The C&R forum is a bit slow and so are forums on other sites, so I think I'll ask this in GD:

I've been wondering exactly how the open rear sight (100m) is meant to be used for rapid shooting or other conditions where precision is not necessarily possible (such as mounted use, use from a vehicle, low light conditions, etc.). The Spanish manuals don't seem to cover this; they only describe how to use the sight for precise shooting using the v-notch. I've seen pictures posted from an HK manual of some sort which show the "globe" resting on a v-notch which differs somewhat from that on the CETME or FR-8; I've also heard a description whereby one is supposed to use the "globe" like a front sight post and align the top of it with the top of the large notch in the rear sight, as well as a couple of other descriptions. I've modified pictures from a Spanish manual and I'd like to know whether either of the following pictures represent how the rear sight is meant to be used in this regard.

I've been trying to make a sort of manual for the FR-8 drawing as much as possible from my own translations of and images from various relevant Spanish manuals and this is one area where I'm not sure what to put in due to the absence of the topic in any of the manuals, which include one for the FR-8, a couple for the CETME, one for the Instalaza rifle grenades, and a more general one for the Spanish Marines that covers CETME marksmanship, among other topics. Up until now my only issues have been translating some of the technical terms.



I'm also curious as to whether anyone has tried using the sling as a shooting aid (the proper way, not the hasty sling) with one of these rifles. I'm curious as to whether or not the tension on the barrel is sufficient to change the point of impact, considering how the sling is attached in front. I translated more of one of the CETME manuals today and it states the intent for the soldier to use the sling as a shooting aid in any of the field positions if he has the time to sling up and describes how to do this. Given that the CETME sling is attached in the same manner, I'd imagine any effects on POI would be the same between the two rifles.

Also, since this topic is up, has anyone with the CETME Model B assault bipod or the later TRC bipod (the clamp-on type) tried using them on an FR-8?  Both should fit if the cleaning kit tube is removed.  If anyone has them I'd love to see pictures of them attached to an FR-8.

Count me as interested.  I have an FR8 and have no clue how it is supposed to work...I just make it work.

What are you interested in learning?  While I do want to know the above things, I have a lot of information on other parts of the rifles, some translated into English, some still in Spanish, and also pictures, diagrams, etc.  I also know some of the history behind them.

btt

I didnt follow the scout concecpt with my scope, but I did keep another one in its original config.

On other sights which are somewhat similar (like a western buckhorn sight), I set them up close to the sight picture on the right except even finer - the bullet goes right on top of the blade.  In the picture as it is presented you would hit the target in the knee.

But I think either way works.  As long as you remember which.

One more bump for tonight.

btt

Not sure what range the one I have is set for.  I know its not 100 yards.  

You probably need to zero it.  This is done via adjusting the front sight and using the 200m aperture (I believe a 25m zeroing target was used by the armorers with that setting).  There is a spanner wrench designed to fit through the hole in the front sight hood that allows one to rotate the front sight post up or down (which also requires backing out the front sight set screw, which in turn requires the application of a penetrating oil to loosen it; the threads are fine, and trying to force it will cause damage).  The post is eccentric and thus also moves left or right as it goes up or down.  You adjust for elevation first and then for windage.  IIRC, the maximum difference in elevation at 200m after adjusting for windage is around a half inch up or down.

For precise shooting, the open sight should be aligned as follows:

The only time I saw one, it cost almost what I paid for the rifle.  

APEX has them for around $15.  $15-$20 seems to be what I typically see them go for.  I think a repro was made for a time in the same price range.

I know the compensator for the CETME Model B (which was still oriented somewhat around trying to have controullable full-auto fire with the 7.62 CETME round, hence the compensator) can work with the FR-8; I know someone who has his set up that way.  If it works on the CETME, especially the Model C, it should work on the FR-8.  I'm not sure about HK stuff, though.

And yeah, I agree milspec ammo should be used, ball ammo from Santa Barbara especially, since that's what would have been used for zeroing these rifles.

Regarding stripping the threads, what I'd be most concerned about is damaging the ones on the triple frame.  The FR7/8 triple frame is extremely hard to come by, unlike the front sight post or the set screw, which are still being sold by some major vendors.

An interesting thing I saw in the manuals is that ballistic data is provided for the 7.62 CETME round out of the FR-8 and not just data for the 7.62 NATO round (but it's clear from the manual that the latter is the primary cartridge meant to be used in these carbines, FR-7 included).

