I can understand why a lot of people are atheists. To have true faith and find God isn't easy. I still have my faults and ask questions on a daily basis. Not on Jesus, the life, death, and resurrection, but some things don't make sense. It's why I'm always trying to learn and become more faithful to God. I wish I wasn't so weak.

Why did God have to kill his son to forgive mankind for original sin? Couldn't he have just said I forgive you?

If God is all knowing then he knows all that will happen. So what would be the point of the world? Wouldn't it be to him like watching reruns?

Why did he actually speak to a few people thousands of years ago and then clam up?

Which religion is the true religion?

Honestly...so the hell what?

Yeah, they believe a lot of stuff we don't believe, but so what? Seriously, in 2015...does it matter? I don't think it does, anymore.

You and I are perfectly free to live with non-belief, with nary a consequence. Oh sure, there will be an occasional skirmish, what with a nativity scene, or a set of Ten Commandments in front of a courthouse (does any sane person give a fuck about this shit?), but are you and I really persecuted in light of these stupid things? I should think not.

Dude, I think we're fine.

I'm not aware of the logic and science which leads to believing that a thinking, self-willed machine, with memory, computing power, multiple layers upon layers of information (ie. Information meaning - code, syntax, semantics, pragmatics, apobetics; which is only conveyed by matter/energy, it isn't not produced by physical laws), enormous information stored in the most compact and efficient way, made up of a vast assortment of interworking, interdependent machines; with cameras, microphones, speakers, haptic feedback, motors, a whole array of data collecting equipment and software to run; systems reproducing systems on both a microscopic and macroscopic level; a machine able to design and build things and sit on a crude silicon based computer using a comparatively inefficient language and produce new information and convey it using it's will (both being the products of mind) and type out a message saying he believes "science and logic" (or rather, philosophical materialism and stories based on it, ie. Big Bang Cosmology and the General Theory of Evolution); that this all just "happened", that's the "truth".
Edited.

To answer OPs question, I spend much of my time being logical and analytical.  It's has been very encouraging to my faith that Jesus rose from the grave, and that Naturalistic explanations fail in explaining this and many other phenomenon in science and every day life.  

Logic also tells me believing in Naturalism/evolution, as OP would seem to, leads to believing the brain is an accident and OP's very thoughts and experiences cannot be trusted to ascertain truth.  Such "logic and science" is self-refuting.

I hope and pray OP that you'll seek your Maker while you can.  Consider that if you were space-dust, and there was no eternal punishment, God didn't need to send His Son to die on a cross for you.  Jesus did come, the grave was empty, the Apostles died confessing that they ate and drank with Him; James, his unbelieving brother, saw Him risen and believed; and lastly, Saul of Tarsus saw Jesus on the road to Damascus, and he went from persecutor to martyr.  I would urge you to consider this historic evidence, and the verses below.

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight." - 1 Corinthians 3:19
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your... mind." - Matthew 22:37
"..but test everything; hold fast what is good" - 1 Thessalonians 5:21

P.s. These are some good books to logic on:
Without Excuse - Werner Gitt
Genetic Entropy - John C Sanford
The Biotic Message - Walter Remine
Darwin's Black Box - Michael Behe

You are basically saying that because something happened differently from what a doctor said would happen then it must be because of God. Maybe the doctor just overlooked something. If I was a structural engineer designing a bridge. I calculate that the bridge can hold 100 thousand pounds. The bridge ends up being able to hold 150 thousand pounds. Is that because God is at work or is it simply because I miscalculated the weight it could hold?

I'm not a non-believer. Just not a good one. I don't care about the various disputes between dogma. I find it sad that people in general don't have a thirst for knowledge. I've always wanted to do and try new things. I just felled a big ass tree with a 40+ year old chain saw. It wasn't even my tree. I just wanted to learn how to do it. But yeah, no skin off my back if they are content with what they know.

Though then I wish those people would STFU when it comes to topics that do require critical thinking. Don't ignore the literal mountains of geological evidence and the hundreds of years of the development of geology and tell me the earth isn't ancient because you did some "ciphering" from a book that never intended to tell you the age of the earth.

You can't measure God. The level of what is guided and what is left to chance is something for philosophy. The fact is an omnipotent being could have started a process 14 billion years ago, knowing it would lead to this moment. To the observer you won't find any guidance or magical will being imposed. But at the same time, if God willed it to happen, then it happened. Evolution is nothing but the study of how we got here from where we were. There was no magical point of creation of man. When you create a universe full of laws where life thrives under the right conditions, you don't need it. God could be manually keeping every atom in your body from flying apart through his will. Or he could have written laws that govern the universe to ensure your atoms stay where they are.

