***** y a w n *****

Can't you see?? That's EXACTLY what the Gospel preaching Christian does. I am SOOOOO glad some Christian treated me the way they wanted to be treated. otherwise, I would have never known the truth.

How do I want to be treated?? I want to be told the truth, so I tell the truth to to others. What do I consider hateful treatment?? Being lied to. So I don't lie to others.


We KNOW that receiving Jesus as Saviour is the BEST thing that EVER happened in our lives. We want EVERYONE to experience that. We treat others as we want to be treated.

We believe the is a REAL hell, and REAL people go there, if they have not met God's criteria for escaping hell. We don't want ANYONE to go there. We treat others as we want to be treated.

The amazing parts is, "us Christians" want you to know joy, and to escape hell, and what thanks do we get from you???

Basically, we get a "go to hell" from y'all. We accept that as par for the course, and know that it goes with the territory. We don't expect y'all to thank us, but jinkies, man.

Its your life, no doubt. But you should try to recognize when someone is trying to help you.

There's a neat little animation for that - it looks like this....

[sleep]

[:D]

This reaction is funny and predictable.  All you religous people out there jumping up and down over something meant to be humerous.  Take it for what it was, some nut out there trying to entertain us (and it was free).  You have the right to believe in a god just like I have the right not to believe.

I believe that it is written that Jesus gave an admonishment to the effect of "sell your cloak and buy a sword".

With that perhaps we should concentrate on our present day swords (our ar 15's and associated weapons)and prepare for the defense of personal liberties, and freedom. Let each choose their own way in this life. Be thankful that we still can choose for ourselves.

Admitedly, I do get annoyed when people try and fix something in me that is not broken.  With all due respect, I do not need your help.  However, I will always listen to and respect your point of view unless it espouses hate.  Garandman, be assured that although I disagree with you, you will never get a "Go to Hell" from me.  I live by my heart, and if there is some higher power controling it, then fine.  I don't know one way or the other, but I do know this: if I live my life as a genuinely kind and forgiving person (which I think I do), any deity who condemns me to eternal suffering merely because I did not worship Him in the insignificant blip that my life is(insignificant relative to eternity)can kiss my ass.

Garandman,

I'd like you to think about this for a moment.

Your Lord and Savior, Jesus, is telling people that it doesn't matter how good they are in life...if they don't believe in him and love him and worship him...they will go to hell.  

Are you saying it's not his fault, that he is just trying to save us from it?  I thought he was God!  I thought he created the universe!  God supposedly made all this the way it is.

Does that really sound reasonable to you?  What would you call a president that said:

Garandman, I don't care if you obey the law and pay your taxes and help needy orphans.  If you don't come to the White House and swear fealty to me and swear to love me and obey me, I will send the ATF to your house and arrest you and your family and sentence you to a life of eternal suffering in Maximum Security Federal Prison.  But I am a kind and loving President, and I don't care if you raped, robbed, and murdered, as long as you kneel down before me and beg my forgiveness, you can avoid any jail time.

You would call that President a power-hungy dictator who needs to be assasinated at the earliest opportunity, correct?  You would not sit down for that kind of leadership of your United States, right?

So why do you accept that from your God, the supposed ruler of your universe???

Bill Wallace

Bill -

good questions, all of them.

A short answer to why i accept that from my God is because He is worthy of my worship. The president did not send his son to die for me, that I might have BOTH peace and happiness on this earth, and eternal life in heaven. Further, the president did not create me, or this world. God did. As such, He gets to call the shots. He is worthy of my service and obedience, and worchip.

Now some details -

No offense intended here, but I see someone has done a VERY poor job of explaining Christianity to you. More than likely, Christians are to blame for that.

Jesus Christ NEVER said it doesn't matter how good I am. NEVER.

What Christ said is that MY goodness isn't enuf to satisfy a perfect God. I need Christs righteousness FIRST transferred to me. Once that has happened, then it is VERY important how good of a person I am.

the beauty of this is that I am not then enslaved to trying to earn my way into heaven. Christs goodness flows out of me, and I am determined to be right with God based NOT on me, but on Christ. Simply put, when God looks at me, He doesn't see me, He sees His perfect Son Jesus.

I'm sure it sounds mystical. Its not really.

Lets go back to the beginning. God created man as a sinless creature - Adam and Eve had perfect communion with God. God created a perfect world. But then Adam CHOSE to sin - and as Adam was the father of us all, his sin passed to us, kinda like a genetic disease.

for thousands of years man went along sufferring for Adams decision, but God in His great love couldn't stand that. So he sent His son, Jesus, to solve the sin problem. In effect, Jesus had the cure to the genetic disease Adam brought on us all.

Say you have malaria, and you REFUSE to go to the hospital, and get the cure that is freely available, at no cost to you, and then you die. Tell me- Is that the hospitals fault for not chasing you down, dragging you kicking and screaming, to take the malaria shots?? No.

Similarly, its NOT Jesus fault if we don't accept His cure.

Lets be real for a minute here - Jesus message is a VERY offensive one. I admit that.  My only hope is that I as the messenger am NOT being MORE offensive than teh message itself requires.

I understand what you're saying.  The world is God's creation, and we have strayed from his path, and he is trying to get us back on it.  Our goodness, as we percieve it, is not enough, because it doesn't fulfill the purpose of our creation.  We must accept God to be restored to the path and be saved.

