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Posted: 10/27/2014 9:34:24 AM EDT
[#1]
Love my Kriegoff K80 and my Beretta Silver Perdiz , Browning BSS 20ga is a fine gun also.
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Posted: 10/27/2014 9:36:26 AM EDT
[#2]
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Sorry, no fancy engraving = not worth $30k Quote HistoryQuoted:
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But... over/unders can be tacticool too... http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/img/model-name/Browning-Cynergy-Desert-Tan-013715-1667l.jpg Sorry, no fancy engraving = not worth $30k $1599.99 MSRP So adjust about $300 down in real world |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 9:46:03 AM EDT
[#3]
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But... over/unders can be tacticool too... http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/img/model-name/Browning-Cynergy-Desert-Tan-013715-1667l.jpg Am I dumb for wanting this? ETA: I've been considering getting into trap/skeet and shooting birds and shit. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 9:47:16 AM EDT
[#4]
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I shot a round of sporting clays once that made my day. Most of us were shooting decent CZ O/Us (they were a sponsor). But an older lawyer -- late 60s -- outshot everyone with an old 870. Including the guys with $4000 Brownings! Proves nothing but experience. I used to shoot with a man that would absolutely clean clocks in a round of Annie Oakley by shooting from the hip. He was like another old man that shot a couple of perfect rounds of skeet at the old Winchester club one morning; someone commented on his great shooting, and he replied, "It got a lot easier after the first boxcar load of shells". There is a point of diminishing return of cost in the shootability of a shotgun, but I think the price starts at about $9k for a lightly used gun, before it has been fitted. After a point, it's not just the mechanics, but making them as pefect as possible and the value of the decorative aspect of the gun. Good hand checkering and engraving is expensive because it's worth the cost. My 525 is a great gun, and most days it's easy to shoot. But I've had a few morning outings when it felt like a log. The length of pull is much better after I lost 60 pounds, too, I shot it for a long time out of the box when it needed to be shortened about a quarter of an inch. Now it's perfect. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 9:53:21 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Am I dumb for wanting this? ETA: I've been considering getting into trap/skeet and shooting birds and shit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
But... over/unders can be tacticool too... http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/img/model-name/Browning-Cynergy-Desert-Tan-013715-1667l.jpg Am I dumb for wanting this? ETA: I've been considering getting into trap/skeet and shooting birds and shit. No, it's a great gun. I got to shoot one the other weekend, the full sporting configuration, and it was a pussycat. Excellent weight and balance, and the mechanism is really slick. The price is right too. It looks like browning is consolidating the cynergy. 2/3 of the variants dissappeared from the online catalog over the past week. The oddball colors of laminate wood don't sell and end up being very affordable. They did one in yellow when they first came out, and link too, and the market just looked at it and said "where is mah wood grain and huntin' dog engraving?". |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 9:57:56 AM EDT
[#6]
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... Personally, I think this thing looks awesome.......but the comments on tribe mainstream shotgun sports websites from avid shooters are very dismissive of it's appearance. 
I'll bet the comments center around the carved pistol grip and forearm, and the flat ambidextrous grip. Color laminated stocks are common, and that one doesn't begin to approach some painted guns for gaudiness. Those stocks are heavy, too, |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 10:05:11 AM EDT
[#7]
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If I'm not mistaken, most of the engraving on the guns you can buy at big box stores, or typical dealers is done machine or laser. So, it's not really something that should contribute to the cost so much. I prefer clean, unadorned receivers personally. I like the clean look of the red labels especially. Browning has a nice unadorned citori out now with a street price of under $1800. Nice blued receiver. No silly puppies or birdies. The cynergy someone posted above would be ideal except for the FDE "wood". It seems that browning and beretta encourage the implanted American idea that stupid scenes of birds fleeing for their lives are a required feature of American market shotguns. Even the Europeans have abandoned these gruesome, Silly scenes. I guess I can appreciate them when down by hand on higher end guns, but on the mass market stuff, blegch. 
