theology but rather a very specific and practical command to recognize YHWH as Israel's only god and the only god to be worshiped.

Looking at Genesis we see more then one at the creation:
26 ¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Christ said: "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

2 separate individuals. If they were the same, they would not have different wills.

In John 8: we see:
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

He can do nothing of himself. Again 2 individuals.

In John 5, we clearly see them as separate.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So if they are the same, how can they be a judge bit not a judge? How come he could do nothing except for what he saw himself do?

The Bible clearly shows them as 2 separate beings over and over.

Simple is as simple does. Sad - very sad.........

Posted: 8/29/2015 10:19:55 PM EDT

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:
How's this for getting along....long but good read. If you don't have time just read the first part.
http://www.albertmohler.com/2013/10/21/a-clear-and-present-danger-religious-liberty-marriage-and-the-family-in-the-late-modern-age-an-address-at-brigham-young-university/

I obviously don't know how to make it hot...sorry...

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I scanned through most and read it good bit. Very good link -- thanks!

Posted: 8/29/2015 10:21:14 PM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:
The BOM is credited to have been written between 600 BC and AD 421. Yet the KJV version of the bible was first published in AD 1611. If the BOM was written 600 BC and AD 421, then how can it contain such extensive quotations and plagiarisms from the 1611 KJV of the bible that did not come for another 1200-2000 years? Could it be possible Joseph Smith just pulled from the KJV for his Book of Mormon?

Here are a few:

I have on record over 30 more plagiarisms, but I'd figure we can start there.

ETA; also, why on earth was was the BOM, which was supposedly written long before the KJV, happen to also include clarifying words in Elizabethan English? According to the BOM, Moroni certainly wasn't a Brit

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Quoted:
The BOM is credited to have been written between 600 BC and AD 421. Yet the KJV version of the bible was first published in AD 1611. If the BOM was written 600 BC and AD 421, then how can it contain such extensive quotations and plagiarisms from the 1611 KJV of the bible that did not come for another 1200-2000 years? Could it be possible Joseph Smith just pulled from the KJV for his Book of Mormon?

Here are a few:

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not ... is not puffed up ... seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoice not in iniquity, but rejoice in the truth; Beareth all things .. hopeth all things, endureth all things (1 Corinthians 13:4-7

charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not... is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things... hopeth all things, endureth all things (Moroni 7:45)

all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will (1 Corinthians 12:11)

all these gifts come by the Spirit of Christ; and they come unto every man severally, according as he will (Moroni 10:17)

I have on record over 30 more plagiarisms, but I'd figure we can start there.

ETA; also, why on earth was was the BOM, which was supposedly written long before the KJV, happen to also include clarifying words in Elizabethan English? According to the BOM, Moroni certainly wasn't a Brit

This will answer your questions and get you started.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Plagiarism_accusations/King_James_Bible

Posted: 8/29/2015 10:33:34 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:
The Bible clearly shows them as 2 separate beings over and over.

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Quoted:
The Bible clearly shows them as 2 separate beings over and over.

Interesting, that the teachings found in the BOM are not followed by present-day Mormons.

Mosiah 15:1

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— 4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

Alma 11:28, 28

28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? 29 And he answered, No.

Nephi 31:31

behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

These all explicitly state there is only one God. Why do you think the present-day Mormon beliefs contradict the BOM? Should we conclude the BOM is wrong, or the present day Mormon leadership is in error? Which on is it?

Posted: 8/29/2015 10:36:59 PM EDT

[#17]

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they have been fed a line of BS by a BS'r

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they have been fed a line of BS by a BS'r

I think you are wrong. I think you are not providing *accurate* information about LDS beliefs and doctrines.

I think you are lying about LDS beliefs, practices, doctrines, and the first Latter-Day Prophet, Smith.

Quoted:

The only thing special about your cult is that a crack head looked in his hat and made up a line of B.S..........

I have asked for a reference about Smith being a (your words) "crack head."

I believe you are lying.

But I wanted to ask if you could back-up your claim with any sort of verifiable information. I want to give you a chance...

I think you are (like a small handful of other antagonists) *purposefully* providing false and misleading information about Smith, and LDS beliefs...

But if you can provide a source for Smith being a (your claim) "crack head" you could prove yourself to be a man of integrity.

I think that you are certainly *not* a man of integrity...

Posted: 8/29/2015 10:42:26 PM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:

I think you are wrong. I think you are not providing *accurate* information about LDS beliefs and doctrines.

I think you are lying about LDS beliefs, practices, doctrines, and the first Latter-Day Prophet, Smith.

I have asked for a reference about Smith being a (your words) "crack head."

I believe you are lying.

But I wanted to ask if you could back-up your claim with any sort of verifiable information. I want to give you a chance...

I think you are (like a small handful of other antagonists) *purposefully* providing false and misleading information about Smith, and LDS beliefs...

But if you can provide a source for Smith being a (your claim) "crack head" you could prove yourself to be a man of integrity.

I think that you are certainly *not* a man of integrity...

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Quoted:

Quoted:
they have been fed a line of BS by a BS'r

I think you are wrong. I think you are not providing *accurate* information about LDS beliefs and doctrines.

I think you are lying about LDS beliefs, practices, doctrines, and the first Latter-Day Prophet, Smith.

Quoted:

The only thing special about your cult is that a crack head looked in his hat and made up a line of B.S..........

I have asked for a reference about Smith being a (your words) "crack head."

I believe you are lying.

But I wanted to ask if you could back-up your claim with any sort of verifiable information. I want to give you a chance...

I think you are (like a small handful of other antagonists) *purposefully* providing false and misleading information about Smith, and LDS beliefs...

But if you can provide a source for Smith being a (your claim) "crack head" you could prove yourself to be a man of integrity.

I think that you are certainly *not* a man of integrity...

I saw a crack head who swore they could fly - a sudden drop resulting in a 1/2 body cast begged to differ. A hat, a rock and some Indian peyote swore they could become a god - a sudden trip to Hell will beg to differ.

Posted: 8/29/2015 10:44:31 PM EDT

[#19]

Quote History

Quoted:

You keep quoting people, not doctrine. That is your problem.

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No, actually it is YOUR problem because I quote YOUR founder, YOUR apostles and YOUR church leaders.

It's not my problem at all.

You either believe them or admit that your founder, apostles and leaders are not reliable.

Do you realize that you call ME a liar for quoting THEM?

You, without understanding, are calling them liars.

You are so bent on trying to discredit anyone who criticizes your religion that you fail to see you that you expose the fact that you exhibit no ability to reason.

And since you cannot reason, all you can do is repeat LIAR! LIAR! LIAR!

That's the limit of your ability to respond.

Posted: 8/29/2015 10:46:04 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:

Interesting, that the teachings found in the BOM are not followed by present-day Mormons.

Mosiah 15:1

Alma 11:28, 28

Nephi 31:31

These all explicitly state there is only one God. Why do you think the present-day Mormon beliefs contradict the BOM? Should we conclude the BOM is wrong, or the present day Mormon leadership is in error? Which on is it?

