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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:00:52 PM EDT
[#1]
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A man on the ground fighting with 6 people standing, who would need to unholster that weapon in an extreme unorthodox manner, while then manipulating that firearm with one hand, aim it at said officer and fire.. not buying it. 6+ police officers and they could not handle this situation. Maybe they need more training. Trigger happy pigs Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How many guys does it take to subdue one guy. If the cop felt the man was going for his weapon he should have backed up and drawn his weapon. Then let the other guys subdue him. Only if he felt he was or one of his partners was in danger should he have shot the guy. I could not see if the man actually did go for the cops gun, but "going for the cops holstered gun" seems like to easy of an excuse for unjustified shooting. Also the guy at 2:18 looks like a mofo That is all, let the hate begin Pretty fucking hard to just "back up" when someone has a firm grip on your gun/ duty belt.... I'm a weapon retention instructor and your comments indicate someone who has ZERO experience in the subject matter. When someone is going for your gun it is life or death. Period. Shoot them off, cut them off, bite them, whatever. Just don't lose control of your gun. If you do, your odds of being killed with your own gun are about 100% A man on the ground fighting with 6 people standing, who would need to unholster that weapon in an extreme unorthodox manner, while then manipulating that firearm with one hand, aim it at said officer and fire.. not buying it. 6+ police officers and they could not handle this situation. Maybe they need more training. Trigger happy pigs Once again, the voice of no experience.. Spend one morning doing ground fighting and weapon retention training and you would see how uneducated and foolish your comments are. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:04:51 PM EDT
[#2]
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Well this thread is going exactly as I expected. The only upsides to it are nurse ramblings and runcible busting out the flashlight octopus  Most of the chuckleheaded fuckwits who wax poetic about the "Good Old Days" and Maybury RFD just dont understand that at that time when in Doubt the Flashlight Octopus, or Slapper Ocopus, Daystick Octopus, or Sap Octopus would have descended upon them by the time they got out "Are you Det........?????." WHAPWHAPWHAPWHAPWHAPPIYTWHPWHAPWHAP |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:13:37 PM EDT
[#3]
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This exactly. A 4 cell mag light to the grape would've ended this one before it got started. But the days of effectively using impact devices, neck restraints and closed hand strikes are past because it looks bad on video when the cops beat some body down. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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A weapon grab is a lethal force event. It is, but with half a dozen guys on him, seems like a bad idea. Should have just been able to overpower him. In the old days, they would have. But, folks didn't like it when the Flashlight Octopus came out to play, so cops stopped doing it. When I was a cop, that guy would have gone down easy-peasy... and if someone had filmed it and posted in GD, people would have lost their shit. (I'll bet a choke-hold would have worked wonders in that situation.) This exactly. A 4 cell mag light to the grape would've ended this one before it got started. But the days of effectively using impact devices, neck restraints and closed hand strikes are past because it looks bad on video when the cops beat some body down. it also looked bad on Video when half a dozen guys swarm a whacko trying to take him down WITHOUT Hurting him. We had a regular Many MANY moons ago, We would get a call about 4-5 times a year, his Meds would become ineffective, or he'd not take them, and he'd go off....Nice, Normal "Slow" guy when he was medicated...Pissed off Sasquatch with a conibear on his dick off of them. generally it would take the whole shift, one on each arm and leg, one or two on his torso, and one to control his head. USually by the time the ambulance arrived to transport him we'd have him pinned and ready to wrap up. One of the Admin guys decided it would be a good thing to video one of the takedowns to use as a training tool. The father agreed, and the stars aligned the next time he went off, and it worked out perfectly. We sat wand watched the tape afterwards with the Father, who had been thanking us all along for our efforts NOT to hurt his son. about 5 minutes in, he stood up, ejected the tape from the machine, handed it to the Chief and said. Burn that thing..I KNow you were trying to help, YOU know you were helpin him and putting yourselves in danger trying not to hurt him...but if anyone outside ever sees that, you'll have people rioting in the streets. Kid ended up institutionalized finally, but the father was right between the guy screaming, us holding him and putting him on the ground, it LOOKED about 180 degrees OFF from what was actually happening. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:18:39 PM EDT
[#4]