Hmmm Let's go with this one.

but, but the OP is asking a serious question in search of understanding. surely he is not being an insulting troll.  how can anyone take his statements any other way.

Science can't (not presently anyway) explain everything.  

A theory is not an explanation.  A theory is a (sometimes semi) educated guess.  The quality of scientific thinking is often lacking (global warming anyone????  Handguns and semi auto weapons are the cause of violence in the US????)

I've seen/experienced things I can't explain, and no one else can explain them.  A couple of those things I saw or experienced were seen and experienced by other people as well.  Oh hell, here they are, two of them anyway.

One day, while driving up on the mountain to my in-laws house I saw a guy on a big horse in a confederate officers uniform in the road in front of me.  That section of the road was used by the confederate forces marching from Lewisburg, WV to the battle at Carnifex Ferry (I didn't know that at the time).  The guy wheeled around on the horse and disappeared into the brush on the side of the road before I got there.  I assumed he was one of those civil war re-enactors out playing around and I got out of the car to look into the woods to see him.  No one/nothing was there.  There was a 4 or 5 ft. high bank beside the road and a very steep hillside above the road at the point where he appeared to enter the brush.  I asked my father-in-law which one of his neighbors (they knew everyone that lived out that road) was into the civil war re-enactor thing.  He looked at me funny and said he didn't know anyone that did that.

A few years later, my mother-in-law say the same thing at that same point in the road.

After my father-in-law died, I was sitting on the couch watching TV and smelled his chewing tobacco so strongly it was like he was sitting there next to me and opened up a pouch.  I never told the rest of my in-laws as they are superstitious anyway.  A couple years later, my wife and I were sitting on the couch (different couch by then) and I smelled it again.  I didn't say anything that time either.  We were watching Buck Rogers.  Over twenty years later I started to tell my wife about it and she finished the story for me.  Yes, she'd smelled the tobacco, too.  She remembered that we were watching Buck Rogers and everything.  I asked her why she hadn't said anything and she told me she was afraid I'd think she was crazy.  She asked me why I'd never said anything and I told her I didn't want to scare her and her mom.

I can't explain any of the above.  No one else can.  When to people "imagine" the same event, or the same experience, it isn't imagination anymore.

Just because science can't explain it, doesn't mean it never happened.

On any level of reasoned thinking.....that is childish babble.

 

You don't think what Islamist are doing to Christians is persecution?  Do you not think that what happened with the Jewish people by Christians is persecution?  And lets not forget the middle ages with the crusades, etc.  And Please do not confuse me with an Islamist sympathizer because I am far from it.  It's not persecution but most Christians I know look down upon people who not only don't believe in Christianity but look further down if they don't belong or believe in there particular version of Christianity.

God is a just God and will not accept compromise. Sin carries with it a punishment. Why follow a God that acts like a politician, changing his views to fit the day and waffling on principle?

Man is dirty and unacceptable to God because of sin. But because of His love for us, He offered His Son as a perfect sacrifice, an atonement, a purchase of redemption. It is ours to take. It is a standing offer with no expiration until Christ returns.

I have a question. Why does everyone think that their religion is right. Do you know how many religions there has been in the past say 15k years. Another thing that boggles me is most are willing to kill or be killed because they think their right. To me most religions are a good way to live your life, like the 10 commandments.

OK, we should probably leave it at that.

OP, nobody here will answer your question properly, because that's not the right question you should be asking.  Anyone who says they have the definitive answer to the Great Question probably doesn't. Many will seek to convince you one way or the other for their own reasons and their own emotions, not for yours.

Continue to doubt and question religion, and perhaps even "logic" itself, but do it outside of the Atheist vs. Christian battlefield.  If you get more confused by things, if you realize more and more that you know less and less about the universe around you, you'll start to ask the right questions.  Don't be trapped by categories:  believer, atheist, agnostic, etc., or you risk attaching yourself to another person's journey on their own path, rather than traveling your own.

I'm thankful for the freedom to try to figure all this out for myself, and not be forced to pick a side in this stupid fight of dead-ends, circular reasoning, and repeat arguments.  Use your innate, natural freedoms and liberties, and do the same.

well - logically if you believe something to be right, its pretty much mutually exclusive of all other religions being right, and therefore you believe them to be wrong.  If you dont know what religion (if any) is right, then you may find yourself an Ignostic.  So all theists, by definition, beleive themselves to be right, and all other religions to be wrong.

I agree, however, given the staggering number of religions and adherents that anyone could look at the totality of it and say "my group is right, and everyone else is wrong" is boggling.  Equally boggling that the Atheist is given so much grief for taking the next logical step and wondering "if the majority of the religious adherents in the world are wrong, by the very definition of what they are proposing, then why not all of them"  

Verily, this thread has proven on to me that Santa is REAL and that Thor is Santa! God's be praised! Skyrim is for the Nords!

