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Posted: 9/30/2014 7:41:01 PM EDT
Didn't want to muddy up another thread.
I see repeated claims that the spygate scandal proved the Patriots only won because they cheated. I see two entirely conflicting stories. The first story I see thrown around was that they were video recording signals and that was the issue. The second story was that the issue had nothing at all to do with the content of what was recorded, but was merely an infraction of where the offending camera was located, in which case the Patriots recieved zero advantage from what was recorded, that the other teams don't also equally get, and their achievement was legitamet. A recent thread had this link posted, which drew not a single response, as it throws water on the rampant "they only won because they cheated" crowd http://bleacherreport.com/articles/199345-the-truth-about-spygate-punishing-success-and-promoting-parity The article isn't short, but lays out a convincing point. Can the "they're cheaters" crowd read it with an open mind, or do they just dismiss it outright without reading any of it? Does it change their minds? I'm looking for someone to put up a link that says the content of their video aided them, because for all the Bellicheat, or the Cheatriots that I see, this article just says that it wasn't so. After seeing the comments in a few other threads, I'm sure this one will go....well. 
And yes, they sucked mightilly last night. 
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Posted: 9/30/2014 7:45:19 PM EDT
[#1]
Notice they have not been to the super bowl since the cheating was found out . You be the judge
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Posted: 9/30/2014 7:49:27 PM EDT
[#2]
A fallback reply, did you read the article?
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Posted: 9/30/2014 7:50:02 PM EDT
[#3]
Tuck
Play
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Posted: 9/30/2014 7:51:45 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Notice they have not been to the super bowl since the cheating was found out . You be the judge  They've been in twice since being fined.
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Posted: 9/30/2014 7:54:21 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tuck Play Which was called exactly the same way several times that season with several different teams. Including against the Pats. |
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Posted: 9/30/2014 7:55:57 PM EDT
[#6]
It's just the evolution of warfare. I don't care if the Brits cry about the militia hiding behind trees ad rocks and shit. You play to your advantages.
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Posted: 9/30/2014 7:57:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Didn't want to muddy up another thread. I see repeated claims that the spygate scandal proved the Patriots only won because they cheated. I see two entirely conflicting stories. The first story I see thrown around was that they were video recording signals and that was the issue. The second story was that the issue had nothing at all to do with the content of what was recorded, but was merely an infraction of where the offending camera was located, in which case the Patriots recieved zero advantage from what was recorded, that the other teams don't also equally get, and their achievement was legitamet. A recent thread had this link posted, which drew not a single response, as it throws water on the rampant "they only won because they cheated" crowd http://bleacherreport.com/articles/199345-the-truth-about-spygate-punishing-success-and-promoting-parity The article isn't short, but lays out a convincing point. Can the "they're cheaters" crowd read it with an open mind, or do they just dismiss it outright without reading any of it? Does it change their minds? I'm looking for someone to put up a link that says the content of their video aided them, because for all the Bellicheat, or the Cheatriots that I see, this article just says that it wasn't so. After seeing the comments in a few other threads, I'm sure this one will go....well. And yes, they sucked mightilly last night. The Patriots this season make me sad.
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Posted: 9/30/2014 8:05:24 PM EDT
[#8]
If people weren't trying to steal signals teams wouldn't spend so much effort disguising them. To me it's part of the game. I played football, baseball, and basketball and during each one we would try and guess the other teams signals. I'm sure they were doing the same thing to us. It's part of the mental chess match going on during the game.
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Posted: 9/30/2014 8:34:10 PM EDT
[#9]
Blah blah blah...the pats got caught...blah blah blah...others have been caught too...blah blah blah...
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Posted: 9/30/2014 8:36:41 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Notice they have not been to the super bowl since the cheating was found out . You be the judge Notice you haven't been paying attention. |
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Posted: 9/30/2014 8:36:44 PM EDT
[#11]
If watching signals is cheating then huddles are cheating.
