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Posted: 1/26/2015 7:12:36 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And yet that unrelenting discipline and harsh punishment existed because they fearless killing machines the likes of which the modern world has never seen used to desert like crazy, and kill their commanders on the regular. Lots of people are attributing the average roman soldiers with their romanticized version of attributes, which was simply not the case. Most soldiers were a simple "fuck this shit" from vanishing in the night. It happened constantly. Modern American troops are infinitely more dedicated and badass than these mythical killing machines you speak of. Your average Roman soldier was a conscript or a converted farmer, poor, illiterate, dumb as a bag of rocks, and unhappy with how harsh the soldiering life turned out to be. Your teleported Roman Legion had better attack the very first day they get there (unlikely, as Stein pointed out their protocol was to pitch camp and attack the next day at earliest) because if they go to sleep, you'll have record desertions when they realize they are being asked to attack this strange, alien, hyper advanced city that lights up like the sun at night, and roars with the voices of monsters (cars passing on nearby freeways). I'm laying even odds that if the Romans don't attack Day 1, they don't attack period...they desert without a fight. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It's funny thinking a bunch of FSA fools are going to unite and become overnight asymmetric warriors. Cars and dump trucks? That might work once or twice before the idiots crash into something and/or get stuck. It wouldn't take the Romans long to figure out that the glass can break and that advantage is nullified. Those guys trained and lived to fight in brutal, horrible hand to hand combat for hours. Eveywhere they went they marched and carried their gear with them. They lived under unrelenting discipline where the punishment was swift and severe. In short they were a breed of killers the likes of which no one in the modern world has seen. Even with technological disadvantages I wouldn't bet against them against a mob of untrained undisciplined civilians who haven't worked for anything in their lives. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile And yet that unrelenting discipline and harsh punishment existed because they fearless killing machines the likes of which the modern world has never seen used to desert like crazy, and kill their commanders on the regular. Lots of people are attributing the average roman soldiers with their romanticized version of attributes, which was simply not the case. Most soldiers were a simple "fuck this shit" from vanishing in the night. It happened constantly. Modern American troops are infinitely more dedicated and badass than these mythical killing machines you speak of. Your average Roman soldier was a conscript or a converted farmer, poor, illiterate, dumb as a bag of rocks, and unhappy with how harsh the soldiering life turned out to be. Your teleported Roman Legion had better attack the very first day they get there (unlikely, as Stein pointed out their protocol was to pitch camp and attack the next day at earliest) because if they go to sleep, you'll have record desertions when they realize they are being asked to attack this strange, alien, hyper advanced city that lights up like the sun at night, and roars with the voices of monsters (cars passing on nearby freeways). I'm laying even odds that if the Romans don't attack Day 1, they don't attack period...they desert without a fight. Tell the Legio V they are protecting the liquor stores. http://www.drunkard.com/issues/55/55-blood-and-wine.html |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 7:25:04 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Vault_Boy Guns might be a bit baffling, but I doubt they'd panic. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Vault_Boy LOL. They would think Jupiter himself is on the FSA's side and killing them with lightning bolts. They would either fall on their knees or break ranks right away. Read The Conquest of New Spain by Bernal Diaz. This was a guy who was part of Cortes' army that subjugated the Aztecs, so it is a (sometimes exaggerated) first-hand account. In one of the first battles they fought with a much larger Aztec army, they fired the artillery. The sound of the cannon fire was sufficient to break the Aztecs' will to fight. The Romans would behave similarly, as they were equally superstitious. |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 7:38:54 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Replace the Roman Legion idea with them to deal with the protesters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Thread needs more waffen ss. This. Replace the Roman Legion idea with them to deal with the protesters.  |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 7:53:06 PM EDT
[#4]
[youtube]http://youtu.be/jFWsG_vla2Q[/youtube]
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Posted: 1/26/2015 7:59:02 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL. They would think Jupiter himself is on the FSA's side and killing them with lightning bolts. They would either fall on their knees or break ranks right away. Read The Conquest of New Spain by Bernal Diaz. This was a guy who was part of Cortes' army that subjugated the Aztecs, so it is a (sometimes exaggerated) first-hand account. In one of the first battles they fought with a much larger Aztec army, they fired the artillery. The sound of the cannon fire was sufficient to break the Aztecs' will to fight. The Romans would behave similarly, as they were equally superstitious. Quote HistoryQuoted: Originally Posted By Vault_Boy LOL. They would think Jupiter himself is on the FSA's side and killing them with lightning bolts. They would either fall on their knees or break ranks right away. Read The Conquest of New Spain by Bernal Diaz. This was a guy who was part of Cortes' army that subjugated the Aztecs, so it is a (sometimes exaggerated) first-hand account. In one of the first battles they fought with a much larger Aztec army, they fired the artillery. The sound of the cannon fire was sufficient to break the Aztecs' will to fight. The Romans would behave similarly, as they were equally superstitious. Roman society: Father could kill or sell into slavery any person in his family. Slavery was completely accepted part of life. Likelihood of surviving childhood was 1:3 against. Life span for simple people was 50-60. Total class warfare between the haves and have nots, with the have nots winning, under Marius, Caesar, Augustus populares. FSA rules, bread and circuses. Army are ultimate FSA, switching sides to whoever pays them more in bonuses or in free land. Rioting is part of life. Most of casualties in warfare would come from sickness, roughly 50-75%. Losses were often due to smart enemies or stupid leadership. Up until Marius if you were a citizen you HAD to serve for 10-16 years, or more. After Marius citizens were still involuntarily enlisted, sometimes for up to 16-25 years. Most training was done because the people who enlisted had barely held a sword, but 3 months of training does not a warrior make. Centurions are notoriously brutal and corrupt, making you pay them so they wont beat the shit out of you. Commanders don't give a shit. Legion and army mutinies are common. Following a commander trying to make a power play to gain the Emperor's chair means almost certain death in near constant civil wars. Weapons almost always made from lowest bidder. Discipline often lax on garrison duty. During campaign seasons march 10-20 miles a day for months, if sick or wounded, you are often abandoned. These were ancient people, with ancient sensibilities, ancient customs, and ancient ways of thinking. They aren't going to adapt for shit in the modern world, not much better than a cave man would. |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 8:16:07 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What Roman formation would whoop a mass of protesters? Any large bunched up formation is going to have issues. The more bunched up, the more issues. What is a platoon sized squad? Is that anything like a company sized brigade? What about a division sized fire team? 
What units of 10 Romans are you referring to because the smallest known tactical subunit was the century. A contubernium? Because that was purely a sleeping arrangement. There is no evidence that files were an actual fighting unit. No evidence of a commander of a file or a tent group as an actual rank. NONE. So dudes wouldn't break off in groups of 10 because that's about as arbitrary as saying groups of 17. No sub-leaders to command a group of 10. A car is nothing like a chariot or horse, its a fucking car. Its not going to veer away, get scared, bleed, or anything else. It goes exactly where the driver points it. And when a 3,567 lbs 2010 Buick Lasabre rams into a group of humans, at 40-50 mph, guess who wins? Not the squishy humans. Now imagine using something a bit sturdier like a box truck, garbage truck, or dump truck. Romans aren't going to step out of the way. Where do they step to? Dudes are on either side of them, front and back, in something called a formation. Once that formation collapses, that's all she wrote, cause unit cohesion is gone and then when that happens, guys will start running. This is the battle site for our little exercise. This is within a block of where Michael Brown got killed and is where a large amount of the rioting took place. Does it look too crowded for a car to maneuver? Its six lanes wide. Plenty of room for cars to maneuver. http://goo.gl/maps/WcsWr Quote HistoryQuoted:
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A roman formation easily whoops a mass of protesters. Sure the occasional gun might be used but not in any great quality. Romans were absolutely no strangers to street fighting. They would meet the initial group eviscerate the first couple dozen protesters. They protesters would break and run. Soldiers could break off into units of 10's and mop up. Sure if you get an AR15 you could mop up in the right situation but I doubt they would be in sufficient numbers. I don't think people would organize into armed militia which is definitely what you needed. The car thing is kinda stupid. Sure if you surprised them and they were stuck in a confined formation ya. But in a platoon sized squad no. People no how to step out of the way. A Buick going 50 kills ya but not my much differently than a chariot does or a column of heavy Calvary. Don't be in its way and it can't run over you. In a city cars would be very compbersome for combat. Those would need to be some fast three point turn arounds. What is a platoon sized squad? Is that anything like a company sized brigade? What about a division sized fire team?
