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Posted: 6/25/2015 1:44:44 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Looking to build a "long range" AR, is 26" impractical? I recall reading on here on one of the tech forums that at about 18-20 you can reach max performance. I think above that you reach a point of diminishing returns. I could be wrong though. Just something I remember vaguely |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 1:46:50 AM EDT
[#2]
In my world, an AR with a barrel over 16" is impractical.
Define "long range" and what caliber are you even talking about? These things are somewhat relevant. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 1:46:52 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Looking to build a "long range" AR, is 26" impractical? If it will always be on a bench, why not? There is a equilibrium point on barrel length and fps. For .308 it's 20". From 0-19.9" .308 rounds gain 25-35 fps per inch of barrel. After 20" you only gain 8-11 fps per inch of barrel. I'm sure there is something similar with .223. Don't know what that length is. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 1:47:38 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Looking to build a "long range" AR, is 26" impractical? 5.56? Yes. .308? No. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 1:51:39 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If it will always be on a bench, why not? There is a equilibrium point on barrel length and fps. For .308 it's 20". From 0-19.9" .308 rounds gain 25-35 fps per inch of barrel. After 20" you only gain 8-11 fps per inch of barrel. I'm sure there is something similar with .223. Don't know what that length is. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Looking to build a "long range" AR, is 26" impractical? If it will always be on a bench, why not? There is a equilibrium point on barrel length and fps. For .308 it's 20". From 0-19.9" .308 rounds gain 25-35 fps per inch of barrel. After 20" you only gain 8-11 fps per inch of barrel. I'm sure there is something similar with .223. Don't know what that length is. It's going to depend on what load you're using. IIRC, M855 starts losing steam beyond about 20" of barrel length. I'm sure loads can be developed to make use of that extra barrel length. Doubt you'll get all that much more velocity though. I'd stick with 20" and under, but it'd be a lot easier to say if OP were a little more specific on what role he's trying to fill. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 1:51:53 AM EDT
[#6]
.556
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Posted: 6/25/2015 1:54:00 AM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 6/25/2015 1:58:17 AM EDT
[#8]
Iv never seen one offered ... I recall reading colt made one way back
Iv got a 24 and love it ... heavy but IMO that's what helps me get real tight groups |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 2:01:10 AM EDT
[#9]
I got a kreiger barreled 24" upper. It's a heavy fucker and I do not have a proper lower to really see how good it is.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 3:04:32 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Iv never seen one offered ... I recall reading colt made one way back Iv got a 24 and love it ... heavy but IMO that's what helps me get real tight groups Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 3:11:43 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Iv never seen one offered ... I recall reading colt made one way back Iv got a 24 and love it ... heavy but IMO that's what helps me get real tight groups Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy. He's suggesting weight does, which is probably true. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 3:15:24 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He's suggesting weight does, which is probably true. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Iv never seen one offered ... I recall reading colt made one way back Iv got a 24 and love it ... heavy but IMO that's what helps me get real tight groups Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy. He's suggesting weight does, which is probably true. Ahhh, I think you're right. Misread what he was saying. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 3:18:56 AM EDT
[#13]
I had a 24" bull-barrel upper (.925 block-muzzle, 1.050 block-breech) ... I had it cut to 21", and turned down to .745/.85 or thereabouts. A 24 is a beast, even from a bench.
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Posted: 6/25/2015 3:28:00 AM EDT
[#14]
Is 120 fps worth it?
Probably not... |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 3:48:22 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Iv never seen one offered ... I recall reading colt made one way back Iv got a 24 and love it ... heavy but IMO that's what helps me get real tight groups Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy. I'll argue that barrel length has a lot to do with accuracy... When a round drops out of supersonic speeds it gets all wobbly and stuff... Barrel length effects velocity therefore effects accuracy. It is only part of the puzzle but to say it has nothing to do with accuracy is false... Edit, as for op. 24" or 26" might let you push out a bit further but if you want a solid long range gun look at something other than 5.56. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 4:19:34 AM EDT
[#16]
Just one.
