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Posted: 12/3/2014 11:08:05 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The vise is for barrel installation/removal. The reaction rod is for muzzle device installation/removal. Yep. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 11:10:22 AM EDT
[#2]
Exactly!
I will bet he has done thousands or tens of thousands of these, and he has more experience with this than every other poster in this thread combined. That is one of th problems with the internet- we all claim to be experts, and drown out the voice on the one person who truly is one. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 11:11:08 AM EDT
[#3]
I use the reaction rod at work. I actually ordered 5 of them to teach our AR build class with and the students love them.
Plus Geissele is local so it gave me an excuse to go say hello. 
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Posted: 12/3/2014 11:12:25 AM EDT
[#4]
I did the research and decided to use a reaction rod. Worked fine on the first barrel, shear off a barrel pin on the second.
I now use it for muzzle brakes only - and a vice to mount the barrel. --- fwiw I used the correctly spec'ed grease and was around 40lbs of torque when the pin sheared. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 11:13:18 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The vise is for barrel installation/removal. The reaction rod is for muzzle device installation/removal. what that guy said.. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 11:15:54 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryYou might need a second upper receiver. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 11:19:45 AM EDT
[#7]
I have always used a barrel vice, or Oak V blocks in the vice jaws, for brake installs.
The chance of buggering things is zero. Receiver blocks keep the barrel index pin floating, when tightening the barrel nut. I have torn down more than a couple Bubba builds, and many "Lesser" factory AR's, that the index pin had swaged into the upper notch. Granted, some doofus had to have been reefing on the things with the barrel in a vice, and buggered threads involved, but some take a little more reffing than others. Why fight it. The clamshell wins IMO. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 11:20:45 AM EDT
[#8]
FWIW I use the vice method.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 11:36:32 AM EDT
[#9]
I have both a clam shell and a Geissele reaction rod. Recently I assembled an upper using a VLTOR upper and a LMT A2 10 inch barrel. The VLTOR upper doesn't fit in the clam shell, so I contacted VLTOR and asked them what they recommend. VLTOR said they recommend the reaction rod to assemble. I used the reaction rod and it torqued to about 32 ft. lbs to line up the gas tube with the barrel nut. IMO 32 ft. lbs is too little torque, so I continued to the next barrel nut notch. After loosening and tightening the nut several times with plenty of grease on the threads, I ended up at 88lbs to line up the notch with the gas tube. If my index pin didn't shear off at 88lbs, I don't see how a index pin could shear off at 40 ft. lbs unless the index pin is crap quality.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 11:41:54 AM EDT
[#10]
I've never used the RR but have used the vice clamp many times. Vice clamp works well.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 11:48:57 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you're installing one of those key mod or other style hand guards, use the vise. You start torquing on that nut using a reaction, it's possible you could spin the receiver, shearing the bbl ext pin.  Now I know what NOT to do... |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 11:56:07 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Right, i know that. Ive only used clam shell blocks though, and they always end up, somehow, bending those "lugs". I can tell because before i do any torquing, they're tight fits into my lowers. After, theyre sloppy and loose by a good 1-2mm. Basically, plastic clam shell blocks fucking suck. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ive always managed to bend the lugs slightly on uppers using vice blocks. Tried two so far, different brands. Only torquing to 35-40lbs.  What lugs? Holes where the takedown pins go on the upper. That style of vise block is not to be used for barrel installs because it places all the load on the lugs and bends or breaks them. Use the clamshell style that clamps over the entire upper to do barrel installs. The lug type block is really only usefull for holding the upper still while installing the ejection port door and maybe forward assist or installing optics. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Right, i know that. Ive only used clam shell blocks though, and they always end up, somehow, bending those "lugs". I can tell because before i do any torquing, they're tight fits into my lowers. After, theyre sloppy and loose by a good 1-2mm. Basically, plastic clam shell blocks fucking suck. Maybe a poorly fitting clamshell? I'd contact the manufacturer and ask them what possibly could be causing the lugs to bend. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 11:57:15 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which one's less expensive? «tc2k11» 99¢ DIY receiver blocks 
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:03:19 PM EDT
[#14]
If you slip a walmart sack or something similar over the receiver, it mostly eliminates the slight shine marks you may get on the upper's finish. Just something I always do, which is relevant to the topic. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:05:21 PM EDT
[#15]
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:09:11 PM EDT
[#16]