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Ya, I am used to doing everything in my power, not eating for 13 hours during my shift to keep my patients alive. Using all my resources to keep these patients alive. I deal with severe DT, bath salt, etc patients who are more aggressive and frantic than this homeless man was and I can manage keeping them down with myself and 3 other women. I don't give a shit that you .mil and LEO are going to shit on me for my comments. They could have handled this in a non lethal manner Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How many guys does it take to subdue one guy. If the cop felt the man was going for his weapon he should have backed up and drawn his weapon. Then let the other guys subdue him. Only if he felt he was or one of his partners was in danger should he have shot the guy. I could not see if the man actually did go for the cops gun, but "going for the cops holstered gun" seems like to easy of an excuse for unjustified shooting. Also the guy at 2:18 looks like a mofo That is all, let the hate begin Pretty fucking hard to just "back up" when someone has a firm grip on your gun/ duty belt.... I'm a weapon retention instructor and your comments indicate someone who has ZERO experience in the subject matter. When someone is going for your gun it is life or death. Period. Shoot them off, cut them off, bite them, whatever. Just don't lose control of your gun. If you do, your odds of being killed with your own gun are about 100% A man on the ground fighting with 6 people standing, who would need to unholster that weapon in an extreme unorthodox manner, while then manipulating that firearm with one hand, aim it at said officer and fire.. not buying it. 6+ police officers and they could not handle this situation. Maybe they need more training. Trigger happy pigs A subject trying to take possession of your sidearm is a textbook lethal force scenario. Maybe stick to being a Nurse? You're quite obviously in way over your head here. Ya, I am used to doing everything in my power, not eating for 13 hours during my shift to keep my patients alive. Using all my resources to keep these patients alive. I deal with severe DT, bath salt, etc patients who are more aggressive and frantic than this homeless man was and I can manage keeping them down with myself and 3 other women. I don't give a shit that you .mil and LEO are going to shit on me for my comments. They could have handled this in a non lethal manner Of course you are in an environment where the pt cannot access firearms. You are not wearing a firearm and the pt is more often than not sedated on something like haladol or other sedation/ antipsychotic drug... The irony is that a nurse is bitching about cops killing a violent person trying to take an officer's gun. How many unarmed people do nurses kill each year? How many times more than .mil and Leo combined? Trigger happy pigs? Try syringe happy incompetent nurses.... |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:20:55 PM EDT
[#5]
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Ya, I am used to doing everything in my power, not eating for 13 hours during my shift to keep my patients alive. Using all my resources to keep these patients alive. I deal with severe DT, bath salt, etc patients who are more aggressive and frantic than this homeless man was and I can manage keeping them down with myself and 3 other women. I don't give a shit that you .mil and LEO are going to shit on me for my comments. They could have handled this in a non lethal manner Of course you are in an environment where the pt cannot access firearms. You are not wearing a firearm and the pt is more often than not sedated on something like haladol or other sedation/ antipsychotic drug... The irony is that a nurse is bitching about cops killing a violent person trying to take an officer's gun. How many unarmed people do nurses kill each year? How many times more than .mil and Leo combined? Trigger happy pigs? Try syringe happy incompetent nurses.... |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:22:28 PM EDT
[#6]
this has shades of the hobo in California that got killed a few years back by the cops
If you see a big swarm of cops, and you still think it's a good idea to play STUPID fucking games with them, you have to accept that you just might die... No sympathy here. Bye bye hobo. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:23:05 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bet you've got a few bodies under your belt. Have I had pt's die on me after running 45 minute codes from severe cardiogenic shock? Yes, quite a few actually. Have I killed anyone from OD on meds or errors in my assessment? Even though the answer is no, you will still say what you want  What you are doing now is measuring dicks, or tits if you're a 60 yr old nurse. This thread is about police actions, not ECU/ICU/CCU/ER. I respect the challenges you have for your job but there is little in your field that prepares you to make intelligent observations on police tactics. Even seasoned police officers at times refrain from rendering opinions about the actions /tactics of other officers, because they know how volatile and unpredictable those situations are, and how fucking warped the human brain is in dealing with those situations. /ml |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:23:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: probably the same ratio to trigger happy cops? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Wow, another nutjob is off their meds. Which is kind of funny considering my last two girlfriends were nurses and pill head wackos. But that's beside the point... Yeah, the ones in our AO have switched from prescription opiates and are hooked on heroin. probably the same ratio to trigger happy cops?  |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:39:30 PM EDT
[#9]
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How many horses do you own, Nurse? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I can manage keeping them down with myself and 3 other women. I bet the 3 women are more capable than you. Oh, and by the time you 4 ladies receive your "patients", the FD or the PD already made them less combative. LOL, thank god the PD can play nurses How many horses do you own, Nurse? 
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:41:10 PM EDT
[#10]
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You know how hard it is to find a 6 cell Maglight these days?? 
