OK thanks.  I spent 2013 living in Utah.  Got to know a lot of Mormons.  Nicest people on the planet as far as I'm concerned.  They can help me load mags and burn powder any day and all day.  If i'm going to hell for that then i reckon so...

Finally something we agree on.

Your right.  The Mormon prophets and apostles themselves  have said, from the foundation of the church until now, that not everything they say is doctrine.

I'll  let them be the authority on that.  

Maybe you should too.

So they admitted they didn't know what they were talking about?




If I had a pastor say the same crazy stuff they did, then turn around and say, "oh that wasn't doctrinal", I'd leave the church and put the word out; because it's simply trying to not take responsibility for what was said.


 

Oh, BULLSHIT! You've been making WAR on my Church, what church do YOU go to? Don't side step it, just tell us.

That's to be expected from a lamer who tosses "Culstist" every time he gets his ass kicked in this thread. So, sunshine, what church do YOU go to?

Says the guy who wanders in here, drops trow and take a huge crap in here everytime, it's actually your posts that from the beginning that turned the thread from discussion to fight. LIke I said, what church do you go to? Are you afraid? Well?

So, was everything that Moses ,Noah,  the apostles, or any other biblical prophet spoke doctrine?

I guess denying Christ is OK because Peter did it.  

What about the prophet that lied in 1 Kings 13.  I guess lying is OK then because a prophet did it.

You are trying to make prophets and apostles into infallible Gods.  They are mortal men who have opinions and do error. Even in the Bible we see that.

So I guess you plan on putting down your Bible?

There goes CRYley again....

Oh really? As preoccupied with the Church named AFTER JESUS CHRIST, you have a lot smack to talk, but yet the caption in red is where you lay it out as your defense? Bullshit! What church do you go to? Are you ashamed of your church that you don't want to say it's name and where it's at? Hey, maybe we want to pop in there on a Sunday and here a sermon, you don't want us to do that? I mean I thought you were trying to save us, why don't you want us knowing where you fellowship?  I mean I'm not ashamed of MY church, you know I am a Mormon, want the address of my ward building so you can make Sunday's meeting? I want to know where YOU go, maybe I want to pop in.

That's your retort, preacher man?  You sure do make an ass out of your mentally ill God who talks to himself, has 3 persons stuffed in his head, wanders around in ambivalence and has a heard of the excruciatingly mindless staggering along behind him as if off of the set "Walking Dead".  Wait, OMG! It's that simple, isn't it? You're ZOMBIES!

So, you admit that you're full of shit?

 
Here's the thing: Peter knew he was wrong, repented, and eventually gave his life for Christ. The prophet in 1 Kings 13 wasn't really a Godly prophet (sounds familiar...). Yes all earthly humanity in the Bible, save Christ, were sinners; but a slip-up is not the issue here. Your prophets and apostles claimed that sin is God's command (i.e. adultery and polyandry, blacks in the priesthood, becoming like God, etc.), and proclaim what they believe to be doctrinal, but is later changed by the church to cover embarrassing statements, like Brigham Young's racism or Smith's false prophecies. Claiming it's "not doctrine" is just a cop-out; you can't stand by the people you claim to follow.


I see the pattern here: when you can't argue the Bible, you either attempt to undermine it, or distract from it. When confronted with the bad conduct of the LDS founders, you make excuses for it. When confronted with embarrassing statements from LDS leaders, you claim it's "not doctrinal", even though they have more authority than you. You even try to claim the same beliefs as Christians, then mock them later. It's really a poor witness.

Again, where do you go to Church? Are you ashamed to tell us? Like I said, maybe I'll want to go check out your Sunday services if I am in town, I love to go to new places.

Somethings you didn't know about Mormons.

When we're visiting out of town with non-LDS members, we attend your services at your church quite comfortably, our thought it, if you love God, love Jesus, we expect the holy spirit to be present also, we're quite comfortable there. We'll sing along with the praise and worship, we'll crack open our "Scripts" (We use QUADS) to the KJV Bible and follow along reading as the sermon is given, we don't burst into flames when we cross the threshold of your churches.

You do realize, you can do the same with ours, right?

Serious question....why do you go to church if it doesn't matter?