Did I get that okay?

Well in order for me to accept that, I have to indeed believe that God created the Universe and that his rules govern all.  Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that I believe God exists, and the bible is his message.  

So I know he's out there, my only question is, is he who he says he is, and did he in fact create the universe.

So here is a little interview with God (feel free to copy it and fill in the God part any way you like):

Bill:  So God, you created the Universe and stuff, right?

God:  Yes, my son.  

Bill:  Okay, what were the dinosaurs?  Did you like screw up and have to start over?

God:  It is not for your puny mind to understand my will.

Bill:  But you created me, right?  My mind was good enough to find the bones, and put them together, and ask the question, right?  If you didn't want to answer the question, why let me ask it?

God:  Like I said my child, it is not for your puny mind to understand the will of God.  Maybe I made those bones and put them in the Earth to decieve you and make it harder for you to find the true path.

Bill:  But you said you loved us and wanted us to accept you...then you put obstacles in our path?  Is this a game to you?

God:  Silence impudent lout!

Bill:  Okay, I'm sorry.  So you created Adam and Eve and they had children.   What are all those neanderthalls and homo habilis and all that?  Did you screw up and have to start again yet once more?

God:  Um...like I said..it is not...

Bill:  Yeah, yeah, I heard you the first time.  So why is it so important that we love and obey you?

God:  Because I created you, and all things.  You must obey and love me as I love you!

Bill:  Do you know what love is?

God:  Of course, I am love.

Bill:  But we have come to know love as being selfless and giving.  If I love a woman, but she wants to be away from me, should I not let her go because I love her and want her to be happy?

God:  No, you should hunt her down and kill her, just as I do your souls if you stray from me...er...did I just say that?

Bill:  Yes, you did.

God:  I meant...Shut up puny human!  How dare you question your creator!

Bill:  Sure, whatever.  Go away.  Nobody likes you.

God:  Why you little twerp!  I'll rain down fire and brimstone upon you...

Bill:  Yeah, yeah.  Get lost.

Yeah I know, it got a little silly, but I think it illustrates my point.

God's love is not how I was taught love should be.  Love me or else?  

I wish we could follow that example.  Hey, hot chick!  Love me or else!  Get over here! Muhahahaha!

If I had an ant farm, I would take better care of it than God seems to take of his own creation.  At least I would try to save my ants from falling over the edge instead of saying "oh well..the can always not fall off..it's their choice".

Bill Wallace

OK, Bill funny stuff, but I thinks it shows a few fundamental misunderstandings of God.

1. God wants us to understand Him. This is why He gave us such a detailed description of Himself in the Bible. But just as with the common cold, we will eventually get to things we don't understand. And that's okay, too.

2. God wants us to love Him out of our own free will, just as He does us.

3. God wants us to BOLDLY approach Him. It OK to question God. There are numerous accounts in teh Bible of people doing just this. And as you read the account, you see NOT God destroying or rebuking them, but Him developing a deeper personal relationship with them.

My wife recently got cancer. 33 years old. You can BET I questioned God on that one. what can I tell ya?? I'm still here, alive and well. No fire and brimstone for my "impudence."  [:D]

I'm sorry to hear about your wife.  I hope she is okay and that she recovers.

garandman:  The bible has been translated from it's original hebrew and greek.  The Hebrew translations were INFLUENCED by the 'sponsor' of the translation.  The sponsor often acted as the 'editor' of the translation and got to say how a particular phrase should be translated.  Often these translations would fit his worldview and or political positions in order to benefit himself.  NOT exactly the word of God.

Many original manuscripts exist.  Scholars have been studying them for centuries.  They have always argued with each other on what the correct translation is.  Many times these translation differences are not insignificant.  They have profound religious consequences.

The best way to understand these Words of God is to learn Hebrew and then study the hebrew texts.  I checked into this a bit.  Hebrew is a facinating language.  Many times a Hebrew 'word' has layers and layers of meanings.  Which is one reason translations are so difficult.

I don't bring all this up to 'disprove' anything you've wrote.  I just wanted to point out that the Bible as you know it is full of untruths, halftruths, and partial meanings.  To get the true word of God, you have to go to the source.

Actually, BOTH Hebrew and greek are fascinating languages.

I belive God chose them for both their specificity and precision, so He could precisely communicate to man.

I have several Hebrew and Greek study aides to "unlock" the precision of the original languages.

Personally, I use the King James Version. To my knowledge, no one has shown that the KJV has ANY "untruths or half truths."

It does have some parital meanings, which I will refer to as cultural ambiguities. But that is the case with ANY translation, as we are trying to cross both time and cultures.

But thanks for the thoughtful post.