I have an AAC 7.62 suppressor. The suppressor threads onto a flash suppressor made by AAC. They make one for HK. I bought one for my FR8 and it threaded right on.

Beautiful.

Question for the other guys with the FR-8:

Does the magazine work correctly for you?  

I have a heck of time having rounds feed from the mag without bullet nose diving back into the mag.  The rear of the cartridge comes up fine, but as soon as the bolt is moved forward, the bullet nose dives.  Basically, I have to either load one round at a time, or use my off hand to "guide" the round into the chamber.  

And yes, I replaced the magazine spring with a new Wolff spring.  It just seems the magazine was designed for the longer 8mm round and doesn't like the shorter 7.62 Nato round.

Interesting, I never ever thought I would see FR-8 and rapid shooting in one sentence.  

I've never had that problem with any FR-8 I've used.  Is the spacer block still attached to the front wall of the magazine?  I can't see it coming off, but you never know for sure.  Seems like an odd problem to have.

Meant more in the context of snap-shooting, although the few that were imported with bent bolt knobs (some were made with bent bolts and some were bent by unit armourers post-conversion) can be worked very rapidly from the shoulder.  I've always found the straight handles awkward to use from the shoulder.

Sight the 200m peep sight in. Then rotate to the v notch and see which of your theories puts a bullet on target.

I intend to try it next time I'm at a place where I can shoot on flat terrain to 200 yards and don't need to borrow an FR-8.  I'm in the process of acquiring one.  I'm mainly interested right no because of the manual I'm working on as a project.

I've thought of doing that as well.  I shoot left handed, and the reach over to the bolt rakes my wrist against that damn rear sight every time.

Has anyone tried using their sling as a shooting aid with one of these rifles or tried to use one of the CETME bipods with one?

Even right-handed users can have some issues.  Given how handy these carbines are otherwise, I can't fault someone for bending the bolt handle on one of these, so long as they do it in the same style as can be found on the carbines that were imported with bent bolts (not including the handful bent for use with scopes that were imported).  Normally, I would be opposed to modifying a C&R weapon but not in that particular instance.  Bolt manipulation with a straight bolt is generally awkward without shifting the rifle's position or removing it from the shoulder altogether, the necessity of which is itself undesirable.

Spacer block?  What spacer block?  No block, no signs of a block or modified mag follower.  

I think I see the issue.    Wonder what happened with my FR-8?

I wonder if maybe a previous owner replaced the modified magazine with an unmodified Mauser magazine, especially since the follower is stated to be unmodified.

I bought it at Big 5, a large sporting goods chain store.  They don't sell "used" rifles, only "imports" or new.  I gave up this rifle a long time ago, mainly due to this issue.  Bought it cheap around  2000.  It is about the roughest FR-8 I've seen and needed work from the get go.

Interesting.  Can you post some pictures of the magazine?  I'm curious to see it.  I could also see an armourer screwing up on a repair and using a magazine for a 7.92mm Mauser instead of one for the FR-8.  It's hard for me to see the spacer block just coming off, and the follower should be shortened if it's the correct type.  Definitely an odd problem.

I got mine as a gun show find. I still haven't got the time on it to figure out the sights. I shot some gun show reloads to see how it shot. I think I need to use some Mil surp instead.
Mine is sans sling, and I never knew they had a bi-pod available. Spacer is in place.

So the sights. From the open position, it will turn one click right. Two clicks left.  So what are they supposed to be, range wise? Start with the one click left, then first click right, after open sight, then last click. What is the open sight range?

This is what the range settings are.  Occasionally, some FR-8s can be found to have the disc fitted in reverse and thus the rotations are the opposite of what's in the diagram.  The 100m open sight has two methods of use, one for precise shooting and another for imprecise shooting (ascertaining the proper method of usage for the latter is why I started this thread).  The apertures are all meant for precise shooting at their respective ranges, and the 200m aperture is the one used for zeroing.

As for the bipods, they are as follows:



Assault bipod that originally came out with the CETME Model B and was also used with the CETME Model C in some cases.



TRC Bipod which came out in the 1970s for use with either model, but principally with the CETME Model C, which in its stock form cannot use the assault bipod (the handguards need to be replaced with those of the Model B).  TRC is a Spanish acronym that stands for telescopic legs, ball-and-socket joint coupling system, and wirecutting function.