And murder, and theft, and purgery, wanna drop those legislated morals?

For a depraved finite mind to believe it can "logic" it's way to a "belief" in God or a "belief" in not god is a fools errand.
Faith in God is a gift from God....if you "believe" in God then the bible is a must read for you....everything you need to know
is in there.

The internet is you god. You post on Arfcom an average of 29 times a day. You don't have time for god.

Deep down, theists understand NOT believing in gods and they realize it is not rational to believe in them. Pretty much any Christian you ask is going to tell you without a doubt that Zeus, Kali, Odin, Poseidon, Mars, Krishna, Ganesha and Vishnu are not real. They 100% understand the concept of not believing in imaginary stuff. It is a mental disconnect that allows them to hang onto the sliver of belief in THEIR god. It's kind of scary to think how the brain works. People that believe in imaginary things are not always stupid or ignorant. They just have a single area where their reality doesn't correlate with what can be demonstrated to be real.

If I told you I believed in an invisible dragon* that was magical and powerful and controlled everything I did, you would think me crazy.
But if I told you I believed in invisible god that was magical and powerful and controlled everything I did, you would say Amen brother.

Both statements should have the same response and crazy is the correct answer.


ETA: claiming that my dragon had some people write a book about my dragon should not get me any extra points. It only makes me seem more delusional.

Very well said.  

I mean rAmen, you have obviously been touched by his noodly appendage.

except for Jesus.

Kinda hard to discredit Him

What, you have evidence that he ever did anything supernatural?  Or you just read it in a book, written centuries later, from stories embellished by generation after generation, translated into two or three different languages?  I have no problem believing that a dude named Jesus lived.  One name Mohammed either.  Whether they ever did anything supernatural or were just charismatic charlatans, well that's a matter of opinion, not fact.

Not gonna read through nine pages.  Everybody has their own thoughts on spirituality.

1. Bottom line IMO is that people need hope no matter what or they usually deteriorate mentally.
2. People do not do well with dealing with mortality.
3. Religion helps with the sting and finality of loss.

Logic and theology are incompatible in the same way salt and pepper are.



The more words you need to "explain" your position the weaker I find it to be.

If you categorically think that people are "suspending logic" by believing in God, then you are confusing the concept of logic with the philosophy of logical positivism.  Logic simply means coherence.  Deductive logic generally means your "thens" follow from your "ifs."  Inductive logic generally means that your conclusions are supported by arguments which are coherent.  One can be a Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Universalist, etc. and still be entirely logical.  Logical positivism is a specific philosophy which states that only things observable and verifiable can be described as true.  It contrasts generally to the classical position, which holds that moral and spiritual matters can also be true or false, and postmodernism which generally holds that everything is subjective and contingent.



The irony, of course, is that those that go around smugly asserting that religious people have abandoned logic are only showing their own ignorance and lack of education.  

Good one, ya made me go look.  I post on Arfcom 1.27x per day, which is more than I thought.  Now that I have thoroughly discredited you, will you leave your religion and become a horrible atheist?  

So, absolutely necessary and contributing to a flavorful life?

What really gets me with the premise of threads like this is the lack of gray area.

That you are either logical or a believer. That in order to be intelligent, you must abandon all faith because...why, exactly?

What's it to you? Why would you feel you are superior to someone based on faith or lack thereof? (And yes that last part goes both ways)

We're all here together. While Yeah, I'd love for all of us to agree on religion, I know it's not going to happen, and that's okay. But if you think less of me because of my beliefs, that's your loss.

You have exchanged on fervor for another. Scientism, what is it?

Dildos

I got both long before I came here. I have experiences that have validated my understanding.





You are arguing over which is more important, how or why. They must both be taken together.



A person and I were arguing on the origin of life on the internet. He had posted a new experiment done in a lab that had changed a paradigm on how life arose and that we would soon be able to create life in a lab and didn't need religion to explain it.



So I asked him how creating life in a lab would prove that life wasn't created by someone, perhaps in a lab.

You clearly have not researched your claims-that is not a jab but obvious that you are parroting points that others have made.  Granted, they are great points, they are just not true.

As far as supernatural I'll get to that.


