I'll make a habitable world, with a sectioned off paradise for man.  He'll want for nothing, and never have to leave the garden.  I only have to place the tree of knowledge where they can't get to it, maybe the other side of the world... Nah, Eve seems legit, and the talking snake I made to tempt them knows better, I'll just stick the tree in the middle of their habitat.  I know all things past and future, but I'm deliberately overlooking all that while I make this decision.

 

But the greatest man ever probably lives to be old and happy.  His friends and family will remember him fondly, perhaps even human history.  

Hitler had a stressful life, watched his dreams and nation destroyed, and shot himself in a hole to avoid capture by his enemies.  He was disavowed by everyone and is hated by people born long after his death.

Life isn't a test with a reward or a punishment at the end of it.

Life IS the reward, or it IS the punishment, and while it isn't always just or fair, we have to live our lives in such a way as to make it as much a reward as possible.

the solstice is the reason for the season!

My reply is just:  The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary Habermas
Jesus did exist
Jesus was crucified
The Apostles believed they saw Him alive after his death
The tomb was empty
The conversion of church persector Saul of Tarsus
Conversion of Jesus' skeptical brother James

The majority of new testament scholars agree on these things, opposing naturalist theories have to deal with all the evidence and...they cant.

And I believe it because Christ changed my life by personal experience and being we are all dying I know i literally need a Savior and desire eternal life so I hope in Him and won't ever go back to foolish nihilsm.  Atheist, Agnostic, what are you fighting for, the hope that death is the end, that none of it meant anything, to go into the darknever to be or know ever again. No waking up, no "next", think about it, reaaallly think about it, and when you think you've got it, think harder.  That is a really hopeless belief and one no one really lives consistent with.  Jesus died that you could know Him and have life too amd hope of being resurrected as He was.  It's worth looking at the actual historical evidence.

 

Existed?  Yes.  Carpenter?  Yes.  Rabbi?  Yes.  Super powers?  No.  Had wife and offspring?  More than likely.

Lots of whistling past the graveyard lately

Anti-Christian bullshit, completely made up by Gerald Massey, a known fraud.  The "Counter Arguments" section of the link in the OP delineates this well.  Also:

http://www.jonsorensen.net/2012/10/25/horus-manure-debunking-the-jesushorus-connection/

I hear this repeated ad nauseum, but it's simply not true.  There is not a single reference outside of the New Testament that would have been contemporary or eye-witness.

I wouldn't be so sure about that.



Uh, ok?



Zero "proof"?  Sure.  Also zero "proof" of the JEDP theory.  We have plenty of evidence, however, that the Pentateuch is based on source material written by Moses.  The references to Moses writing parts of the Torah are too numerous to ignore.

Have you read the New Testament, if you haven't you should, good stuff.  Jesus didn't come as a philosopher miracle workee, he came claiming to the the promised Messiah, the unique Son of God.  He predicted that he would die, which os what was prophesied of him, and that he would rise again on the third day.  This was the major proof of his deity as the Son of the Father, God.  His disciples didn't believe he was raised and were hiding because he was dead, dead messiah is no messiah.  The "Good News" is literally Jesus' death, buriel, and resurrection.  1 Corinthians 15 includes an ancient creed dated less than 20 years from Jesus' death that states this.  The sermons throughout Acts are based on this.  Everything is based on Jesus' resurrection from the start.  The Apostles died as witnesses of the resurrected Jesus, as in they ate and drank with him and emphatically knew he was risen, so they either died for what they knew to be a lie and wrote the most impactful moral liturature ever, or they really saw him risen.   The myths that developed were that Jesus was only a spirit, that was Gnosticism, they denied his bodily resurrection.  So "tall-tales" went away from the original resurrection narrative, not to it.  And false religions ever since have denied his resurrection, the denial is the myth.  

As for science, the Bible is full of skepticim and people rejecting God.  It is why God performed signs, miracles, because they are the evidence to convince the doubting idle worshipers that there is One Creator.  In fact it takes that evidence to distinguish the truth from lies, the true God from the polytheist idols, hence God chose a people and performed all kinds of signs.  You should read the Bible and see for yourself the proofs God and Jesus give so people would have good evidence to believe.  You might also want to look at the evidence against Evolution and the Big Bang since you probably believe those things too.  Creation.com is a good start.

To be fair without morality (honor,justice, right/worng)  being instituted by something recognized as a higher authority they are nothing more than social norms and to judge someone else actions would be ego-centrism.

Why is it a problem that it could be the same story told in a different way, to a different civilization in a way that they would understand?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophany

I was told I was a Christian when I was raised, but attended church a handful of times during my life. Yet, I feel like the laws of the God of the Bible were written into heart. I don't know why. I think most men feel the same way.  Most men know it is wrong to hurt other people in any way without cause. Where does that come from?