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Quoted:

Quoted:
The Bible clearly shows them as 2 separate beings over and over.

Interesting, that the teachings found in the BOM are not followed by present-day Mormons.

Mosiah 15:1

3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son— 4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.

Alma 11:28, 28

28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? 29 And he answered, No.

Nephi 31:31

behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

These all explicitly state there is only one God. Why do you think the present-day Mormon beliefs contradict the BOM? Should we conclude the BOM is wrong, or the present day Mormon leadership is in error? Which on is it?

They are one God, in purpose. The Bible shows sevreal examples of separate individuals being one in purpose

The Bible says a husband and wife are one.

The Bible talks about how we can be one body in Christ:

5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

John 17 also discusses this concept.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one

So we're all the people "one" in body, or one in spirit and purpose?

Posted: 8/29/2015 10:51:57 PM EDT

[#21]

Quote History

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ETA; also, why on earth was was the BOM, which was supposedly written long before the KJV, happen to also include clarifying words in Elizabethan English? According to the BOM, Moroni certainly wasn't a Brit

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The verses in Moroni would have been written ~400 years *after* the verses in the New Testament... And in BOM chronology, it would have been written *after* Christ himself taught the people in the Americas...

If you believe the BOM is --as it says it is-- another Testament of Jesus Christ, then you would believe that Christ the Lord visited the American Continent, and taught the people.

If the New Testament is the Apostles repeating Christ's teachings, and Christ's revelations... It would be a pretty weak lighthouse for the BOM not to contain the *same* teachings... Especially if you believe that they were direct-from-the-source revelations from Christ...

Also... If you believe those who were there when Smith translated the BOM, (Emma, Harris, Cowdrey), they say he translated by the gift and power of God. They each claimed that Smith had no other books with him when he translated.

Posted: 8/29/2015 10:54:43 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:

They are one God, in purpose. The Bible shows sevreal examples of separate individualshower being one in purpose

The Bible says a husband and wife are one.

The Bible talks about how we can be one body in Christ:

5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

John 17 also discusses this concept.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one

So we're all the people "one" in body, or one in spirit and purpose?

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Wow - with a reach like that you guys should start an NBA team - instant champions...........Ignore the whole picture painted by the Bible - so you can pick and choose a few verses that you turn into a wild fantasy religion. Wow! I know it has been done hundreds of times - but you guys could put JK Rowling out of business.

Posted: 8/29/2015 10:55:33 PM EDT

[#23]

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Simple is as simple does. Sad - very sad.........

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Simple is as simple does. Sad - very sad.........

Yeah... I was going to say the same thing about your false accusations about the LDS Church...

Found a source that verifies your claim:

Quoted:

The only thing special about your cult is that a crack head looked in his hat and made up a line of B.S..........

I think you do not provide *accurate* information about the LDS Church. I think you lie. I do not think that Smith *ever* used (your words) "crack." I don't think there is a source that will say he ever used it *once.*

I think you lied.

But if you have a source... Provide it...

Otherwise, I will conclude you are just another antagonist. Relying on lies, half-truth, false innuendo, and fabrications...

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:00:40 PM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:

No, actually it is YOUR problem because I quote YOUR founder, YOUR apostles and YOUR church leaders.

It's not my problem at all.

You either believe them or admit that your founder, apostles and leaders are not reliable.

Do you realize that you call ME a liar for quoting THEM?

You, without understanding, are calling them liars.

You are so bent on trying to discredit anyone who criticizes your religion that you fail to see you that you expose the fact that you exhibit no ability to reason.

And since you cannot reason, all you can do is repeat LIAR! LIAR! LIAR!

That's the limit of your ability to respond.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

You keep quoting people, not doctrine. That is your problem.

No, actually it is YOUR problem because I quote YOUR founder, YOUR apostles and YOUR church leaders.

It's not my problem at all.

You either believe them or admit that your founder, apostles and leaders are not reliable.

Do you realize that you call ME a liar for quoting THEM?

You, without understanding, are calling them liars.

You are so bent on trying to discredit anyone who criticizes your religion that you fail to see you that you expose the fact that you exhibit no ability to reason.

And since you cannot reason, all you can do is repeat LIAR! LIAR! LIAR!

That's the limit of your ability to respond.

The problem is you reference (not quote) some and ignore others. It shows your dishonesty and hypocrisy. You claim the leaders are inspired when they support your view, but are just "spinning" things when they dont.

You are actually not even quoting the leaders. You are quoting 2nd hand accounts that have been shown to have errors and were never verified by those that spoke them. Or you quote sources that have been disowned by the author.

If you brought that up in a courtroom and tried to present it as evidence, it would be dismissed as hearsay.

If you tried to present something as evidence where the author admitted he was wrong and disowned it. A judge would probably laugh at you.

If Joseph Smith had personally written down his speach, or had the opportunity to correct the errors in transcription and approve it, then yes, you could say you quoted him.

Yet you claim it is what Mormons teach and believe. That is just one of your lies. Show where it is being taught in Mormon Churches. You can't.

Did you ever find a source for your lie when you claimed the Mormon church called people liars for talking about the seer stone?

LIEly

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:01:45 PM EDT

[#25]

Quote History

Quoted:

snip

This will answer your questions and get you started.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Plagiarism_accusations/King_James_Bible

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snip

This will answer your questions and get you started.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Plagiarism_accusations/King_James_Bible

The link you provided never addressed any of the plagiarisms I cited, but simply stated that other plagiarisms were "sometimes uncited quotes from Old Testament prophets on the brass plates"; all the plagiarisms I brought up, were from the NT, not OT. This failed to address my question, but actually brought in more doubt on the seriousness of the plagiarisms. Your rebuttal?

Further, the link you provided stated that "The Book of Mormon emulates the language and style of the King James Bible because that is the scriptural style Joseph Smith, translator of the Book of Mormon, was familiar with"

David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon, give the following details on the translation process:

I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hate, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual life would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was is principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man.

(Source: David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ)

So which is it? "Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man" or as the link you provided addressing the Elizabethan English - "The Book of Mormon emulates the language and style of the King James Bible because that is the scriptural style Joseph Smith, translator of the Book of Mormon, was familiar with"? Who translated it, God, or Man?

Further, did you know that over 4,000 changes have been made to the original BOM since its original publication since 1830? Even articles in your own Ensign magazine concede that changes have been made. How do you reconcile these many changes with the testimony that the heavenly messenger speaking to Smith said the original translation was done by the power of God and "correct"?

How do you reconcile all these changes with the testimony knowing that the translation process used a "see stone", and was done by individual characters and specific words? How was the mormon god wrong and it needed to be changed multiple times over time if it was literally done word for word, character by character "and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct"?