What units of 10 Romans are you referring to because the smallest known tactical subunit was the century. A contubernium? Because that was purely a sleeping arrangement. There is no evidence that files were an actual fighting unit. No evidence of a commander of a file or a tent group as an actual rank. NONE. So dudes wouldn't break off in groups of 10 because that's about as arbitrary as saying groups of 17. No sub-leaders to command a group of 10. A car is nothing like a chariot or horse, its a fucking car. Its not going to veer away, get scared, bleed, or anything else. It goes exactly where the driver points it. And when a 3,567 lbs 2010 Buick Lasabre rams into a group of humans, at 40-50 mph, guess who wins? Not the squishy humans. Now imagine using something a bit sturdier like a box truck, garbage truck, or dump truck. Romans aren't going to step out of the way. Where do they step to? Dudes are on either side of them, front and back, in something called a formation. Once that formation collapses, that's all she wrote, cause unit cohesion is gone and then when that happens, guys will start running. This is the battle site for our little exercise. This is within a block of where Michael Brown got killed and is where a large amount of the rioting took place. Does it look too crowded for a car to maneuver? Its six lanes wide. Plenty of room for cars to maneuver. http://goo.gl/maps/WcsWr I am pulling the number 10 out of my ass because it is in fact just a point of a small subset of troops. Whether it be 10,11, 17, or 23 it doesn't fucking matter. Romans fought often in cities often. To claim otherwise you would be a fucking idiot. A FUCKING IDIOT. I could throw out revolts in Alexandria or purges in Rome through whatever the fuck paranoid emperor at any era. Or Jerusalem. or any times in the mid republican era when the grachi brothers were organizing insurections witht the plebes. It doesn't matter. A rabble pulling the bullshit that ferguson's relatively pussy ass entitled protesters are doing would seem unfucking fair to an experienced legion. Yes a glock fotay would neutralize a number of soldiers but this isn't a soldier or police officer with 7 mags on his plate carrier. This is a scared two mags tops no experience one handing gang banger. Ya a car would run someone over. So would an elephant or a chariot. Ha a car is better but I am pretty confident in my own ability to not get run over. As long as they didn't just freak out at being time portalled to the future in general then perhaps they would just not let people run them over in droves. Some here are just assuming the Romans would be from the late imperial times or from the pussy praetorian guard. What if they are the ones who spent weeks murdering every single person day after day and burning down finished sections of city during the third Carthaginian war? It's annoying saying such things. The western Rome state existed for 1200 fucking years. Until Marius it was citizen landowning soldiers. It had its up and down years but I will say the generation that beat Hannibal was plausibly the toughest bravest most determined that had ever lived. Scipio Africanus wasn't even 20 years old when he invaded new Carthage in Spain. The Romans lost like a third of their senators/government as well as their third straight army in the battle of Cannae. Rome told Hannibal to kill all the hostages and suck a dick. No peace. |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 10:00:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am pulling the number 10 out of my ass because it is in fact just a point of a small subset of troops. Whether it be 10,11, 17, or 23 it doesn't fucking matter. Romans fought often in cities often. To claim otherwise you would be a fucking idiot. A FUCKING IDIOT. I could throw out revolts in Alexandria or purges in Rome through whatever the fuck paranoid emperor at any era. Or Jerusalem. or any times in the mid republican era when the grachi brothers were organizing insurections witht the plebes. It doesn't matter. Let's not call each other names. Truth is, ancient cities look nothing like Ferguson. Outside of Rome and Carthage, most cities barely had a couple hundred or thousand residents. Ancient Rome and Carthage would look like a dump for you if you traveled back in time. The Colosseum was the largest and tallest building at the time. Ancient Romans would be absolutely in awe if they saw Ferguson with its concrete roads and street lighting. They would marvel at 7-Eleven and McDonald's. They could hardly believe that Americans can afford to eat tasty meat every day, with little effort. They would think it is the greatest city ever. They would immediately recognize that this civilization is beyond anything they've experienced. A rabble pulling the bullshit that ferguson's relatively pussy ass entitled protesters are doing would seem unfucking fair to an experienced legion. Yes a glock fotay would neutralize a number of soldiers but this isn't a soldier or police officer with 7 mags on his plate carrier. This is a scared two mags tops no experience one handing gang banger. Your assumption is unsubstantiated. He (or his friends) likely still has a significant ammo stash at home. Now, the Romans could surprise them initially, but they would be back and heavily armed to settle the score. Even with 2 rounds in the Glock Fotay, he would likely kill many legionnaires, after which he could just run away. Ya a car would run someone over. So would an elephant or a chariot. Ha a car is better but I am pretty confident in my own ability to not get run over. As long as they didn't just freak out at being time portalled to the future in general then perhaps they would just not let people run them over in droves. The legion would initially advance as a closed unit. This is ill-suited against a car. Once the car plowed into them, the surviving soldiers would likely break formation and run away. You assume that the Romans would bridge several thousands of years of technological gap instantly, in the middle of the battle. Not likely. Some here are just assuming the Romans would be from the late imperial times or from the pussy praetorian guard. The Praetorian guard was the elite of the Roman army, not pussies. They were the body guards of the Emperor. What are you talking about? What if they are the ones who spent weeks murdering every single person day after day and burning down finished sections of city during the third Carthaginian war? Killing people does not make them better prepared to face firearms and modern technology. With this logic, gang bangers who spent time for murder are equally prepared. It's annoying saying such things. The western Rome state existed for 1200 fucking years. Until Marius it was citizen landowning soldiers. It had its up and down years but I will say the generation that beat Hannibal was plausibly the toughest bravest most determined that had ever lived. Seriously, read a little history before trying to explain the Roman military. The Marian reforms turned the legion into a better - not worse - fighting machine. Soldiers were better armed as they no longer had to buy their own weapons. Poor people could join and become professional soldiers. Weapons and armor became standardized. They basically went from an ad-hoc military to a professionally trained and equipped fighting force. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_reforms#Impact_of_Marian_reforms Scipio Africanus wasn't even 20 years old when he invaded new Carthage in Spain. The Romans lost like a third of their senators/government as well as their third straight army in the battle of Cannae. Rome told Hannibal to kill all the hostages and suck a dick. No peace. Hannibal lived in Italy with his troops for several years. The Romans refused to fight him, opting instead for slow attrition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal#Stalemate The genius of Scipio was to go after Carthage directly instead of trying to battle Hannibal in Italy. Hannibal lost many of his troops and elephants trying to cross the Alps back to his homeland. |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 10:43:58 PM EDT
[#8]
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I am pulling the number 10 out of my ass because it is in fact just a point of a small subset of troops. Whether it be 10,11, 17, or 23 it doesn't fucking matter. Romans fought often in cities often. To claim otherwise you would be a fucking idiot. A FUCKING IDIOT. I could throw out revolts in Alexandria or purges in Rome through whatever the fuck paranoid emperor at any era. Or Jerusalem. or any times in the mid republican era when the grachi brothers were organizing insurections witht the plebes. It doesn't matter. Let's not call each other names. Truth is, ancient cities look nothing like Ferguson. Outside of Rome and Carthage, most cities barely had a couple hundred or thousand residents. Ancient Rome and Carthage would look like a dump for you if you traveled back in time. The Colosseum was the largest and tallest building at the time. Ancient Romans would be absolutely in awe if they saw Ferguson with its concrete roads and street lighting. They would marvel at 7-Eleven and McDonald's. They could hardly believe that Americans can afford to eat tasty meat every day, with little effort. They would think it is the greatest city ever. They would immediately recognize that this civilization is beyond anything they've experienced. A rabble pulling the bullshit that ferguson's relatively pussy ass entitled protesters are doing would seem unfucking fair to an experienced legion. Yes a glock fotay would neutralize a number of soldiers but this isn't a soldier or police officer with 7 mags on his plate carrier. This is a scared two mags tops no experience one handing gang banger. Your assumption is unsubstantiated. He (or his friends) likely still has a significant ammo stash at home. Now, the Romans could surprise them initially, but they would be back and heavily armed to settle the score. Even with 2 rounds in the Glock Fotay, he would likely kill many legionnaires, after which he could just run away. Ya a car would run someone over. So would an elephant or a chariot. Ha a car is better but I am pretty confident in my own ability to not get run over. As long as they didn't just freak out at being time portalled to the future in general then perhaps they would just not let people run them over in droves. The legion would initially advance as a closed unit. This is ill-suited against a car. Once the car plowed into them, the surviving soldiers would likely break formation and run away. You assume that the Romans would bridge several thousands of years of technological gap instantly, in the middle of the battle. Not likely. Some here are just assuming the Romans would be from the late imperial times or from the pussy praetorian guard. The Praetorian guard was the elite of the Roman army, not pussies. They were the body guards of the Emperor. What are you talking about? What if they are the ones who spent weeks murdering every single person day after day and burning down finished sections of city during the third Carthaginian war? Killing people does not make them better prepared to face firearms and modern technology. With this logic, gang bangers who spent time for murder are equally prepared. It's annoying saying such things. The western Rome state existed for 1200 fucking years. Until Marius it was citizen landowning soldiers. It had its up and down years but I will say the generation that beat Hannibal was plausibly the toughest bravest most determined that had ever lived. Seriously, read a little history before trying to explain the Roman military. The Marian reforms turned the legion into a better - not worse - fighting machine. Soldiers were better armed as they no longer had to buy their own weapons. Poor people could join and become professional soldiers. Weapons and armor became standardized. They basically went from an ad-hoc military to a professionally trained and equipped fighting force. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_reforms#Impact_of_Marian_reforms Scipio Africanus wasn't even 20 years old when he invaded new Carthage in Spain. The Romans lost like a third of their senators/government as well as their third straight army in the battle of Cannae. Rome told Hannibal to kill all the hostages and suck a dick. No peace. Hannibal lived in Italy with his troops for several years. The Romans refused to fight him, opting instead for slow attrition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal#Stalemate The genius of Scipio was to go after Carthage directly instead of trying to battle Hannibal in Italy. Hannibal lost many of his troops and elephants trying to cross the Alps back to his homeland. Ofcourse Marius made the legions better. The point is to shrug off some of the bullshit here about rampant desertions and how Romes army was filled with barbarian mercs and lowly peasants Shanghai'd into service. That at many points in their history they were entirely unified in cause. Yes it always wrong to categorize Rome as this or that. Especially their army. There were many many many different periods throughout the empire. So youd say that Fabian was wrong in his strategy? That fact that the Romans demanded repeatedly to go straight at Hannibal was the reason Cannae ahppened. You would be the one who doesn't really get it then. Ya Scipio did NOT directly go at Carthage he went to Spain. When he conquered Spain (something he had absolutely no business doing) he then turned for Cathage proper. They obviously had the military power before Cannae to dance with the smarter and higher moraled Hannibal force while attacking Spain because they did this even after their last best hope an army died at Cannae. I don't think you or anyone can say reasonably that if they tip toed around with Hannibal like Fabian wanted that they wouldn't have been better off having avoided Cannae. The praetorian Guard for the majority of the time were an elite class of Romans not experienced warfighters. They demanded raise after raise after raise and more than murdered emperors and put in what they thought would be puppets(Claudius). They at least once literally auctioned off the princep position to the highest bidder. I think that time it caused the year of the 6 emperors and thus the military dictator ship crisis of the third century. They were probably one of the main reasons Rome fell. They would be the main ones if Diocletian didn't tie a knot at the end of Romes rope. Ya I get it. Romans would be weirded out by future tech. Durrrrrhhhg. It's a hypothetical question of whether Romans who are transported to ferguson to dispel the loots and if they could. Romans fought in lots and lots of city battles/insurections. It's not a question of frickin whether you and your buddy could cause some damage against them if you had the time to go home and start a militia but what would happen to these guys that night. My opinion is that the legion starts to murder and run off the protestors then they go on a rapey booze riot fest of their own while burning down the town. edit: Also please refrain from giving me Wikipedia links right after you tell me to "learn a little history" ok? |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 11:18:36 PM EDT
[#9]
Fair enough. I did not mean to offend you. I just didn't get why you picked the military under Scipio as the best. Now I understand your point better regarding determination.