I am a member of the PCA.  However, there are no decent PCA churches where I live, so I attend a SBC church.  We agree on the essential things and the non essentials...well they can be argued later.  I'm sure there are others here I would feel comfortable attending.  In my instance they must preach an Uncompromised Gospel, and have a solid youth program.  I will not attend a church that is promoting homosexuality, women pastors or elders, or anything else that is unbiblical. I dislike praise and worship music but if I must, I will listen to it.  I also wear a suit to church because I think God deserves the respect.  So..now you know about me.

So, did anyone else get out to a high school football game tonight?

My 2nd oldest son had his opening game tonight against one of their traditional non-conference opponents that is actually 3 divisions above them.  They beat them tonight for the first time in school history by 6 points in overtime.  

Great game.

Yes, this question begs answering too.

Ok, I have a confession to make, I *LOVE*  praise and worship music.  I've got a close friend (We fly hang gliders) who's a Calvary chapel pastor, he has guest praise and worship christian bands over at his church from time to time, I'll drop in when a band I like will be playing there. Cool thing is, everyone knows I'm Mormon, no one makes remarks, everyone acts like I expect them to, the worship of God and Christ takes place.

Nah, I actually started to change the brake pads on my Harley, but then it got dark before I could finish. Oh well, I know what I will be doing in the morning.

I didn't say anything that would lead to that question.  I never said "it doesn't matter if a Christian goes to church or not."

I said that the Christians in this thread are preaching the same Jesus - of the Holy Bible... the same gospel - that Jesus died for our sins, was buried and rose again... that we preach salvation by grace alone through faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ... and that we oppose Mormonism's attempt to claim that it represents Christianity for a multitude of reasons.

I said that we were questioned by Mormons on OUR CHURCHES and that we never felt the need to ask one another where we go to church because it is obvious to us that we are all speaking as one because we represent the Jesus of the Bible.

The ONE TRUE CHURCH is comprised of ALL individuals who trust in the Jesus of the Bible - His death, His burial, His resurrection... HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS that he imputes to believers - without adding any rituals, works, sacraments or ordinances, etc. to aid in their own salvation.

With religious people the religion is WHAT'S important.  That is why religious people always self-identify WITH THEIR RELIGION.  They say, "Im a _______________" where the blank is filled in with the name of the religion.

That might be why we were asked the question in the first place, dunno.

But to a Christian JESUS is WHO is important.  Christians might describe Christianity as a religion within the context of a particular discussion for a particular reason...  and because that is how the world describes it...

But what we have is a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ.  And since He has the name that is above every other name, why would a Christian want to be called anything else?

The name of the church we attend is so far down the list on what's important ... if it is even on the list at all.

But I never said or implied that it doesn't matter if a Christian goes to church or not.

Yes precisely.  Our focus is on the Lord Jesus Christ and that is EXACTLY how and why we know Mormonism is entirely false and presents a counterfeit Jesus and a counterfeit gospel.

Now here is an interesting thing...  we would welcome you to visit our church, even if every member had read every post that you have made in this thread...  precisely because we would love to see you repent of religion and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ - the real one mind you - the Jesus of the Bible, who can save your soul.  

And after the service you would be free to speak your mind and try and convince others to become Mormons.  I bet you would have about 50 different men more than willing to have an exchange with you.  Not that time would allow for that, but there would be plenty of people to talk to.  They, too, would love to see you trust the Lord.

On the other hand, I am not convinced that I would be welcome to attend one of your meetings if all my posts in this thread were read by those who attend your church ....  and I am quite sure your leadership would not let me speak one on one with your members and explain the differences between Mormonism and Christianity and try to get them to trust the authentic Jesus of the Bible.  But, I suppose that is beside the point.

Now, if you want to take me up on it,  I am willing to buy you a plane ticket, pay for your hotel room, provide you with transportation and meals.

We can even spend some time at my range and I will supply the guns and ammo.

All you have to do is say the word.  All I would ask is you control the profanity for a few days, which I am sure you would be more than willing to do.

Criley,

Ya know, I am sure you're heart is in the right place, my ONLY complaint about you is your attacks on on everything regarding my Church, had you been as accepting of me as I was willing to be of you from the start, you and I would have never butted heads.

When I DO attend other (NON-LDS) Churches with friends, I don't "recruit" or act as a missionary, it's not my purpose for going.  That just seems "off", to behave that way, just like I wouldn't expect you to act in my Church in the manner you have in this thread.

How you and I conduct ourselves in this thread, you know, there's a way to fix this quarrel between us, right?  Just don't bad mouth my church, my faith or things about it, I am NOT trying to recruit you, offer you a Book of Mormon, I'm not trying to change your life. If I say I love Jesus, just take that at face value. If I say "Praise God", take it at face value, I do that when you do it.