My old roommate and I used to put the receiver on the last stair and stand on it while the other person torqued the barrel nut on. Built like 4 or 5 uppers that way before getting a vise
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:11:59 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I used receiver blocks for my last two builds. Seemed to work out OK. Barrel nuts seem to like between 30 and 40ft lbs or torque. That's really not that much, just a decent grunts worth. If you have a vice the receiver blocks should be fine. Just my two cents. Ditto |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:13:12 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My old roommate and I used to put the receiver on the last stair and stand on it while the other person torqued the barrel nut on. Built like 4 or 5 uppers that way before getting a vise Whatever works. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:15:59 PM EDT
[#19]
take a moment to do a visual check inside the barrel nut and the barrel extension where the two squeeze up against each other during assembly. it they are nice and smooth lube them up and get it on.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:17:09 PM EDT
[#20]
The rod works just fine for the installation of barrels and muzzle devices. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:19:46 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The rod works just fine for the installation of barrels and muzzle devices. 
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:20:24 PM EDT
[#22]
I've always used a vise and I've never had any issues. YMMV |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:34:36 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please go on. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The vice is for barrel installation/removal. The reaction rod is for muzzle device installation/removal. Please go on. Also for muzzle device installation, Barrel vice blocks.  Also, much cheaper then reaction rods. For the home builder, you really don't need a whole lot of specialized tools. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:39:56 PM EDT
[#24]
Anyone using the BEV block for barrel installs? Looks like it would work well, if a little pricey.  |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:45:26 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyone using the BEV block for barrel installs? Looks like it would work well, if a little pricey. http://cdn.magpul.com/images/uploads/268_1409_large.jpg Looks like it well have the same issue as the reaction rod |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 12:48:16 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks like it well have the same issue as the reaction rod Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Anyone using the BEV block for barrel installs? Looks like it would work well, if a little pricey. http://cdn.magpul.com/images/uploads/268_1409_large.jpg Looks like it well have the same issue as the reaction rod The lower part and pin should keep the receiver from twisting though, right? I need to check out a review of one. I'll just keep using a clamshell, but that block did look interesting, as does that plastixrevolution one posted earlier. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:14:05 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The rod works just fine for the installation of barrels and muzzle devices. From Geissele's website pertaining to the "Reaction Rod": Description: The removal and installation of barrels, flash hiders, gas blocks and hand guards is made much easier and simpler. The Reaction Rod is designed to be gripped in a bench vise so that the rod is either horizontal or vertical.  ETA: I just read the post linked on page one and understand now. Guess I got lucky with my last build.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:20:27 PM EDT
[#28]
Personally I use wood blocks; by the way, nice vise.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 1:30:43 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You might need a second upper receiver. Quote HistoryQuoted:
You might need a second upper receiver. This. Don't use one of these for installing a barrel nut. You're lucky if you just break your block. If you're unlucky, your destroy your upper receiver. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 2:05:12 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The lower part and pin should keep the receiver from twisting though, right? I need to check out a review of one. I'll just keep using a clamshell, but that block did look interesting, as does that plastixrevolution one posted earlier. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Anyone using the BEV block for barrel installs? Looks like it would work well, if a little pricey. http://cdn.magpul.com/images/uploads/268_1409_large.jpg Looks like it well have the same issue as the reaction rod The lower part and pin should keep the receiver from twisting though, right? I need to check out a review of one. I'll just keep using a clamshell, but that block did look interesting, as does that plastixrevolution one posted earlier. just put together an upper with it. Worked pretty well. Uses their own front takedown pin to keep the lug mated to the barrel. Haven't shot it yet... so
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Posted: 12/3/2014 2:07:20 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The vise is for barrel installation/removal. The reaction rod is for muzzle device installation/removal. I fucked up a barrel and upper receiver trying to take apart an assembled upper use the reaction rod. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 3:17:30 PM EDT
[#32]
Here's the one I use from Accuracy Speaks when assembling thick walled uppers.