Garandman.....king james version....amen....this means you have a open minded, objective outlook on the true word of our LORD.......i was personally taught this in required bible study many years ago by a extremely faithful orthodox minister!!! NO denominations or religious differences in that class.........[^]

Bill.. I once was like you actually much worse as you are a much more congenial fellow than I was... I actually hated Christians .. I became one and it made matters worse I started to see the hypocrisy in the church itself...the tv preachers the money men the bible pimps hands in everybodies pockets.. promising them Gods blessings if they would only give to the ministry blah blah blah..still makes me sick...and angry...they are not of Christ in my opinion...one cannot serve God and mammon..and by their fruits you will know them...many bad examples out there proclaiming to be Christians. If you reject Christ based upon that alone cant blame ya one bit...
I try to guard my heart and my tongue lest I fail and become a bad witness as well.
I learned one thing a person can tell another about Jesus and how Jesus has changed their lives...made them more peacefull more loving towards their kids and wives -more content with what they have and willing to share what they have...Jesus is about that...self control, caring about others, etc..but salvation is an issue of a relationship with God the living God in the personage of Jesus..one cannot force anyone to choose God for it is God who chooses a man...first...Once I woke up and saw that God was right and I was wrong and came to Him I realized it was He who came to me and woke me up from my death and drew me to him.. I did nothing apart from Him..and so it is with anyone who comes to Christ.. it isnt some rational decision
or a judgement made on the preponderance of evidence..people can argue all day on the validity or whether or not a piece of evidence is admissable in the end it is as Solomon said "All vanity"..unless the Holy Spirit Himself beckons a soul one cannot believe ...even the devil belives in Christ and trembles.. for he knows his time is short
I hope you are called and awakend to see who he is..and what he isnt... he is not capricious, or a cosmic joker, or any of the evil things I attributed to him once..I would have no reason to live without him and no place good to go after I stopped living..
what a great sense of purpose I have now in Him.. I only wish that kind of assurance for you if possible..no preaching just honest concern.. God Bless Bill

Oh yeah.. and Bill... is there a Hell most defineatly...why? I dont know maybe its like having a society of people dedicated to certain principals who cannot let in people who hate them and want to kill them or who are dedicated to destroying their work
or who wont work or just want to leech off them...so if man is an eternal being (like the bible states) then God must separate out the rebels..the bible says there is a hell and discribes it as a lake of fire where the devil his angels and humans who have chosen Hell rather than submitt to God...I listen to the bravado of those who have never been in combat tell what they will do or would have done...whithout having any direct knowledge ..humerous I listen to those who confront God about hell laugh at Him deride those who love Him and follow Him..Im telling you Hell is a real place and sin has real consequences.. the miracle isnt that God doesnt save all of us the miracle is that He would save any of us.. for there is not one righteous among men.. ALL men have sinned an fallen short ... and the wages of sin is death- first the physical death and then the judgement...if God calls you ... you will come to him ..pray that He reveals Himself to you.. what have you got to loose..if He is real than Hell is real and so is Heaven... if He isnt real then all of us who believe are fools...harmless compared to the real predators out there if nothing else we believe in honesty, kindess, and loyalty and a willingness to help our neighbors and obey the law...that in itself one would think a society would desire of its citizens compared to the other choices...

Well, Garandman, I'm certainly glad we have to you share "THE TRUTH" with us!  Trying to help us out by keeping us out of hell, are you?  You're certainly entitled to your beliefs, but you seem to have the same smug self-righteousness shared by many Christians that so many others find offensive.  Why do you believe what you do?  Do you understand that you've accepted somebody else's pre-packaged belief system, designed by religious leaders to control the 'unwashed masses'?  I personally find the idea of a supreme being that gave us free will, then punishes us with eternal damnation if we do something he doesn't like to be completely ludicrous. Your belief system requires God to be insane, pure and simple.  If a human acted like He is supposed to in your mythology, we'd lock him up in a mental institution.  Hell is a concept designed by religious leaders to frighten people into doing things their way, and judging from some of these posts, it's still working like a charm.

The problem is not with what you believe, or even with the fact that you believe it to be the one and only truth.  The problem is that you seem to deny the possibility that anyone else's belief system may be valid for them, and since you have a lock on THE TRUTH, you think you need to make everyone else see the error of their ways.  If your belief system works for you, wonderful.  However, it's not any more 'valid' than a Jew's or a Buddhist's or a Muslim's.  Were you there when Jesus was alive, watching a listening as he interacted with people?  If not, then you are simply accepting someone else's version of the story as true, and there's absolutely nothing other than your belief that makes it any more 'true' than the story in the Koran or any other religious text.

Once again, it's not what you believe that people don't like, it's your smug superiority and the resultant need to 'help' others by convincing them that your belief system is more valid than theirs.  Of course people aren't going to thank you for that!  It's no different than the anti-gunners trying to force us to conform to their ideal of an unarmed society- they too believe that their way is 'the truth'.

Okay, I'm wearing Nomex underwear- fire away.

For those that are interested in how science and Christianity fit together, I encourage you to explore some of the following web pages.

[url]http://www.creationscience.com/[/url]
[url]http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/index.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/qa.asp[/url]

There is a lot of information and theories out there about creation vs. evolution.  I think the most important thing to note about evolution is that the theory was not arrived at through the scientific process.  That is not to say there are not pieces of it that are based on scientific research, but the theory has not been subject to scientific experimentation.  I would recommend that those who are interested spend time learning about what science is and what gives science its power of determining the way the world works.

Bill Wallace/Sparky315

Garandman is not being above all and not thinking he is better. He is trying to tell you guys something he knows.If a tornado was coming and I knew it and didn't tell you then I would be a real bad person. But if I knew it and tried to warn you and you didn't listen don't you think I would get frustrated. A true christian knows that there are only 2 places to go after death. That is Heaven or Hell. There is also a narrow road that leads to heaven. That road is Jesus.