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:05:51 PM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:

The link you provided never addressed any of the plagiarisms I cited, but simply stated that other plagiarisms were "sometimes uncited quotes from Old Testament prophets on the brass plates"; all the plagiarisms I brought up, were from the NT, not OT. This failed to address my question, but actually brought in more doubt on the seriousness of the plagiarisms. Your rebuttal?

Further, the link you provided stated that "The Book of Mormon emulates the language and style of the King James Bible because that is the scriptural style Joseph Smith, translator of the Book of Mormon, was familiar with"

David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon, give the following details on the translation process:
(Source: David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ)

So which is it? "Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man" or as the link you provided addressing the Elizabethan English - "The Book of Mormon emulates the language and style of the King James Bible because that is the scriptural style Joseph Smith, translator of the Book of Mormon, was familiar with"? Who translated it, God, or Man?

Further, did you know that over 4,000 changes have been made to the original BOM since its original publication since 1830? Even articles in your own Ensign magazine concede that changes have been made. How do you reconcile these many changes with the testimony that the heavenly messenger speaking to Smith said the original translation was done by the power of God and "correct"?

How do you reconcile all these changes with the testimony knowing that the translation process used a "see stone", and was done by individual characters and specific words? How was the mormon god wrong and it needed to be changed multiple times over time if it was literally done word for word, character by character "and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct"?

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Quoted:

Quoted:

snip

This will answer your questions and get you started.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Plagiarism_accusations/King_James_Bible

The link you provided never addressed any of the plagiarisms I cited, but simply stated that other plagiarisms were "sometimes uncited quotes from Old Testament prophets on the brass plates"; all the plagiarisms I brought up, were from the NT, not OT. This failed to address my question, but actually brought in more doubt on the seriousness of the plagiarisms. Your rebuttal?

Further, the link you provided stated that "The Book of Mormon emulates the language and style of the King James Bible because that is the scriptural style Joseph Smith, translator of the Book of Mormon, was familiar with"

David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon, give the following details on the translation process:

I will now give you a description of the manner in which the Book of Mormon was translated. Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hate, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual life would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was is principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man.

(Source: David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ)

So which is it? "Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man" or as the link you provided addressing the Elizabethan English - "The Book of Mormon emulates the language and style of the King James Bible because that is the scriptural style Joseph Smith, translator of the Book of Mormon, was familiar with"? Who translated it, God, or Man?

Further, did you know that over 4,000 changes have been made to the original BOM since its original publication since 1830? Even articles in your own Ensign magazine concede that changes have been made. How do you reconcile these many changes with the testimony that the heavenly messenger speaking to Smith said the original translation was done by the power of God and "correct"?

How do you reconcile all these changes with the testimony knowing that the translation process used a "see stone", and was done by individual characters and specific words? How was the mormon god wrong and it needed to be changed multiple times over time if it was literally done word for word, character by character "and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct"?

Actually. If you had read it it did address what you posted.

"But what about the "Faith, Hope and Charity" passage in Moroni 7:45? Its resemblance to 1 Corinthians 13:] is undeniable. This particular passage, recently singled out for attack in Christianity Today, is actually one of those things that turn out to be a striking vindication of the Book of Mormon. For the whole passage, which scholars have labeled "the Hymn to Charity," was shown early in this century by a number of first-rate investigators working independently (A. Harnack, J. Weiss, R. Reizenstein) to have originated not with Paul at all, but to go back to some older but unknown source: Paul is merely quoting from the record.

Now it so happens that other Book of Mormon writers were also peculiarly fond of quoting from the record. Captain Moroni, for example, reminds his people of an old tradition about the two garments of Joseph, telling them a detailed story which I have found only in [th' Alabi of Persia,] a thousand-year-old commentary on the Old Testament, a work still untranslated and quite unknown to the world of Joseph Smith. So I find it not a refutation but a confirmation of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon when Paul and Moroni both quote from a once well-known but now lost Hebrew writing."

The rest of the stuff you posted has already been hashed over about 10 times throughout this thread.

Here is a link that might help you.
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/12/understanding-textual-changes-in-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:07:12 PM EDT

[#27]

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Interesting, that the teachings found in the BOM are not followed by present-day Mormons.

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Interesting, that the teachings found in the BOM are not followed by present-day Mormons.

The Latter-Day Church follows the teachings of the BOM and the Bible.

Both are clear. Christ is God's Son.

As it has always been...

Quoted:
These all explicitly state there is only one God.

They all clearly show the one-purpose of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

Quoted:
Why do you think the present-day Mormon beliefs contradict the BOM? Should we conclude the BOM is wrong, or the present day Mormon leadership is in error? Which on is it?

There is only contradiction for those who purposefully try to find it... And ignore clear-cut BOM scripture that teaches the separation but one-in-purpose perfectly...

The BOM clearly states that God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit are one-in-purpose. There are sufficient scriptures to show that Christ is Gods Son, and the Holy Spirit is separate, but one-in-purpose...

3 Nephi 12:10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;

3 Nephi 19: 23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.

3 Nephi 9:15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.

Link

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:08:18 PM EDT

[#28]

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I saw a crack head who swore they could fly - a sudden drop resulting in a 1/2 body cast begged to differ. A hat, a rock and some Indian peyote swore they could become a god - a sudden trip to Hell will beg to differ.

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So you admit you are trolling...?

In addition to trolling, I think you provide misleading and inaccurate claims about LDS doctrine and beliefs...

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:09:01 PM EDT

[#29]

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Remember your first post in this thread?

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.... had you been as accepting of me as I was willing to be of you from the start....

Remember your first post in this thread?

Quoted:
https://wandervogeldiary.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kid-giving-the-finger.jpeg

Oh look, a bunch of Anti-Mormon douche-nozzle fundies bashing LDS and LDS doctrine in GD, wow, never been done before....

Yes, I delightfully remember, You still act like a choad, and your point? Or were you still just wandering around the chess board knocking pieces over, shitting all over the place and thinking you've won something?

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:09:08 PM EDT

[#30]

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When read in context, it is clear that the intent of the passage is to differentiate YHWH from the foreign gods and idols in the cultures surrounding the Jews.
Verses 11 - 13 are a continuation of the statement by God:
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.
Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?" (NIV)
The context of this passage makes it clear that the issue being addressed is not one of general theology but rather a very specific and practical command to recognize YHWH as Israel's only god and the only god to be worshiped.

Looking at Genesis we see more then one at the creation:
26 ¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Christ said: "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

2 separate individuals. If they were the same, they would not have different wills.

In John 8: we see:
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

He can do nothing of himself. Again 2 individuals.

In John 5, we clearly see them as separate.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So if they are the same, how can they be a judge bit not a judge? How come he could do nothing except for what he saw himself do?

The Bible clearly shows them as 2 separate beings over and over.

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I see you have a problem with the Greek texts.
We'll continue to some more non-Greek text then...