The latest gospel was written about AD 150-100, that is one generation removed from Jesus, the earliest (mark) was written about AD 60.  Historical speaking that means that the Gospels Are more reliable than the Chronicles of Alexander the great, and Cesar Augustus.  It also means that the eye witness testimony mentioned in Acts, Luke, and John 1-is accurate....because it was open to refute, at that time is history--and was not

You will also need to address the historic Jewish claims about Jesus-especially those in the Talmud and the writings of Josephus...this is not because the Gospels do not stand on their own against higher criticism, but because until you are willing to apply the same standards of accuracy to all historical documents--I assume you will want some non Christian documentation

He was a magician was a popular claim...even bowls were made to mock Him Linky


As far as the multiple languages thing, I am not sure where you got that-again, I know it is a popular point it is just not true-

New testament was written in both Greek and Aramaic... Ironically these were never dead languages--and the earliest manuscripts  we have (late first century/ early seconds depending on authorship) are consistent with the popular manuscript that were derived into the English Bible (textus receptus)

If you would like to see believers squabble-- feel free to Google majority text versus textus receptus.

The more liberal critics claim there is about a third difference between the two-but even they admit that this does not affect the plain reading of most passages.  Other critics claim there is only 10th difference at best--and does not effect the meaning of most passages.

So, in summary both Christian and non-Christian historical document-that have passed higher criticism Point to the miraculous works and resurrection of Jesus.

The concept that the new testament was written centuries after Christ --is much more of a fable than the miracles them self (forgot to mention that the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325, affirmed the canon of Scripture because it affirmed the books that had already been historically deemed accurate)

--or that there was some sort of multiple translation process and everything was lost in translation- is also historically ridiculous.

Where?

I love all the skirting around the question...

I sincerely want you to explain how this makes sense. If I told you to jump off a bridge because I have faith that you will survive, is that evidence that you will survive?

Jesus...see my post above yours

I practice Santeria. I got a crystal ball.

I hear ya man! We all know we come from ancient aliens!

Relax Mr. Preacher. Those quotes are from the first page. This is page 9 in case you didn't know.





Why did god choose to drop his son in Nazareth instead of say.. Hong Kong? What was special about those people that they were blessed with being neighbors with jesus?  How different would the story be if he was dropped into a completely different culture?

I don't agree with OPs premise.


I'm a Christian.   I'm also very logical and love science.

I don't think the two are mutually exclusive

just gonna drop this right here.......http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1765555_There_you_have_it__mankind_has_100_years_left_.html

Since you're feeling froggy today for some reason.. I'll address this too. What makes any of that true? Let's say I believe that the people (Mark, Luke, John etc) did say those things, and they did write them down. What makes it believable? Because it's in the bible? What authority towards facts does the bible have that any other book doesn't? Why do you believe the stories in the bible but not the hindu texts for example?

Actual questions ^^^

Cool I'm all for honest dialog--and that is a worthy question anyone seeking truth should ask.

--

Here is a Link that answers your first premise with referenced detail...I assume I could summarize, but then I would assume you would request citations for that summary, so I will cut to the chase on that.


All I ask..is that you read it

Why do we suspend logic when it comes to women?

Why do we suspend logic when it comes to dancing?

Why do we suspend logic when it comes to parades?

Why do we suspend logic when it comes to music?

Why do we suspend logic when it comes to fashion?

Why do we suspend logic when it comes to mustaches?

Why do we suspend logic when it comes to Hot Rods?

Why do we suspend logic when it comes to Dress Uniforms?

Why do we suspend logic when it comes to Marriage?

Why do we suspend logic when it comes to education?

Why do we suspend logic when it comes to _____________?

Early Indoctrination ... you can make kids believe anything.

My wife is a Mormon and believes the ridiculous story of Joseph Smith who supposedly communicated with his god by sticking his face in a hat. "God" told him to write down what he said, one guy didn''t believe him so hid the book ... Joseph Smith did it again, only when they were compared the two books didn't match ... "God" - an all powerful being who created the universe - could not recite the same story twice without making mistakes. And so the "Book of Mormon" was born.

I still can't fathom how people can be so gullible. It's almost as bad as that Lord Xenu shit that Scientologists believe in.

As long as they don't try to push their religion on me, then people can believe whatever makes them happy.

An interesting read but very very long so I skimmed some of it, but still full of problems unfortunately. We have these tests that are supposed to show historical accuracy, yes. But can these tests really be applied to the bible? In my opinion they can't. The bible makes some pretty steep claims. None of these tests validate these claims, which are really at the center of discussion. I think you'll find that many Athiests, Agnostics, etc do believe that Jesus existed as a person and he may very well have been involved in these stories ascribed in the bible. But the only thing that gives Christianity validity is the supernatural claims made in the bible. I think for any Christians case to be made valid, they would have to wait a long time for someone to prove that the supernatural really did happen. This also extends to gods existence. Unfortunately it seems the wait will be long, and maybe even indefinite. So my point is that who cares what people believe. But if you're going to make claims like the stories in the bible being fact, you'll have to suffer through the people calling the inevitable bullshit. Because to be honest, they're just stories until then.

I know some are going to get butthurt over this (likely poorly written) comment, but I hope there are some here who see the validity in it.