Good shoot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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A weapon grab is a lethal force event. It is, but with half a dozen guys on him, seems like a bad idea. Should have just been able to overpower him. In the old days, they would have. But, folks didn't like it when the Flashlight Octopus came out to play, so cops stopped doing it. When I was a cop, that guy would have gone down easy-peasy... and if someone had filmed it and posted in GD, people would have lost their shit. You know how hard it is to find a 6 cell Maglight these days??
Good shoot. I swear some of my CJ ride alongs make them with their 3D printers. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:42:06 PM EDT
[#11]
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He wasnt going for the cop's gun that shot him. The other cop got up. The cop that shot was in no danger. I don't care what was going on. That was BS. I pray that cop goes to prison. Oh boy! |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:42:31 PM EDT
[#12]
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You sir, are a horrible human being. I'm right there with ya.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I like that a homeless person had a phone to record all of this I always wondered. Do homeless people refer to their cell as their "home phone"?
You sir, are a horrible human being. I'm right there with ya. I bet they get better rate on roaming charges, too 
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:44:21 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He wasnt going for the cop's gun that shot him. The other cop got up. The cop that shot was in no danger. I don't care what was going on. That was BS. I pray that cop goes to prison. You really have no idea, training, or experience to back your opinion up. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:47:12 PM EDT
[#14]
Good Shoot !
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:58:41 PM EDT
[#15]
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My point is that just because someone is homeless doesn't mean they're subhuman scum and that some of them have served their country Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Are homeless veterans "barely human" too? Every homeless veteran I've ever met lied about what he did in the military, as he was trying to press you like an amway rep for money. What's your point? My point is that just because someone is homeless doesn't mean they're subhuman scum and that some of them have served their country Having served your country isn't a license to be an asshole. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 1:59:02 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To be honest I didn't see a gun grab. I don't get how that many police can't get control of a guy. But I'm so used to seeing this stuff that I am desensitized to it and don't care anymore. The political correctness and liberal limp wrists have taken control of how the Government handles UoF situations. The cops are no exception. In the old days you'd just break out the sap and it would be over in one whack, maybe two. Now it takes several cops and a supervisor before anyone wants to go hands on in a situation like this. Another example is..... Take the gloves off and let the military do what they do best and the middle east would be under control. Keeping them restrained is what is getting a lot of innocent people killed. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 2:00:39 PM EDT
[#17]
You can clearly see the hobo's hand on the cop's gun at around 0:15-0:16. That said, the cop had to have gotten it back in order to shoot the guy (which he did, and then...he did). I dunno. The original reason for making contact was legitimate, and he did try to kill a cop. I have no respect for the LAPD whatsoever but I would have to call this a mediocre shoot.
That said, the cop will still be crucified. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 2:01:41 PM EDT
[#18]
Looks like this story is starting to hit FOX they just showed it and will be talking about it shortly.
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Posted: 3/2/2015 2:01:46 PM EDT
[#19]
So don't fight the police don't get shot. It isn't that difficult to grasp.
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Posted: 3/2/2015 2:06:07 PM EDT
[#20]
Meh. Just can't give a fuck.
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Posted: 3/2/2015 2:07:48 PM EDT
[#21]
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You can clearly see the hobo's hand on the cop's gun at around 0:15-0:16. That said, the cop had to have gotten it back in order to shoot the guy (which he did, and then...he did). I dunno. The original reason for making contact was legitimate, and he did try to kill a cop. I have no respect for the LAPD whatsoever but I would have to call this a mediocre shoot. That said, the cop will still be crucified. I stated that in the comments, and some dude said that he enhanced the video and went frame by frame, and that he didn't see the hobo go for the gun. I asked him to upload his "enhanced" video and frame-by-frame so that I could see it as well. 