You need to be careful with it though on std forged ones, as it has so much clamping strength you can spring the upper sides, especially just under the ejection port. Very good tool though, I've been using this for over 10 years 
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Posted: 12/3/2014 4:15:34 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whatever works. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My old roommate and I used to put the receiver on the last stair and stand on it while the other person torqued the barrel nut on. Built like 4 or 5 uppers that way before getting a vise Whatever works. That reminds me of torquing some very large nuts. They exceeded my tq wrench capacity by a large amount. I calculated the torque based on my weight & where I needed to stand on the cheater bar. I walked from the center of the bar to the calculated spot and achieved desired torque when my weight arrived at that spot on the moment arm. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 4:25:02 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That reminds me of torquing some very large nuts. They exceeded my tq wrench capacity by a large amount. I calculated the torque based on my weight & where I needed to stand on the cheater bar. I walked from the center of the bar to the calculated spot and achieved desired torque when my weight arrived at that spot on the moment arm.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
My old roommate and I used to put the receiver on the last stair and stand on it while the other person torqued the barrel nut on. Built like 4 or 5 uppers that way before getting a vise Whatever works. That reminds me of torquing some very large nuts. They exceeded my tq wrench capacity by a large amount. I calculated the torque based on my weight & where I needed to stand on the cheater bar. I walked from the center of the bar to the calculated spot and achieved desired torque when my weight arrived at that spot on the moment arm.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile wow kinda guy that likes to turn wrenchs over a few 12 packs with the guys?
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Posted: 12/3/2014 4:26:30 PM EDT
[#35]
Call me crazy, but last time I put a barrel in an upper I just used a couple of c-clamps on the side of a wooden table. no issues. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 5:05:14 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
wow kinda guy that likes to turn wrenchs over a few 12 packs with the guys? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My old roommate and I used to put the receiver on the last stair and stand on it while the other person torqued the barrel nut on. Built like 4 or 5 uppers that way before getting a vise Whatever works. That reminds me of torquing some very large nuts. They exceeded my tq wrench capacity by a large amount. I calculated the torque based on my weight & where I needed to stand on the cheater bar. I walked from the center of the bar to the calculated spot and achieved desired torque when my weight arrived at that spot on the moment arm.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile wow kinda guy that likes to turn wrenchs over a few 12 packs with the guys? I prefer to say that it was practically applying the physics they taught me in book learnin' college boy school. 
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Posted: 12/3/2014 5:15:27 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Anyone using the BEV block for barrel installs? Looks like it would work well, if a little pricey. http://cdn.magpul.com/images/uploads/268_1409_large.jpg Wish they'd have put a torque bar on top of that one to emulate the "MOAF" that I linked to. Should have been easy with the design of that device vs the rod type ones. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 5:25:47 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. Don't use one of these for installing a barrel nut. You're lucky if you just break your block. If you're unlucky, your destroy your upper receiver. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You might need a second upper receiver. This. Don't use one of these for installing a barrel nut. You're lucky if you just break your block. If you're unlucky, your destroy your upper receiver. I must be doing it wrong, then, because I've replaced several barrels for folks, built several uppers for myself and the kids, used it when installing ff tubes and muzzle devices, and I've never had an issue with my dpms block. I've probably had the thing for 7 or 8 years now. Are you guys who have broken something with these used the proper barrel nut lube when installing the barrel nut? (I've still got probably 1/2 of the Bushmaster assembly lube bottle I bought almost a decade ago because you use so little on a barrel) I've had to torque a couple barrel nuts REALLY tight while using the block and never had an issue. It might break tomorrow, but it's worked well until now anyway. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 6:11:35 PM EDT
[#39]
I use soft plastic blocks in a vice, clamped to the barrel, for flash hiders. I've had no issues getting anything timed right using crush washers. I paid less than $10 at Lowes and there is a groove in it that works fine with barrels. For barrel nuts, a plain old receiver clamp lined with tape (to prevent any marks) has worked flawlessly about 4 times so far.