Isaiah 43

The Redeemer of Israel
43 But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by your name;
You are Mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you.
When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned,
Nor shall the flame scorch you.
3 For I am the Lord your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I gave Egypt for your ransom,
Ethiopia and Seba in your place.
4 Since you were precious in My sight,
You have been honored,
And I have loved you;
Therefore I will give men for you,
And people for your life.
5 Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your descendants from the east,
And gather you from the west;
6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’
Bring My sons from afar,
And My daughters from the ends of the earth—
7 Everyone who is called by My name,
Whom I have created for My glory;
I have formed him, yes, I have made him.”
8 Bring out the blind people who have eyes,
And the deaf who have ears.
9 Let all the nations be gathered together,
And let the people be assembled.
Who among them can declare this,
And show us former things?
Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified;
Or let them hear and say, “It is truth.”
10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
12 I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the Lord, “that I am God.
13 Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”
14 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“For your sake I will send to Babylon,
And bring them all down as fugitives—
The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships.
15 I am the Lord, your Holy One,
The Creator of Israel, your King.”
16 Thus says the Lord, who makes a way in the sea
And a path through the mighty waters,
17 Who brings forth the chariot and horse,
The army and the power
(They shall lie down together, they shall not rise;
They are extinguished, they are quenched like a wick):
18 “Do not remember the former things,
Nor consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing,
Now it shall spring forth;
Shall you not know it?
I will even make a road in the wilderness
And rivers in the desert.
20 The beast of the field will honor Me,
The jackals and the ostriches,
Because I give waters in the wilderness
And rivers in the desert,
To give drink to My people, My chosen.
21 This people I have formed for Myself;
They shall declare My praise.

And was was Christ to be called upon his birth?
Immanuel...which means "God with us".

So if God says he is the ONLY God and he is the ONLY Savior...and his Son was sent with the name "God with us"....where's the discrepancy?

When read in context, it is clear that the intent of the passage is to differentiate YHWH from the foreign gods and idols in the cultures surrounding the Jews.
Verses 11 - 13 are a continuation of the statement by God:
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.
Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?" (NIV)
The context of this passage makes it clear that the issue being addressed is not one of general theology but rather a very specific and practical command to recognize YHWH as Israel's only god and the only god to be worshiped.

Looking at Genesis we see more then one at the creation:
26 ¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Christ said: "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

2 separate individuals. If they were the same, they would not have different wills.

In John 8: we see:
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

He can do nothing of himself. Again 2 individuals.

In John 5, we clearly see them as separate.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So if they are the same, how can they be a judge bit not a judge? How come he could do nothing except for what he saw himself do?

The Bible clearly shows them as 2 separate beings over and over.

Well, I thought God saying that no other gods were created before him or after him and that he is the ONLY God would be enough...
Much of what the New Testament apostles wrote of Christ in near exact references to what God said about the truth of Himself in the Old Testament.

>>God says of Himself to Isaiah:
Isaiah 40:3 A voice is calling, “Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.

Mark writes of Christ:
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

What Isaiah is told to write of God is what Mark is told to write of Christ. They are the same.

>>God tells in Joel:
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Paul speaks of Christ referencing how God references himself in Joel:
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

What God reveals of Himself in Joel so also Paul says is the EXACT same case with Christ. They are the same. The same God Joel said to call upon to be saved is the same God who Paul says to call upon in Christ. There is no duality.

>>Again, in Isaiah, God reveals:
Isaiah 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

John says of Christ in the EXACT same manner:
John 12:While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

John says Isaiah was speaking of Christ the same as that of the Lord...because they are one in the same.

>>Another revealing of God in Isaiah:
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

And Peter says of Christ the redeemer:
2 Peter 1:1 To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

John the Revelator tells us:
Revelation1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
And when John sees Christ, the Son of Man, in his dream:
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

So...God says he is the first and the last........and Jesus says he is the first and the last. I'd either say PICK ONE or believe they are indeed the SAME!

>>God speaks in Zechariah:
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

And David relays the suffering in his psalm:
Psalm 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

John tells us of Christ:
John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

And Revelation speaks of Christ again:
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

God says they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced and mourn for HIM. God would be pierced....Christ was pierced. It is the same.

You see...the Bible is so grand because it is so consistent from beginning to end. What God said of himself hundreds of years before Christ was sent is EXACTLY what was said of Christ while he was on this earth. They make no bones about it -- they are not two separate, distinct "gods".
God said there are to be NO other gods before him -- and Christ said that he is the Lord Christ Jesus. You cannot enter into Heaven without believing that he is Lord...but God says put no one before Him. How do you reconcile? THEY ARE THE SAME, as they have said all along.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Paul did not misspeak.

Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him a name which is above every name; that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

The name of Jesus was to be given as the name above ALL names, that he would be worshipped as LORD. As separate beings, this contradicts what God said about Him being the only God above all other names.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:10:13 PM EDT

[#31]

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Not to mention the comment about holding me underwater.

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.... had you been as accepting of me as I was willing to be of you from the start....

Remember your first post in this thread?

Quoted:
https://wandervogeldiary.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/kid-giving-the-finger.jpeg

Oh look, a bunch of Anti-Mormon douche-nozzle fundies bashing LDS and LDS doctrine in GD, wow, never been done before....

Not to mention the comment about holding me underwater.

I said so many heart felt dismissals to you, refresh my memory, I don't remember threatening to hold you underwater. perhaps I recommended that you go flush yourself?

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:10:52 PM EDT

[#32]

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The Latter-Day Church follows the teachings of the BOM and the Bible.

Both are clear. Christ is God's Son.

As it has always been...

They all clearly show the one-purpose of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

There is only contradiction for those who purposefully try to find it... And ignore clear-cut BOM scripture that teaches the separation but one-in-purpose perfectly...

The BOM clearly states that God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit are one-in-purpose. There are sufficient scriptures to show that Christ is Gods Son, and the Holy Spirit is separate, but one-in-purpose...

3 Nephi 12:10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;

3 Nephi 19: 23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.

3 Nephi 9:15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.

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Quoted:

Interesting, that the teachings found in the BOM are not followed by present-day Mormons.

The Latter-Day Church follows the teachings of the BOM and the Bible.

Both are clear. Christ is God's Son.

As it has always been...

Quoted:
These all explicitly state there is only one God.

They all clearly show the one-purpose of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit.

Quoted:
Why do you think the present-day Mormon beliefs contradict the BOM? Should we conclude the BOM is wrong, or the present day Mormon leadership is in error? Which on is it?

There is only contradiction for those who purposefully try to find it... And ignore clear-cut BOM scripture that teaches the separation but one-in-purpose perfectly...

The BOM clearly states that God, His Son, and the Holy Spirit are one-in-purpose. There are sufficient scriptures to show that Christ is Gods Son, and the Holy Spirit is separate, but one-in-purpose...

3 Nephi 12:10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one;

3 Nephi 19: 23 And now Father, I pray unto thee for them, and also for all those who shall believe on their words, that they may believe in me, that I may be in them as thou, Father, art in me, that we may be one.