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Posted: 3/2/2015 2:11:27 PM EDT
[#22]
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So don't fight the police don't get shot. It isn't that difficult to grasp. Should a citizen be able to say No to society (The LEO's in this case)? Ever? |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 2:14:00 PM EDT
[#23]
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I stated that in the comments, and some dude said that he enhanced the video and went frame by frame, and that he didn't see the hobo go for the gun. I asked him to upload his "enhanced" video and frame-by-frame so that I could see it as well. http://i.gyazo.com/9aed4026dd390b1e2eef4b674bcd09d5.png http://i.gyazo.com/487e3b95d372c109b424b2075ddf5cbf.png http://i.gyazo.com/947c719fc7b78dfccc29bcdf9d010ac7.png http://i.gyazo.com/148f60437f90527357391e02c45a3726.png Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You can clearly see the hobo's hand on the cop's gun at around 0:15-0:16. That said, the cop had to have gotten it back in order to shoot the guy (which he did, and then...he did). I dunno. The original reason for making contact was legitimate, and he did try to kill a cop. I have no respect for the LAPD whatsoever but I would have to call this a mediocre shoot. That said, the cop will still be crucified. I stated that in the comments, and some dude said that he enhanced the video and went frame by frame, and that he didn't see the hobo go for the gun. I asked him to upload his "enhanced" video and frame-by-frame so that I could see it as well. http://i.gyazo.com/9aed4026dd390b1e2eef4b674bcd09d5.png http://i.gyazo.com/487e3b95d372c109b424b2075ddf5cbf.png http://i.gyazo.com/947c719fc7b78dfccc29bcdf9d010ac7.png http://i.gyazo.com/148f60437f90527357391e02c45a3726.png This is why "body cams" aren't the silver bullet many claim them to be. One can clearly see the suspect grabbing the officers gun. It's so obvious that it appears the suspect is about to tear the holster off the belt. At the end of the day, people will see what they want to see. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 2:14:59 PM EDT
[#24]
CNN is showing still photos from the video, but somehow they cant find the one at 00:16 that shows the guy grabbing the officers gun.
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Posted: 3/2/2015 2:17:44 PM EDT
[#25]
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Should a citizen be able to say No to society (The LEO's in this case)? Ever? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So don't fight the police don't get shot. It isn't that difficult to grasp. Should a citizen be able to say No to society (The LEO's in this case)? Ever? VA allows force up to and including deadly to deter an illegal arrest. I will fight them with my lawyer. So at least in VA yes, I wouldn't recommend it personally though. 
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Posted: 3/2/2015 2:20:40 PM EDT
[#26]
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This is why "body cams" aren't the silver bullet many claim them to be. One can clearly see the suspect grabbing the officers gun. It's so obvious that it appears the suspect is about to tear the holster off the belt. At the end of the day, people will see what they want to see. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You can clearly see the hobo's hand on the cop's gun at around 0:15-0:16. That said, the cop had to have gotten it back in order to shoot the guy (which he did, and then...he did). I dunno. The original reason for making contact was legitimate, and he did try to kill a cop. I have no respect for the LAPD whatsoever but I would have to call this a mediocre shoot. That said, the cop will still be crucified. I stated that in the comments, and some dude said that he enhanced the video and went frame by frame, and that he didn't see the hobo go for the gun. I asked him to upload his "enhanced" video and frame-by-frame so that I could see it as well. http://i.gyazo.com/9aed4026dd390b1e2eef4b674bcd09d5.png http://i.gyazo.com/487e3b95d372c109b424b2075ddf5cbf.png http://i.gyazo.com/947c719fc7b78dfccc29bcdf9d010ac7.png http://i.gyazo.com/148f60437f90527357391e02c45a3726.png This is why "body cams" aren't the silver bullet many claim them to be. One can clearly see the suspect grabbing the officers gun. It's so obvious that it appears the suspect is about to tear the holster off the belt. At the end of the day, people will see what they want to see. To me, in the original footage, it is clear that the homeless man is grabbing at the black officer's firearm and attempting to take it. I have asked repeatedly for the person to upload his footage that apparently shows without a doubt that the homeless man was not attempting to take the officer's firearm. He has not obliged me. ETA: Oh god  (different person)
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Posted: 3/2/2015 2:23:46 PM EDT
[#27]
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At the end of the day, people will see what they want to see. People will see what the MSM wants them to see. That's why it will be an inflammatory situation instead of an investigative one. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 2:33:45 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Should a citizen be able to say No to society (The LEO's in this case)? Ever? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So don't fight the police don't get shot. It isn't that difficult to grasp. Should a citizen be able to say No to society (The LEO's in this case)? Ever? You can resist an unlawful arrest, but you'd better be right. (I was thinking more along the lines of a cop trying to kill you rather than effect an arrest). After being on ARFcom for a number of years, it is clear that a number of posters have no idea of what is legal and what is not. Many do not understand the Constitution and want to interpret it (or any law) to suit their own views. The place to fight an illegal arrest is in the court, not on the street. On the street, even if you are right, you might be killed or worse. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 2:50:40 PM EDT
[#29]
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Should a citizen be able to say No to society (The LEO's in this case)? Ever? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So don't fight the police don't get shot. It isn't that difficult to grasp. Should a citizen be able to say No to society (The LEO's in this case)? Ever? Even if you're the suspect in a robbery case? (Which was pointed out several pages back) |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 2:55:57 PM EDT
[#30]
It looks like at about 0:23 the officer's gun is no longer in his holster.