Personally, I think this thing looks awesome.......but the comments on tribe mainstream shotgun sports websites from avid shooters are very dismissive of it's appearance. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Yks3G8kUWS4/VEHKoqMxDTI/AAAAAAAAKJI/JOchxiWj9nQ/s1600/Dsc_0285.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And that's the part that gets me... I could see how regulating anything with two barrels would require some serious craftsmanship using old world techniques, but with all the computerized capabilities in modern manufacturing, I can't see why a long term serviceable OU would need to cost thousands of dollars. Sure, the upfront investment would be heavy, but when word of what you're producing gets out, the demand will be there. I think the O/U market tends to support itself based on an informal hierarchy. That is evidenced in this thread. If people are willing to pay $3200 for a full sporting clays Citori, why would the market demand change? Browning and beretta operate as a duopoly with the majority of the mass market, and they both recognize without collusion that high prices must be supported, and are mutually beneficial. If market pressures dictated it, the quality could get there for a lot less money. But buyers still demand quality wood and silly aching engraving. Browning has done numerous "unconventional" cynergies, and they get overlooked at any price. The Turkish guns are getting better and better as the low end gets more competitive, so there is some possibilities there. Ultimately, I think if more younger people got into the sport, prices would be forced down. Not because we don't have the money. We do indeed have the money, and far less obligations than older buyers. But we tend to be better informed and have much more mobile decisions that would cause competition from a pricing perspective. We would also demand much more modular platforms. So the premium in extra barrels or barrel sets would be driven down as well. It would be interesting to see what an O/U would look like for someone brought up in a world of AR-15's almost exclusively. I imagine that a common receiver and fire control group would be the heart of such a system. My perspective, at least with shotguns, is as a beginner. I shot a couple rounds of trap as a teenager, but that was 10 years ago. After looking around the market for a little while, I just bought a cheap used Fausti from the Traditions line to get my feet wet. I'm guessing it's not a gun that I'll get tens of thousands of rounds through, but if I get to shooting like that, I'll probably upgrade anyways. But I've got to say, I'm a bit dissatisfied with the market, I'm probably not going to buy a new trap gun, and pricing is a big part of that. I'm not afraid to pay for quality, but there's a limit to what I'm willing to spend on any one gun. My S&W 17-2, for example, was significantly more expensive than a brand new Ruger SP-101, but the fit and finish and overall build quality makes it worth it to me. I could probably make similar comparisons with other guns, but I think you get the point. But any time I buy anything like that, I consider what I'm getting for the money. My S&W revolvers were worth it. My CZ bolt action rifles were worth it. But when I look at the $1500+ OUs, I almost immediately start wondering how much of that price tag is in that damn engraving. Engraving does nothing for me, and I don't give a damn about buying some kind of street cred with the old timey gentlemen's bunch. I want function and serviceability, and that's about it. As you suggest, I don't know that I'd expect Browning or Beretta to take that next step forward and ruin their cash cow. Maybe one of the two might to tap into a broader audience, but that would surprise me.I'm pretty sure another manufacturer would need to do that. Who? I don't know. I could maybe see Ruger doing it, but they've got to figure out where they're going with the Red Label. I've only seen one batch of the new ones go out, and there seems to be some shuffling. Remington could do it if they weren't being killed by a toxic corporate culture driven by accountants. FN/Winchester could do it, but they seem to be in an identity crisis. I'd like to think that something's got to give at some point. If I'm not mistaken, most of the engraving on the guns you can buy at big box stores, or typical dealers is done machine or laser. So, it's not really something that should contribute to the cost so much. I prefer clean, unadorned receivers personally. I like the clean look of the red labels especially. Browning has a nice unadorned citori out now with a street price of under $1800. Nice blued receiver. No silly puppies or birdies. The cynergy someone posted above would be ideal except for the FDE "wood". It seems that browning and beretta encourage the implanted American idea that stupid scenes of birds fleeing for their lives are a required feature of American market shotguns. Even the Europeans have abandoned these gruesome, Silly scenes. I guess I can appreciate them when down by hand on higher end guns, but on the mass market stuff, blegch.