I think Fabius was correct with his strategy. It was less risky to isolate and weaken Hannibal than to face him in battle again. Also, Spain at the time was part of the Punic Empire. So, it made sense to weaken them. Scipio also had to gain some experience as he was still a kid. Scipio was also smart in attacking Carthage instead of trying to defeat Hannibal in Italy. The Praetorian Guard under Augustus would have been very different than in later years. Still, they were a formidable force. Higher pay means higher competition to be part of their unit. We disagree on the outcome, but I do not have a crystal ball either. But I think the Romans would not be eager to pick a fight right away. Rather, they would likely try to figure out their enemy, so that they can go into battle prepared. I think they would have a tough time coming up with a strategy at that point. |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 11:25:32 PM EDT
[#10]
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Truck vs column of cows (very appropriate to this thread): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2QvBr4dEyY Single sedan (going slow) vs. multiple people on bikes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2QvBr4dEyY Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You realize that a modern day pickup truck or car would be armored against almost anything the Romans had. A hoodie could just plow through the Roman ranks with the window half rolled down shooting at them and they would have a hell of a time stopping it. It would break up their formations pretty quick. Depends on the vehicle. You seen what kind of damage a deer can do if you hit one doing 50mph. Deer usually weigh around 200 to 300 pounds. Cataphracts was armored heavy horse cavalry on Medium weight horses which weighed approximately 1,000 to 1,200 pounds standing 58 to 64 inches tall. Most vehicles won't do well after a collision with a mininum of 1200 pounds object. My guess is that most cars and trucks would be undrivable after that collision. The drivers of any vehicle would likely get an up close and personal view of how a blood eagle would be performed. Not to mention the 4 meter (12 foot) lance coming through the windshield. Car vs. horse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrCHLqit2K8 Tube frame rally-chassis thats meant to take hits and protect the engine so it can keep going. Regular truck: http://wgnsradio.com/files/image/News/horse_VS_Truck.png https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2QvBr4dEyY Single sedan (going slow) vs. multiple people on bikes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2QvBr4dEyY WAIT. So cows know to get out of the way, but Roman Legions are to stupid. |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 11:35:06 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fair enough. I did not mean to offend you. I just didn't get why you picked the military under Scipio as the best. Now I understand your point better regarding determination. I think Fabius was correct with his strategy. It was less risky to isolate and weaken Hannibal than to face him in battle again. Also, Spain at the time was part of the Punic Empire. So, it made sense to weaken them. Scipio also had to gain some experience as he was still a kid. Scipio was also smart in attacking Carthage instead of trying to defeat Hannibal in Italy. The Praetorian Guard under Augustus would have been very different than in later years. Still, they were a formidable force. Higher pay means higher competition to be part of their unit. We disagree on the outcome, but I do not have a crystal ball either. But I think the Romans would not be eager to pick a fight right away. Rather, they would likely try to figure out their enemy, so that they can go into battle prepared. I think they would have a tough time coming up with a strategy at that point. Cool. I think we agree more than we realize. Also I came off about Scipio and Spain a little weird. I meant he had no business winning in Spain because it was a crazy legendary campaign with the likes of Caesar at Alysia. Also he was so young. To start his campaign by going for the throat that was the fortress of New Carthage was very very bold. I guess my main point is that "Romes army" At one time was absolutely nothing like "Romes army" at another time. A specific period or even a specific legion should have been specified I the OP. |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 11:55:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: WAIT. So cows know to get out of the way, but Roman Legions are to stupid. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Depends on the vehicle. You seen what kind of damage a deer can do if you hit one doing 50mph. Deer usually weigh around 200 to 300 pounds. Cataphracts was armored heavy horse cavalry on Medium weight horses which weighed approximately 1,000 to 1,200 pounds standing 58 to 64 inches tall. Most vehicles won't do well after a collision with a mininum of 1200 pounds object. My guess is that most cars and trucks would be undrivable after that collision. The drivers of any vehicle would likely get an up close and personal view of how a blood eagle would be performed. Not to mention the 4 meter (12 foot) lance coming through the windshield. Car vs. horse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrCHLqit2K8 Tube frame rally-chassis thats meant to take hits and protect the engine so it can keep going. Regular truck: http://wgnsradio.com/files/image/News/horse_VS_Truck.png https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2QvBr4dEyY Single sedan (going slow) vs. multiple people on bikes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2QvBr4dEyY WAIT. So cows know to get out of the way, but Roman Legions are to stupid. |
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Posted: 1/26/2015 11:59:54 PM EDT
[#13]
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Ofcourse Marius made the legions better. The point is to shrug off some of the bullshit here about rampant desertions and how Romes army was filled with barbarian mercs and lowly peasants Shanghai'd into service. That at many points in their history they were entirely unified in cause. Yes it always wrong to categorize Rome as this or that. Especially their army. There were many many many different periods throughout the empire. So youd say that Fabian was wrong in his strategy? That fact that the Romans demanded repeatedly to go straight at Hannibal was the reason Cannae ahppened. You would be the one who doesn't really get it then. Ya Scipio did NOT directly go at Carthage he went to Spain. When he conquered Spain (something he had absolutely no business doing) he then turned for Cathage proper. They obviously had the military power before Cannae to dance with the smarter and higher moraled Hannibal force while attacking Spain because they did this even after their last best hope an army died at Cannae. I don't think you or anyone can say reasonably that if they tip toed around with Hannibal like Fabian wanted that they wouldn't have been better off having avoided Cannae. The praetorian Guard for the majority of the time were an elite class of Romans not experienced warfighters. They demanded raise after raise after raise and more than murdered emperors and put in what they thought would be puppets(Claudius). They at least once literally auctioned off the princep position to the highest bidder. I think that time it caused the year of the 6 emperors and thus the military dictator ship crisis of the third century. They were probably one of the main reasons Rome fell. They would be the main ones if Diocletian didn't tie a knot at the end of Romes rope. Ya I get it. Romans would be weirded out by future tech. Durrrrrhhhg. It's a hypothetical question of whether Romans who are transported to ferguson to dispel the loots and if they could. Romans fought in lots and lots of city battles/insurections. It's not a question of frickin whether you and your buddy could cause some damage against them if you had the time to go home and start a militia but what would happen to these guys that night. My opinion is that the legion starts to murder and run off the protestors then they go on a rapey booze riot fest of their own while burning down the town. edit: Also please refrain from giving me Wikipedia links right after you tell me to "learn a little history" ok? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I am pulling the number 10 out of my ass because it is in fact just a point of a small subset of troops. Whether it be 10,11, 17, or 23 it doesn't fucking matter. Romans fought often in cities often. To claim otherwise you would be a fucking idiot. A FUCKING IDIOT. I could throw out revolts in Alexandria or purges in Rome through whatever the fuck paranoid emperor at any era. Or Jerusalem. or any times in the mid republican era when the grachi brothers were organizing insurections witht the plebes. It doesn't matter. Let's not call each other names. Truth is, ancient cities look nothing like Ferguson. Outside of Rome and Carthage, most cities barely had a couple hundred or thousand residents. Ancient Rome and Carthage would look like a dump for you if you traveled back in time. The Colosseum was the largest and tallest building at the time. Ancient Romans would be absolutely in awe if they saw Ferguson with its concrete roads and street lighting. They would marvel at 7-Eleven and McDonald's. They could hardly believe that Americans can afford to eat tasty meat every day, with little effort. They would think it is the greatest city ever. They would immediately recognize that this civilization is beyond anything they've experienced. A rabble pulling the bullshit that ferguson's relatively pussy ass entitled protesters are doing would seem unfucking fair to an experienced legion. Yes a glock fotay would neutralize a number of soldiers but this isn't a soldier or police officer with 7 mags on his plate carrier. This is a scared two mags tops no experience one handing gang banger. Your assumption is unsubstantiated. He (or his friends) likely still has a significant ammo stash at home. Now, the Romans could surprise them initially, but they would be back and heavily armed to settle the score. Even with 2 rounds in the Glock Fotay, he would likely kill many legionnaires, after which he could just run away. Ya a car would run someone over. So would an elephant or a chariot. Ha a car is better but I am pretty confident in my own ability to not get run over. As long as they didn't just freak out at being time portalled to the future in general then perhaps they would just not let people run them over in droves. The legion would initially advance as a closed unit. This is ill-suited against a car. Once the car plowed into them, the surviving soldiers would likely break formation and run away. You assume that the Romans would bridge several thousands of years of technological gap instantly, in the middle of the battle. Not likely. Some here are just assuming the Romans would be from the late imperial times or from the pussy praetorian guard. The Praetorian guard was the elite of the Roman army, not pussies. They were the body guards of the Emperor. What are you talking about? What if they are the ones who spent weeks murdering every single person day after day and burning down finished sections of city during the third Carthaginian war? Killing people does not make them better prepared to face firearms and modern technology. With this logic, gang bangers who spent time for murder are equally prepared. It's annoying saying such things. The western Rome state existed for 1200 fucking years. Until Marius it was citizen landowning soldiers. It had its up and down years but I will say the generation that beat Hannibal was plausibly the toughest bravest most determined that had ever lived. Seriously, read a little history before trying to explain the Roman military. The Marian reforms turned the legion into a better - not worse - fighting machine. Soldiers were better armed as they no longer had to buy their own weapons. Poor people could join and become professional soldiers. Weapons and armor became standardized. They basically went from an ad-hoc military to a professionally trained and equipped fighting force. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_reforms#Impact_of_Marian_reforms Scipio Africanus wasn't even 20 years old when he invaded new Carthage in Spain. The Romans lost like a third of their senators/government as well as their third straight army in the battle of Cannae. Rome told Hannibal to kill all the hostages and suck a dick. No peace. Hannibal lived in Italy with his troops for several years. The Romans refused to fight him, opting instead for slow attrition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal#Stalemate The genius of Scipio was to go after Carthage directly instead of trying to battle Hannibal in Italy. Hannibal lost many of his troops and elephants trying to cross the Alps back to his homeland. Ofcourse Marius made the legions better. The point is to shrug off some of the bullshit here about rampant desertions and how Romes army was filled with barbarian mercs and lowly peasants Shanghai'd into service. That at many points in their history they were entirely unified in cause. Yes it always wrong to categorize Rome as this or that. Especially their army. There were many many many different periods throughout the empire. So youd say that Fabian was wrong in his strategy? That fact that the Romans demanded repeatedly to go straight at Hannibal was the reason Cannae ahppened. You would be the one who doesn't really get it then. Ya Scipio did NOT directly go at Carthage he went to Spain. When he conquered Spain (something he had absolutely no business doing) he then turned for Cathage proper. They obviously had the military power before Cannae to dance with the smarter and higher moraled Hannibal force while attacking Spain because they did this even after their last best hope an army died at Cannae. I don't think you or anyone can say reasonably that if they tip toed around with Hannibal like Fabian wanted that they wouldn't have been better off having avoided Cannae. The praetorian Guard for the majority of the time were an elite class of Romans not experienced warfighters. They demanded raise after raise after raise and more than murdered emperors and put in what they thought would be puppets(Claudius). They at least once literally auctioned off the princep position to the highest bidder. I think that time it caused the year of the 6 emperors and thus the military dictator ship crisis of the third century. They were probably one of the main reasons Rome fell. They would be the main ones if Diocletian didn't tie a knot at the end of Romes rope. Ya I get it. Romans would be weirded out by future tech. Durrrrrhhhg. It's a hypothetical question of whether Romans who are transported to ferguson to dispel the loots and if they could. Romans fought in lots and lots of city battles/insurections. It's not a question of frickin whether you and your buddy could cause some damage against them if you had the time to go home and start a militia but what would happen to these guys that night. My opinion is that the legion starts to murder and run off the protestors then they go on a rapey booze riot fest of their own while burning down the town. edit: Also please refrain from giving me Wikipedia links right after you tell me to "learn a little history" ok? All the history he knows came from wikipedia. Phi Alpha Theta he is not. (You can google that, stein) |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 12:13:57 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am pulling the number 10 out of my ass because it is in fact just a point of a small subset of troops. Whether it be 10,11, 17, or 23 it doesn't fucking matter. Romans fought often in cities often. To claim otherwise you would be a fucking idiot. A FUCKING IDIOT. I could throw out revolts in Alexandria or purges in Rome through whatever the fuck paranoid emperor at any era. Or Jerusalem. or any times in the mid republican era when the grachi brothers were organizing insurections witht the plebes. It doesn't matter. A rabble pulling the bullshit that ferguson's relatively pussy ass entitled protesters are doing would seem unfucking fair to an experienced legion. Yes a glock fotay would neutralize a number of soldiers but this isn't a soldier or police officer with 7 mags on his plate carrier. This is a scared two mags tops no experience one handing gang banger. Ya a car would run someone over. So would an elephant or a chariot. Ha a car is better but I am pretty confident in my own ability to not get run over. As long as they didn't just freak out at being time portalled to the future in general then perhaps they would just not let people run them over in droves. Some here are just assuming the Romans would be from the late imperial times or from the pussy praetorian guard. What if they are the ones who spent weeks murdering every single person day after day and burning down finished sections of city during the third Carthaginian war? It's annoying saying such things. The western Rome state existed for 1200 fucking years. Until Marius it was citizen landowning soldiers. It had its up and down years but I will say the generation that beat Hannibal was plausibly the toughest bravest most determined that had ever lived. Scipio Africanus wasn't even 20 years old when he invaded new Carthage in Spain. The Romans lost like a third of their senators/government as well as their third straight army in the battle of Cannae. Rome told Hannibal to kill all the hostages and suck a dick. No peace. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: A roman formation easily whoops a mass of protesters. Sure the occasional gun might be used but not in any great quality. Romans were absolutely no strangers to street fighting. They would meet the initial group eviscerate the first couple dozen protesters. They protesters would break and run. Soldiers could break off into units of 10's and mop up. Sure if you get an AR15 you could mop up in the right situation but I doubt they would be in sufficient numbers. I don't think people would organize into armed militia which is definitely what you needed. The car thing is kinda stupid. Sure if you surprised them and they were stuck in a confined formation ya. But in a platoon sized squad no. People no how to step out of the way. A Buick going 50 kills ya but not my much differently than a chariot does or a column of heavy Calvary. Don't be in its way and it can't run over you. In a city cars would be very compbersome for combat. Those would need to be some fast three point turn arounds. What is a platoon sized squad? Is that anything like a company sized brigade? What about a division sized fire team? What units of 10 Romans are you referring to because the smallest known tactical subunit was the century. A contubernium? Because that was purely a sleeping arrangement. There is no evidence that files were an actual fighting unit. No evidence of a commander of a file or a tent group as an actual rank. NONE. So dudes wouldn't break off in groups of 10 because that's about as arbitrary as saying groups of 17. No sub-leaders to command a group of 10. A car is nothing like a chariot or horse, its a fucking car. Its not going to veer away, get scared, bleed, or anything else. It goes exactly where the driver points it. And when a 3,567 lbs 2010 Buick Lasabre rams into a group of humans, at 40-50 mph, guess who wins? Not the squishy humans. Now imagine using something a bit sturdier like a box truck, garbage truck, or dump truck. Romans aren't going to step out of the way. Where do they step to? Dudes are on either side of them, front and back, in something called a formation. Once that formation collapses, that's all she wrote, cause unit cohesion is gone and then when that happens, guys will start running. This is the battle site for our little exercise. This is within a block of where Michael Brown got killed and is where a large amount of the rioting took place. Does it look too crowded for a car to maneuver? Its six lanes wide. Plenty of room for cars to maneuver. http://goo.gl/maps/WcsWr I am pulling the number 10 out of my ass because it is in fact just a point of a small subset of troops. Whether it be 10,11, 17, or 23 it doesn't fucking matter. Romans fought often in cities often. To claim otherwise you would be a fucking idiot. A FUCKING IDIOT. I could throw out revolts in Alexandria or purges in Rome through whatever the fuck paranoid emperor at any era. Or Jerusalem. or any times in the mid republican era when the grachi brothers were organizing insurections witht the plebes. It doesn't matter. A rabble pulling the bullshit that ferguson's relatively pussy ass entitled protesters are doing would seem unfucking fair to an experienced legion. Yes a glock fotay would neutralize a number of soldiers but this isn't a soldier or police officer with 7 mags on his plate carrier. This is a scared two mags tops no experience one handing gang banger. Ya a car would run someone over. So would an elephant or a chariot. Ha a car is better but I am pretty confident in my own ability to not get run over. As long as they didn't just freak out at being time portalled to the future in general then perhaps they would just not let people run them over in droves. Some here are just assuming the Romans would be from the late imperial times or from the pussy praetorian guard. What if they are the ones who spent weeks murdering every single person day after day and burning down finished sections of city during the third Carthaginian war? It's annoying saying such things. The western Rome state existed for 1200 fucking years. Until Marius it was citizen landowning soldiers. It had its up and down years but I will say the generation that beat Hannibal was plausibly the toughest bravest most determined that had ever lived. Scipio Africanus wasn't even 20 years old when he invaded new Carthage in Spain. The Romans lost like a third of their senators/government as well as their third straight army in the battle of Cannae. Rome told Hannibal to kill all the hostages and suck a dick. No peace. First, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on the use of the term "often." A couple times every hundred years does not count as "often" in my book. Bragging that your great great grandfather stormed Carthage and that makes you an expert in street fighting is stupid. So before you start calling people "fucking idiots" you need to break out a pad, write down every single instance a legion actually fought it out in legitimate street battles, when, where, and I guaran-fucking-tee that it wasn't often. Generational might be a better word. You bring up the 3rd Punic War and the fall of Carthage. Thank you. Let's spend a bit more time with that. It took four years (149-146 BC) for the city to finally fall. And that wasn't because things went well. In reality they went very poorly. The generals and legions involved fucked off and failed for two whole fucking years before Scipio Aemilianus was put in command. Then it took two more years before the city fell. Since Carthage was a shadow of its former self by 146 BC, I wouldn't exactly call the massacring of the population some great achievement. Next, you bring up "pussy" praetorian guard. Check out the history of those units and you'll see that during the Late Republic Civil War period those units were hardly "pussy" cohorts. See battles of Forum Gallorum and Mutina. Most likely the force at Pharsalus led by the famous Crastinus was also a Praetorian unit. Not pussies, not then, not really ever. You might be confident in your Neo/Matrix style abilities to dodge 50 mph trucks but the story changes when you're shield to shield in a maniple and can't move anywhere as Steinhab in a Ferguson Municipal garbage truck bares down on you while blasting Ride of The Valkyries. You wouldn't be able to dodge shit that way. And a Glock fotay will cut through a scutum, mail, or helmet like butter. Scipio Africanus was 18 years old when he saved his Dad's life at the Battle of Trebia in 218 BC. He was Proconsul in Hispania in 210 BC and took New Carthage that year. Do the math again. Rome lost far more than three armies, they lost over a quarter of a million men through battle in that war. I think in the neighborhood of 12 whole Roman legions were wiped out near completely in that war, not counting smaller casualty numbers. In conclusion, before you post again about platoon sized squads, units of 10, 13, 18 Roman detachments, the wrong age of Roman generals, street fighting, dodging speeding vehicles, or the poor effectiveness of Glock pistols, take a step back and realize you aren't demonstrating expertise to support your argument, quite the opposite. Hit the books. Play nice or don't play at all. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 12:18:18 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These protestors are shaping up to be MOH recipient caliber infantrymen with no regard for,pain or their own well being Remember that old vet that got into the face of one of the streamers? Immagine a legionier thumping his buddy or his son for mouthing off. I GUARUNDAMMTEE YOU that he has at least one long gun nearby and LOTS of friends with long guns and basic tactical skills. At that point it take 1pickup, a bed full of pissed off ARMED good ole boys, and a full tank of gas. Flank and fire, prioritize leaders first. They wouldn't even have to break the speed limit. They roll up on the flank. Mag dump with ARs or mad minute a 30/06 and the density of the legion will be its demise. The shields were stout but unrefined metal. It MIGHT stop an ar round if the angle was right but 30 rnds time 2-4 weapons. A 30/06 or 308 would cut through a half dozen like butter. The thing is. Once they pissed off the non protesters with indisrinant sacking, they would be fighting the rest of fergeson INCLUDING THE OATHKEEPERS. say what you want about them, but up against a legion. My money is on the modern rifles/shotguns/handguns/body armor With either military or police training and tactics. One the legion made its fatal mistake they would be dead or broken or routed by a small group of pissed off moderately trained demons spewing the flames of Vulcan and the thunder and lightning of the wrath of Jupiter. (gunfire) |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 12:25:30 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ofcourse Marius made the legions better. The point is to shrug off some of the bullshit here about rampant desertions and how Romes army was filled with barbarian mercs and lowly peasants Shanghai'd into service. That at many points in their history they were entirely unified in cause. Yes it always wrong to categorize Rome as this or that. Especially their army. There were many many many different periods throughout the empire. During the Civil Wars with Carbo and Marius the Younger vs. Sulla, the Romans conscripted heavily. During Caesar's civil war, the Romans conscripted heavily, which goes for Cassius and Brutus who basically drafted a 150,000 man army to face off with Octavianus and Antony at Philippi. After Varus lost three legions in Germania, Augustus conscripted three full legions (for 16 year periods), and had numerous Romans banished or even executed for dodging military service. Desertions were a major part of Roman military realities and nearly every treaty Rome made with an enemy to end a war included stipulations that deserters be turned back over to Rome. So youd say that Fabian was wrong in his strategy? That fact that the Romans demanded repeatedly to go straight at Hannibal was the reason Cannae ahppened. You would be the one who doesn't really get it then. Ya Scipio did NOT directly go at Carthage he went to Spain. When he conquered Spain (something he had absolutely no business doing) he then turned for Cathage proper. They obviously had the military power before Cannae to dance with the smarter and higher moraled Hannibal force while attacking Spain because they did this even after their last best hope an army died at Cannae. I don't think you or anyone can say reasonably that if they tip toed around with Hannibal like Fabian wanted that they wouldn't have been better off having avoided Cannae. Scipio went to Spain because that was a major theater of war and was where the Senate needed a commander to counter the threat of three Carthaginian armies under Hasdrubal Barca, Mago and Hasdrubal Gisco. Scipio Africanus' father and uncle had recently been killed and the Roman army decimated in battle. Before Carthage itself could be secure, Italy, Cisalpine and Transalpine Gaul, Sicily, and Spain all needed to be secured. The praetorian Guard for the majority of the time were an elite class of Romans not experienced warfighters. They demanded raise after raise after raise and more than murdered emperors and put in what they thought would be puppets(Claudius). They at least once literally auctioned off the princep position to the highest bidder. I think that time it caused the year of the 6 emperors and thus the military dictator ship crisis of the third century. They were probably one of the main reasons Rome fell. They would be the main ones if Diocletian didn't tie a knot at the end of Romes rope. Everything you are writing could also describe most of the legions during that period, especially the "lazy" eastern legions in Syria. Ya I get it. Romans would be weirded out by future tech. Durrrrrhhhg. It's a hypothetical question of whether Romans who are transported to ferguson to dispel the loots and if they could. Romans fought in lots and lots of city battles/insurections. It's not a question of frickin whether you and your buddy could cause some damage against them if you had the time to go home and start a militia but what would happen to these guys that night. Romans as individuals did not fight in lots of city battles/insurrections. If your grandfather fought in a battle in a city it doesn't help you a lick if you are a soldier. Rome didn't have MOUT towns to train, when they sacked cities there was rarely a fight after making it through the walls. Your derping when you shouldn't be. My opinion is that the legion starts to murder and run off the protestors then they go on a rapey booze riot fest of their own while burning down the town. After losing 3/4 of their strength when they rout in fear after a couple ghetto cars blasting rap music ride through their ranks, while dudes shoot them with magic killing wands. edit: Also please refrain from giving me Wikipedia links right after you tell me to "learn a little history" ok? This might help you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Rome |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 12:26:43 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All the history he knows came from wikipedia. Phi Alpha Theta he is not. (You can google that, stein) |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 12:42:32 AM EDT
[#18]
Egyptian protesters vs van. Looks like not all of them were able to get out of its way.
http://youtu.be/dVNj9yeezI0?t=20s |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 12:51:55 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Jesus Christ, there is so much fucking wrong info here I don't even know where to start... First, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on the use of the term "often." A couple times every hundred years does not count as "often" in my book. Bragging that your great great grandfather stormed Carthage and that makes you an expert in street fighting is stupid. So before you start calling people "fucking idiots" you need to break out a pad, write down every single instance a legion actually fought it out in legitimate street battles, when, where, and I guaran-fucking-tee that it wasn't often. Generational might be a better word. You bring up the 3rd Punic War and the fall of Carthage. Thank you. Let's spend a bit more time with that. It took four years (149-146 BC) for the city to finally fall. And that wasn't because things went well. In reality they went very poorly. The generals and legions involved fucked off and failed for two whole fucking years before Scipio Aemilianus was put in command. Then it took two more years before the city fell. Since Carthage was a shadow of its former self by 146 BC, I wouldn't exactly call the massacring of the population some great achievement. Next, you bring up "pussy" praetorian guard. Check out the history of those units and you'll see that during the Late Republic Civil War period those units were hardly "pussy" cohorts. See battles of Forum Gallorum and Mutina. Most likely the force at Pharsalus led by the famous Crastinus was also a Praetorian unit. Not pussies, not then, not really ever. You might be confident in your Neo/Matrix style abilities to dodge 50 mph trucks but the story changes when you're shield to shield in a maniple and can't move anywhere as Steinhab in a Ferguson Municipal garbage truck bares down on you while blasting Ride of The Valkyries. You wouldn't be able to dodge shit that way. And a Glock fotay will cut through a scutum, mail, or helmet like butter. Scipio Africanus was 18 years old when he saved his Dad's life at the Battle of Trebia in 218 BC. He was Proconsul in Hispania in 210 BC and took New Carthage that year. Do the math again. Rome lost far more than three armies, they lost over a quarter of a million men through battle in that war. I think in the neighborhood of 12 whole Roman legions were wiped out near completely in that war, not counting smaller casualty numbers. In conclusion, before you post again about platoon sized squads, units of 10, 13, 18 Roman detachments, the wrong age of Roman generals, street fighting, dodging speeding vehicles, or the poor effectiveness of Glock pistols, take a step back and realize you aren't demonstrating expertise to support your argument, quite the opposite. Hit the books. Play nice or don't play at all. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A roman formation easily whoops a mass of protesters. Sure the occasional gun might be used but not in any great quality. Romans were absolutely no strangers to street fighting. They would meet the initial group eviscerate the first couple dozen protesters. They protesters would break and run. Soldiers could break off into units of 10's and mop up. Sure if you get an AR15 you could mop up in the right situation but I doubt they would be in sufficient numbers. I don't think people would organize into armed militia which is definitely what you needed. The car thing is kinda stupid. Sure if you surprised them and they were stuck in a confined formation ya. But in a platoon sized squad no. People no how to step out of the way. A Buick going 50 kills ya but not my much differently than a chariot does or a column of heavy Calvary. Don't be in its way and it can't run over you. In a city cars would be very compbersome for combat. Those would need to be some fast three point turn arounds. What is a platoon sized squad? Is that anything like a company sized brigade? What about a division sized fire team?