It was and is a tinkerfest, of ballistic masturbation gone silly, even if I was serious at the time. I had Jim Webb cut a 26" radical gain twist barrel, with 1/3 Newton form rifling at 1/7 final, and clock the gas tap and barrel extension. Chamber was cut for Std. 5.56 with a longish leade for Sierra 70's. From there, it was a gaggle fuck, finding the right burn rate and expansion ratio to reliably cycle AND take advantage of the pressure quirks, of radical gain twist. I got it into the .3's a couple times, but it became obvious that neck tension variables, were leading to weirdness in the immediate, post ignition pressure curves, and wreaking havoc with barrel time consistency, so it would get no better than the occaisonal .3's or consistent .6-.7's, and would be a PITA to get where I was going with the idea, so the additional 200fps was useless. 
It would stay within the .7 range without too much fussing, so it got used for thumping Woodchucks in the cousins hay field for a couple seasons, then parked in the safe. I'd rather drag around a good 18" that wont have fits. Somewhere in there is a Douglas barreled space gun with a 26" on it, to take advantage of the sight radius. I haven't dug it out in at least 8 years as it's useless for anything anymore. The slight gain in velocity with std. 1/8 or 1/7, over a 20 just isn't worth the weight, and floppity barrel, as shorter is stiffer in any given dia., and unless you are shooting unsupported, the weight doesn't stabilize any more, than weighting the fore end. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 4:40:03 AM EDT
[#17]
Not yet.
 Though I may settle on a medium contour 24". |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 4:40:50 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: -snip- Did you make any threads on this? |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 4:47:59 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll argue that barrel length has a lot to do with accuracy... When a round drops out of supersonic speeds it gets all wobbly and stuff... Barrel length effects velocity therefore effects accuracy. It is only part of the puzzle but to say it has nothing to do with accuracy is false... Edit, as for op. 24" or 26" might let you push out a bit further but if you want a solid long range gun look at something other than 5.56. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Iv never seen one offered ... I recall reading colt made one way back Iv got a 24 and love it ... heavy but IMO that's what helps me get real tight groups Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy. I'll argue that barrel length has a lot to do with accuracy... When a round drops out of supersonic speeds it gets all wobbly and stuff... Barrel length effects velocity therefore effects accuracy. It is only part of the puzzle but to say it has nothing to do with accuracy is false... Edit, as for op. 24" or 26" might let you push out a bit further but if you want a solid long range gun look at something other than 5.56. It has little to do with accuracy, and nothing of what you posted has anything to do with the accuracy of the barrel. Interesting factoid: Shorter barrels tend to be stiffer and are generally a little more accurate than longer ones.
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Posted: 6/25/2015 4:54:18 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did you make any threads on this? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
-snip- Did you make any threads on this? LOL!! Nope. Not here, Arfcom didn't exist at the time. 
I mentioned a couple other similar builds later, on another board that no longer exists/morphed into something else. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 6:31:52 AM EDT
[#21]
My last build was a 24". Turned out nice. Nice range gun.
I did it based on nothing other than "I'll be that would look cool."...and it does. (shrug) |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:11:51 AM EDT
[#22]
I built a 24" HBAR with 1-9 twist some yrs back. I used a reasonably priced DPMS stainless barrel. It is my most accurate AR (scoped w/ a 20X and free float tube). It has shot many 5 shot ragged "one hole" groups at 100yds that I can cover with a dime (w/ my handloads). Shooting was done off a Caldwell rest.
It is a heavy bastage of a gun. You aren't going to carry this gun around in the field unless you're Arnold. This gun would be a blast to set up on a table over a prairie dog town though. The longer barrel gains you more mass. It will heat up slower and the group is likely to change around as it very slowly warms. Those in this thread that say "length has nothing to do with accuracy" are incorrect. Another buddy built a similar gun (24" barrel from a diff manufacturer) and it is his most accurate gun also out of a numerous AR collection--well, before the rest got lost in a tragic boating accident. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:14:18 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Iv never seen one offered ... I recall reading colt made one way back Iv got a 24 and love it ... heavy but IMO that's what helps me get real tight groups Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy. It might be more accurate if your target is 28" away from the bolt face.
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:15:05 AM EDT
[#24]
This always comes to mind when people talk about 20+" barrels on ars...
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:26:47 AM EDT
[#25]
A 26" barrel is a very common length for an AR based match rifle in High Power competition. White Oak Armament sells barrels in that length for both match and target/varmint applications. I would say that whether that length is practical for the OP is dependent on how he intends to use the upper and what his definition of "long range" is. For me "long range" is 800-1000 yards and I'd much rather have a nice bolt gun than a gas gun at that distance.