Personally, I think this thing looks awesome.......but the comments on tribe mainstream shotgun sports websites from avid shooters are very dismissive of it's appearance. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Yks3G8kUWS4/VEHKoqMxDTI/AAAAAAAAKJI/JOchxiWj9nQ/s1600/Dsc_0285.jpg Like how it looks. Does anyone know how it handles/feels/shoots? |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 10:08:06 AM EDT
[#8]
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Take the same shooter. Have him shoot a $2,000 O/U and a nicely setup Benelli(semi). I sincerely doubt the results of his shooting will be significantly different. The only difference is with the Benelli (semi) he'll be able to lay down some lead if he chooses... So he could try to throw and shoot 5 or 6 clays out of the air if he has the talent. Try that with a O/U. I own two Benelli shotguns, an M1 and an M3-and I have a duck barrel for the M3. Shooting trap with the M3 is doable but not ideal. Despite having 23 years of experience with the M3, I did a lot better with a Browning Citori despite having zero prior experience with one. Apples and oranges. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 10:11:09 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Personally, I think this thing looks awesome.......but the comments on tribe mainstream shotgun sports websites from avid shooters are very dismissive of it's appearance. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Yks3G8kUWS4/VEHKoqMxDTI/AAAAAAAAKJI/JOchxiWj9nQ/s1600/Dsc_0285.jpg Do you want to see some of the ugliest, beat down, modified and worn out shotguns? Find a pigeon shoot and get an invitation. When REAL money is on the line, the shooter use what works for them. If it kills the birds and they have confidence in it.....looks matter little. But, since REAL money is in play, you will also get to see some gunmakers art. You will also see shotguns that demonstrate they can take abuse. A steady diet of 3 1/4dram 1 1/4oz loads will quickly destroy all but the best designed shotguns Again, since REAL money is on the line, the guns are chosen for durability. There are no mulligans or slow pulls or do overs at a pigeon shoot. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 10:15:01 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote Historybecause its all thats legal in the UK? |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 10:15:55 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you want to see some of the ugliest, beat down, modified and worn out shotguns? Find a pigeon shoot and get an invitation. When REAL money is on the line, the shooter use what works for them. If it kills the birds and they have confidence in it.....looks matter little. But, since REAL money is in play, you will also get to see some gunmakers art. You will also see shotguns that demonstrate they can take abuse. A steady diet of 3 1/4dram 1 1/4oz loads will quickly destroy all but the best designed shotguns Again, since REAL money is on the line, the guns are chosen for durability. There are no mulligans or slow pulls or do overs at a pigeon shoot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Personally, I think this thing looks awesome.......but the comments on tribe mainstream shotgun sports websites from avid shooters are very dismissive of it's appearance. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Yks3G8kUWS4/VEHKoqMxDTI/AAAAAAAAKJI/JOchxiWj9nQ/s1600/Dsc_0285.jpg Do you want to see some of the ugliest, beat down, modified and worn out shotguns? Find a pigeon shoot and get an invitation. When REAL money is on the line, the shooter use what works for them. If it kills the birds and they have confidence in it.....looks matter little. But, since REAL money is in play, you will also get to see some gunmakers art. You will also see shotguns that demonstrate they can take abuse. A steady diet of 3 1/4dram 1 1/4oz loads will quickly destroy all but the best designed shotguns Again, since REAL money is on the line, the guns are chosen for durability. There are no mulligans or slow pulls or do overs at a pigeon shoot. Loaded with 4s, that would be an appropriate drone load too. 
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Posted: 10/27/2014 10:21:59 AM EDT
[#12]
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http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Yks3G8kUWS4/VEHKoqMxDTI/AAAAAAAAKJI/JOchxiWj9nQ/s1600/Dsc_0285.jpg Like how it looks. Does anyone know how it handles/feels/shoots? Not a lot of reviews of the SC1 since they didn't make a lot of them, but it is basically a Winchester 101 so you can get a good idea of what it will be like based on that |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 10:24:59 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Like how it looks. Does anyone know how it handles/feels/shoots? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And that's the part that gets me... I could see how regulating anything with two barrels would require some serious craftsmanship using old world techniques, but with all the computerized capabilities in modern manufacturing, I can't see why a long term serviceable OU would need to cost thousands of dollars. Sure, the upfront investment would be heavy, but when word of what you're producing gets out, the demand will be there. I think the O/U market tends to support itself based on an informal hierarchy. That is evidenced in this thread. If people are willing to pay $3200 for a full sporting clays Citori, why would the market demand change? Browning and beretta operate as a duopoly with the majority of the mass market, and they both recognize without collusion that high prices must be supported, and are mutually beneficial. If market pressures dictated it, the quality could get there