What units of 10 Romans are you referring to because the smallest known tactical subunit was the century. A contubernium? Because that was purely a sleeping arrangement. There is no evidence that files were an actual fighting unit. No evidence of a commander of a file or a tent group as an actual rank. NONE. So dudes wouldn't break off in groups of 10 because that's about as arbitrary as saying groups of 17. No sub-leaders to command a group of 10. A car is nothing like a chariot or horse, its a fucking car. Its not going to veer away, get scared, bleed, or anything else. It goes exactly where the driver points it. And when a 3,567 lbs 2010 Buick Lasabre rams into a group of humans, at 40-50 mph, guess who wins? Not the squishy humans. Now imagine using something a bit sturdier like a box truck, garbage truck, or dump truck. Romans aren't going to step out of the way. Where do they step to? Dudes are on either side of them, front and back, in something called a formation. Once that formation collapses, that's all she wrote, cause unit cohesion is gone and then when that happens, guys will start running. This is the battle site for our little exercise. This is within a block of where Michael Brown got killed and is where a large amount of the rioting took place. Does it look too crowded for a car to maneuver? Its six lanes wide. Plenty of room for cars to maneuver. http://goo.gl/maps/WcsWr I am pulling the number 10 out of my ass because it is in fact just a point of a small subset of troops. Whether it be 10,11, 17, or 23 it doesn't fucking matter. Romans fought often in cities often. To claim otherwise you would be a fucking idiot. A FUCKING IDIOT. I could throw out revolts in Alexandria or purges in Rome through whatever the fuck paranoid emperor at any era. Or Jerusalem. or any times in the mid republican era when the grachi brothers were organizing insurections witht the plebes. It doesn't matter. A rabble pulling the bullshit that ferguson's relatively pussy ass entitled protesters are doing would seem unfucking fair to an experienced legion. Yes a glock fotay would neutralize a number of soldiers but this isn't a soldier or police officer with 7 mags on his plate carrier. This is a scared two mags tops no experience one handing gang banger. Ya a car would run someone over. So would an elephant or a chariot. Ha a car is better but I am pretty confident in my own ability to not get run over. As long as they didn't just freak out at being time portalled to the future in general then perhaps they would just not let people run them over in droves. Some here are just assuming the Romans would be from the late imperial times or from the pussy praetorian guard. What if they are the ones who spent weeks murdering every single person day after day and burning down finished sections of city during the third Carthaginian war? It's annoying saying such things. The western Rome state existed for 1200 fucking years. Until Marius it was citizen landowning soldiers. It had its up and down years but I will say the generation that beat Hannibal was plausibly the toughest bravest most determined that had ever lived. Scipio Africanus wasn't even 20 years old when he invaded new Carthage in Spain. The Romans lost like a third of their senators/government as well as their third straight army in the battle of Cannae. Rome told Hannibal to kill all the hostages and suck a dick. No peace. First, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on the use of the term "often." A couple times every hundred years does not count as "often" in my book. Bragging that your great great grandfather stormed Carthage and that makes you an expert in street fighting is stupid. So before you start calling people "fucking idiots" you need to break out a pad, write down every single instance a legion actually fought it out in legitimate street battles, when, where, and I guaran-fucking-tee that it wasn't often. Generational might be a better word. You bring up the 3rd Punic War and the fall of Carthage. Thank you. Let's spend a bit more time with that. It took four years (149-146 BC) for the city to finally fall. And that wasn't because things went well. In reality they went very poorly. The generals and legions involved fucked off and failed for two whole fucking years before Scipio Aemilianus was put in command. Then it took two more years before the city fell. Since Carthage was a shadow of its former self by 146 BC, I wouldn't exactly call the massacring of the population some great achievement. Next, you bring up "pussy" praetorian guard. Check out the history of those units and you'll see that during the Late Republic Civil War period those units were hardly "pussy" cohorts. See battles of Forum Gallorum and Mutina. Most likely the force at Pharsalus led by the famous Crastinus was also a Praetorian unit. Not pussies, not then, not really ever. You might be confident in your Neo/Matrix style abilities to dodge 50 mph trucks but the story changes when you're shield to shield in a maniple and can't move anywhere as Steinhab in a Ferguson Municipal garbage truck bares down on you while blasting Ride of The Valkyries. You wouldn't be able to dodge shit that way. And a Glock fotay will cut through a scutum, mail, or helmet like butter. Scipio Africanus was 18 years old when he saved his Dad's life at the Battle of Trebia in 218 BC. He was Proconsul in Hispania in 210 BC and took New Carthage that year. Do the math again. Rome lost far more than three armies, they lost over a quarter of a million men through battle in that war. I think in the neighborhood of 12 whole Roman legions were wiped out near completely in that war, not counting smaller casualty numbers. In conclusion, before you post again about platoon sized squads, units of 10, 13, 18 Roman detachments, the wrong age of Roman generals, street fighting, dodging speeding vehicles, or the poor effectiveness of Glock pistols, take a step back and realize you aren't demonstrating expertise to support your argument, quite the opposite. Hit the books. Play nice or don't play at all. Please oh please tell me when I said Scipio was 20 :) Did I say that the final round against Carthage was anything other than that it happened, was a large long city battle and was brutal? About the praetorians. Like I said.... Rome had a lot of periods. Sure they were awesome hear or there. I said that referencing their later imperial reputation for being entitled corrupt emperor murders who weren't really good for anything but supposedly protecting Rome by being the only force allowed in Italy. Even though they proved a horribly unfortunate faction in the emperial era. I am fairly confident in that statement. Rome lost decisively lost three consecutive major encounters in Italy vs. Hannibal and at least cannea resulted in a practical annihilation. Rome was so far down the roster that an 18 year was given a generalship just because he volunteered. That is what I meant. Scipio saving his father as a young kid is likely a myth. Even though his father and uncle died in Iberia where he later conquered which is neat. I know this is just a hypothetical the parameters of which we are making up on the fly in our own minds. This is versus a disorganized rabble not an ad hoc militia consisting of read to go buicks and glock firing lines. Liken to a sacking. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 12:51:57 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Egyptian protesters vs van. Looks like not all of them were able to get out of its way. http://youtu.be/dVNj9yeezI0?t=20s We've been told over and over again that vehicles running people over again don't work, its nice seeing the naysayers proven dead wrong. Again.
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Posted: 1/27/2015 12:59:52 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please oh please tell me when I said Scipio was 20 :) "Scipio Africanus wasn't even 20 years old when he invaded new Carthage in Spain." So you meant he was younger than 20? Did I say that the final round against Carthage was anything other than that it happened, was a large long city battle and was brutal? And? It was one of the few instances where the fight INSIDE the city was contested once the walls were breached. Probably had a lot to do with every Punic knowing their fate was sealed. Even so, the Siege of Carthage campaign was botched for years due to incompetence. After Carthage fell in 146 BC, when was the next contested major street fight that Roman soldiers would have participated in? About the praetorians. Like I said.... Rome had a lot of periods. Sure they were awesome hear or there. I said that referencing their later imperial reputation for being entitled corrupt emperor murders who weren't really good for anything but supposedly protecting Rome by being the only force allowed in Italy. Even though they proved a horribly unfortunate faction in the emperial era. I am fairly confident in that statement. Money and power corrupts, that isn't a huge surprise. But they were never pussies. They stopped being a combat force early on in the Principate and were basically a pure bodyguard force, only occasionally seeing battle. But personnel were pulled from normal legions on the frontiers. Rome lost decisively lost three consecutive major encounters in Italy vs. Hannibal and at least cannea resulted in a practical annihilation. Rome was so far down the roster that an 18 year was given a generalship just because he volunteered. That is what I meant. Scipio saving his father as a young kid is likely a myth. Even though his father and uncle died in Iberia where he later conquered which is neat. HE WASN"T 18! He was 18 years old in the beginning of the war, in 218 BC. In 210 BC, when he was Proconsul of Spain, he was 26 years old! Sorry, but holy shit.  I know this is just a hypothetical the parameters of which we are making up on the fly in our own minds. This is versus a disorganized rabble not an ad hoc militia consisting of read to go buicks and glock firing lines. Liken to a sacking. VERY FUCKING OFTEN. How often? List some dates for us. Show us how often it actually was. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A roman formation easily whoops a mass of protesters. Sure the occasional gun might be used but not in any great quality. Romans were absolutely no strangers to street fighting. They would meet the initial group eviscerate the first couple dozen protesters. They protesters would break and run. Soldiers could break off into units of 10's and mop up. Sure if you get an AR15 you could mop up in the right situation but I doubt they would be in sufficient numbers. I don't think people would organize into armed militia which is definitely what you needed. The car thing is kinda stupid. Sure if you surprised them and they were stuck in a confined formation ya. But in a platoon sized squad no. People no how to step out of the way. A Buick going 50 kills ya but not my much differently than a chariot does or a column of heavy Calvary. Don't be in its way and it can't run over you. In a city cars would be very compbersome for combat. Those would need to be some fast three point turn arounds. What is a platoon sized squad? Is that anything like a company sized brigade? What about a division sized fire team? What units of 10 Romans are you referring to because the smallest known tactical subunit was the century. A contubernium? Because that was purely a sleeping arrangement. There is no evidence that files were an actual fighting unit. No evidence of a commander of a file or a tent group as an actual rank. NONE. So dudes wouldn't break off in groups of 10 because that's about as arbitrary as saying groups of 17. No sub-leaders to command a group of 10. A car is nothing like a chariot or horse, its a fucking car. Its not going to veer away, get scared, bleed, or anything else. It goes exactly where the driver points it. And when a 3,567 lbs 2010 Buick Lasabre rams into a group of humans, at 40-50 mph, guess who wins? Not the squishy humans. Now imagine using something a bit sturdier like a box truck, garbage truck, or dump truck. Romans aren't going to step out of the way. Where do they step to? Dudes are on either side of them, front and back, in something called a formation. Once that formation collapses, that's all she wrote, cause unit cohesion is gone and then when that happens, guys will start running. This is the battle site for our little exercise. This is within a block of where Michael Brown got killed and is where a large amount of the rioting took place. Does it look too crowded for a car to maneuver? Its six lanes wide. Plenty of room for cars to maneuver. http://goo.gl/maps/WcsWr I am pulling the number 10 out of my ass because it is in fact just a point of a small subset of troops. Whether it be 10,11, 17, or 23 it doesn't fucking matter. Romans fought often in cities often. To claim otherwise you would be a fucking idiot. A FUCKING IDIOT. I could throw out revolts in Alexandria or purges in Rome through whatever the fuck paranoid emperor at any era. Or Jerusalem. or any times in the mid republican era when the grachi brothers were organizing insurections witht the plebes. It doesn't matter. A rabble pulling the bullshit that ferguson's relatively pussy ass entitled protesters are doing would seem unfucking fair to an experienced legion. Yes a glock fotay would neutralize a number of soldiers but this isn't a soldier or police officer with 7 mags on his plate carrier. This is a scared two mags tops no experience one handing gang banger. Ya a car would run someone over. So would an elephant or a chariot. Ha a car is better but I am pretty confident in my own ability to not get run over. As long as they didn't just freak out at being time portalled to the future in general then perhaps they would just not let people run them over in droves. Some here are just assuming the Romans would be from the late imperial times or from the pussy praetorian guard. What if they are the ones who spent weeks murdering every single person day after day and burning down finished