You give US (Mormons) room to breathe without bashing us, and we won't find quarrel with you. Why not start now?

I offer the same thing to M-1975 too, we don't have to brawl, none of you have to bash our church, talk crap about it, mock it, etc.  In truth, not myself nor my fellow Mormons in the thread wanted to fight with any of you in this thread, that said, we are easily provoked when our faith is attacked. Minus this, is this fight necessary?

Remember your first post in this thread?

 
Not to mention the comment about holding me underwater.

I'll take this with a grain of salt; however, this 'pastor friend' wouldn't be doing you any favors by not telling you the truth about the LDS and it's perversion of the gospel.

 




 

Imagine if Jews cared as much about the perversion of their religion known as Christianity as Christians care about Mormonism.



 

Or atheists about religion.

 

Ha, good job.
Just kidding, that doesn't make any sense. You fail.
Its just ironic to me that members of a religion which co-opted a previous religion freak out about someone trying to co-opt theirs.



What's good for the goose isn't good for the gander, apparently.



 

As if the Jewish religion of today bore any resemblance to the Jewish religion as defined by the Old Testament.

You run on so much about science and you still show how ignorant you are. Man can never use science to replicate anything with enough data sets to prove anything. They can only do so X number of times, which gives them a finite data set, but nothing more. 100 experiments with the same result would only show that in those 100 instances, the hypothesis proved positive. It doesn't mean every infinite number of scenarios would turn out the same way -- but that's what we consider "fact".

I've seen your arguments enough on here, and they are rather tiring. You simply counter what other people say by insisting the opposite, and expect people to believe it. I gather you like to argue more than anything.

No, believing in a God who controls the universe isn't "believing in myself". Intelligent argument there. I'll project anything on you that you substantiate a need for...but you shouldn't get mad, buddy. In your beliefs, you're a random glorified ape who has no purpose here, remember? What does this discussion matter to you? No one can be correct when no truth exists.

Actually you fail; the difference is that the Jews are waiting for the Messiah, as stated in the Tanakh, but even the Tanakh states that they'll reject Him. Early Christians were the Jews that accepted their Messiah; I don't know if they taught you this in Catholic School, but the entire Bible, Tanakh and NT, is about the Messiah. And Christians do not replace the Jews, we are grafted in with them.

By contrast the Mormons inject "another testament" that isn't stated in either the Tanakh or the NT, teaching doctrines that run counter to both.




The irony is that you're trying to co-opt the thread in order to further your own form of evangelism, based on half-baked generalities disguised as pseudo-intellectualism.


 

My desire is for souls to be saved and receive life and life more abundant from the one who is life - Jesus Christ.  What I do is consistent with that.

You know that I believe Mormonism is false and those who will not repent of Mormonism (or ANY religion) and trust the Jesus of the Bible will die in their sins and spend eternity in the lake of fire.

I am going to do my very best to show anyone willing to listen, and even those who won't, that ANY religion won't save a single soul.  You have been here for a long time and you have watched me go toe to toe, not only with Mormons, but also with others who are trusting their religion and its rituals to save them.

It would be totally uncaring of me to do otherwise.

The first step in showing a religious person that their religion won't save them is to compare their ("Christian") religion to Biblical Christianity.  (If a person I am witnessing to has a religion that is something other than that,  then I don't have to make that comparison.)

Here's an understatement for you - people don't like to have their "Christian" religion compared to Biblical Christianity.  The religion, whichever one it is, falls far short.  But if the comparison isn't made, then the difference cannot be seen.  Mormonism changes the very nature of God - and then it requires the works of the individual.  I have to deal with those issues.  With a different "Christian" religion, the nature of God might be the same, but "grace" is received through participation in the religion's rituals instead of simply trusting fully in what Jesus did on the cross.  Then that comparison has to be made.  And it is rarely well received by religious people.

There is a reason that Stephen was stoned to death, James was killed with the sword, Peter was killed (supposedly crucified upside down)  Paul was beheaded and John was exiled to the island of Patmos.  I certainly don't include myself in their number, but the preaching of the cross - which if necessary, includes proclaiming that all religions are false - is not well received by religious people.

Anyway, the offer still stands.  Think about it.

He didn't post until well-into the thread.

Long-after a small number of anti-Mormons had crapped the thread...