3 Nephi 9:15 Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.

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Yup, if they would just look at all those Bible verses with the mindset that they are one in purpose, all their confusion would go away.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:11:13 PM EDT

[#33]

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I'll take this with a grain of salt; however, this 'pastor friend' wouldn't be doing you any favors by not telling you the truth about the LDS and it's perversion of the gospel.

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I am a member of the PCA. However, there are no decent PCA churches where I live, so I attend a SBC church. We agree on the essential things and the non essentials...well they can be argued later. I'm sure there are others here I would feel comfortable attending. In my instance they must preach an Uncompromised Gospel, and have a solid youth program. I will not attend a church that is promoting homosexuality, women pastors or elders, or anything else that is unbiblical. I dislike praise and worship music but if I must, I will listen to it. I also wear a suit to church because I think God deserves the respect. So..now you know about me.

Ok, I have a confession to make, I *LOVE* praise and worship music. I've got a close friend (We fly hang gliders) who's a Calvary chapel pastor, he has guest praise and worship christian bands over at his church from time to time, I'll drop in when a band I like will be playing there. Cool thing is, everyone knows I'm Mormon, no one makes remarks, everyone acts like I expect them to, the worship of God and Christ takes place.

I'll take this with a grain of salt; however, this 'pastor friend' wouldn't be doing you any favors by not telling you the truth about the LDS and it's perversion of the gospel.

I figured that you would be too much of a tool to do anything but a tool, why would my pastor friend be act like a total HOLE like you do?

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:12:56 PM EDT

[#34]

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They are one God, in purpose. The Bible shows sevreal examples of separate individuals being one in purpose

The Bible says a husband and wife are one.

The Bible talks about how we can be one body in Christ:

5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

John 17 also discusses this concept.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one

So we're all the people "one" in body, or one in spirit and purpose?

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You never addressed my question, which was the BOM explicitly saying there is but one God. There was no reference to marriage, the body in Christ, etc, in the verses I gave you from your own BOM, but was in direct reference to God, Yet your doctrine states polytheism. Again, who is wrong, the BOM or the LDS leadership? Further, this has nothing to do with the KJV bible, but your own scriptures. Do not reason through the authorized KJV bible on the issue, but the BOM that contradicts modern LDS doctrine. Thank you.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:13:52 PM EDT

[#35]

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Imagine if Jews cared as much about the perversion of their religion known as Christianity as Christians care about Mormonism.

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I am a member of the PCA. However, there are no decent PCA churches where I live, so I attend a SBC church. We agree on the essential things and the non essentials...well they can be argued later. I'm sure there are others here I would feel comfortable attending. In my instance they must preach an Uncompromised Gospel, and have a solid youth program. I will not attend a church that is promoting homosexuality, women pastors or elders, or anything else that is unbiblical. I dislike praise and worship music but if I must, I will listen to it. I also wear a suit to church because I think God deserves the respect. So..now you know about me.

Ok, I have a confession to make, I *LOVE* praise and worship music. I've got a close friend (We fly hang gliders) who's a Calvary chapel pastor, he has guest praise and worship christian bands over at his church from time to time, I'll drop in when a band I like will be playing there. Cool thing is, everyone knows I'm Mormon, no one makes remarks, everyone acts like I expect them to, the worship of God and Christ takes place.

I'll take this with a grain of salt; however, this 'pastor friend' wouldn't be doing you any favors by not telling you the truth about the LDS and it's perversion of the gospel.

Imagine if Jews cared as much about the perversion of their religion known as Christianity as Christians care about Mormonism.

I gave M-1975 the opportunity to stop acting like a twit, he's decided to be a jerkwagon for his God, good for him, and THAT is exactly how I measure this guy and his so called walk with his BLOB GOD.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:15:18 PM EDT

[#36]

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Or atheists about religion.

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I am a member of the PCA. However, there are no decent PCA churches where I live, so I attend a SBC church. We agree on the essential things and the non essentials...well they can be argued later. I'm sure there are others here I would feel comfortable attending. In my instance they must preach an Uncompromised Gospel, and have a solid youth program. I will not attend a church that is promoting homosexuality, women pastors or elders, or anything else that is unbiblical. I dislike praise and worship music but if I must, I will listen to it. I also wear a suit to church because I think God deserves the respect. So..now you know about me.

Ok, I have a confession to make, I *LOVE* praise and worship music. I've got a close friend (We fly hang gliders) who's a Calvary chapel pastor, he has guest praise and worship christian bands over at his church from time to time, I'll drop in when a band I like will be playing there. Cool thing is, everyone knows I'm Mormon, no one makes remarks, everyone acts like I expect them to, the worship of God and Christ takes place.

I'll take this with a grain of salt; however, this 'pastor friend' wouldn't be doing you any favors by not telling you the truth about the LDS and it's perversion of the gospel.

Imagine if Jews cared as much about the perversion of their religion known as Christianity as Christians care about Mormonism.

Or atheists about religion.

Laughable that you felt you were qualified to make any comparison when people like you are responsible for turning anyone/everyone off from your faith.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:24:30 PM EDT

[#37]

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You never addressed my question, which was the BOM explicitly saying there is but one God. There was no reference to marriage, the body in Christ, etc, in the verses I gave you from your own BOM, but was in direct reference to God, Yet your doctrine states polytheism. Again, who is wrong, the BOM or the LDS leadership? Further, this has nothing to do with the KJV bible, but your own scriptures. Do not reason through the authorized KJV bible on the issue, but the BOM that contradicts modern LDS doctrine. Thank you.

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They are one God, in purpose. The Bible shows sevreal examples of separate individuals being one in purpose

The Bible says a husband and wife are one.

The Bible talks about how we can be one body in Christ:

5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

John 17 also discusses this concept.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one

So we're all the people "one" in body, or one in spirit and purpose?

You never addressed my question, which was the BOM explicitly saying there is but one God. There was no reference to marriage, the body in Christ, etc, in the verses I gave you from your own BOM, but was in direct reference to God, Yet your doctrine states polytheism. Again, who is wrong, the BOM or the LDS leadership? Further, this has nothing to do with the KJV bible, but your own scriptures. Do not reason through the authorized KJV bible on the issue, but the BOM that contradicts modern LDS doctrine. Thank you.

juni4ling answered that a few posts ago. No need to repeat him.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:24:56 PM EDT

[#38]

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Christ's Apostles would have been perfectly-worthy to utilize the Temple for worship of Christ.

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Christ's Apostles would have been perfectly-worthy to utilize the Temple for worship of Christ.

Even the highest possible authority says they couldn't have entered the temple... lds.org. These are "high standards set by the Lord" himself. I did not check for a "Rules for thee, not for me" exception clause, so I could be wrong.

Those who are worthy may enter the temple

All who are worthy and qualify in every way may enter the temple, there to be introduced to the sacred rites and ordinances.

Once you have some feeling for the value of temple blessings and for the sacredness of the ordinances performed in the temple, you would be hesitant to question the high standards set by the Lord for entrance into the holy temple.