sections of city during the third Carthaginian war? It's annoying saying such things. The western Rome state existed for 1200 fucking years. Until Marius it was citizen landowning soldiers. It had its up and down years but I will say the generation that beat Hannibal was plausibly the toughest bravest most determined that had ever lived. Scipio Africanus wasn't even 20 years old when he invaded new Carthage in Spain. The Romans lost like a third of their senators/government as well as their third straight army in the battle of Cannae. Rome told Hannibal to kill all the hostages and suck a dick. No peace. First, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on the use of the term "often." A couple times every hundred years does not count as "often" in my book. Bragging that your great great grandfather stormed Carthage and that makes you an expert in street fighting is stupid. So before you start calling people "fucking idiots" you need to break out a pad, write down every single instance a legion actually fought it out in legitimate street battles, when, where, and I guaran-fucking-tee that it wasn't often. Generational might be a better word. You bring up the 3rd Punic War and the fall of Carthage. Thank you. Let's spend a bit more time with that. It took four years (149-146 BC) for the city to finally fall. And that wasn't because things went well. In reality they went very poorly. The generals and legions involved fucked off and failed for two whole fucking years before Scipio Aemilianus was put in command. Then it took two more years before the city fell. Since Carthage was a shadow of its former self by 146 BC, I wouldn't exactly call the massacring of the population some great achievement. Next, you bring up "pussy" praetorian guard. Check out the history of those units and you'll see that during the Late Republic Civil War period those units were hardly "pussy" cohorts. See battles of Forum Gallorum and Mutina. Most likely the force at Pharsalus led by the famous Crastinus was also a Praetorian unit. Not pussies, not then, not really ever. You might be confident in your Neo/Matrix style abilities to dodge 50 mph trucks but the story changes when you're shield to shield in a maniple and can't move anywhere as Steinhab in a Ferguson Municipal garbage truck bares down on you while blasting Ride of The Valkyries. You wouldn't be able to dodge shit that way. And a Glock fotay will cut through a scutum, mail, or helmet like butter. Scipio Africanus was 18 years old when he saved his Dad's life at the Battle of Trebia in 218 BC. He was Proconsul in Hispania in 210 BC and took New Carthage that year. Do the math again. Rome lost far more than three armies, they lost over a quarter of a million men through battle in that war. I think in the neighborhood of 12 whole Roman legions were wiped out near completely in that war, not counting smaller casualty numbers. In conclusion, before you post again about platoon sized squads, units of 10, 13, 18 Roman detachments, the wrong age of Roman generals, street fighting, dodging speeding vehicles, or the poor effectiveness of Glock pistols, take a step back and realize you aren't demonstrating expertise to support your argument, quite the opposite. Hit the books. Play nice or don't play at all. Please oh please tell me when I said Scipio was 20 :) "Scipio Africanus wasn't even 20 years old when he invaded new Carthage in Spain." So you meant he was younger than 20? Did I say that the final round against Carthage was anything other than that it happened, was a large long city battle and was brutal? And? It was one of the few instances where the fight INSIDE the city was contested once the walls were breached. Probably had a lot to do with every Punic knowing their fate was sealed. Even so, the Siege of Carthage campaign was botched for years due to incompetence. After Carthage fell in 146 BC, when was the next contested major street fight that Roman soldiers would have participated in? About the praetorians. Like I said.... Rome had a lot of periods. Sure they were awesome hear or there. I said that referencing their later imperial reputation for being entitled corrupt emperor murders who weren't really good for anything but supposedly protecting Rome by being the only force allowed in Italy. Even though they proved a horribly unfortunate faction in the emperial era. I am fairly confident in that statement. Money and power corrupts, that isn't a huge surprise. But they were never pussies. They stopped being a combat force early on in the Principate and were basically a pure bodyguard force, only occasionally seeing battle. But personnel were pulled from normal legions on the frontiers. Rome lost decisively lost three consecutive major encounters in Italy vs. Hannibal and at least cannea resulted in a practical annihilation. Rome was so far down the roster that an 18 year was given a generalship just because he volunteered. That is what I meant. Scipio saving his father as a young kid is likely a myth. Even though his father and uncle died in Iberia where he later conquered which is neat. HE WASN"T 18! He was 18 years old in the beginning of the war, in 218 BC. In 210 BC, when he was Proconsul of Spain, he was 26 years old! Sorry, but holy shit. I know this is just a hypothetical the parameters of which we are making up on the fly in our own minds. This is versus a disorganized rabble not an ad hoc militia consisting of read to go buicks and glock firing lines. Liken to a sacking. VERY FUCKING OFTEN. How often? List some dates for us. Show us how often it actually was. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 1:56:41 AM EDT
[#22]
I'll eat crow on scipios age.
To be honest if we are talking about the average soldiers experience no. But the average soldier probably never fought a large set piece battle either. Patrolling around brittanica, the Rhine, protecting the Hellenic class in Alexandria and loving it up in Syria were probably the average experience. Didn't mean that the average soldier would be disorganized when it came to lining up in a maniple during its time. The army itself had a learned heritage of strategies and tactics and history. What I am saying is that Roman armies fought in cities. They did. Maybe not in pitch equal force on force battles but keeping the rabble down was a major part of the job and it did it. Stomping on Jerusalem, Rome, Constantinople and the natives in Egypt were not weird occurrences in their day. It probably happened in small amounts more than we know. Not worth using parchment and writing in a book when a putting down some rabble rousing levelers in this or that community need to be beaten down and have a few dudes crucified. Even with the handful of serious serious Jewish insurections there was a constant rebel attitude among the natives their. I brought up the praetorians because I feel that posters were generalizing Romans as ill disciplined conscripted peasants or merc barbarians. Rome conquered because it's war making culture. Sure that waxed and waned throughout their history and disappeared around their last two hundred years but Rome fought above its weight for most of its history. It wasn't there theology, technology, or their government which was special about them it wa that the first 700 years of their history they knew how to win battles or at least continue fielding armies well after any other civ. would just crumple. We basically are in agreement about the praetorians. I guess I just focused on the later emperial part. To add. I don't think The soldiers would need any formations at all you could just tell them hey you just conquered this city and got past their walls go have fun and rape some people. The results would be just as devastating and the protestors would crumple just as fast. Edit: There are actually plenty of recorded civil insurections that the legions dealt with. It's just whatever I made my points. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 2:17:50 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
WAIT. So cows know to get out of the way, but Roman Legions are to stupid. I seem to see plenty who didn't get out of the way, and those cows weren't packed into a tight box formation. It isn't that the Romans are too stupid to get out of the way, it is the fact that when you are packed together as tightly as they were (which was their strength), if you try to leap to your right or left there is another Roman already occupying that space. And the Romans on the outside can't move too far out of the way either, as there are buildings on either side in Ferguson. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 2:17:51 AM EDT
[#24]
Any rational person with a reading of antiquity understands ancients were superstitious and battles were won by routing, not by killing. One flank folds up and the entire army deserts. This idea they would stand and fight to the death is complete fiction. There were legitimate units such as the Sacred Band of Thebes and Carthage that fought to the death, but they were just a small core of units.
Caesar's WAY outnumbered army - his cavalry smashed into pompey's line and rolled it up like a rug http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pharsalus Alexander's WAY outnumbered army was victorious over the Darius' men with one single cavalry charge to the front of an out of formation infantry line in the presence of their king. Alexander himself rode at the apex of the cavalry wedge making him the largest testicled man in antiquity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaugamela |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 2:23:32 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice find, like bowling pins going down. But I am surprised none of the Egyptians stabbed through the windshield as they were being run over.
We've been told over and over again that vehicles running people over again don't work, its nice seeing the naysayers proven dead wrong. Again. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Egyptian protesters vs van. Looks like not all of them were able to get out of its way. http://youtu.be/dVNj9yeezI0?t=20s
We've been told over and over again that vehicles running people over again don't work, its nice seeing the naysayers proven dead wrong. Again. Also worth pointing out, all those Egptians had previously seen a car and new that being run over by one was bad news. Add to the fact that the Romans would have no clue what they were looking at...bad news for the Romans as they are about to learn. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 2:26:27 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any rational person with a reading of antiquity understands ancients were superstitious and battles were won by routing, not by killing. One flank folds up and the entire army deserts. This idea they would stand and fight to the death is complete fiction. There were legitimate units such as the Sacred Band of Thebes and Carthage that fought to the death, but they were just a small core of units. Caesar's WAY outnumbered army - his cavalry smashed into pompey's line and rolled it up like a rug http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pharsalus Alexander's WAY outnumbered army was victorious over the Darius' men with one single cavalry charge to the front of an out of formation infantry line in the presence of their king. Alexander himself rode at the apex of the cavalry wedge making him the largest testicled man in antiquity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaugamela and Carthage only fought to the death because Rome wanted them all dead. There would be no peace or armistice. They just plane wanted them all gone and Carthage off the face of the earth. They had their backs against the wall. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 2:27:35 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To add. I don't think The soldiers would need any formations at all you could just tell them hey you just conquered this city and got past their walls go have fun and rape some people. The results would be just as devastating and the protestors would crumple just as fast. Wow, you suggest throwing away the greatest strength the Roman army had, and send them in completely unorganized into a strange and hyper advanced city against people who are armed with guns and intimate knowledge of the city. Devastating indeed, for the poor Romans. Romans fighting as a disorganized mob was their nightmare. Hence, severe punishment if you broke formation. Their swords were very ill suited to one on one open combat...that is not what a Gladius is designed for, and one on one without the strength of the formation your average Roman was at a disadvantage against most of the foes of his time, let alone modern man with our super weapons by comparison. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 2:28:25 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also worth pointing out, all those Egptians had previously seen a car and new that being run over by one was bad news. Add to the fact that the Romans would have no clue what they were looking at...bad news for the Romans as they are about to learn. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Egyptian protesters vs van. Looks like not all of them were able to get out of its way. http://youtu.be/dVNj9yeezI0?t=20s
We've been told over and over again that vehicles running people over again don't work, its nice seeing the naysayers proven dead wrong. Again. Also worth pointing out, all those Egptians had previously seen a car and new that being run over by one was bad news. Add to the fact that the Romans would have no clue what they were looking at...bad news for the Romans as they are about to learn. The question wasn't whether an ad hoc counter attack would win it was whether or not the soldiers could beat those rioters right then and there and disperse them as if it was the middle of Rome. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 2:36:02 AM EDT
[#29]
So are we all saying "Glock fotay" now? You guys need to tell me this stuff.