The FR-8 was not used in conjunction with the bipods in service, but due to the commonality of parts with the CETME it can use them.  They key is the following part:



This is the barrel sleeve to which the triple frame attaches so as to be mounted to the barrel.  The rear cylindrical portion (right hand side of the diagram) has a lip on either side with the centre forming a wide groove into which the assault bipod fits as shown in the earlier drawing.  Similar principle to how the FAL bipod attaches to the barrel.  The groove is the swiveling point and also keeps it in place.  Because the cleaning kit tube is on the bottom (unlike on the CETME), it interferes and must be removed.  I'm not sure if the bayonet lug itself has to be removed as well.  The TRC bipod is designed to clamp onto the front portion of the sleeve, which serves as a secondary rifle grenade spigot and also serves as a mounting point for the rifle grenade retaining spring.  The grooves mate up with those on the inside of the bipod.  Again, because of the different arrangement, both the cleaning kit tube and the bayonet lug have to be removed to use this bipod.

btt

Sunday bump

I have the opportunity to get one from a guy locally. He is asking $300. It is in really nice shape. Is $300 a good deal?

Yes, especially if it is in such good condition.  They easily go for $400 or more.  The lowest I've seen one in great condition go for in the last few months is $275, but that was definitely exceptional.

Sounds like a decent deal

M-14 and Springfield chargers definitely won't work.  Only those for Mauser 98s work.  All of the Turkish chargers I've tried have fit rather tightly.  The ones that have worked the best for me are the bright and shiny white metal ones (I think they may be nickel-plated), of which I have a few.  They fit perfectly and charging with them is always a smooth operation.  I don't know who made them, but I do know the Spanish chargers made for 98 actions have a similar appearance, as do the Yugoslavian and some of the German ones.  I haven't been able to try any other kinds of 98 chargers besides the Turk ones and the nickel-plated ones that I have.

IMO, recoil's not bad on these at all.  I would recommend trying it out first before getting a recoil pad.  A front sight tool and a cleaning kit wouldn't be bad accessories to get.  Neither is expensive.  Once I receive my FR-8 I intend to eventually also get the CETME action cover and muzzle cap for it as accessories, and maybe even one of the TRC bipods (those aren't cheap, though).

I'd love to find Spanish training grenades and the clamp-on quadrant sight (there are also disposable quadrant and ladder sights), but I'm not sure there are any in the U.S.

One thing I'd be interested in trying is shooting 7.62 CETME ammo through an FR-8.  Supposedly the difference in recoil is substantial, despite similar chamber pressures (the cartridge shoots a 112gr. bullet longer than and with a larger radius of ogive than the standard bullet to lower velocities).  Not sure how well the cartridge mates up to the sights if zeroed for ball ammo, as these are.

Interesting thread.  I have never shot my FR8.  I guess that I will drag it out after the deer season nimrods get off the local ranges.

I may pick it up tomorrow. I am not recoil sensitive and should be fine without a recoil pad. I do have some santa barbara 7.62 in the gun room. I will post tomorrow if I get it.

Santa Barbara would be the best stuff to use to verify that it is correctly zeroed.

Monday evening bump.

I got it!
Looks pretty good.





I paid $250 and it came with the bayonet.
He also has a 6.5 Mauser I should have grabbed for another $100.
Sorry for the crappy pics.- Art

Nice.  $250 is a great deal these days (you used to be able to get them at Big 5 for half that price during the first few years after relatively large numbers were imported, albeit sans bayonet).  I'm paying $325 for mine, not including shipping and various State and dealer fees.  It's only coming with the sling, though.  Hopefully yours shoots well, too.

We'll see how it shoots tomorrow. The bore looks good. I was playing with it a while ago and realized I grabbed the wrong bayo today. I think I got the one for the Carl Gustoff Mauser instead. I will have to hit him up next week. Where can I find a sling for this thing?

Sarco, Liberty Tree Collectors, and some of the other major parts and accessories dealers (they'll also have other accessories, such as action covers, muzzle caps, cleaning kits for the tube, the CETME 3-piece cleaning rod, the front sight adjustment tool, etc.).  Places like Gunbroker and ebay will often have a bunch.  Generally they can vary from $5-$15 and are usually somewhere in the middle of that range.  Conditions can vary from horrid to NOS.  Any CETME-type or HK type sling should work, alternatively, and Liberty Tree Collectors and a couple of other sites sell the hooks for the slings separately, so you can use them on the sling of your choice and adapt it to the FR-8.

Depending on whether my questions regarding sling use (as a shooting aid) are answered in this thread, I've thought about trying Andy Langlois' "Rhodesian sling" with it using one of the HK hooks.