You must possess a current recommend to be admitted to the temple. This recommend must be signed by the proper officers of the Church. Only those who are worthy should go to the temple. Your local bishop or branch president has the responsibility of making inquiries into your personal worthiness before you receive your temple ordinances. This interview is of great importance, for it is an occasion to explore with an ordained servant of the Lord the pattern of your life. If anything is amiss in your life, the bishop will be able to help you resolve it. Through this procedure, you can declare or can be helped to establish your worthiness to enter the temple with the Lord’s approval.

The interview for a temple recommend is conducted privately between the bishop and the Church member concerned. Here the member is asked searching questions about his or her personal conduct, worthiness, and loyalty to the Church and its officers. The person must certify that he or she is morally clean and is keeping the Word of Wisdom, paying a full tithing, living in harmony with the teachings of the Church, and not maintaining any affiliation or sympathy with apostate groups. The bishop is instructed that confidentiality in handling these matters with each interviewee is of the utmost importance.

Acceptable answers to the bishop’s questions will ordinarily establish the worthiness of an individual to receive a temple recommend. If an applicant is not keeping the commandments or there is something unsettled about his or her life that needs putting in order, it will be necessary to demonstrate true repentance before a temple recommend is issued.

After the bishop has conducted such an interview, the stake president likewise interviews you before you can receive your temple ordinances.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:27:52 PM EDT

[#39]

Attacking another person's belief/religion and belittling it/them screams of insecurity and pettiness.

Embarrassing.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:31:06 PM EDT

[#40]

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My desire is for souls to be saved and receive life and life more abundant from the one who is life - Jesus Christ. What I do is consistent with that.

You know that I believe Mormonism is false and those who will not repent of Mormonism (or ANY religion) and trust the Jesus of the Bible will die in their sins and spend eternity in the lake of fire.

I am going to do my very best to show anyone willing to listen, and even those who won't, that ANY religion won't save a single soul. You have been here for a long time and you have watched me go toe to toe, not only with Mormons, but also with others who are trusting their religion and its rituals to save them.

It would be totally uncaring of me to do otherwise.

The first step in showing a religious person that their religion won't save them is to compare their ("Christian") religion to Biblical Christianity. (If a person I am witnessing to has a religion that is something other than that, then I don't have to make that comparison.)

Here's an understatement for you - people don't like to have their "Christian" religion compared to Biblical Christianity. The religion, whichever one it is, falls far short. But if the comparison isn't made, then the difference cannot be seen. Mormonism changes the very nature of God - and then it requires the works of the individual. I have to deal with those issues. With a different "Christian" religion, the nature of God might be the same, but "grace" is received through participation in the religion's rituals instead of simply trusting fully in what Jesus did on the cross. Then that comparison has to be made. And it is rarely well received by religious people.

There is a reason that Stephen was stoned to death, James was killed with the sword, Peter was killed (supposedly crucified upside down) Paul was beheaded and John was exiled to the island of Patmos. I certainly don't include myself in their number, but the preaching of the cross - which if necessary, includes proclaiming that all religions are false - is not well received by religious people.

Anyway, the offer still stands. Think about it.

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Nah, I'll pass, I gave you the opportunity to knock off your attacks, right along with M-1975 and Dog Meat, the three of you (And I expect a few more) want to keep talking lots of crap, so, we're going to what we're going to do here now.

So, what's your next song? More of the same, along with the splutterings of your fellow fanatics?

Proclaim all the sheer nonesense you wish, you simply continue to look like a dolt, and this accomplished what? All you did was earn laughter, become a part of the spotlight of "This is what kind of foolish people dance around with rattle snakes, proclaim others damned, a few of your kind even led their followers to their deaths, i.e. Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc, they all babbled on about your BLOB GOD too.

Dudes like you are a dime a dozen, right along with your PRIME EXAMPLES of M-1975 and Dog Meat, the stink lingers, the use dismal, akin to a bucket of rotting fish.

You say it's your charter to worship your insane God to attack other faiths you don't agree with. What have you accomplished? Lots of lip service, sound and fury, signifying nothing, a tale told by..... (Shakespeare anyone?)

WE (LDS) aren't buying what you are selling, we know better, which is why WE are MORMON, keep on banging rocks together and blathering on. No one but you and your fellow fanatics care. I submit it is YOU and yours who are occultists, considering your tactics, which is how a cult would act. I reject your offer of plane fare, lodging and to attend your church, it would be a waste of time.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:35:04 PM EDT

[#41]

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juni4ling answered that a few posts ago. No need to repeat him.

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They are one God, in purpose. The Bible shows sevreal examples of separate individuals being one in purpose

The Bible says a husband and wife are one.

The Bible talks about how we can be one body in Christ:

5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

John 17 also discusses this concept.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one

So we're all the people "one" in body, or one in spirit and purpose?

You never addressed my question, which was the BOM explicitly saying there is but one God. There was no reference to marriage, the body in Christ, etc, in the verses I gave you from your own BOM, but was in direct reference to God, Yet your doctrine states polytheism. Again, who is wrong, the BOM or the LDS leadership? Further, this has nothing to do with the KJV bible, but your own scriptures. Do not reason through the authorized KJV bible on the issue, but the BOM that contradicts modern LDS doctrine. Thank you.

juni4ling answered that a few posts ago. No need to repeat him.

So in other words, when the BOM and KJV say God is one, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, there are no other gods, your reply simply is yes - there are no other gods; because all these verses that state there is but only one God, is just in reference to they are one - in purpose, and not Persons.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:35:11 PM EDT

[#42]

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Well, I thought God saying that no other gods were created before him or after him and that he is the ONLY God would be enough...
Much of what the New Testament apostles wrote of Christ in near exact references to what God said about the truth of Himself in the Old Testament.

>>God says of Himself to Isaiah:
Isaiah 40:3 A voice is calling, “Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.

Mark writes of Christ:
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

What Isaiah is told to write of God is what Mark is told to write of Christ. They are the same.

>>God tells in Joel:
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Paul speaks of Christ referencing how God references himself in Joel:
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

What God reveals of Himself in Joel so also Paul says is the EXACT same case with Christ. They are the same. The same God Joel said to call upon to be saved is the same God who Paul says to call upon in Christ. There is no duality.

>>Again, in Isaiah, God reveals:
Isaiah 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

John says of Christ in the EXACT same manner:
John 12:While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

John says Isaiah was speaking of Christ the same as that of the Lord...because they are one in the same.

>>Another revealing of God in Isaiah:
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

And Peter says of Christ the redeemer:
2 Peter 1:1 To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

John the Revelator tells us:
Revelation1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
And when John sees Christ, the Son of Man, in his dream:
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

So...God says he is the first and the last........and Jesus says he is the first and the last. I'd either say PICK ONE or believe they are indeed the SAME!