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:32:25 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.556 Wind. I think any performance gains with a barrel longer than 20" will be offset by wind variability at those longer distances. But, I can't call wind to save my life, so YMMV. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:43:18 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Looking to build a "long range" AR, is 26" impractical? .223 - no 5.56 - yes |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:46:22 AM EDT
[#28]
The longest barrel 5.56 needs is 16"...anything longer and you're just playing with it.
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:51:40 AM EDT
[#29]
I have a 24 laying around that shot really nice.
I took it off when I didn't really do that kind of shooting anymore. It was super heavy. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:54:30 AM EDT
[#30]
IF only there was an AR15 forum for this
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:54:43 AM EDT
[#31]
for typical 5.56 loads a 20 inch barrel is optimal. a 24 inch barrel is beneficial for certain rounds, but beyond that there isn't much point. Different calibers will vary. look up optimal barrel lengths or check the tech forums.
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Posted: 6/25/2015 10:25:46 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It has little to do with accuracy, and nothing of what you posted has anything to do with the accuracy of the barrel. Interesting factoid: Shorter barrels tend to be stiffer and are generally a little more accurate than longer ones. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Iv never seen one offered ... I recall reading colt made one way back Iv got a 24 and love it ... heavy but IMO that's what helps me get real tight groups Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy. I'll argue that barrel length has a lot to do with accuracy... When a round drops out of supersonic speeds it gets all wobbly and stuff... Barrel length effects velocity therefore effects accuracy. It is only part of the puzzle but to say it has nothing to do with accuracy is false... Edit, as for op. 24" or 26" might let you push out a bit further but if you want a solid long range gun look at something other than 5.56. It has little to do with accuracy, and nothing of what you posted has anything to do with the accuracy of the barrel. Interesting factoid: Shorter barrels tend to be stiffer and are generally a little more accurate than longer ones. Yeah, I was going to mention barrel whip too but I was tired and velocity is what will shine at longer ranges.. 2 barrels being of equil quality and profile at say 100 yards a shorter barrel that will maintain velocity will generally be more accurate. Take the same 2 barrels and push them out past 500 yards and see what starts to happen. The longer barrel will remain accurate further due to the increased velocity. So again barrel length does effect accuracy... The question was based on range and a longer (with a stiff profile) will give you some benifit. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 10:26:51 AM EDT
[#33]
Had two...more minuses than pluses.
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Posted: 6/25/2015 10:32:50 AM EDT
[#34]
26" Krieger med wt here
Prairie dog gun extraordinaire |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 10:33:50 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He's suggesting weight does, which is probably true. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Iv never seen one offered ... I recall reading colt made one way back Iv got a 24 and love it ... heavy but IMO that's what helps me get real tight groups Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy. He's suggesting weight does, which is probably true. Not really. Not directly, anyway. Stiffness, and damping of resonant harmonic vibrations, are what's really important. If you had 2 barrels, each weighing 5 pounds, but one was 16" long and one was 30" long (everything else being equal), the shorter barrel would probably shoot better. Extra barrel mass, aside from increasing stiffness, also delays barrel heating, so there is that as well. Back in the early 80s, the "new thing" was bolt-action handguns in rifle calibers, usually with barrels around 14" or so. Some of these things, as tested in the gun mags, were quite phenomenally accurate. Like 3/4" groups at 200, often smaller. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 10:47:25 AM EDT
[#36]
I have one on my match rifle. The longer barrel with VLD bullets makes a nice 600yd shooter. The longer barrel also lets you use the full potential of slower burning powders that you wouldn't see, or would actually be a negative, with a shorter barrel.
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Posted: 6/25/2015 11:13:02 AM EDT
[#37]
Wes Grant did a velocity comparison years ago and posted itin the industry section. Beyond 18", all the 5.56mm loads were running out of gas, with the Mk262 taking the best advantage of extra length. FWIW, I shoot 77 gr. handloads at a brass friendly 2800 fps through a 20" Krieger and I wouldn't think of going longer with the barrel. I get to 1K yards with 10.2-10.3 mils of elevation and windage is about 30% more than M118LR in the Mk11. Keeping length at 20" makes the suppressor an unobtrusive addition, too.