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Posted: 12/3/2014 7:47:43 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have both a clam shell and a Geissele reaction rod. Recently I assembled an upper using a VLTOR upper and a LMT A2 10 inch barrel. The VLTOR upper doesn't fit in the clam shell, so I contacted VLTOR and asked them what they recommend. VLTOR said they recommend the reaction rod to assemble. I used the reaction rod and it torqued to about 32 ft. lbs to line up the gas tube with the barrel nut. IMO 32 ft. lbs is too little torque, so I continued to the next barrel nut notch. After loosening and tightening the nut several times with plenty of grease on the threads, I ended up at 88lbs to line up the notch with the gas tube. If my index pin didn't shear off at 88lbs, I don't see how a index pin could shear off at 40 ft. lbs unless the index pin is crap quality. This is our experience: If an index pin shears - its a cheap pin or pin installation problem (big hole, pin at an angle, misdrilled hole). We use the Reaction Rod on all our builds and all our torque testing of barrel nuts. We have tried to torque to failure the Geissele barrel nuts and have gone to 150 ft*lbs. This is me hanging on a cheater bar like a monkey and two guys sitting on the bench so it doesn't flip over. No shearing of pins. And we have done this lots of times. I believe that more force is put into the front torque surface of the barrel extension than the threads, therefore the Reaction Rod put LESS torque on the index pin. THAT BEING SAID - I hear everyone and have heard everyone who disagrees and we have developed a super duper Reaction Rod that puts all these issues to rest. If you so desire you can install a barrel to an upper with no index pin and it will install and stay lined up perfectly. And you can still use the indexing feature of the Reaction Rod to hold your upper so you can work on sights, gas blocks, muzzle devices, etc. I have these made, just need to write instructions because the use of this Super Reaction Rod is not brainless. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 7:49:16 PM EDT
[#41]
Awesome!
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Posted: 12/3/2014 7:53:44 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also for muzzle device installation, Barrel vice blocks. <a href="http://s137.photobucket.com/user/machinegun74/media/IMG_0047.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q217/machinegun74/IMG_0047.jpg</a> Also, much cheaper then reaction rods. For the home builder, you really don't need a whole lot of specialized tools. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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The vice is for barrel installation/removal. The reaction rod is for muzzle device installation/removal. Please go on. <a href="http://s137.photobucket.com/user/machinegun74/media/IMG_0047.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q217/machinegun74/IMG_0047.jpg</a> Also, much cheaper then reaction rods. For the home builder, you really don't need a whole lot of specialized tools. Yep, barrel vice blocks are the way to go. Just like in the manual. 