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Posted: 1/27/2015 2:42:45 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow, you suggest throwing away the greatest strength the Roman army had, and send them in completely unorganized into a strange and hyper advanced city against people who are armed with guns and intimate knowledge of the city. Devastating indeed, for the poor Romans. Romans fighting as a disorganized mob was their nightmare. Hence, severe punishment if you broke formation. Their swords were very ill suited to one on one open combat...that is not what a Gladius is designed for, and one on one without the strength of the formation your average Roman was at a disadvantage against most of the foes of his time, let alone modern man with our super weapons by comparison. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
To add. I don't think The soldiers would need any formations at all you could just tell them hey you just conquered this city and got past their walls go have fun and rape some people. The results would be just as devastating and the protestors would crumple just as fast. Wow, you suggest throwing away the greatest strength the Roman army had, and send them in completely unorganized into a strange and hyper advanced city against people who are armed with guns and intimate knowledge of the city. Devastating indeed, for the poor Romans. Romans fighting as a disorganized mob was their nightmare. Hence, severe punishment if you broke formation. Their swords were very ill suited to one on one open combat...that is not what a Gladius is designed for, and one on one without the strength of the formation your average Roman was at a disadvantage against most of the foes of his time, let alone modern man with our super weapons by comparison. Show me all the superior weapons the FSA dindu's (dindu's for their being complaining FSA not the color of their skin) are Weilding in ferguson. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 2:43:38 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So are we all saying "Glock fotay" now? You guys need to tell me this stuff. Someone hasn't been reading the email newsletter. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 3:03:41 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Romans fighting as a disorganized mob was their nightmare. Hence, severe punishment if you broke formation. Their swords were very ill suited to one on one open combat...that is not what a Gladius is designed for, and one on one without the strength of the formation your average Roman was at a disadvantage against most of the foes of his time, let alone modern man with our super weapons by comparison. There was an interesting battle between Boudicca and Suetonius around AD 60. The Romans realized that they cannot hold Londinium, so they evacuated. The city was subsequently sacked by the Iceni, who then killed tens of thousands. This tells you that the legions did not like fighting in cities if they did not have the advantage. Suetonius then set up his troops - approximately 1 or 2 legion strong - in a narrow gorge with a forest behind him. This made sure he could not be flanked. The Romans then fought in a close formation to beat back the numerically superior Iceni, as they attacked them frontally in multiple waves. Overall, the strategy was very similar to the one used by the Spartans in the Battle of Thermopylae. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Watling_Street#Battle "Stick together. Throw the javelins, then push forward: knock them down with your shields and finish them off with your swords" The Romans would likely use a similar strategy in Ferguson. They would be concerned about the enemy flanking them, and they would have faith in holding back a direct frontal assault. They'd line up on the road just like the riot police did, shields in hand and buildings covering their flanks on both sides. They would then march forward in an orderly fashion. They would throw javelins at the protesters, then attempt to cut them down. Protesters would flee in terror initially. However, some would return armed, and in their vehicles. The Romans would likely treat cars as chariots and trust their formation to hold them back. The slow moving tight formation would make an easy target for firearms, and also could not dodge any cars. Once protesters opened fire on the legion, the legion's movement would come to a halt. The surviving soldiers could not believe the devastation. Once the Romans realized that they cannot hold off the frontal attack, the whole strategy would fall apart, and the soldiers would rout. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 9:53:25 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I seem to see plenty who didn't get out of the way, and those cows weren't packed into a tight box formation. It isn't that the Romans are too stupid to get out of the way, it is the fact that when you are packed together as tightly as they were (which was their strength), if you try to leap to your right or left there is another Roman already occupying that space. And the Romans on the outside can't move too far out of the way either, as there are buildings on either side in Ferguson. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
WAIT. So cows know to get out of the way, but Roman Legions are to stupid. I seem to see plenty who didn't get out of the way, and those cows weren't packed into a tight box formation. It isn't that the Romans are too stupid to get out of the way, it is the fact that when you are packed together as tightly as they were (which was their strength), if you try to leap to your right or left there is another Roman already occupying that space. And the Romans on the outside can't move too far out of the way either, as there are buildings on either side in Ferguson. The point was that even stupid beef dinners with legs know enough to move over. Will some people get squished, undoubtedly. But if you think you're going to run people over repeatedly and the thinking, combat veteran, Romans are just going to sit around you are going to be sorely mistaken. Needing to turn a dump truck means your going to have to slow down to painfully low rates of speed. I'm pretty sure my 3 year old can understand that concept. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 10:04:33 AM EDT
[#34]
Dang it, enough of this!
Someone go to Ferguson and talk to some rioters/protestors, and someone go find about 5000 people from isolated tribes with no clue about modern tech and society, and get them trained and equipped up to Roman standards from some set time period, and let's make this thing happen for real. (I'm just the idea man here, someone else can handle finances.) |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 10:17:19 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would also bet that the average American, even in the 'hood, would be at least a foot taller than the average Roman soldier. It would like the Romans would be going up against giants. Personally, I'd rather just have modern police given the training and a proper force continuum to deal with rioters. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 10:21:15 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryHoly fuck, so many lessons in that story. Behind every great man is a great woman (or you can substitute powerful / cunning, whatever). Money talks, and bullshit walks. People will fuck over anyone for money and power. I'm sure there are others... |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 11:25:53 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The point was that even stupid beef dinners with legs know enough to move over. Will some people get squished, undoubtedly. But if you think you're going to run people over repeatedly and the thinking, combat veteran, Romans are just going to sit around you are going to be sorely mistaken. Needing to turn a dump truck means your going to have to slow down to painfully low rates of speed. I'm pretty sure my 3 year old can understand that concept. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: WAIT. So cows know to get out of the way, but Roman Legions are to stupid. I seem to see plenty who didn't get out of the way, and those cows weren't packed into a tight box formation. It isn't that the Romans are too stupid to get out of the way, it is the fact that when you are packed together as tightly as they were (which was their strength), if you try to leap to your right or left there is another Roman already occupying that space. And the Romans on the outside can't move too far out of the way either, as there are buildings on either side in Ferguson. The point was that even stupid beef dinners with legs know enough to move over. Will some people get squished, undoubtedly. But if you think you're going to run people over repeatedly and the thinking, combat veteran, Romans are just going to sit around you are going to be sorely mistaken. Needing to turn a dump truck means your going to have to slow down to painfully low rates of speed. I'm pretty sure my 3 year old can understand that concept. Combat veterans from 2,000 years ago are going to have two options if a big ass truck is quickly approaching their formation, both of which work perfectly to the truck drivers. - They can stand still and try to protect themselves by locking shields and posting out spears and javelins, akin to how they would resist against horses and even elephants. And get crushed by something 1,000x worse than a horse or war elephant - They can all break formation and run to the only place open, the rear, which will cause a big ass hole to open in their line. Once others see that hole open, and more trucks enter that hole, the integrity of the line (that most important thing in battle) is in doubt, and dudes everywhere will run. Your 3 year old could probably understand what I'm stating but for some reason you cant. So once more, for you and others that have difficulty understanding things, let me spell it out. Reasons the Romans would get their asses kicked in Ferguson 1. Romans march and fight in formations. That's how they roll. Don't like it? Want a more "fluid" unit better at skirmishing? Then don't pick the Romans. 2. The fight between Romans and rioters would happen here: http://goo.gl/maps/J3xz3 Which is where the rioting took place, where stores were looted, only a block away from where Michael Brown was killed. In the width of Florissant Ave (5 lanes), you can fit probably a whole cohort on line. You can also fit at least two dump trucks to drive comfortably in one direction. 3. The Roman force depends upon maintaining the integrity of the line. Casualties didn't cause routs, loss of unit integrity causes holes in lines, allowing enemy to come through them and threaten the sides and rears of other formations, causes routs. Commanders like centurions, praefects, tribunes can only control the men if they have them in formations that allow one person to control 60-100 men, which means a tightly packed rectangle. Loose formation require self discipline, lots of independent training, and pre-designated small unit leaders like platoon/squad/section/team leaders, none of which was done by the Romans. The smallest tactical subunit was the fighting century, controlled by a centurion, assisted by a few others. 4. When a garbage truck drives into that rectangle of flesh, wood, iron, at 50 mph, bad things are going to happen and it wont be to the truck. As demonstrated by the video of the truck driving through a herd of cow, running over those massive beasts did little to even slow it down. So a garbage truck will punch right through the initial line of Romans, leaving nothing but broken bodies in its wake. Those in the way of the truck will be crushed, those immediately outside the way will be in shock as they see what they think can only be a mythical invulnerable metal beast run through their formation like it was nothing. Unit integrity for a century/maniple that takes a solid hit would be fucking GONE. Key leaders would probably die and if they didn't, they wouldn't have a fucking clue what order to give. Meanwhile, panic will spread within the unit. The only thing an officer could do is try to calm the men and get them back in formation, filling in the holes in the line, which just makes them more vulnerable to second echelon attacks from more trucks. 5. Behind the initial Roman line, also marching on Florissant toward the FSA protesters, will be more lines of Roman infantry, more echelons, but spaced out between each other. These forces will have seen the truck run though the 1st line (probably made up of the more elite units). Now we go back to the two options. Individually, they can all make up their minds rather quickly: Stay and get crushed, or run and lose cohesion. You don't need a PhD in Roman history to know what they will probably do. Do the Romans have any means they are aware of to stop the armored elephant cheetahs? No, so that means running away. 6. Meanwhile, the truck doesn't need to turn, it doesn't need to do anything but keep driving straight down Florissant, in a steady manner, in a decent speed, until it either crashed through every Roman line or chased everyone away. It served its purpose, as a modern version of a fully training, unflinching, fully armored elephant on speed. The driver can continue on a few miles and hit McDonalds for a double cheeseburger while other trucks repeat what he did. 7. Instead of doing this all with just one truck, you can do it with many trucks. Steal every box truck, garbage truck, and dump truck you can find in Ferguson, fuel them up, put them in pairs, coordinate in the most basic means. Each echelon would basically drive unopposed through the Roman line, destroying it, each successive wave guaranteeing victory that much easier. By the 3rd wave of trucks, they'd just be crushing already dead bodies into more road pizza because by then the Roman legion as a whole, having seen all this happen, would know they have NOTHING that can stop these metal elephant cheetahs and they would rout, trying to run back to the safety of their camp. They wouldn't march away in good order and discipline, because to do so would face the wrath of another truck running into them. Truckers would target large groups, not small ones. Now you might think you're brilliant by stating beforehand "I'll simply break my legions up into small groups and that way I wont have to worry about trucks." The problem with that is twofold. One is that it relies on Romans from 2,000 years ago knowing how dangerous trucks will be to their formation or that they even exist. In addition, an order like that can't just be given out quickly to the men in battle. Once shocking acts of brutality and carnage begin occurring against the Romans in the form of big ass trucks crushing them, no one is going to be patiently wait for new orders in the form of trumpet calls, dipping standards, or messengers, especially when loud ear splitting music is being pumped into the neighborhood, to purposely conduct sensory overload. More realistic and important is that ordering "Pursuit" (Legion speak for the trumpet call that releases the army to continue attacking, but out of formation) makes it notoriously hard to control the men thereafter. A tactic widely used in the ancient world was to feign retreat to cause the enemy to give chase early, which would cost them unit integrity, only to turn at a predesignated time and fight them as a whole unit (Thermopylae, Chaeronea, Cannae). Releasing infantry in pursuit was ONLY done in the ancient world if the enemy were either already routing (not a hint of true resistance or it could mean disaster), in terrain like forests or mountains (against equally loose enemy), or in heavily built up cities when fighting in formations wasn't possible. (By built up cities I mean extreme close housing, alley ways and large blocks of tenement apartments; in forums they fought in formation). When released, leaders have little control over their men, it takes a VERY long time to gather everyone back into some cohesive force, removes the protection of the group/formation and does not allow the soldiers to properly defend themselves against a threatening force or adversary. The strength of the ancient soldier was not individual, it relied on teamwork and cohesiveness, which is why battles were designed not to kill people but to break down an enemy's cohesion. How would a small group of Romans going house to house act when a house they entered blew up like the volcano of Versuvius (someone inside cut gas line and ran out back door)? You think they'd keep going? What leader would stop them from running away? I believe "herding cats" would be the best way of describing any attempt to reform a unit in contact. The emergency rooms of most major cities are full of people there because they couldn't dodge traffic. Unless your alter ego is named Superman or the Flash, you're not dodging shit either. Trucks would cut through the formation of a Roman like a baseball through tissue paper. It would literally be like bowling, but the pins would explode in blood, bone, and guts. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 11:37:07 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Show me all the superior weapons the FSA dindu's (dindu's for their being complaining FSA not the color of their skin) are Weilding in ferguson. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: To add. I don't think The soldiers would need any formations at all you could just tell them hey you just conquered this city and got past their walls go have fun and rape some people. The results would be just as devastating and the protestors would crumple just as fast. Wow, you suggest throwing away the greatest strength the Roman army had, and send them in completely unorganized into a strange and hyper advanced city against people who are armed with guns and intimate knowledge of the city. Devastating indeed, for the poor Romans. Romans fighting as a disorganized mob was their nightmare. Hence, severe punishment if you broke formation. Their swords were very ill suited to one on one open combat...that is not what a Gladius is designed for, and one on one without the strength of the formation your average Roman was at a disadvantage against most of the foes of his time, let alone modern man with our super weapons by comparison. Show me all the superior weapons the FSA dindu's (dindu's for their being complaining FSA not the color of their skin) are Weilding in ferguson. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 11:59:55 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Totally. Round them up, gas them, and into the ovens, right? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thread needs more waffen ss. This. Replace the Roman Legion idea with them to deal with the protesters. I don't know about you but If I had the choice I'd much rather live in German controlled France than Roman controlled France. 