Yet when you resort to telling flay out lies in an attempt to discredit another religion, you lose all credibility about your own.

If you actually had a problem with actual Mormon doctrine and shared the actual Mormon doctrine, without twisting and slandering it, that would be fine.  I think most of the LDS on here would care less.  

It's when you resort to the lies or pull up some second hand error filled talk and push it as Mormons' core doctrine,  that we have a problem.  

You claim God is all powerful and merciful and just out of one side of your mouth, then out the other claim he is so petty, unmerciful, and unjust, that he would damn someone who accepts him and does his will, because of a difference in interpretation.  

You yourself admits God looks at the heart.

Almost every Mormon I know has fully accepted Christmas in their heart, and obey his commandments out of love for him,  not to earn a reward.   As you said, that is what is most important.   We believe that too.  Everything else is secondary.

Your claim that "ohhhh, it is a different Jesus,  is nothing but a load of horse shi*.  It is the same Jesus, just as many in the earliest stages of Christianity saw him.  We just don't follow the Jesus created by men at politically charged councils by way of vote.

Trying to keep it light. I have to LOL.

We do love Christmas!

If a Jehovah's Witness comes into the thread, we're in for 70 more pages of arguing...

Jk.

You all give as good as you get.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

The nature of your god, who is a man.  Who is somehow exalted....

And my God, who is the God of the Bible ... who has always been God, who cannot progress because He needs no progression... who can create all that is out of nothing by the power of His word... and can sustain all that He has created by the power of his word... My God, who has never even been tempted to sin, much less commit the act ...

Your exalted man and my God are not the same.

Your religion teaches you that you can become like your god, your "Heavenly Father."

For the sake of discussion let's say you do an extremely good job of obeying Mormonism's laws and ordinances and YOU become a god and YOU get a planet (which, Kelty, is synonymous with "world" or an "earth").

When your children ask you, "Extractr, have you ever told a lie"?  Are you going to lie to them and say no?  When your children ask you, "Extractr, have did you ever take something that belonged to someone else"?   Are you going to lie to them and say no?  When your children ask you, "Extractr, did you ever look at a woman and lust after her"?  Are you going to lie to them and say no?

In Mormonism, gods are sinners.

You might not want to face it, but it is true.

When I tell you that your religion diminishes God and exalts man, I am 100% accurate.

We have not rolled-over in the face of antagonism, if that is what you mean...

I have caught a small handful of folks outright lying about the beliefs and practices of the LDS Church.

Dogface? Didn't post in the thread until long after the anti's had showed their angst...

My great aunt, by marriage was a JW, and my great uncle was Protestant. They were always married, never had kids, and went to their own churches on Sunday...but they never did do much for birthdays or Christmas at all. Always was odd to me...although, I suppose I can understand not celebrating that stuff to an extent.

More of your "verbatim" quotes, that were never actually said?

You keep sayin all these things that we belief and teach.  The problem is, you are flat out lying.  A second hand error filled account from almost 200 years ago does not define what we believe or teach.   Maybe if you studied our actual doctrines and belefs, you would realize that.

Jesus was a man and is now an an exalted God, yet you have no problem with that.

LIEly

Every verse you quoted uses the word hieron (Strong's G2411), which covers the entire temple mount complex. Only males of the priestly class were allowed in the temple (Holy Place & Holy of Holies) Greek - naós (G3485).

Read how every interaction you quoted turned out. Apostles threatened. Arrested. Targeted for ambush and murder.


Had not the temple system signaled it had also fallen into apostasy by not acknowledging Jesus as messiah or the gospel as preached by the apostles?

Well, just had an hour long conversation in my front porch with two LDS sisters.  They were very friendly.  Had a good discussion with them on different topics.  One thing that concerned me was when I asked them if they found out that JS was making it up, what would they do.  They replied be lost because the church is everything.  So I asked what if just what he said was wrong and Jesus was still real.  Then it changed to we love Jesus.  I am concerned because if someone proved to me that John Calvin was wrong, I would say OK and it wouldn't make my belief in Jesus waver one bit.  They did give me a Book of Mormon and I friendly like hit them with questions they said were very deep and theological.. I offered them shade and water.  Nice girls and If they were sincere they will be back and try to answer my questions.  Either way I enjoyed the interaction.

No, I keep quoting the Mormon founder, Mormon apostles and other Mormon leaders.