I happen to believe like Garandman. All humans need to be cleansed from sin. Being a good person doesn't cut it. Why? It is great to be good,but you can't do enough to make yourself righteous. That is the whole concept of Jesus. In the garden of eden man was given his free will. He chose satan. Simple as that. Now that is wahy the world is messed up. Sickness,crime and everything else.

You can't talk about God and look at it on a human standard. It is much more complexed then that. You have to look at the whole picture to understand it. We are talking about GOD the creator of the universe. Now a mere man without godly guidence can't comprehend. How do we get godly guidence through the bible and the Holy Spirit and by a TRUE PASTOR/PRIEST/RABBI.

Bill/sparky does God love you? YES he does!! He just wants you to accept his free gift of life through his son Jesus. But maybe you don't want this cause you can't continue your current lifestyle. That is also your free will to do so. I as a christian can't do all the things that other people would do. Why? Because I try my best to live like God would want me to. Is it easy? NO way. Do I want to? Yes. Why? To be obeident to my lord and savior Jesus Christ!!! Will this earn me salvation? No. But it is a natural by product of being a true christian. Coming to Jesus means repentence. That means to turn away from your evil ways. Will it happen over night? No. It is a life long process. You can't blame God for not taking the free gift. And he will not force you. It is truly up to you to make the decision. Like the other person said God calls but you have the free will to accept or reject. Jesus said Behold I stand at the door and knock if you open the door I will come in and sup with you. In that culture having supper was a very intimate thing. You got to know someone if you had dinner with them.

Finally, when a rapist or murdered who just says I am sorry (to avoid hell). He will only be forgiven if he is truly sincere. God knows all and can't be fooled. Maybe God/Jesus is knocking right now to anyone who reads these posts. What are you going to do? Accept him or reject him? Heaven or Hell? Peace or no peace? This is an easy choice! If you want Jesus talk to him and tell him. Read the bible and find a church who studies the bible. Ask God to guide you. Stay away from the TV preachers who only want money. They will get theirs. Don't worry they are not getting away with anything. Good luck. And if you don't want this. That is fine you have your free will. Go shooting instead. God bless you all christian and non christian. It was my pleasure to share the gospel of Jesus with you. Just like the first post he had his freedom of speech and so do I.

You never know what Jesus looked like.  In the Roman ruins along the Israeli coast are pictures depicting some of the inhabitants of the city as blonde-haired and blue-eyed.  I know blonde and red-head Jews.  I would hate to be a light-skinned person back in those days without sun-screen.

GunLvr

Lougotzz, you missed the entire point of my post.  Not that I really care, since I have no particular need to convince you to see things my way.  Garandman isn't trying to tell me something he knows, he's trying to convince me to believe the same thing he believes.  And why does he believe it?  Because someone else told him it's true.  As for the 'we mere mortals can't understand God's plan' answer to any inconsistencies in your mythology, it just won't wash.  Sure does make it easy for the church to explain away rational questions about an irrational theology, though.  If you'll accept that reasoning, you'll accept anything if it's packaged right.  As I said, for the mythology you are holding out as true to actually be true, God would have to be insane.  If you choose to believe in a vengeful, spiteful, jealous god who will throw you in a burning pit for eternity if you disobey his laws, have at it.  And yes, you do have the freedom to say what you like.  I don't think anyone here has said anything about taking that away from you.  You also have the freedom to be a mindless lemming, which you also seem to be vigorously exercising.  Sure makes life easier when you don't have to think for yourself, doesn't it?  The church will tell you what to do and what not to do, all you have to do is obey.  Oh sure, resisting some of the 'temptations' will be hard, but they'll tell you what they are and what the right course of action is- all you have to do is listen.

And yes, thinking you have THE TRUTH and wanting to 'save' everyone by converting them to your way of thinking is acting superior.  It's this very sort of smug superiority that irritates me the most about a number of the 'devout' Christians I've met.   No, I  don't hate Christians or even dislike them simply because of their religion- I happen to have a very good friend who's a Catholic monk.  What I do dislike is people who are convinced that they have the answers and that everyone else needs to hear those answers from them, for their own good, of course.

And Garandman- could I get an autographed copy of "Smug, Arrogant Superiority and How I Attained It" instead?

I don't think God is vengeful I think he is just. He brings justice on humans who break his law. Just like a stae law you break and have consiquences the same with Gods law. Bottom line. If you choose to ignore it then it is not Gods fault. He gives us a way out and that is Jesus. He paid the debt. That is the whole concept of christianity.  Smug no way. Caring and concerned. Following the church blindly I don't think so. My parents are not into God like me. I have found this on my own. Do I diagree with my pastor sometimes? Yes. I form my own opinion though. Everythig God tell us to do in his word is for our own good. What else can I say. I am not here to change you. I present it,if you want it great if not no skin off my back. Would I like to see you and others love Jesus? Yes. I wont force anyone. I would like to end this topic and talk guns now. We all know where we stand and that is fine. No hard feelings. This would not have  been such a indepth topic if the first person didn't post his post. I have no problem with his choice of posting it. But no one can be upset when other people respond like me or others. Good luck to all and garandman I hope everything works out with your wife. God bless you my brother!!!  

sparky -

you'll get NO flames from me, for one main reason...

The message I carry IS offensive. No question about it. Christ said that it would be.