.....or 
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Posted: 1/27/2015 12:02:13 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know about you but If I had the choice I'd much rather live in German controlled France than Roman controlled France. http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o800/avdubya/Mobile%20Uploads/fgr_zpsogx1trce.jpg .....or http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o800/avdubya/Mobile%20Uploads/cruc_zpsesuoyq5l.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Thread needs more waffen ss. This. Replace the Roman Legion idea with them to deal with the protesters. I don't know about you but If I had the choice I'd much rather live in German controlled France than Roman controlled France. http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o800/avdubya/Mobile%20Uploads/fgr_zpsogx1trce.jpg .....or http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o800/avdubya/Mobile%20Uploads/cruc_zpsesuoyq5l.jpg A more realistic pic of how the Germans dealt with the locals, vice a comfy cafe shot: |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 12:28:55 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can option C be "Neither"? A more realistic pic of how the Germans dealt with the locals, vice a comfy cafe shot: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gZacT-D72ws/UrmKYXXe_GI/AAAAAAAAIC8/oxHDw-PNKBY/s1600/Georges+Blind,+a+member+of+the+French+resistance,+smiling+at+a+German+firing+squad,+1944.jpg Even so, the number of Gauls the Germans killed while taking the country pales in comparison to Caesar's total. I don't think the world wars put together would equal the percentage of Frenchmen killed by just a few legions. It was Verdun all summer long for a few years there. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 12:32:56 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'd venture to guess that I could have them all up and running on the care and feeding of a Remington 870 within a matter of hours. Personally, I'd rather just have modern police given the training and a proper force continuum to deal with rioters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I would also bet that the average American, even in the 'hood, would be at least a foot taller than the average Roman soldier. It would like the Romans would be going up against giants. Personally, I'd rather just have modern police given the training and a proper force continuum to deal with rioters.  How would you train a group of 6,000 modern English speakers on the use of a modern firearm in the course of a few hours? Are you such a great instructor that the US military should hire you? How long would it take you to teach a large group (60-80) of New Guinea tribesman or South Africa bushmen how to "care and feed" a shotgun? What would you emphasize first to a people who have no concept of what gunpowder is, or that loud noises like gun shots don't mean the Gods are upset? Romans wouldn't do much better than them in learning modern technology. Do you speak Latin by chance? |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 12:39:59 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even so, the number of Gauls the Germans killed while taking the country pales in comparison to Caesar's total. I don't think the world wars put together would equal the percentage of Frenchmen killed by just a few legions. It was Verdun all summer long for a few years there. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Can option C be "Neither"? A more realistic pic of how the Germans dealt with the locals, vice a comfy cafe shot: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gZacT-D72ws/UrmKYXXe_GI/AAAAAAAAIC8/oxHDw-PNKBY/s1600/Georges+Blind,+a+member+of+the+French+resistance,+smiling+at+a+German+firing+squad,+1944.jpg Even so, the number of Gauls the Germans killed while taking the country pales in comparison to Caesar's total. I don't think the world wars put together would equal the percentage of Frenchmen killed by just a few legions. It was Verdun all summer long for a few years there. In comparison, WWII was only a few generations ago and without trying to start a new debate about ethics and war, the overall conduct of the German state controlled by the National Socialists was a little light in the way of humanity and morality. Its a bit easier to forgive Caesar than Hitler, Caesar died 2,000 years ago and Hitler died 70 years ago. The wounds are still fresh enough...
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Posted: 1/27/2015 12:58:13 PM EDT
[#44]
After Caesar conquered Gaul, the Romans brought 200 years of peace and development. They were not crucifying people left and right for no reason, but rather trading with them and building roads, aqueducts, markets, etc. Gauls were protected by Roman law, and lots of them (eventually, all of them, in 212 AD) even acquired full Roman citizenship.
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Posted: 1/27/2015 1:01:52 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Caesar actually showed much clemency in how he dealt with the various revolting Gallic tribes. Those that stayed loyal to him consistently benefited greatly, many were made citizens and some Gallic nobility were even inducted into the Roman Senate at the tail end of his dictatorship. That was their problem, they usually only stayed loyal until Caesar and his armies left town then it was right back to being devious and planning rebellion. Thus the reason so many of them were eventually killed. It's ironic that while Caesar no doubt murdered millions, it was his 'softness' that caused him so much trouble, and his passion for clemency eventually led to his death. If he would've put most of the tribes to the sword to begin with the campaign would've been a lot shorter. Similarly, if he hadn't pardoned Brutus and friends who knows what would've happened. That's part of what makes him so interesting I guess. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 1:05:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even so, the number of Gauls the Germans killed while taking the country pales in comparison to Caesar's total. I don't think the world wars put together would equal the percentage of Frenchmen killed by just a few legions. It was Verdun all summer long for a few years there. In WWII, France surrendered to Germany without a fight, so that is why there were no casualties. WWI, on the other hand, was a completely different story. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 1:14:14 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That was their problem, they usually only stayed loyal until Caesar and his armies left town then it was right back to being devious and planning rebellion. Thus the reason so many of them were eventually killed. It's ironic that while Caesar no doubt murdered millions, it was his 'softness' that caused him so much trouble, and his passion for clemency eventually led to his death. If he would've put most of the tribes to the sword to begin with the campaign would've been a lot shorter. Similarly, if he hadn't pardoned Brutus and friends who knows what would've happened. That's part of what makes him so interesting I guess. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Caesar actually showed much clemency in how he dealt with the various revolting Gallic tribes. Those that stayed loyal to him consistently benefited greatly, many were made citizens and some Gallic nobility were even inducted into the Roman Senate at the tail end of his dictatorship. That was their problem, they usually only stayed loyal until Caesar and his armies left town then it was right back to being devious and planning rebellion. Thus the reason so many of them were eventually killed. It's ironic that while Caesar no doubt murdered millions, it was his 'softness' that caused him so much trouble, and his passion for clemency eventually led to his death. If he would've put most of the tribes to the sword to begin with the campaign would've been a lot shorter. Similarly, if he hadn't pardoned Brutus and friends who knows what would've happened. That's part of what makes him so interesting I guess. In Gaul, Caesar subdued all the Gauls north of Roman Transalpine Gaul province, and he did it in 10 years. At the end of his 10 years, he got treaties from EVERY single tribe. Either that, or the tribes were destroyed by either Caesar's army or most likely by other tribes with Roman blessing. In the Principate, Gaul and Spain both became the best recruiting grounds for soldiers too, as the lands were still filled with semi-civilized tribal-esque Gauls, Lusitanians, Celtibernians who still had a cultural penchant for fighting. Coupled with some Roman civilization and organizational concepts and cross innovation, they did rather well at it too. A substantial part of the corps of the Roman assassins were former subordinate senior officers of Caesar, so I don't think clemency had much to do with it. Jealousy, and the knowledge that for the elite of Rome, the only advancement they'd get would come by Caesar, was what prompted his assassination. In the Republic, every Senator was in a way their own King. To be denied the freedom to pursue the cursus honorum on their own was a major slap in the face. When Caesar and Rex became synonyms, his death warrant was signed. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 1:21:54 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In WWII, France surrendered to Germany without a fight, so that is why there were no casualties. WWI, on the other hand, was a completely different story. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Even so, the number of Gauls the Germans killed while taking the country pales in comparison to Caesar's total. I don't think the world wars put together would equal the percentage of Frenchmen killed by just a few legions. It was Verdun all summer long for a few years there. In WWII, France surrendered to Germany without a fight, so that is why there were no casualties. WWI, on the other hand, was a completely different story. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 2:14:35 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In WWII, France surrendered to Germany without a fight, so that is why there were no casualties. WWI, on the other hand, was a completely different story. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Even so, the number of Gauls the Germans killed while taking the country pales in comparison to Caesar's total. I don't think the world wars put together would equal the percentage of Frenchmen killed by just a few legions. It was Verdun all summer long for a few years there. In WWII, France surrendered to Germany without a fight, so that is why there were no casualties. WWI, on the other hand, was a completely different story. You fail at history. Plus, they lost a significant percentage of their male population in WW 1. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 3:50:48 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Show me all the superior weapons the FSA dindu's (dindu's for their being complaining FSA not the color of their skin) are Weilding in ferguson. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
To add. I don't think The soldiers would need any formations at all you could just tell them hey you just conquered this city and got past their walls go have fun and rape some people. The results would be just as devastating and the protestors would crumple just as fast. Wow, you suggest throwing away the greatest strength the Roman army had, and send them in completely unorganized into a strange and hyper advanced city against people who are armed with guns and intimate knowledge of the city. Devastating indeed, for the poor Romans. Romans fighting as a disorganized mob was their nightmare. Hence, severe punishment if you broke formation. Their swords were very ill suited to one on one open combat...that is not what a Gladius is designed for, and one on one without the strength of the formation your average Roman was at a disadvantage against most of the foes of his time, let alone modern man with our super weapons by comparison. Show me all the superior weapons the FSA dindu's (dindu's for their being complaining FSA not the color of their skin) are Weilding in ferguson. Ummmm, guns? Surely some of the folks present had them. |
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