>>God speaks in Zechariah:
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

And David relays the suffering in his psalm:
Psalm 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

John tells us of Christ:
John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

And Revelation speaks of Christ again:
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

God says they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced and mourn for HIM. God would be pierced....Christ was pierced. It is the same.

You see...the Bible is so grand because it is so consistent from beginning to end. What God said of himself hundreds of years before Christ was sent is EXACTLY what was said of Christ while he was on this earth. They make no bones about it -- they are not two separate, distinct "gods".
God said there are to be NO other gods before him -- and Christ said that he is the Lord Christ Jesus. You cannot enter into Heaven without believing that he is Lord...but God says put no one before Him. How do you reconcile? THEY ARE THE SAME, as they have said all along.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Paul did not misspeak.

Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him a name which is above every name; that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

The name of Jesus was to be given as the name above ALL names, that he would be worshipped as LORD. As separate beings, this contradicts what God said about Him being the only God above all other names.

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I see you have a problem with the Greek texts.
We'll continue to some more non-Greek text then...

Isaiah 43

The Redeemer of Israel
43 But now, thus says the Lord, who created you, O Jacob,
And He who formed you, O Israel:
“Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by your name;
You are Mine.
2 When you pass through the waters, I will be with you;
And through the rivers, they shall not overflow you.
When you walk through the fire, you shall not be burned,
Nor shall the flame scorch you.
3 For I am the Lord your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I gave Egypt for your ransom,
Ethiopia and Seba in your place.
4 Since you were precious in My sight,
You have been honored,
And I have loved you;
Therefore I will give men for you,
And people for your life.
5 Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your descendants from the east,
And gather you from the west;
6 I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’
And to the south, ‘Do not keep them back!’
Bring My sons from afar,
And My daughters from the ends of the earth—
7 Everyone who is called by My name,
Whom I have created for My glory;
I have formed him, yes, I have made him.”
8 Bring out the blind people who have eyes,
And the deaf who have ears.
9 Let all the nations be gathered together,
And let the people be assembled.
Who among them can declare this,
And show us former things?
Let them bring out their witnesses, that they may be justified;
Or let them hear and say, “It is truth.”
10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
12 I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the Lord, “that I am God.
13 Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”
14 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“For your sake I will send to Babylon,
And bring them all down as fugitives—
The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships.
15 I am the Lord, your Holy One,
The Creator of Israel, your King.”
16 Thus says the Lord, who makes a way in the sea
And a path through the mighty waters,
17 Who brings forth the chariot and horse,
The army and the power
(They shall lie down together, they shall not rise;
They are extinguished, they are quenched like a wick):
18 “Do not remember the former things,
Nor consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing,
Now it shall spring forth;
Shall you not know it?
I will even make a road in the wilderness
And rivers in the desert.
20 The beast of the field will honor Me,
The jackals and the ostriches,
Because I give waters in the wilderness
And rivers in the desert,
To give drink to My people, My chosen.
21 This people I have formed for Myself;
They shall declare My praise.

And was was Christ to be called upon his birth?
Immanuel...which means "God with us".

So if God says he is the ONLY God and he is the ONLY Savior...and his Son was sent with the name "God with us"....where's the discrepancy?

When read in context, it is clear that the intent of the passage is to differentiate YHWH from the foreign gods and idols in the cultures surrounding the Jews.
Verses 11 - 13 are a continuation of the statement by God:
I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
I have revealed and saved and proclaimed—I, and not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "that I am God.
Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand. When I act, who can reverse it?" (NIV)
The context of this passage makes it clear that the issue being addressed is not one of general theology but rather a very specific and practical command to recognize YHWH as Israel's only god and the only god to be worshiped.

Looking at Genesis we see more then one at the creation:
26 ¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

Christ said: "For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

2 separate individuals. If they were the same, they would not have different wills.

In John 8: we see:
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

He can do nothing of himself. Again 2 individuals.

In John 5, we clearly see them as separate.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

So if they are the same, how can they be a judge bit not a judge? How come he could do nothing except for what he saw himself do?

The Bible clearly shows them as 2 separate beings over and over.

Well, I thought God saying that no other gods were created before him or after him and that he is the ONLY God would be enough...
Much of what the New Testament apostles wrote of Christ in near exact references to what God said about the truth of Himself in the Old Testament.

>>God says of Himself to Isaiah:
Isaiah 40:3 A voice is calling, “Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.

Mark writes of Christ:
Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

What Isaiah is told to write of God is what Mark is told to write of Christ. They are the same.

>>God tells in Joel:
Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Paul speaks of Christ referencing how God references himself in Joel:
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

What God reveals of Himself in Joel so also Paul says is the EXACT same case with Christ. They are the same. The same God Joel said to call upon to be saved is the same God who Paul says to call upon in Christ. There is no duality.

>>Again, in Isaiah, God reveals:
Isaiah 6:7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

John says of Christ in the EXACT same manner:
John 12:While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: 38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

John says Isaiah was speaking of Christ the same as that of the Lord...because they are one in the same.

>>Another revealing of God in Isaiah:
Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

And Peter says of Christ the redeemer:
2 Peter 1:1 To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.

John the Revelator tells us:
Revelation1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
And when John sees Christ, the Son of Man, in his dream:
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

So...God says he is the first and the last........and Jesus says he is the first and the last. I'd either say PICK ONE or believe they are indeed the SAME!

>>God speaks in Zechariah:
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

And David relays the suffering in his psalm:
Psalm 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

John tells us of Christ:
John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

And Revelation speaks of Christ again:
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

God says they shall look upon ME whom they have pierced and mourn for HIM. God would be pierced....Christ was pierced. It is the same.

You see...the Bible is so grand because it is so consistent from beginning to end. What God said of himself hundreds of years before Christ was sent is EXACTLY what was said of Christ while he was on this earth. They make no bones about it -- they are not two separate, distinct "gods".
God said there are to be NO other gods before him -- and Christ said that he is the Lord Christ Jesus. You cannot enter into Heaven without believing that he is Lord...but God says put no one before Him. How do you reconcile? THEY ARE THE SAME, as they have said all along.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Paul did not misspeak.

Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him a name which is above every name; that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

The name of Jesus was to be given as the name above ALL names, that he would be worshipped as LORD. As separate beings, this contradicts what God said about Him being the only God above all other names.

We could keep going back and forth posting scriptures for hours.

I noticed you didn't even reference the scriptures I posted showing them as separate, but instead, just posted several others that seem to show them as one. If you look at every scripture with the mindset that they are one in purpose, the ones I posted and you posted all work perfectly together.

We see Christ as a God also, so many of those scriptures you posted fit in that sense.

God the Father and God the son.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:36:33 PM EDT

[#43]

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Attacking another person's belief/religion and belittling it/them screams of insecurity and pettiness.

Embarrassing.

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Yup, that is what we have been saying about the mainstream Christian LDS-critics all along.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:38:46 PM EDT

[#44]

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:40:31 PM EDT

[#45]

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He didn't post until well-into the thread.

Long-after a small number of anti-Mormons had crapped the thread...