Clear gun grab at about 0:16-0:18 |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 2:56:17 PM EDT
[#31]
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Should a citizen be able to say No to society (The LEO's in this case)? Ever? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So don't fight the police don't get shot. It isn't that difficult to grasp. Should a citizen be able to say No to society (The LEO's in this case)? Ever? Wrongful actions have consequences. You lose your choice of yes/no once you screw up and need to be held accountable. This guy got himself armed and was resisting. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I'm tired of white knighting these leeches of society just because they fit into the common theme of "I hate police for xx reasons." Screw it. Have some morals and values, you'll be amazed at how simple and uneventful your life is. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:00:11 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: it also looked bad on Video when half a dozen guys swarm a whacko trying to take him down WITHOUT Hurting him. We had a regular Many MANY moons ago, We would get a call about 4-5 times a year, his Meds would become ineffective, or he'd not take them, and he'd go off....Nice, Normal "Slow" guy when he was medicated...Pissed off Sasquatch with a conibear on his dick off of them. generally it would take the whole shift, one on each arm and leg, one or two on his torso, and one to control his head. USually by the time the ambulance arrived to transport him we'd have him pinned and ready to wrap up. One of the Admin guys decided it would be a good thing to video one of the takedowns to use as a training tool. The father agreed, and the stars aligned the next time he went off, and it worked out perfectly. We sat wand watched the tape afterwards with the Father, who had been thanking us all along for our efforts NOT to hurt his son. about 5 minutes in, he stood up, ejected the tape from the machine, handed it to the Chief and said. Burn that thing..I KNow you were trying to help, YOU know you were helpin him and putting yourselves in danger trying not to hurt him...but if anyone outside ever sees that, you'll have people rioting in the streets. Kid ended up institutionalized finally, but the father was right between the guy screaming, us holding him and putting him on the ground, it LOOKED about 180 degrees OFF from what was actually happening. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A weapon grab is a lethal force event. It is, but with half a dozen guys on him, seems like a bad idea. Should have just been able to overpower him. In the old days, they would have. But, folks didn't like it when the Flashlight Octopus came out to play, so cops stopped doing it. When I was a cop, that guy would have gone down easy-peasy... and if someone had filmed it and posted in GD, people would have lost their shit. (I'll bet a choke-hold would have worked wonders in that situation.) This exactly. A 4 cell mag light to the grape would've ended this one before it got started. But the days of effectively using impact devices, neck restraints and closed hand strikes are past because it looks bad on video when the cops beat some body down. it also looked bad on Video when half a dozen guys swarm a whacko trying to take him down WITHOUT Hurting him. We had a regular Many MANY moons ago, We would get a call about 4-5 times a year, his Meds would become ineffective, or he'd not take them, and he'd go off....Nice, Normal "Slow" guy when he was medicated...Pissed off Sasquatch with a conibear on his dick off of them. generally it would take the whole shift, one on each arm and leg, one or two on his torso, and one to control his head. USually by the time the ambulance arrived to transport him we'd have him pinned and ready to wrap up. One of the Admin guys decided it would be a good thing to video one of the takedowns to use as a training tool. The father agreed, and the stars aligned the next time he went off, and it worked out perfectly. We sat wand watched the tape afterwards with the Father, who had been thanking us all along for our efforts NOT to hurt his son. about 5 minutes in, he stood up, ejected the tape from the machine, handed it to the Chief and said. Burn that thing..I KNow you were trying to help, YOU know you were helpin him and putting yourselves in danger trying not to hurt him...but if anyone outside ever sees that, you'll have people rioting in the streets. Kid ended up institutionalized finally, but the father was right between the guy screaming, us holding him and putting him on the ground, it LOOKED about 180 degrees OFF from what was actually happening. That being said what happened in this case was wrong from both how it was approached and how it turned out. I don't have a ready answer on how it should have been handled though. Tazer? Traq Dart Gun? Net? (Think Planet of the apes human capturing )All I know is what I saw was not the optimal course of action. Not even close.......  |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:12:14 PM EDT
[#33]
The suspect pulled the black cops gun out on the left. You can see it plain as day. Goodnight sweetprince.
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:16:21 PM EDT
[#34]
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Having served your country isn't a license to be an asshole. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Are homeless veterans "barely human" too? Every homeless veteran I've ever met lied about what he did in the military, as he was trying to press you like an amway rep for money. What's your point? My point is that just because someone is homeless doesn't mean they're subhuman scum and that some of them have served their country Having served your country isn't a license to be an asshole. Death Wish is most likely "familiar". He was in another thread this morning apologizing for some Derp he posted last night claiming he was drunk posting. Paging NorCal.... |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:24:30 PM EDT
[#35]
Good shoot.