It appears you have no idea what Mormonism teaches if you do not understand that it holds that

A) God is an exalted man - who is described as being just like you are now in time past and

B) you, like you are right now, can become just like your "God" is now, in the future.

And your statement about Jesus doesn't describe the Biblical Jesus, it describes the Mormon Jesus.

Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh.  God the Word - the Lord Jesus Christ - left heaven and came to earth and dwelt in a body of human flesh so God could pay for the sins of men.  

Jesus was not a man who "progressed" and became a god.

Men do not "progress" and become gods.  Not in Christianity.  There is only one God - three persons - one God.  Just like one egg is yolk, white and shell.  Just like one compound H2O can be vapor, solid or liquid.  Just like one human is spirit, soul and body.

And God has always been God, and does not change.  He does not "progress."  And, again, there is only One.  Not dozens, hundreds, thousands, millions, etc.

One God and one God only.

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Word = God
Word = Jesus (became flesh)
God = Jesus

John 10:30-33, "I and the Father are one." 31 The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Col. 2:9, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form."

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Yes the Temple has always been a sacred place. More people have access to the Temple now in the Latter-Day Church, compared to the ancient Church. But it is limited to Gods-chosen.

The point that needed to be made was that Temple worship took place by Christ's Apostles *after* the ascension of Christ. That is the point.



The Jews might have fallen into apostasy... While Christ's Apostles would have been perfectly-worthy to utilize the Temple for worship of Christ.

If there was no-need for Temple worship, then  Paul offering sacrifice in the Temple (Acts 21:26, Num 6:14-18) makes absolutely no sense.

If there was no-need for Temple worship, then why does Paul receive a vision of Christ in the Temple  (Acts 22:14-21).

Christ's Apostles continued to use the Temple *after* Christ's ascension. Miracles (including worship, ordinances, and revelation from God) took place *there* -after- Christ's ascension... That is my point.

The Jews the "true church" after Christ's ascension? Nope. The "true church" was the pre-creed Church led (on earth) by the Apostles.... But it is an interesting point in the scriptures that *after* Christ established the Church, his chosen continued to use the Temple for what Temples are used for: worship, revelation, and ordinances.

More information, if you are interested: Link

Link

Link

Link

Here are the some of the so-called "lies" ...

1.)  I stated that the term "another testament of Jesus Christ" proved that the BOM was false because no other testament could ever come into play because Jesus died ONCE for sinners, never to die again.  That took care of "testaments" because, as Jesus said (and we all know it's true) no testament comes into force without the death of the testator.  The Bible says that the covenant that was established with Jesus' death is the ETERNAL COVENANT.

Extractr called me a liar for stating the above.  He argued that Mormonism holds that "testament" in "another testament of Jesus Christ" doesn't mean "testament" in the sense that I described (and my used matched Jesus' use) or a new covenant - which would mean the same thing - but was only used to mean something to the effect of, "we're telling more of the story."  

I then quoted the Mormon D&C where it specifically states that the BOM is a NEW COVENANT.

But I am the liar, you see.

2.) I stated that "Heavenly Father is a sinner.  Extractr called me a liar again.  I then quoted Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt, who said exactly that.  Extractr said Pratt was excommunicated (and he was, because Joseph Smith tried to seduce his wife and Pratt didn't take a liking to it).  Of course Extractr didn't mention the reason, nor did he mention that Pratt was reinstated as a Mormon, and not only that, was reinstated as an apostle of the church.  Some of his writings were disavowed, but Extractr could not prove that Pratt's statement about Mormon gods being sinners was disavowed.  Which makes sense since Mormonism teaches that the sinners of today can become gods of tomorrow.  

But I am the liar you see.

3.) Along those lines, and based on responses to posts in this thread I posed the questions... Which planet will get the vulgar god?  Which planet will get the flippant god?  Which planet will get the irrational god?  ...

Kelty then called me a liar because because Mormons who progress to exaltation don't get planets.

I then quoted Brigham Young, who explicitly taught just that.  But he didn't use the term "planets" he used the words "worlds" like ours and "earths" like ours.  He used those words as synonyms for planet.

But I am the liar, you see.

I could go on.  And on.  And on.  And on.

But I will spare readers.  Those three examples should be sufficient to get the idea across.

You can be 100% accurate in description of Mormon doctrine and theology, and if the doctrines and theologies are embarrassing to Mormonism, you very well might be described as a liar.

I know I was.

A-A-A-men!