Or the opposite conclusion could be drawn.  

With no gods or masters, we are all equal. Respecting the rights to life, liberty, and property of others and ourselves isn't egocentric at all.  If your actions aren't hurting anyone no one has any right to judge.  With a "higher power" you open the door for all manner of irrational judgement against your fellow man.

Social norms are more powerful than laws in terms of their effect on human behavior, so even if you'd rather not call it morality the net result is the same.  

Evolution.  Societies made up of lawless murderers would either kill themselves off or be killed off by the other tribes who got tired of their shit.  Stable communities would also outbreed scavenger groups.

Don't kill and Don't steal have been basic tenets of human society for as long as there have been societies.  It's nothing divine, it's because we ourselves don't want to be killed or stolen from.  We wouldn't agree to live among strangers who weren't also likeminded.

Unless you're talking about honoring the sabbath and not making idols and things like that, I don't think that typically resonates within most people.

From what I was told, Jesus is actually Chewbacca:

1.) Jesus in Spanish is Jesús
2.) The nickname for a person named Jesús is Chuy
3.) Chuy is also the nickname for Cheebacca.

Jesus ==> Jesús => Chuy <== Chewbacca

Yep, just like global warming skeptics, and "straight" people who talk about gays.



We all know they aren't fooling anyone.



 

Those aren't the only two options.



 

With no gods or masters we are not equal in any sense. I use my divine right of kings to assert what ever i think is right on whatever subject that so happens to come along .  
Actions would not be judged by weather they hurt anyone everything would be permissible. Do you even anomie theory bro, or how about label theroy.  Your view of right or wrong is subject to your self and no other.   Have you even seen the state of the world, hell you can barely find instances of more than 5 people agreeing on something on these forums. And you honestly believe that you could bring a society of different values together peaceful and get them to agree on a systematic social structure  

Come on, op. You are not supposed to do this thread until Christmas Eve.
Thanks for ruining the Arfcom tradition.

 

I'm glad I do too.

A man's got to know his limitations.

Demonic Possession or at the very least demonic influence.  What they seem not to understand Is that if the bible is correct, that it makes perfect sense there are similarities. Satan knew the personhood of GOD, he knew the prophesies of the coming messiah and would himself influence man and their false religions to muddy the waters. Just as he is influencing those today, as is apparent in this thread.

 

So why doesn't God do more miracles now to help out all those people who he knows will have trouble believing old stories of questionable veracity?

It's civilized now?

Interesting.

The Divine right of Kings was divine, ie from god.  It is how countless rulers across countless nations came to power:  physical violence and divine right.

I mention life, liberty, and property as rights.  That's all people have to agree on to have a free society.  If you don't hurt your neighbors and they don't hurt you everything else is an easily overcome obstacle.  This is why so many societies and religions have some form of the "golden rule" as a central tenet.

As far as how people would behave in the real world, that's not what I'm discussing.  I am addressing the philosophical idea that without supernatural authority there is no good or evil.  I posit that the only real evil is that which harms your neighbor, he is your equal and you have no right to harm him.  Anything that doesn't hurt someone else is "good" by default.  

Judging murder to be "evil" isn't ethnocentric or anything else of the sort.  To take an innocent person's life against their will is unacceptable, based on our common humanity.  Whether they share cultural values or social norms with us is irrelevant, cultures should be as varied as people, but murder shames us as a species. Murder is a crime against humanity, and all humans have a right to judge it as such.

The fact that jails are full of religious people should suggest that neither real-world nor eternal punishment is enough to sway the criminal from his ways.  There will always be evil, dangerous people.  But they are far outnumbered by the good people, as evidenced by our continued existence on the planet.  

The opossums would get the place back if mankind was as murderous at heart as some Christians in this thread suggest.

People get really upset when you describe their religion as mythology or folklore.


If Jesus was a real person and some kind of supernatural being then might he not also have been Horus?

Meh.  Odin did it better.



The Christians ejected all the interesting bits of their religion out of the fold almost 1800 years ago.



The fact that they've managed to hold on anyway is almost proof that God does exist.

Oh geez, atheists denying Jesus even existed...........that's a new one.

Could the atheists at least get a bit more imaginative for god's sake.

Did you even read to the bottom of that article? It is not talking about what you think it's talking about...

A point of common ancestry is absolutely not the same as the first two human beings. The male and female points of common ancestry might not even have lived at the same time...

 

You need to adjust your sarcasm meter.