Also, barrel length does nothing for mechanical accuracy. *If* additional length provides a meaningful gain in velocity it will grow the shooter's margin for error in range estimation and wind calls, but doesn't help accuracy in and of its self. A heavier gun does tend to be more forgiving and easier to shoot straight, but that's not speaking to the accuracy of the rifle. If your barrel is walking POI as it heats, buy a better barrel. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 11:18:47 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In my world, an AR with a barrel over 16" is impractical. Define "long range" and what caliber are you even talking about? These things are somewhat relevant. Yeah, I pretty much draw the line at 18". (Even though I don't have anything "practical" over 16") A1 and A2 rifle clones get a pass. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 8:27:58 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Iv never seen one offered ... I recall reading colt made one way back Iv got a 24 and love it ... heavy but IMO that's what helps me get real tight groups THIS. I've got a 24" heavy barrel that I bought back in the early 1990s when long, heavy barrels were the consensus choice for long-range shooting. It's a shooter, too. My Rem 700 in .223/5.56 is a 24" barrel as well. But I can't recall of ever seeing anything about 26" AR barrels back in the day. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 8:55:28 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not really. Not directly, anyway. Stiffness, and damping of resonant harmonic vibrations, are what's really important. If you had 2 barrels, each weighing 5 pounds, but one was 16" long and one was 30" long (everything else being equal), the shorter barrel would probably shoot better. Extra barrel mass, aside from increasing stiffness, also delays barrel heating, so there is that as well. Back in the early 80s, the "new thing" was bolt-action handguns in rifle calibers, usually with barrels around 14" or so. Some of these things, as tested in the gun mags, were quite phenomenally accurate. Like 3/4" groups at 200, often smaller. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Iv never seen one offered ... I recall reading colt made one way back Iv got a 24 and love it ... heavy but IMO that's what helps me get real tight groups Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy. He's suggesting weight does, which is probably true. Not really. Not directly, anyway. Stiffness, and damping of resonant harmonic vibrations, are what's really important. If you had 2 barrels, each weighing 5 pounds, but one was 16" long and one was 30" long (everything else being equal), the shorter barrel would probably shoot better. Extra barrel mass, aside from increasing stiffness, also delays barrel heating, so there is that as well. Back in the early 80s, the "new thing" was bolt-action handguns in rifle calibers, usually with barrels around 14" or so. Some of these things, as tested in the gun mags, were quite phenomenally accurate. Like 3/4" groups at 200, often smaller. I dont know about all the science stuff ... all I know is it doesn’t move around when fired = making me look like I can shoot
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:02:37 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Looking to build a "long range" AR, is 26" impractical? How does one go about "running" a barrel??? 
You might ROLL a barrel, as in, down a driveway.... You could, say, THROW said barrel down the aforementioned driveway....! For the life of me I've never seen a barrell with legs!! Got a pic????
Gonna have barrel races???
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:04:38 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll argue that barrel length has a lot to do with accuracy... When a round drops out of supersonic speeds it gets all wobbly and stuff... Barrel length effects velocity therefore effects accuracy. It is only part of the puzzle but to say it has nothing to do with accuracy is false... Edit, as for op. 24" or 26" might let you push out a bit further but if you want a solid long range gun look at something other than 5.56. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Iv never seen one offered ... I recall reading colt made one way back Iv got a 24 and love it ... heavy but IMO that's what helps me get real tight groups Barrel length has nothing to do with accuracy. I'll argue that barrel length has a lot to do with accuracy... When a round drops out of supersonic speeds it gets all wobbly and stuff... Barrel length effects velocity therefore effects accuracy. It is only part of the puzzle but to say it has nothing to do with accuracy is false... Edit, as for op. 24" or 26" might let you push out a bit further but if you want a solid long range gun look at something other than 5.56. I have a long barreled .300 Remington Ultra Mag for those needs
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:11:03 PM EDT
[#43]
Old school here. 20" is all you need son.
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:19:50 PM EDT
[#44]
I have a 24 inch barreled gun, but part of the motivation for that length was use of iron sights for Highpower shooting. Speeds are slightly higher than from a 20 inch barrel with the bullets I shoot.
My recommendation is that you get a sensible contour, not one that is 0.90 or greater for it's full length. The gun will be too heavy, and too muzzle heavy without ballast in the butt stock. Something similar to a Wilson #4 or #5 contour would make a nice 12 to 13 pound gun. |
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Posted: 6/25/2015 9:38:58 PM EDT
[#45]
6724 eta: it even looks long in the pic 
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Posted: 6/25/2015 10:31:28 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Old school here. 20" is all you need son. THANKS DAD!!!!!