for a lot less money. But buyers still demand quality wood and silly aching engraving. Browning has done numerous "unconventional" cynergies, and they get overlooked at any price. The Turkish guns are getting better and better as the low end gets more competitive, so there is some possibilities there. Ultimately, I think if more younger people got into the sport, prices would be forced down. Not because we don't have the money. We do indeed have the money, and far less obligations than older buyers. But we tend to be better informed and have much more mobile decisions that would cause competition from a pricing perspective. We would also demand much more modular platforms. So the premium in extra barrels or barrel sets would be driven down as well. It would be interesting to see what an O/U would look like for someone brought up in a world of AR-15's almost exclusively. I imagine that a common receiver and fire control group would be the heart of such a system. My perspective, at least with shotguns, is as a beginner. I shot a couple rounds of trap as a teenager, but that was 10 years ago. After looking around the market for a little while, I just bought a cheap used Fausti from the Traditions line to get my feet wet. I'm guessing it's not a gun that I'll get tens of thousands of rounds through, but if I get to shooting like that, I'll probably upgrade anyways. But I've got to say, I'm a bit dissatisfied with the market, I'm probably not going to buy a new trap gun, and pricing is a big part of that. I'm not afraid to pay for quality, but there's a limit to what I'm willing to spend on any one gun. My S&W 17-2, for example, was significantly more expensive than a brand new Ruger SP-101, but the fit and finish and overall build quality makes it worth it to me. I could probably make similar comparisons with other guns, but I think you get the point. But any time I buy anything like that, I consider what I'm getting for the money. My S&W revolvers were worth it. My CZ bolt action rifles were worth it. But when I look at the $1500+ OUs, I almost immediately start wondering how much of that price tag is in that damn engraving. Engraving does nothing for me, and I don't give a damn about buying some kind of street cred with the old timey gentlemen's bunch. I want function and serviceability, and that's about it. As you suggest, I don't know that I'd expect Browning or Beretta to take that next step forward and ruin their cash cow. Maybe one of the two might to tap into a broader audience, but that would surprise me.I'm pretty sure another manufacturer would need to do that. Who? I don't know. I could maybe see Ruger doing it, but they've got to figure out where they're going with the Red Label. I've only seen one batch of the new ones go out, and there seems to be some shuffling. Remington could do it if they weren't being killed by a toxic corporate culture driven by accountants. FN/Winchester could do it, but they seem to be in an identity crisis. I'd like to think that something's got to give at some point. If I'm not mistaken, most of the engraving on the guns you can buy at big box stores, or typical dealers is done machine or laser. So, it's not really something that should contribute to the cost so much. I prefer clean, unadorned receivers personally. I like the clean look of the red labels especially. Browning has a nice unadorned citori out now with a street price of under $1800. Nice blued receiver. No silly puppies or birdies. The cynergy someone posted above would be ideal except for the FDE "wood". It seems that browning and beretta encourage the implanted American idea that stupid scenes of birds fleeing for their lives are a required feature of American market shotguns. Even the Europeans have abandoned these gruesome, Silly scenes. I guess I can appreciate them when down by hand on higher end guns, but on the mass market stuff, blegch.
Personally, I think this thing looks awesome.......but the comments on tribe mainstream shotgun sports websites from avid shooters are very dismissive of it's appearance. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Yks3G8kUWS4/VEHKoqMxDTI/AAAAAAAAKJI/JOchxiWj9nQ/s1600/Dsc_0285.jpg Like how it looks. Does anyone know how it handles/feels/shoots? I like the looks It is essentially a rebranded new-version of the Belgian Winchester 101. Which should be noted as slightly different than the older Japanese made Winchester 101's, which had a reputation of being heavy in recoil. However, this is all based on the comments of the sporting clays and trap crowd, which can be biased especially against anything lower Priced than the lower end citori and berettas. The win 101 spots under the Brownings in price ($1100-$1700 segment) It's hard to find I depth reviews of either the new 101 or the fn version. I would imagine that it is quite decent if you don't know what you are missing with other guns. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 10:26:23 AM EDT
[#14]
In more practical terms you are paying for an action that will stay tight (safe to shoot) for thousands upon thousands upon thousands of rounds and barrels that are regulated to a known, appropriate and predictable point of convergence.
You can buy a cheaper 2x barrel shotgun but if you are planning to put 50K+ rounds through it in league style competition or if you are going to shoot that much to appreciate the difference between being an "A" and a "AA" shooter, then you will probably be buying up to a better shotgun sooner than later. BTW- I am NOT a shotgun snob but you do need the right tool for the job at hand. For occasional, informal rounds of Skeet with friends, a more budget friendly gun will likely be all you need. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 10:29:54 AM EDT
[#15]
The watch comparison is good.