I know it seems like I am being arrogant. I mean, how do you tell someone that he is a sinner, and is on his way to hell, but he can escape that if he ONLY "becomes as wise as I am" and receives Christ, and then have that someone say "thank you SO much for putting me down."  [:D]

All I can tell you is that I really belive what I believe. What kind of a person would I be if I truly belived you were in mortal peril, and I DIDN'T warn you???

I think Lougotzz is right, it's time to put this post to rest, 'cause the best we're gonna get is an agreement to disagree.  Garandman, I wish you and your wife the best, hopefully she will be okay.  Peace.

Isn't the devil an angel that was fed up with God's arrogance and 'almightyness'?  Wasn't he supposed to have rebelled, saying something like "enough of this crap, I'm sick of you sitting there all full of yourself"?

Well let's assume that all you Christian's are right.  Jesus is real, and the only way to Heaven is to accept him and his laws.

Well then why does anyone want to go to heaven?  What is there to do in Heaven that is fun?

If being good is not enough for god, if you must also be righteous, then, no pun intended, to hell with him.  I don't want to be righteous.  I just want to be good.  And if Hell is where I go, then Hell must not be such a bad place.

Reading Milton, I sympathized with the devil.  God is, as depicted in the bible, an arrogant power hungry SOB!

So if you're right, I still want no part of Jesus.  Hell for me.  Maybe bad real estate, but I think it may be a better place to spend eternity.  Probably lots of slutty babes wind up there.  :)

And I'm into sailing.  I know Hell is supposed to have a lake of fire.  I can sail that.  

Bill Wallace

Bill -

Be careful what you wish for.

Dear Garandman - 'Shake off the dust of your feet...' and go forth, Brother.

May the Lord God preserve and deliver your wife, and you, through the present darkness.

Eric The(His Will be Done)Hun

What difference does it make what I wish for?

If you're right, and if I don't accept Jesus, I'm going to hell.  Since I will never, can never, accept Jesus, according to you, I'm going there anyway.

My point is, I'm a pretty decent guy.  So if I and people like me go to hell, it must not be such a bad place.

I was never willing to scrape and bow before corrupt authority figures to secure a better life for myself.  I'll not do it in life, and I'll sure as hell not do it in the after life.

Bill Wallace
Free in life, free in death

Well, if God is corrupt, you have bigger problems.

I've been trying pretty hard to stay out of this topic, but it's just too much fun.

I'll start by saying I'm %100 with garandman and 9divdoc. Unfortunately, they said just about everything I wanted to.

I will add that if you think that being good decent, kind, fair and upright is enough to get you into heaven or keep you out of hell you're wrong. You're blaming God for your sinful nature, and it's inevitable consequences.

You're born human, therefore you are born with the choice to choose between good and evil.

Pretty nice of God to do that, eh?

However, every grown person at some point their life has commited sin. You have. I have.

Now you're blaming God for not grading you on  a curve, for not saying "Well, you didn't do anything as bad as he did, you're saved from the consequences of your sin."?

You are going to be judged under criteria...

Are you perfect?(everybody fails this one, go to 2)

Are you forgiven for WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY committing sin?

Your call what to do with the second, but God's not gonna decide that you're "Good enough". You know this, and are currently whining about it.

"Gee, God, I don't wanna go to hell, but I don't wanna atone for my sin either, cause I'm supposed to be free, and individual, and my own man. If you ain't gonna just let me in without having to apologize, and accept your forgiveness, then I'm not gonna play."

Get over it, your argument isn't making any sense. Decent people don't go to a better place when they've spit in the face of their creator, BTW.

I NEVER said that you CANNOT be saved, and go to heaven. Heck, If Paul who murdered Christins for kicks can get in, we ALL can get in.

But we can ONLY get in IF we do its God's way.

Kinda like when someone comes over to your house, and wants to get into your gun stash. If they don't do it your way, chances are they will leave your house feet first, and rightfully so.

Secondly, hell will be full of all kinds of people. But if you believe the Biblical description of hell, its NOT gonna be a party. The Bible describes it as a place where there will be "weeping, and the grinding of teeth, eternal flames that burn you just short of death, where worms are present but are not consumed by the fire, a terrible place.

It is my sincere hope that NO ONE from this board EVER goes to such a place. And it is my confidence, sure is I am typing right now, that no one HAS TO. It would only happen if they CHOSE to go there.

Bill, we've beat this horse to a bloody pulp. I'll let you have the last word (source: Bill O'Reilly)

If you wanna continue beyond that, e-mail me, and we'll spare the other readers my ramblings.

NO don't put it to rest!  Other readers can just not read it!  I'm sure there are a lot of lurkers who are reading and just not posting.

A couple of things bother me.
1. A primitive native, somewhere on Earth has never heard of Jesus. Is He damned?

2. Is this right? Original sin by Adam and Eve caused us all to carry this sin.  Jesus died to forgive us this sin.  Follow Jesus and go to heaven.  I've never liked the carrying of original sin Idea, just like I don't like black reparations:  What my Great Grand-daddy did (his sins of slavery) cannot be held against me.  I had absolutely NOTHING to do with it.  Anyone who tries to pin the sins of my ancestors on me is either insane or morally wrong.  I didn't need Jesus to die for me.  If I am a good person and go to hell anyway then this is an unjust universe.  My view is that God is just, and this cannot happen.

I don't know about the first one(it's bothered me for a while too),. but I think I can clarify the second. It's not like reparations in my view, rather like a mistake they made that we all have to live with.