<-- Not a cop. I've called bad shoots before, but this isn't one. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:26:55 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: it also looked bad on Video when half a dozen guys swarm a whacko trying to take him down WITHOUT Hurting him. We had a regular Many MANY moons ago, We would get a call about 4-5 times a year, his Meds would become ineffective, or he'd not take them, and he'd go off....Nice, Normal "Slow" guy when he was medicated...Pissed off Sasquatch with a conibear on his dick off of them. generally it would take the whole shift, one on each arm and leg, one or two on his torso, and one to control his head. USually by the time the ambulance arrived to transport him we'd have him pinned and ready to wrap up. One of the Admin guys decided it would be a good thing to video one of the takedowns to use as a training tool. The father agreed, and the stars aligned the next time he went off, and it worked out perfectly. We sat wand watched the tape afterwards with the Father, who had been thanking us all along for our efforts NOT to hurt his son. about 5 minutes in, he stood up, ejected the tape from the machine, handed it to the Chief and said. Burn that thing..I KNow you were trying to help, YOU know you were helpin him and putting yourselves in danger trying not to hurt him...but if anyone outside ever sees that, you'll have people rioting in the streets. Kid ended up institutionalized finally, but the father was right between the guy screaming, us holding him and putting him on the ground, it LOOKED about 180 degrees OFF from what was actually happening. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A weapon grab is a lethal force event. It is, but with half a dozen guys on him, seems like a bad idea. Should have just been able to overpower him. In the old days, they would have. But, folks didn't like it when the Flashlight Octopus came out to play, so cops stopped doing it. When I was a cop, that guy would have gone down easy-peasy... and if someone had filmed it and posted in GD, people would have lost their shit. (I'll bet a choke-hold would have worked wonders in that situation.) This exactly. A 4 cell mag light to the grape would've ended this one before it got started. But the days of effectively using impact devices, neck restraints and closed hand strikes are past because it looks bad on video when the cops beat some body down. it also looked bad on Video when half a dozen guys swarm a whacko trying to take him down WITHOUT Hurting him. We had a regular Many MANY moons ago, We would get a call about 4-5 times a year, his Meds would become ineffective, or he'd not take them, and he'd go off....Nice, Normal "Slow" guy when he was medicated...Pissed off Sasquatch with a conibear on his dick off of them. generally it would take the whole shift, one on each arm and leg, one or two on his torso, and one to control his head. USually by the time the ambulance arrived to transport him we'd have him pinned and ready to wrap up. One of the Admin guys decided it would be a good thing to video one of the takedowns to use as a training tool. The father agreed, and the stars aligned the next time he went off, and it worked out perfectly. We sat wand watched the tape afterwards with the Father, who had been thanking us all along for our efforts NOT to hurt his son. about 5 minutes in, he stood up, ejected the tape from the machine, handed it to the Chief and said. Burn that thing..I KNow you were trying to help, YOU know you were helpin him and putting yourselves in danger trying not to hurt him...but if anyone outside ever sees that, you'll have people rioting in the streets. Kid ended up institutionalized finally, but the father was right between the guy screaming, us holding him and putting him on the ground, it LOOKED about 180 degrees OFF from what was actually happening. I feel bad for everybody involved in that situation. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:35:17 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP, what kind of reaction were you expecting? It's a regular day in a 3RD World city in a 3RD World country formerly known as the United States of America. Actually well stated.... |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:41:08 PM EDT
[#38]
Anybody else notice CNN's video is excessively blurred? They appeared to use the blur to protect the officers' identity, but they blur out most of each cops torsos, making the video and sequence of events nigh-unintelligible. I don't think that was a mistake...