Yes you can get a digital one that accurately tells time and requires only a battery change or less periodically but something to about a auauto with its gearing and precision makes desirable. I bought a mid grade one from cdnn a few years back snd hunted it hard. Very nice for 550 but in the end the versatility and ruggedness of a auto appealed more. I've still got a citori or possibly a cynergy on the want list but outside of upland and clays I don't see it being used for much |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 10:31:48 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For trap it may work, but with sporting clays you may have one long shot ans the other part of the pair close. With my O/U I can put the right tube in for the right target. Can't do that with a single barrel. 
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Yesterdays technology at tomorrows prices. A nice semi-auto shotgun is better period.
Having two chokes is nice but most of the top sporting and fitasc shooters use fixed chokes or never change them. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 6:12:10 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Man, that German gun looks nice.  It looked even better today!
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Posted: 10/27/2014 6:22:33 PM EDT
[#18]
130 y.o. engraving.
Looks just right on this SxS. Would look pretty silly on an 870.
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Posted: 10/27/2014 6:28:51 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If I'm not mistaken, most of the engraving on the guns you can buy at big box stores, or typical dealers is done machine or laser. So, it's not really something that should contribute to the cost so much. I prefer clean, unadorned receivers personally. I like the clean look of the red labels especially. Browning has a nice unadorned citori out now with a street price of under $1800. Nice blued receiver. No silly puppies or birdies. The cynergy someone posted above would be ideal except for the FDE "wood". It seems that browning and beretta encourage the implanted American idea that stupid scenes of birds fleeing for their lives are a required feature of American market shotguns. Even the Europeans have abandoned these gruesome, silly scenes. I guess I can appreciate them when down by hand on higher end guns, but on the mass market stuff, blegch.
Personally, I think this thing looks awesome.......but the comments on tribe mainstream shotgun sports websites from avid shooters are very dismissive of it's appearance. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Yks3G8kUWS4/VEHKoqMxDTI/AAAAAAAAKJI/JOchxiWj9nQ/s1600/Dsc_0285.jpg I almost always prefer cleaner designs. I don't typically like things dressed up. If I saw a shotgun that actually had an engraving of a bird being blasted with a horrified look on its face, I might actually want it. If only just a little.
The laminate stock on that shotgun looks very Ruger to me. |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 6:33:00 PM EDT
[#20]
I like boxlocks with a coin finish and no engraving but you need engraving on a sidelock.
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Posted: 10/27/2014 6:34:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It looked even better today!
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Marksman30/Pets/Chuck/20141027_162236_zps3b433910.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Man, that German gun looks nice. It looked even better today!
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Marksman30/Pets/Chuck/20141027_162236_zps3b433910.jpg 
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Posted: 10/27/2014 6:35:26 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryWait... is this guys name George Dickweed? |
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Posted: 10/27/2014 6:39:48 PM EDT
[#23]
I've been shooting a lot more dove per box of shells with the Citori White Lightning the last couple of years than I ever did with the old 870 for about the prior thirty years. It was a great trade for a semi custom rifle that just sat in the safe.
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Posted: 10/27/2014 7:02:34 PM EDT
[#24]
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a smart car can't go 200mph+ Quote HistoryQuoted:
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IIRC, a Bugatti Veyron Super Sport is $3.5 Million new. And it doesn't do anything a Smart Car doesn't do too a smart car can't go 200mph+ It can after you drop it out of an airplane. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 12:54:59 AM EDT
[#25]
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Wait... is this guys name George Dickweed? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wait... is this guys name George Dickweed? Yes |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 9:45:53 AM EDT
[#26]
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Yes Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Wait... is this guys name George Dickweed? Yes No. His last name is DiGweed. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 10:42:33 AM EDT
[#27]
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No. His last name is DiGweed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Wait... is this guys name George Dickweed? Yes No. His last name is DiGweed. That's the anglicized version of Dickweed. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 10:48:31 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Not all of us think the same of JMB last design. This thread has me looking at Browning Superposed Shotguns again. Glad you change that avatar, Matt.  Sorry for being late to the thread   |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 11:02:31 AM EDT
[#29]
I've got an old Charles Daly Miroku made shotgun that my dad had bought for his dad's birthday in the 70's. Supposedly they are very similar to early Browning Citori shotguns, as Browning contracted with them after Charles Daly. Somewhere along the way it was taken apart due to a broken spring, and a couple pieces were lost. I would love to get that thing up and running again. I got his Savage 330 up and running again, but that Charles Daly is just a nice looking and feeling shotgun.