Adam and Eve were unique among the earthly creatures of God they were given free choice to obey or disobey, free will, as it were. I always kinda thought that this was because God wanted a true expression of love, not one that he forced. He could have made people who automatically love hime, but that woudn't be real love, it would be like having robots.

Anyhoo, he gives them the choice, and they make the wrong one. They yielded to the potential they had for sin(which their children would have had, obedience or not).

See, if you live an absolutely perfect life, then you're right, you don't need Jesus to save you. But you're not, that's the other side of the coin, nobody is. It's not just a matter of being a good person, you would have to be perfect, which only Jesus was. It's like a 200 mile sea, all of us could get a few feet off of the dock on our own merit, but since we're not perfect but only a perfect person can get all the way to the other side. God IS just, we have a problem, he provided the solution.

Did I explain that clearly, rogue? I know I get wordy and confusing.

Juggernaut,

That's not what I'm saying.  

I do not accept Christian morality.  Masturbation is not a sin.  It's a natural body function.  Premarital sex, oral sex, anal sex, etc. are not sins.  They hurt no one, and no one suffers.  There are many other things Christians consider sins that I do not.  

If God says they are sins and we have to atone for them to get into his heaven, then he can keep his heaven.  And if he says I committed a sin just by being born, well...I'll reserve comment on that so as not offend anyone.

Rogue Star brought up an excellent point...the primitive native burns in hell for all eternity because none of you got around to going to his island and spreading the word of Jesus.

I cannot accept such a universe.  It is cruel beyond measure.  How any of you supposedly decent Christians can live all happy with yourselves believing this evil to be true is simply beyond me.


Bill Wallace

Since this is not going away and nobody wants to talk gun any more lets talk Jesus. Which is my first topic I like talking about. Guns second!!

First the primative native will be dealt with in his or her own situation. God will judge him acording to his knowledge and be fair and just.That situation is one of the rarest situations around. The gospel has been preched on every continent. But when the situation arises God will be fair and just.

Now for sin being passed down from adam. Lets say it wasn't passed down and some christians believe that. I believe it was. Before you had the knowledge to comprehend sin you were doing it. And at that point you needed to be washed from sin.Because that behavior cotinues past the age of acountability.  I have two kids and when they were infants I saw them do things that I noticed to be sin. Selfishness,disobedient ect. It came natural. Did you ever say to a kid don't do that what is the first thing they do? What you said not to do!

The other thing is that children have an age of accountability when they have the mental ability to understand the redemtive role of Jesus. So if a kid dies at say 7 he does not go to hell. The same with the pigme on the island. Jesus is fair. The same with a retarded person. The age of accountability is different for each kid. Depending on their maturity.

Bill you say I do things christians say is sin. But you dont think they are sin. If it is sin in gods eyes you need redemtion. If you think it is sin or not.

Last for this post the bible says nothing about masturbation as sin. The thoughts are the sin during the act of masterbating. By the way my wife and I have a great sex life nothing is sin with my wife.That is the way god wanted it!!!

Premarital sex...No one suffers... So it's not a sin...I'm glad you're making the rules Bill, but I really don't want to live in world where you pretend to define morality for anyone but yourself. Thank God I don't.

Blue207 here.  

Everybody pay attention!!!

As to the post where I raised the point Jesus was mid eastern on appearence I would use the following points in support:
Adam and Eve were created at or near the Garden of Eden, which once was near Tigeris and Euphrates rivers (Iraq). The Bible refers to that area as the land of Aram. That is also where the desendents of Adam lived until Abram (later known as Abraham) moved from. They spoke Aramic (duh).
The Torah (Old Testiment) was written in Aramic and Hebrew.

My point - Jesus was the 2nd Adam. He came to "do it right" like the 1st one was supposed to. He would or should have been like Adam in most every way - including appearence.
The odds are he looked similar to most mid eastern men. Just a guess though.
 
BTW - the reference material Garandman was referring to probably includes the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance which has the meanings of EVERY Aramic, Hebrew and Greek word in the King James version Bible. This monumental task was accomplised in the late 1800's if I recall correctly. No word processors. Bummer.

Also, in the initial 7 days of creation as described, "Mankind" was created not just "Man". Later Adam and Eve were created. That is why the Land of Nod had womens waiting to be married by Adam's boys.    

Rouge Star:
1. No the primitive is not damned. How is it the men spoken of in the Old Testement obtained their rewards - by Faith in the Almighty.
God by any other name is still Yaweh/Jehovah, etc. In the event the person has not been told the "Good news" or Gospel of Jesus Christ, he is judged by his own heart.
Think about it. Have you ever met a person that did not really know the difference between right and wrong. (Yes there are some nut cases out there that apparently really do not know but they have other problems, too.)

2. You are judged for your own sin, not your fathers.  We do not carry the sin, but we are effected by it.

I for one will not tell any of you what you should be doing, or not doing, as a Christian.
I will, instead, show you with my life. It is the biggest testimony one can ever have.
If you ask for my opinion then I am free to speak.
As a man I can and will say you may have done a bad thing - that is called a violation of (man's)law.
Even then it is the act that is condemened, not the man.
That judgement is reserved for God Himself.  

Am I "full of myself"? I used to be full of a lot of stuff ;-)). The longer I walk with Him and ask for His help in making me into what He wants me to be, the more flaws and problems
He shows me I have so "we" can correct them.
"We" still have a long way to go.  