Well, I'd say a couple different reasons.  For one, if miracles were commonplace skeptics would treat them with alternative theories of why they occur.  Secondly, people don't necessarily believe miracles, real signs, even when they see them, many didn't believe in Jesus despite the miracles.  Miracles wouldn't necessarily produce heartfelt trust in God & Christ, God desires for us to believe in His promise to save us and that He is able to do it.  I'm just putting stuff out here cause I don't know, but He's done enough for countless people to believe and trust Him.  Third thing is, let's say you do see a miracle, God talks to you, physically effects things so you know it was a real experience, supernatural.  Ok, so now you tell me God spoke to you, did some sign, what is my response?  Prove it, if He showed you a sign why not me, right?  So even the next person can be a skeptic.  Fourth, I know that God still does miraculous things, demon exorcisms still occur, and I've read things Christians have witnessed.  So you don't have to believe it, but I'd say God is doing miraculous things.

Fifth, I'd say because all Creation is witness to Him, ourselves, your very body and mind are made in the image of God, what may be known of Him is in you.  Philosophical Naturalist/Materialist theories attack the idea we are created, distancing us from recognizing a powerful proof of the Creator.  Look at your phone or computer and ask yourself if it is pretty good evidence someone made it, yeah of course.  Sixth, I would argue for prophecy as an ongoing testimony, since it is miraculous, it stands as a matter of history, the Daniel prophecy, and Isaiah 53 about Jesus stand as strong witness to supernatural prediction having occurred.  So lastly, seventh, I'd say although the evidence is there but man is naturally blinded by sin.  God uses the Gospel and His Spirit to bring men to believe.  Changed lives are among modern day miracles as people come to Christ.  Why does someone hear about Jesus for decades and yet remain an atheist or turn to Islam, or Wicca or any religion etc., then suddenly, like opened eyes, they hear the Gospel one day in a whole new way, they become different people - that is God at work.  I experienced it myself by going from lukewarm Christian, to anarchic nihilist, to now my life revolves around Jesus.

 

Egocentrism?  You probably need to look it up.  I admit it sounds cool, but you're using it wrong.  

As to the rest of your comment, I disagree.  An atheist does not believe in any higher "power", and there are many moral atheist.  

Almost all of you didn't even read the article.

There are relatively "moral" atheists depending on how morality is defined, generally "good" people, yeah sure.  And that is great, I appreciate good neighbors.  But moral atheists are moral in spite of what they believe.  Atheism is that we are space dust, cosmic space dust and that space dust has a tendency to make people.  Our feelings and decisions are just chemical reactions of space-dust though.  Even in debating now it's just chemicals, so murder or not-murderer are just chemical reactions.  Our response to such "moral" things would be just chemical reactions.  This come from (some) Evolutionists, consistent Evolutionists, thankfully they don't live that way.  Stories about Natural Selection/Differential Reproduction and morality are just that, stories, not based on anything real.  Those stories are made up for any human trait and even Evolutionists reject them.  They can be made up to describe anything. Personally, I know that my personal knowledge and moral beliefs are not passed on to my sperm cells.  So if new morals can't be passed on from my brain to the genes in my sperm old ones couldn't either, therefore, our morality must have been placed within us from the start.

 

The only way for Christianity to flood the world the way it did in such a short time was for many people to spread the good word. Many of these people actually knew Jesus and decided to devote their entire lives to spreading the word, never having a home, moving from place to place to escape the threat of death. I've never seen anything worldly have such have a profound motivation on man. This was a belief that they never recanted.

What does it matter?

Word up!

Couldn't that also apply to Islam?



 

Stop trollin. It is as if you live for these threads.

 

well put.

I should have elaborated more on that, but if you read the first 2 sentences it is easy to understand where I was going with it.


From what I have gathered from Islam is that we hear about those motivated by worldly things. Sex, revenge .etc. It appeals to the most basic primal sides of humanity. This of course is contrast to our Christian beliefs, which is why it gets so much attention.


The message of Christ is an unselfish one. The apostles had no single worldly reason to be so motivated. Muslims have many worldly reasons.





 

Pointing out facts is not trolling.



And you don't live for these threads? Without them, how would you get your daily dose of persecution to feed your complex?



 

Not from what I understand.  Dying for a cause gets you rewards in heaven, thus people with shitty lives in this world are willing to blow themselves up for "the sake of Allah" in order to get rewards in heaven.



Getting rewards in the afterlife is pretty much the mainstay of Christianity, so i wouldn't say there was no reason for apostles to be motivated. The belief that they are going to heaven/not going to hell is a pretty big motivator for people that actually believe it.



 

I guess what I was trying to say was that there was no single worldly thing to motivate them. Muslim belief uses almost all worldly desires to motivate their followers. The stark contrast is why we are show shocked by the things they will do.