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Posted: 10/28/2014 11:06:43 AM EDT
[#30]
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Why are they so much? Seems like you pay over $1000 just to get something considered decent, when that kind of money can get you a good AR. It seems like more work would go into an AR, but obviously I am missing something. What is the deal? My competition shotgun costs more because my AR doesn't look like this............ 
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Posted: 10/28/2014 11:15:04 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryI despise the way clay shooters are so cavalier with where they point their muzzles, just because the shotgun action is open. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 11:20:41 AM EDT
[#32]
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I despise the way clay shooters are so cavalier with where they point their muzzles, just because the shotgun action is open. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I despise the way clay shooters are so cavalier with where they point their muzzles, just because the shotgun action is open. My holstered handgun sweeps hundreds of people a day...... Once the action is broken, I'm pretty comfortable. But to your point, the HTF moderator and I were at a trap stand the other week, and were looking down he barrels of a closed action as the old timer opened the action. That was a clencher. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 11:29:44 AM EDT
[#33]
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My holstered handgun sweeps hundreds of people a day...... Once the action is broken, I'm pretty comfortable. But to your point, the HTF moderator and I were at a trap stand the other week, and were looking down he barrels of a closed action as the old timer opened the action. That was a clencher. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I despise the way clay shooters are so cavalier with where they point their muzzles, just because the shotgun action is open. My holstered handgun sweeps hundreds of people a day...... Once the action is broken, I'm pretty comfortable. But to your point, the HTF moderator and I were at a trap stand the other week, and were looking down he barrels of a closed action as the old timer opened the action. That was a clencher. With a holstered handgun - the trigger is covered, your hands aren't on the weapon, and you don't have much choice. With a OU shotgun, I just feel it is bad practice. There is no reason for it, and exhibiting muzzle discipline is entirely possible. My experience with clay shooters is that they muzzle sweep people much more than target shooters, even when their actions are closed. They just get complacent because they don't enforce muzzle discipline all the time when possible. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 11:34:53 AM EDT
[#34]
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With a holstered handgun - the trigger is covered, your hands aren't on the weapon, and you don't have much choice. With a OU shotgun, I just feel it is bad practice. There is no reason for it, and exhibiting muzzle discipline is entirely possible. My experience with clay shooters is that they muzzle sweep people much more than target shooters, even when their actions are closed. They just get complacent because they don't enforce muzzle discipline all the time when possible. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I despise the way clay shooters are so cavalier with where they point their muzzles, just because the shotgun action is open. My holstered handgun sweeps hundreds of people a day...... Once the action is broken, I'm pretty comfortable. But to your point, the HTF moderator and I were at a trap stand the other week, and were looking down he barrels of a closed action as the old timer opened the action. That was a clencher. With a holstered handgun - the trigger is covered, your hands aren't on the weapon, and you don't have much choice. With a OU shotgun, I just feel it is bad practice. There is no reason for it, and exhibiting muzzle discipline is entirely possible. My experience with clay shooters is that they muzzle sweep people much more than target shooters, even when their actions are closed. They just get complacent because they don't enforce muzzle discipline all the time when possible. I can agree with that. Muzzle discipline should remain nearly as strict as with any other gun. Only exceptions should be those that rest the barrel on their shoes when action is broken, or broken over the shoulder. When I speak up about sweeping at the range, I get the "damn knowitall kids" bullshit back sometimes. I just hope it's never followed by the inevitable "I didn't think it was loaded......" |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 11:35:42 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I despise the way clay shooters are so cavalier with where they point their muzzles, just because the shotgun action is open. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I despise the way clay shooters are so cavalier with where they point their muzzles, just because the shotgun action is open. I pay attention and make sure my daughters do the same, but in reality, at a large sporting clays shoot, it is nearly impossible to do it any other way. When going from station to station, muzzles up or down, but when you may have as many as 15-20+ shooters going to and from any station, along with shooters waiting and spectators an open gun is the only way. EDIT: In that video, as the sole shooter Digweed could have done better. But in 20+ World Championships he hasn't shot anybody...... I see the same thing at 3-Gun, with the difference being requirements for chamber flags, since you can't 'break' open most firearms used. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 11:44:15 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I see the same thing at 3-Gun, with the difference being requirements for chamber flags, since you can't 'break' open most firearms used. At a responsibly run 3gun - there is ZERO muzzle sweeping. Weapons are always carried muzzle up. Once cleared, muzzle up and you carry it to the rack, or to the fiddle table/safe table, which is facing a side berm or a direction where nobody can be. This is where you bag your weapon, or flip it muzzle down to mount on your 3gun cart. The only time I see an issue at a 3gun is when the match is a smaller outlaw match and they don't define a good safe area/weapons table, or someone is lazy, and they carry the weapon to their bag laying on the ground, and bag it up in the crowd. If I get swept by these people I let them know, whether they like it or not. If I am RO'ing, I let everyone know the proper method. I quit competing at a local Thursday night match here, for this very reason, and I informed the match director that he needed to solve this problem before someone gets killed under his watch. I seem to take this a little more seriously (Nazi) than a lot of people I talk to. Just how I am wired. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 11:54:59 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