I made mine from a block of solid PVC I had laying around. I just bored a hole in the block and then split it with a band-saw. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 7:54:55 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is our experience: If an index pin shears - its a cheap pin or pin installation problem (big hole, pin at an angle, misdrilled hole). We use the Reaction Rod on all our builds and all our torque testing of barrel nuts. We have tried to torque to failure the Geissele barrel nuts and have gone to 150 ft*lbs. This is me hanging on a cheater bar like a monkey and two guys sitting on the bench so it doesn't flip over. No shearing of pins. And we have done this lots of times. I believe that more force is put into the front torque surface of the barrel extension than the threads, therefore the Reaction Rod put LESS torque on the index pin. THAT BEING SAID - I hear everyone and have heard everyone who disagrees and we have developed a super duper Reaction Rod that puts all these issues to rest. If you so desire you can install a barrel to an upper with no index pin and it will install and stay lined up perfectly. And you can still use the indexing feature of the Reaction Rod to hold your upper so you can work on sights, gas blocks, muzzle devices, etc. I have these made, just need to write instructions because the use of this Super Reaction Rod is not brainless. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have both a clam shell and a Geissele reaction rod. Recently I assembled an upper using a VLTOR upper and a LMT A2 10 inch barrel. The VLTOR upper doesn't fit in the clam shell, so I contacted VLTOR and asked them what they recommend. VLTOR said they recommend the reaction rod to assemble. I used the reaction rod and it torqued to about 32 ft. lbs to line up the gas tube with the barrel nut. IMO 32 ft. lbs is too little torque, so I continued to the next barrel nut notch. After loosening and tightening the nut several times with plenty of grease on the threads, I ended up at 88lbs to line up the notch with the gas tube. If my index pin didn't shear off at 88lbs, I don't see how a index pin could shear off at 40 ft. lbs unless the index pin is crap quality. This is our experience: If an index pin shears - its a cheap pin or pin installation problem (big hole, pin at an angle, misdrilled hole). We use the Reaction Rod on all our builds and all our torque testing of barrel nuts. We have tried to torque to failure the Geissele barrel nuts and have gone to 150 ft*lbs. This is me hanging on a cheater bar like a monkey and two guys sitting on the bench so it doesn't flip over. No shearing of pins. And we have done this lots of times. I believe that more force is put into the front torque surface of the barrel extension than the threads, therefore the Reaction Rod put LESS torque on the index pin. THAT BEING SAID - I hear everyone and have heard everyone who disagrees and we have developed a super duper Reaction Rod that puts all these issues to rest. If you so desire you can install a barrel to an upper with no index pin and it will install and stay lined up perfectly. And you can still use the indexing feature of the Reaction Rod to hold your upper so you can work on sights, gas blocks, muzzle devices, etc. I have these made, just need to write instructions because the use of this Super Reaction Rod is not brainless. Will you take trade ins for the old style rod? I used it one time, never used it again. Someone linked to my problem on the first page. Trashed the upper and couldn't fix the brand new barrel. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 7:55:49 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The vice is for barrel installation/removal. The reaction rod is for muzzle device installation/removal. Please go on. I'll help. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/633558_.html http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/661208_Just_broke_an_indexing_pin.html Mine is the first link. |
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Posted: 12/3/2014 7:57:34 PM EDT
[#45]
rod looks like you could bend something. been using a vice myself for years
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Posted: 12/3/2014 7:58:50 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep, barrel vice blocks are the way to go. Just like in the manual. http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss208/BigRix/Screenshot2013-04-16at51210PM_zps3cde322f.png I made mine from a block of solid PVC I had laying around. I just bored a hole in the block and then split it with a band-saw. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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The vice is for barrel installation/removal. The reaction rod is for muzzle device installation/removal. Please go on. <a href="http://s137.photobucket.com/user/machinegun74/media/IMG_0047.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q217/machinegun74/IMG_0047.jpg</a> Also, much cheaper then reaction rods. For the home builder, you really don't need a whole lot of specialized tools. Yep, barrel vice blocks are the way to go. Just like in the manual. http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss208/BigRix/Screenshot2013-04-16at51210PM_zps3cde322f.png I made mine from a block of solid PVC I had laying around. I just bored a hole in the block and then split it with a band-saw. Barrel vise blocks still allow force into the receiver, but are better than clamps. The big problem I have with them is that when you get a hard to remove barrel nut the barrel will sometimes spin in the blocks and tear the finish all up. And forget about the aluminum ones....permanently imbedded aluminum in your barrel. For blocks PVC or similar material is the way to go like you made yours from. |
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Posted: 12/20/2014 6:43:48 PM EDT
[#47]
Can't wait to see this new tool!
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Posted: 12/20/2014 6:47:45 PM EDT
[#48]
Número uno is the method I use
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Posted: 12/20/2014 6:56:58 PM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 12/20/2014 6:59:23 PM EDT
[#50]
I use the clamshell holder.
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