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:41:37 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even if you're the suspect in a robbery case? (Which was pointed out several pages back) Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So don't fight the police don't get shot. It isn't that difficult to grasp. Should a citizen be able to say No to society (The LEO's in this case)? Ever? Even if you're the suspect in a robbery case? (Which was pointed out several pages back) And if the citizen knows they are not the actual perpetrator of the crime. I understand the "Day in court", what happens though when society (through the police), decide that you are going to be assaulted in the process of being brought into court, Or the person is in fear for their lives from the police, say the Police uttered phrases such as "I will kill you" or "We are going to stomp you to death". Can that citizen then defend himself against their assault? Not saying that is what happened here, but it is a useful tool to see how far we are willing to allow a citizen to extend their sovereignty over society. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:44:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can resist an unlawful arrest, but you'd better be right. After being on ARFcom for a number of years, it is clear that a number of posters have no idea of what is legal and what is not. Many do not understand the Constitution and want to interpret it (or any law) to suit their own views. The place to fight an illegal arrest is in the court, not on the street. On the street, even if you are right, you might be killed or worse. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So don't fight the police don't get shot. It isn't that difficult to grasp. Should a citizen be able to say No to society (The LEO's in this case)? Ever? You can resist an unlawful arrest, but you'd better be right. After being on ARFcom for a number of years, it is clear that a number of posters have no idea of what is legal and what is not. Many do not understand the Constitution and want to interpret it (or any law) to suit their own views. The place to fight an illegal arrest is in the court, not on the street. On the street, even if you are right, you might be killed or worse. Exactly this. There are so many nuances to lawful arrest that I'd wager 95% of arfcom doesn't truly understand it. Argue in court, don't fight in the street. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:45:26 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can clearly see the hobo's hand on the cop's gun at around 0:15-0:16. That said, the cop had to have gotten it back in order to shoot the guy (which he did, and then...he did). I do believe the hobo was killed by another officer rather than the one who had his firearm snatched. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:46:59 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tazer? Traq Dart Gun? Net? (Think Planet of the apes human capturing )
All I know is what I saw was not the optimal course of action. Not even close.......
"All I know..." That's the problem with situations like this. People without any experience in similar situations look at it from the outside and say, "They did it wrong. I don't know what I would've done, but they did it wrong." I hear what I believe taser in the video, which obviously didn't work. In my experience, tasers are great when they work, but are problematic and unreliable. Their reliability is greatly reduced when used on a non-stationary target. Also, a "tranq gun" or planet of the apes net? I'll assume you're joking. So we have 1 failed tool, 2 wholly unrealistic ones. Once the fight starts, force can only be overcome with greater force. Violence isn't pretty and doesn't make for nice videos. But the reality is, violence is necessary to overcome violence. There is no clean, pretty way to take a combative suspect willing to fight to the death into custody. People sit on their couches, seeing this stuff on the news, and feel bad because they don't like seeing other people get hurt and killed in videos. They then want to protest and legislate violence out of existence, either not realizing or not caring that criminals will continue to disregard the rules. Police use of force is under greater scrutiny in this country right now than it has ever been. Most of this scrutiny comes from people who have never been in a fight, or think that fighting a deranged robbery suspect can be equated to a schoolyard scrap, similar to what they have personally experienced. That scrutiny, in my opinion, has led to more shootings, not less. Failing to use enough force earlier in the encounter usually leads to lethal force incidents. The American patrol officer has practically been stripped of the ability to use closed hand strikes, kicks, neck restraints/chokes, and impact weapons effectively because it looks bad to the public. That leaves OC spray (doesn't stop the fight), taser (unreliable, many officers aren't issued them), or firearm. Society ain't what it used to be. Neither is the job. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:47:42 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And if the citizen knows they are not the actual perpetrator of the crime. I understand the "Day in court", what happens though when society (through the police), decide that you are going to be assaulted in the process of being brought into court, Or the person is in fear for their lives from the police, say the Police uttered phrases such as "I will kill you" or "We are going to stomp you to death". Can that citizen then defend himself against their assault? Not saying that is what happened here, but it is a useful tool to see how far we are willing to allow a citizen to extend their sovereignty over society. How about this example. A male white with a blue hoodie, jeans, and white shoes robs a bank and runs out the door. As he's running into another business, you're walking out. You're wearing a blue hoodie, jeans, and white shoes. The police try to detain you. Do you have the right to resist the police since you didn't rob the bank? Would you resist with violence? |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:52:44 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
All I know is what I saw was not the optimal course of action. Not even close.......