At a responsibly run 3gun - there is ZERO muzzle sweeping. Weapons are always carried muzzle up. Once cleared, muzzle up and you carry it to the rack, or to the fiddle table/safe table, which is facing a side berm or a direction where nobody can be. This is where you bag your weapon, or flip it muzzle down to mount on your 3gun cart. The only time I see an issue at a 3gun is when the match is a smaller outlaw match and they don't define a good safe area/weapons table, or someone is lazy, and they carry the weapon to their bag laying on the ground, and bag it up in the crowd. If I get swept by these people I let them know, whether they like it or not. If I am RO'ing, I let everyone know the proper method. I quit competing at a local Thursday night match here, for this very reason, and I informed the match director that he needed to solve this problem before someone gets killed under his watch. I seem to take this a little more seriously (Nazi) than a lot of people I talk to. Just how I am wired. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I see the same thing at 3-Gun, with the difference being requirements for chamber flags, since you can't 'break' open most firearms used. At a responsibly run 3gun - there is ZERO muzzle sweeping. Weapons are always carried muzzle up. Once cleared, muzzle up and you carry it to the rack, or to the fiddle table/safe table, which is facing a side berm or a direction where nobody can be. This is where you bag your weapon, or flip it muzzle down to mount on your 3gun cart. The only time I see an issue at a 3gun is when the match is a smaller outlaw match and they don't define a good safe area/weapons table, or someone is lazy, and they carry the weapon to their bag laying on the ground, and bag it up in the crowd. If I get swept by these people I let them know, whether they like it or not. If I am RO'ing, I let everyone know the proper method. I quit competing at a local Thursday night match here, for this very reason, and I informed the match director that he needed to solve this problem before someone gets killed under his watch. I seem to take this a little more seriously (Nazi) than a lot of people I talk to. Just how I am wired. While not an excuse, the ability of a sporting shotgun to kill or maim is severely limited by distance. We only have had one accident at my club. A dropped SG went off (probably fired as trying to be caught), and it hit one guy low and oblique about 50-60ft away with target loads. Even wearing shorts, it was like road rash. But what if someone had accidentally loaded magnum buck???? Goodbye leg. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 12:04:17 PM EDT
[#38]
I've shot a lot of trap with my M1, and have had the opportunity to shoot with a good trap gun. The difference is incredible.
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Posted: 10/28/2014 1:14:56 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
At a responsibly run 3gun - there is ZERO muzzle sweeping. Weapons are always carried muzzle up. Once cleared, muzzle up and you carry it to the rack, or to the fiddle table/safe table, which is facing a side berm or a direction where nobody can be. This is where you bag your weapon, or flip it muzzle down to mount on your 3gun cart. The only time I see an issue at a 3gun is when the match is a smaller outlaw match and they don't define a good safe area/weapons table, or someone is lazy, and they carry the weapon to their bag laying on the ground, and bag it up in the crowd. If I get swept by these people I let them know, whether they like it or not. If I am RO'ing, I let everyone know the proper method. I quit competing at a local Thursday night match here, for this very reason, and I informed the match director that he needed to solve this problem before someone gets killed under his watch. I seem to take this a little more seriously (Nazi) than a lot of people I talk to. Just how I am wired. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I see the same thing at 3-Gun, with the difference being requirements for chamber flags, since you can't 'break' open most firearms used. At a responsibly run 3gun - there is ZERO muzzle sweeping. Weapons are always carried muzzle up. Once cleared, muzzle up and you carry it to the rack, or to the fiddle table/safe table, which is facing a side berm or a direction where nobody can be. This is where you bag your weapon, or flip it muzzle down to mount on your 3gun cart. The only time I see an issue at a 3gun is when the match is a smaller outlaw match and they don't define a good safe area/weapons table, or someone is lazy, and they carry the weapon to their bag laying on the ground, and bag it up in the crowd. If I get swept by these people I let them know, whether they like it or not. If I am RO'ing, I let everyone know the proper method. I quit competing at a local Thursday night match here, for this very reason, and I informed the match director that he needed to solve this problem before someone gets killed under his watch. I seem to take this a little more seriously (Nazi) than a lot of people I talk to. Just how I am wired. I was referring to when they are moving between stages. Lots of people moving, lots of flagged guns. I'm not saying I like it, but am aware of why and how it happens. Now to end the hijack. Charles Daly/Miroku Superior Grade Shoulda kept this one. 