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.... had you been as accepting of me as I was willing to be of you from the start....

Remember your first post in this thread?

He didn't post until well-into the thread.

Long-after a small number of anti-Mormons had crapped the thread...

Oh, these guys had their opportunity to put this to bed with a you do your thing, we'll do ours. You do realize these are the same kind of people in our church history who committed disgusting atrocious acts upon our members in the name of God.

I am kinda turned off, when I asked Criley and his friends to just stop with the attacks on our church and faith, their answer was summed up their their faith requires them to, pretty fanatical.

Oh well, looks like this will continue down it's silly little path.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:41:00 PM EDT

[#46]

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We do love Christmas!

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Almost every Mormon I know has fully accepted Christmas in their heart,

Trying to keep it light. I have to LOL.

We do love Christmas!

In a HUGE way

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:41:10 PM EDT

[#47]

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The link you provided never addressed any of the plagiarisms I cited, but simply stated that other plagiarisms were "sometimes uncited quotes from Old Testament prophets on the brass plates"; all the plagiarisms I brought up, were from the NT, not OT. This failed to address my question, but actually brought in more doubt on the seriousness of the plagiarisms. Your rebuttal?

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The link you provided never addressed any of the plagiarisms I cited, but simply stated that other plagiarisms were "sometimes uncited quotes from Old Testament prophets on the brass plates"; all the plagiarisms I brought up, were from the NT, not OT. This failed to address my question, but actually brought in more doubt on the seriousness of the plagiarisms. Your rebuttal?

If you *honestly* think that the BOM was plagiarized, then there is not much we can do to help you... There is going to be serious agreement between the Bible and BOM because they testify of the same thing, and tell the same message...

And, if you look at the timeline of events, Christ visited the American Continent in the BOM, taught the people, established a Church, called leaders to receive revelation...

And the verse turns-up *after* that ~mostly matches a verse from the Bible.

It would fit the BOM narrative. It also testifies of the truthfulness of the Bible. No one can say, "The BOM is true," and not say, "The Bible is also true." Can't happen.

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Further, the link you provided stated that "The Book of Mormon emulates the language and style of the King James Bible because that is the scriptural style Joseph Smith, translator of the Book of Mormon, was familiar with"

David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses to the Book of Mormon, give the following details on the translation process:

So which is it? "Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man" or as the link you provided addressing the Elizabethan English - "The Book of Mormon emulates the language and style of the King James Bible because that is the scriptural style Joseph Smith, translator of the Book of Mormon, was familiar with"? Who translated it, God, or Man?

The interesting part in the link that was provided earlier is that the Dead Sea Scrolls were also originally translated (outside the LDS Church) in the same sort of language.

Why would God do it that way for the BOM? Because that is the language people understood when reading the scriptures.

It is also how we are instructed to pray...Link

I also appreciate you writing about the translation of the BOM. Notice that there is no mention. None. No mention of the Bible being present in the translation process... If you are to believe that it was done by the gift of God, and the translation was shown on a rock, then you are to believe their word that he had no other documents with him...

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Further, did you know that over 4,000 changes have been made to the original BOM since its original publication since 1830? Even articles in your own Ensign magazine concede that changes have been made. How do you reconcile these many changes with the testimony that the heavenly messenger speaking to Smith said the original translation was done by the power of God and "correct"?

The viable majority of "changes between the 1830 edition and the 1840 edition can be attributed to the fact that the original printing was done in the most frontier of frontier printing shops, and it contained *zero* punctuation. In addition, the publisher (not Smith) took liberties on certain words in the printing that were fixed in the 1840's edition.

Gods word still uses man.

Here is the kicker...

We can look at the 1830's edition. We know that Smith supervised the 1839 edition. We know that. I have seen the printers manuscript in Smiths own writing in a museum that was open to the public...

We have the "source" documents.

We can track *every* word, every change, every period, every comma. We have the "source" documents.

Yeah, the vast majority of "changes" are minor punctuation, and spelling fixes... And many early Church fathers, Martyr, Dionysius, and Origen each -separately- stated that Bible parts were removed... And each translation of the Bible contains potentially thousands of "changes" as well...

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How do you reconcile all these changes with the testimony knowing that the translation process used a "see stone", and was done by individual characters and specific words? How was the mormon god wrong and it needed to be changed multiple times over time if it was literally done word for word, character by character "and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct"?

Smith called it a "seer" (see*r*) stone... From "Prophet, seer, revelator." (1 Sam 9: 9 Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to inquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)

It does not bother me that Smith used a stone.

It does not bother me that Moses used a staff in performing miracles.

Does not bother me a little bit.

I believe Smith was a prophet. I believe Moses was a prophet.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:42:05 PM EDT

[#48]

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So in other words, when the BOM and KJV say God is one, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, there are no other gods, your reply simply is yes - there are no other gods; because all these verses that state there is but only one God, is just in reference to they are one - in purpose, and not Persons.

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They are one God, in purpose. The Bible shows sevreal examples of separate individuals being one in purpose

The Bible says a husband and wife are one.

The Bible talks about how we can be one body in Christ:

5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

John 17 also discusses this concept.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one

So we're all the people "one" in body, or one in spirit and purpose?

You never addressed my question, which was the BOM explicitly saying there is but one God. There was no reference to marriage, the body in Christ, etc, in the verses I gave you from your own BOM, but was in direct reference to God, Yet your doctrine states polytheism. Again, who is wrong, the BOM or the LDS leadership? Further, this has nothing to do with the KJV bible, but your own scriptures. Do not reason through the authorized KJV bible on the issue, but the BOM that contradicts modern LDS doctrine. Thank you.

juni4ling answered that a few posts ago. No need to repeat him.

So in other words, when the BOM and KJV say God is one, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one, there are no other gods, your reply simply is yes - there are no other gods; because all these verses that state there is but only one God, is just in reference to they are one - in purpose, and not Persons.

They stand together as one God, whose purpose together is to help all of us overcome sin, learn of the truth, and return to the Father's presence. Each is a separate being, that has their separate role, but they act in unison, as one.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:42:53 PM EDT

[#49]

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In a HUGE way

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Almost every Mormon I know has fully accepted Christmas in their heart,

Trying to keep it light. I have to LOL.

We do love Christmas!

In a HUGE way

Stupid auto correct on my phone always does that for some reason.

Posted: 8/29/2015 11:43:13 PM EDT

[#50]

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You all give as good as you get.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

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.... had you been as accepting of me as I was willing to be of you from the start....

Remember your first post in this thread?

He didn't post until well-into the thread.

Long-after a small number of anti-Mormons had crapped the thread...

You all give as good as you get.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Yes, we do.

Sadly, we don't want to, I suggested earlier both sides of this simply adopt a live and let live without the crap talking about our church and faith, but no one on your side of the table was interested, including you, so, this continues, I guess that's just how it's going to be.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Millions of people lived and died never knowing about the correct God. What happened to them? (Page 71 of 91)

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