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Posted: 6/26/2015 1:28:15 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
5.56? Yes. .308? No. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Looking to build a "long range" AR, is 26" impractical? 5.56? Yes. .308? No. Actually both are not worth going with more than 20in barrels. There is basically no velocity gained going past 20in. When it comes to 5.56 and .308, if you feel you need a longer barrel, you need to re-evaluate your choice in caliber. Barrel length is one of the most misunderstood concepts. It hasn't been till very recently that many people have come to see that most rifle cartridges, (ie. 5.56 and .308) that use a medium burning powder have experienced 96-99% powder burn after travelling 20 inches down a barrel. Even cartridges like .300 WM and .338 Lapua don't need more than 24 inches. Many people are using them to 99% capability with 22 inch barrels. There are very few cartridges out there that require a 26 inch barrel. I have had a couple of varmint ARs with 24in barrels and even had a Krieger 26in, which I had cut to 20in. I sold them all. When it comes to gas-gun 5.56, I just don't see any point going longer than 18 inches. |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 1:29:18 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Actually both are not worth going with more than 20in barrels. There is basically no velocity gained going past 20in. When it comes to 5.56 and .308, if you feel you need a longer barrel, you need to re-evaluate your choice in caliber. Barrel length is one of the most misunderstood concepts. It hasn't been till very recently that many people have come to see that most rifle cartridges, (ie. 5.56 and .308) that use a medium burning powder have experienced 96-99% powder burn after travelling 20 inches down a barrel. Even cartridges like .300 WM and .338 Lapua don't need more than 24 inches. Many people are using them to 99% capability with 22 inch barrels. There are very few cartridges out there that require a 26 inch barrel. I have had a couple of varmint ARs with 24in barrels and even had a Krieger 26in, which I had cut to 20in. I sold them all. When it comes to gas-gun 5.56, I just don't see any point going longer than 18 inches. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Looking to build a "long range" AR, is 26" impractical? 5.56? Yes. .308? No. Actually both are not worth going with more than 20in barrels. There is basically no velocity gained going past 20in. When it comes to 5.56 and .308, if you feel you need a longer barrel, you need to re-evaluate your choice in caliber. Barrel length is one of the most misunderstood concepts. It hasn't been till very recently that many people have come to see that most rifle cartridges, (ie. 5.56 and .308) that use a medium burning powder have experienced 96-99% powder burn after travelling 20 inches down a barrel. Even cartridges like .300 WM and .338 Lapua don't need more than 24 inches. Many people are using them to 99% capability with 22 inch barrels. There are very few cartridges out there that require a 26 inch barrel. I have had a couple of varmint ARs with 24in barrels and even had a Krieger 26in, which I had cut to 20in. I sold them all. When it comes to gas-gun 5.56, I just don't see any point going longer than 18 inches. Science and physics, might want to look into them
Let me guess, you were really good at home economics and P.E. in high school? |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 1:42:38 AM EDT
[#49]
I'm curious, do any of you notice a significant decrease in muzzle blast with your long barrel ARs (compared to a standard 16" barrel)? If so, at what barrel length do you notice the decrease?
HighSpeedSteel |
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Posted: 6/26/2015 4:37:54 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a 24 inch barreled gun, but part of the motivation for that length was use of iron sights for Highpower shooting. Speeds are slightly higher than from a 20 inch barrel with the bullets I shoot. My recommendation is that you get a sensible contour, not one that is 0.90 or greater for it's full length. The gun will be too heavy, and too muzzle heavy without ballast in the butt stock. Something similar to a Wilson #4 or #5 contour would make a nice 12 to 13 pound gun. I have a 26" barrel on a 223 AR. Not only are the muzzle velocities several hundred fps higher than in my 16" AR's, and that extra speed is free. The front sight is also mounted near the muzzle not on the gas block and it is way out there, helping me to focus on the front sight. More than anything else, the extra distance helps with accuracy. Contour is key. The 0.92" diameter barrels sold by RRA are just too darned heavy. Even in a 16" length it's ridiculously muzzle heavy but their 26" barrel are a bad joke, IMO. |
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