I would ask all why they carry life, accident and car insurance and don't consider their
"fire insurance", also.
Most plan for what might happen.
Why not consider ALL the possibilities.

That's all folks.

P.S. What do you have to lose?

I want to say a few more things and didn't know if I was going to have room on the last post.  

The devil is a fallen angel. He wanted to exhault himself above God. He is the God of this world. Presently your god and anyone who does not worship jesus is spirit and in truth. He is behind all the new age stuff, the music that is ungodly, Funny that was his job in heaven was leading the worship music, all the vampire movies and everything that is not of God. Funny thing he is behind GUN CONTROL. Yes you heard me right. To set the stage for anti christ. He will be here soon if he is not already on this earth waiting for his rightful place. Satan wasn't tired of gods BS as you put it. He was sinning. The angels have their free will also.Satan took 1/3 of the angels. They are now called demons. they roam this earth and cause destruction. Their main goal is to get you and all the other people of this earth to reject Jesus. Don't you understand even people in church can go to hell.Because their heart is not with the lord. Their belief is in their head. This is the reason people say christians push their beliefs on use. Well a true christian wants you to know the truth cause it is in his/her heart. And they care about mankind. And want them to be saved.

I am convinced satan has infultrated every part of human power. Demons are everywhere. I also believe angel are there too. Satans time is short. The key to all this is Israel,Gun control and a cashless society. That is how you know anti christ is coming soon.

Isreal will have a peace treaty with the arabs anti christ will do it. The whole peace thing will never happen til he arrives. Funny how the bible talks about this and it is happening now in our time.

Gun control. Can't have a world dictator with guns. Well the UN wants your guns. Funny another thing that falls into place.

Cashless society anti christ will implement this to monitor you and control you. Funny Cash is not the preferred method of payment. Bible prdicts this also. They are testing micro chips in animals. Guess what humans are next.

Bible is not written by men. The words have been put on paper by men but the message is from GOD. They found the dead sea scrolls and they were amazed on how the bible was so exact from long ago.

Noahs ark is to be on MT. ARRARAT. They found samples of gopher wood. The anti christian message has been beaten so many times over it is like gun control it doesn't hold water.
 

Blue 207,

Good to see another brother here!!!

JESUS H. CHRIST!!!

What can of worms did I open!?!
The link was intended as humor, simple sophmoric humor.
Hey, y'all can debate, argue, dialogue, all you want.
But it is quite obvious that your parents were morons; they didn't teach you about the two things you NEVER argue about.

I don't care what God, Buddah,Golden Cow, or Zeus you pray to or worship. If you feel that it makes you a better person, fine, fast from sun up to sun down, cut off your fore skin, whatever.

But don't tell me that I am going to hell for not believing your beliefs!
That makes you no better that any Socialist (and I have a pretty good idea what you think about them).

Here's a question for all you bible-thumpers:
Alledgedly, we are all born with "orignial sin", meaning that according to Christians were phuct right out of the chute.  If we don't accept Jesus as our savior, and rid ourselves of this original sin, it's H-E-Double toothpicks time when we pass on.
Suppose, shortly after birth, a baby dies. Where does that baby spend eternity? If "HELL" is the answer, I want nothing to do with Jesus.

In my short 32 years on this planet, I have seen a lot of bad things and just how som people use their "free will", but I have seen a ton more good things. Life has shat upon me from time to time, and I have done some things that, if ever made know to others, would prevent my from holding public office.
If I end up in the land down under, so be it.

So, please, don't argue with me, try to save me, convert me, or knock on my door to discuss the benefits of your particular religion/cult.

I ain't buying

Paul[}:D]

I had a beer with Jesus at the end of my shift tonight, and he says he's tired of this topic and want us to move on.  By the way, he likes Guinness (cold, on tap or in the can- no bottles!).

Jesus licked my brain in a dream once. He just popped off the top of my head, leaned over, and licked across the top of my brain from one side all the way to the other. Yummy!!!

Does that mean I'm a prophet?

Lets end this guys. I come to AR15.com to talk guns. No one will change the next person so this is my last post on this subject. It is getting out of hand.

Yep, I see him on Southpark periodically.

Did you see the episode where he got his butt kicked by Santa Claus????

Dear Mr. Bill Wallace:

You stated "Well let's assume that all you Christian's are right. Jesus is real, and the only way to Heaven is to accept him and his laws." among some other issues.  I would like to just address the above quote.

You do not have to assume that Jesus was real.  There are many independent sources in literature/history that can PROVE, above any reasonable doubt, that there was a man, Jesus, who proclaimed he was the Son of God. Just as we have proof of historical Rome, there is equivalent historical proof of Jesus.

There is another aspect, however, concerning Jesus.  Yes, he was a living, breathing human being born about 2,000 years ago.  But what about the element of God, our creator, having sent him to die,FOR US, as the cost for our having not obeyed (sin) God's laws ??  What about Jesus having resurrected and is still alive, today??   That, Mr. Wallace, is the whole
remaining issue before us.  Do we choose to believe the many miracles (historically-based accounts of those are available in literature) that Jesus performed as well as accounts of his spoken words about God's abundant love for us and the readily available gift of eternal life?