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Posted: 10/28/2014 1:18:13 PM EDT
[#40]
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I can even see spending 3 or so K on a nice upland gun. What I don't understand are the $50k to $200K O/U's. that is house or Lambo money. If you are looking to purchase a 200k shotgun, you already have the mansion, lambo, and jet. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 1:48:27 PM EDT
[#41]
I just want to say this thread has overall been a nice break from the usual ebola/doom and gloom/righteous indignation threads. now i kinda want an O/U even though I never shoot clays or go bird hunting.
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Posted: 10/28/2014 2:23:06 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you are looking to purchase a 200k shotgun, you already have the mansion, lambo, and jet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I can even see spending 3 or so K on a nice upland gun. What I don't understand are the $50k to $200K O/U's. that is house or Lambo money. If you are looking to purchase a 200k shotgun, you already have the mansion, lambo, and jet. One of the guys I know who has Perrazis drives a GMC pickup. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 2:26:13 PM EDT
[#43]
See no sense in spending all that much, very happy with my 870 and my Winchester md 101
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Posted: 10/28/2014 2:40:37 PM EDT
[#44]
OK, someone talk to me about barrel length. I think I have the general idea, but would like confirmation, opinions, and/or arguments...
Let's say you have 3 of the same gauge and model shotgun with one being 26", the next 28", and finally a 30".
Do I have this right? Are the patterning and range improvements negligible? If I missed some other characteristics or benefits, please add and explain. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 2:43:35 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I despise the way clay shooters are so cavalier with where they point their muzzles, just because the shotgun action is open. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I despise the way clay shooters are so cavalier with where they point their muzzles, just because the shotgun action is open. dt. |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 2:43:54 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I despise the way clay shooters are so cavalier with where they point their muzzles, just because the shotgun action is open. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I despise the way clay shooters are so cavalier with where they point their muzzles, just because the shotgun action is open. an open O/U doesn't scare me. But the uncontrolled swing some people have when in the box does.
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Posted: 10/28/2014 2:51:49 PM EDT
[#47]
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Translated - "I don't own one"....  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Accuracy? No Durability? No Reliability? No Fancy carvings on the stock? Yes And the otjher two words he did not say was: Fudd?Yes...
He probably has never owned one. I had the pleasure several years ago to shoot a millionaires $6k Perazzi and I can say what a fine and balanced over and under that was!! |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 2:57:35 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK, someone talk to me about barrel length. I think I have the general idea, but would like confirmation, opinions, and/or arguments... Let's say you have 3 of the same gauge and model shotgun with one being 26", the next 28", and finally a 30".
Do I have this right? Are the patterning and range improvements negligible? If I missed some other characteristics or benefits, please add and explain. 32" with extended chokes is becoming the norm now |
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Posted: 10/28/2014 3:21:13 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK, someone talk to me about barrel length. I think I have the general idea, but would like confirmation, opinions, and/or arguments... Let's say you have 3 of the same gauge and model shotgun with one being 26", the next 28", and finally a 30".
Do I have this right? Are the patterning and range improvements negligible? If I missed some other characteristics or benefits, please add and explain. It's all about swing, balance and handling. Barrel length has nothing to do with pattern or range. The 26" barrel is all but done in the market, except for a few upland game hunters. Even 28" is considered short by most folks these days. I own a couple of 28" barreled guns but my favorites have 30" barrels. There really is a noticeable difference between 28" and 30", assuming the same barrel profile (i.e. two identical guns with the exception of barrel length). ETA: Longer barrels are also easier to rest on your foot . . . (I only mention this because I know it will drive some folks nuts) . . . 
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Posted: 10/28/2014 3:26:42 PM EDT
[#50]
My Benelli M2 Tactical is worth every penny I paid for it! The M2 and M4 are superb semiautomatic shotguns......period.
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