Using less than lethal force to combat lethal force is fucking stupid. Period. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:53:01 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And if the citizen knows they are not the actual perpetrator of the crime. I understand the "Day in court", what happens though when society (through the police), decide that you are going to be assaulted in the process of being brought into court, Or the person is in fear for their lives from the police, say the Police uttered phrases such as "I will kill you" or "We are going to stomp you to death". Can that citizen then defend himself against their assault? Not saying that is what happened here, but it is a useful tool to see how far we are willing to allow a citizen to extend their sovereignty over society. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So don't fight the police don't get shot. It isn't that difficult to grasp. Should a citizen be able to say No to society (The LEO's in this case)? Ever? Even if you're the suspect in a robbery case? (Which was pointed out several pages back) And if the citizen knows they are not the actual perpetrator of the crime. I understand the "Day in court", what happens though when society (through the police), decide that you are going to be assaulted in the process of being brought into court, Or the person is in fear for their lives from the police, say the Police uttered phrases such as "I will kill you" or "We are going to stomp you to death". Can that citizen then defend himself against their assault? Not saying that is what happened here, but it is a useful tool to see how far we are willing to allow a citizen to extend their sovereignty over society. Also important one familiarizes themselves with probable cause vs. beyond a reasonable doubt. For example, knowing that I'm innocent, personally, doesn't mean that probable cause, necessary to effect an arrest, hasn't been established. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:54:54 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can clearly see the hobo's hand on the cop's gun at around 0:15-0:16. That said, the cop had to have gotten it back in order to shoot the guy (which he did, and then...he did). I dunno. The original reason for making contact was legitimate, and he did try to kill a cop. I have no respect for the LAPD whatsoever but I would have to call this a mediocre shoot. That said, the cop will still be crucified. And you have spent how long in Los Angeles to justify your opinion??? |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 3:58:49 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Should a citizen be able to say No to society (The LEO's in this case)? Ever? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So don't fight the police don't get shot. It isn't that difficult to grasp. Should a citizen be able to say No to society (The LEO's in this case)? Ever? I'm pretty sure if he had said, "I'm coming out. Just a moment." and then did that and then said, "no" or answered the questions, he wouldn't have ended up dead. However when you decide to fight at the roadside, things can go south, quickly. I doubt that's ever been mentioned here. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 4:00:44 PM EDT
[#48]
LA knows how to throw a proper riot. This will be good when Jackson and Sharpton come to town.
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Posted: 3/2/2015 4:02:20 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How about this example. A male white with a blue hoodie, jeans, and white shoes robs a bank and runs out the door. As he's running into another business, you're walking out. You're wearing a blue hoodie, jeans, and white shoes. The police try to detain you. Do you have the right to resist the police since you didn't rob the bank? Would you resist with violence? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And if the citizen knows they are not the actual perpetrator of the crime. I understand the "Day in court", what happens though when society (through the police), decide that you are going to be assaulted in the process of being brought into court, Or the person is in fear for their lives from the police, say the Police uttered phrases such as "I will kill you" or "We are going to stomp you to death". Can that citizen then defend himself against their assault? Not saying that is what happened here, but it is a useful tool to see how far we are willing to allow a citizen to extend their sovereignty over society. How about this example. A male white with a blue hoodie, jeans, and white shoes robs a bank and runs out the door. As he's running into another business, you're walking out. You're wearing a blue hoodie, jeans, and white shoes. The police try to detain you. Do you have the right to resist the police since you didn't rob the bank? Would you resist with violence? Excellent question. Where we might be diverging is, you use the word "right" to resist the police. I take it, I do not have the right to resist, society makes the rules by which I am allowed to live under, society probably would not extend me any right to resist it's power, correct? As I know I am completely innocent of the bank robbery, and I am assaulted by the officers in their zeal to arrest me, would I have the right to stop them, if I were in fear for my life? Purely hypothetical question, which interest me. |
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Posted: 3/2/2015 4:05:22 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also important one familiarizes themselves with probable cause vs. beyond a reasonable doubt. For example, knowing that I'm innocent, personally, doesn't mean that probable cause, necessary to effect an arrest, hasn't been established. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So don't fight the police don't get shot. It isn't that difficult to grasp. Should a citizen be able to say No to society (The LEO's in this case)? Ever? Even if you're the suspect in a robbery case? (Which was pointed out several pages back) And if the citizen knows they are not the actual perpetrator of the crime. I understand the "Day in court", what happens though when society (through the police), decide that you are going to be assaulted in the process of being brought into court, Or the person is in fear for their lives from the police, say the Police uttered phrases such as "I will kill you" or "We are going to stomp you to death". Can that citizen then defend himself against their assault? Not saying that is what happened here, but it is a useful tool to see how far we are willing to allow a citizen to extend their sovereignty over society. Also important one familiarizes themselves with probable cause vs. beyond a reasonable doubt. For example, knowing that I'm innocent, personally, doesn't mean that probable cause, necessary to effect an arrest, hasn't been established. This too I understand. A group of 5 or 6 uniformed LEO's appear out of no where, all screaming at you, maybe contradictory orders, half of them are including things like "Move and I will kill you", "Get down or I will kill you", etc. You are in reasonable fear for your life, I understand the smart thing to do is to simply comply and hope that they leave you alive. But where does society allow you to say no to these agents of the state? |
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