How difficult is it to believe (sincerely) that God loves you and me and all mankind??  After all, he made us.  And look at the beauty and perfect order of our universe in which we live.  I believe in God (the Father) and in His son (Jesus) and God's Holy Spirit that is imparted into us at the moment we confess that we have sinned against Him [You know you have...but everyone has-- it's a universal thing, sin is] and ask for his forgiveness.

Finally, I would like to close with a comment about your apparent misunderstanding about "his laws".  Jesus stated "God's law" beginning at Matthew 22:36:  "Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

It is really very simple, Christianity that is.  One word--- LOVE.

And I love you, too, Bill Wallace.

lawdog

Lawdog,

I don't buy this whole God's love thing.  God, if he is as you say he is, does not love anyone.

Example:

Let's say your kid gets, for Christmas, a really elaborate ant farm.  The ants come in eggs, and he has to work to hatch them, thus giving them life.  These ants are cute and fuzzy, and he profeses to love his creations.  He starts with two ants, a mama and a papa ant.

This antfarm is like a huge tabletop with glass walls.  In the middle, your kid makes a little "ant paradise".  Little houses, little caves, little ponds, etc.  He considers it perfect.  But his two ants don't want to stay there.  They want to go out and explore the entire ant farm, crawl around on the little cast off pieces of houses, etc. that he put there until he had time to clean it up.  This pisses him off.  Here he made this little ant paradise, and the little ungrateful buggers don't want to stay there.  The ants soon have babies, and soon enough many ants are crawling around the bad part of the ant farm.

So you kid has an idea.  He will go to the nanobot store and buy a robotic ant, and he will fill this ant with a message for the other ants.  This message will be, love your creator, and you will be saved.  Respect his little ant paradise and live there, and you will be saved.  Then, he creates a sticky paper ant trap, and sets another robo-ant there to slowly eat and kill any ants that wind up caught on it.  He sets up this ant trap around the perimiter of the ant farm.

Then he sits back and watches.  Ants that listen to messenger-robo-ant return to the ant paradise that none of them really ever would have lived in of their own free will, while ants that don't, eventually wind up on the sticky paper and suffer and die.

So one day you pass by and you see what your kid is doing.  You bought him this ant farm to teach him responsibility and a respect for life, and you come over and see him set a death trap for ants that don't listen to what he has to say.

What do you say to your kid?  I would smack the crap out of him.

This kid is your god.  Like it or not.

Bill Wallace

Whew, Bill W., give it up, son. You ain't gonna convince us, we ain't gonna convince you.

Peace, brother.[8D]

Eric The Hun

Bill -

Well, I REALLY wanted my last post to be my LAST post on this thread, but your ant analogy is SUCH a good one, I have to comment.

Like I said, its a great analogy, but you omitted a few KEY points, as follows:

1. Unlike the kid, God REALLY DID create humans, and best knows how they operate, how they function, and what is best for them. He establishes rules to keep them from harming themselves, and wants to see them reach their fullest potential, which CANNOT be reached outside of a loving relationship with Him.

2. Along with sending "robo-ant" (that gave me a chuckle) God did something better. Rather than just give them rules to follow, God "enlightented "them - He helped them see His wisdom, and His design in Creation, so that they too could see that their fullest potential and true happiness is to be found in Him.

Better yet, in addition to  sending "the message"  with "robo-ant," God, upon "saving" them thru accepting His Son Jesus (aka "robo Ant)as their Lord and Saviour, re-creates those He saves with both the ability and desire to obey Him.

Understand this - as a child of God right now, I am the freest person on earth. I have the freedom to choose good or evil. In the natural, unsaved state, it is YOU that is slave to sin. You have little choice BUT to sin, as sin is your master. Even when you want to do good, sin steps in, and along with your own choice, you give in to it.

It is the Christian that is free. I am free as the wind. Sin has, with God's power lost its control, and often its appeal to me. Not that I don't sin - I definately still do. But I, with God's power, now have the choice NOT to.

The sad part, Bill, is that you only THINK you are free. You are NOT. You are the slave to sin. AS I was, till God freed me. All the glory goes to Him. I am but a worm that He shed His love and mercy on. But NOW, I am a free worm. Free and happy in Him. Happy to enjoy His creation. Happy to enjoy my firearms, my life, my hobbies, and fellowship with my God.

Life is good.

Okay, garandman.  If God really loves his humans, unlike this kid, as you said in point one, why does he let them be killed on the fly paper devil-ant trap?  If he REALLY loved them, he wouldn't so easily give up on them and damn them to ETERNAL SUFFERING...would he???

This is the point I am trying to hammer into you people, with little apparent success.  HE JUST GIVES UP ON YOU AND MAKES YOU BURN FOREVER.  IS THAT LOVE?  I don't think so.  

Jews can convince me their god loves me too.  Because even though I am not a jew, I can still get into their heaven if I am a good person.  And even if I don't, I'll only suffer long enough to make me see the error of my ways, then up to heaven I go.  I can buy this...I don't, but I can.  It's not offensive to me. Christianity is.  

I really don't understand why so many people hate jews.  They don't go around telling everyone else that they are going to burn in hell.  

Yes, Jesus was a real person, historically.  But I think the would would have been a much better place if he an Muhamed ran into each other before getting a chance to spread their word and killed each other off.  How much suffering we would have been spared...

Bill Wallace

So far there is one thing all the "Truth" Crusaders have not been able to offer us heathens- PROOF.

And, passages from the Bible don't count...