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Posted: 9/30/2014 8:37:08 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If people weren't trying to steal signals teams wouldn't spend so much effort disguising them. To me it's part of the game. I played football, baseball, and basketball and during each one we would try and guess the other teams signals. I'm sure they were doing the same thing to us. It's part of the mental chess match going on during the game. The pats got caught breaking specific rules regarding videotaping coaches hand signals. They got caught. There's no sugar coating it. A 1500 word essay on the history of stealing signals in the NFL doesn't change that. |
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Posted: 9/30/2014 8:37:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Also, they were fined because of the location of the video camera, which wasn't supposed to be at field level.
Whoop-de-fricken-do. |
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Posted: 9/30/2014 8:39:40 PM EDT
[#14]
I really don't care if it's cheating or not. They were trying to gain any advantage they could, and I respect that.
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Posted: 9/30/2014 8:50:36 PM EDT
[#15]
They just misinterpeted the rules!
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Posted: 9/30/2014 8:50:44 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I really don't care if it's cheating or not. They were trying to gain any advantage they could, and I respect that. i dont care either, i look at it as intelligence gathering. |
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Posted: 9/30/2014 8:54:40 PM EDT
[#17]
They used Ill gotten Intel to improve their ability to overcome superior offense.
Pretty simple. They earned nothing. |
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Posted: 9/30/2014 9:07:13 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The pats got caught breaking specific rules regarding videotaping coaches hand signals. They got caught. There's no sugar coating it. A 1500 word essay on the history of stealing signals in the NFL doesn't change that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If people weren't trying to steal signals teams wouldn't spend so much effort disguising them. To me it's part of the game. I played football, baseball, and basketball and during each one we would try and guess the other teams signals. I'm sure they were doing the same thing to us. It's part of the mental chess match going on during the game. The pats got caught breaking specific rules regarding videotaping coaches hand signals. They got caught. There's no sugar coating it. A 1500 word essay on the history of stealing signals in the NFL doesn't change that. the specific rule was listed as where the video was taken from, not one mention of what was on the video, this is the key point that seems to be missed |
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Posted: 9/30/2014 9:09:36 PM EDT
[#19]
Ya'll cried because the Saints played real football.
So, don't care. |
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Posted: 9/30/2014 9:17:52 PM EDT
[#20]
What difference does it make?
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Posted: 9/30/2014 9:33:44 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the specific rule was listed as where the video was taken from, not one mention of what was on the video, this is the key point that seems to be missed Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If people weren't trying to steal signals teams wouldn't spend so much effort disguising them. To me it's part of the game. I played football, baseball, and basketball and during each one we would try and guess the other teams signals. I'm sure they were doing the same thing to us. It's part of the mental chess match going on during the game. The pats got caught breaking specific rules regarding videotaping coaches hand signals. They got caught. There's no sugar coating it. A 1500 word essay on the history of stealing signals in the NFL doesn't change that. the specific rule was listed as where the video was taken from, not one mention of what was on the video, this is the key point that seems to be missed Sooooo... Then we agree. They cheated. They got caught. They got it broken off in their ass by the league because it was just a smidge  more than having a camera in an unauthorized area.
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Posted: 9/30/2014 9:44:55 PM EDT
[#22]
Kinda like when a cop pulls someone over for a license plate light out, but smells weed and finds 1/4lb of blow and a dead hooker in the trunk.
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Posted: 9/30/2014 9:49:03 PM EDT
[#23]
*s
Mandatory characters |
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Posted: 9/30/2014 9:56:18 PM EDT
[#24]
Everybody cheats if they're competing hard enough.
Obvoiusly Bellitard was dumb enough to be caught. What a rube. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 9/30/2014 10:30:58 PM EDT
[#25]
The replies from all the tl;dr folks in here really makes the op's point.
It's not whether they cheated or not,[ the article make an excellent case that they didn't] it was more about a former asst. coach backstabbing them and Goodell hamstringing the dominant team at the time.
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Posted: 9/30/2014 10:48:18 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sooooo... Then we agree. They cheated. They got caught. They got it broken off in their ass by the league because it was just a smidge more than having a camera in an unauthorized area.Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If people weren't trying to steal signals teams wouldn't spend so much effort disguising them. To me it's part of the game. I played football, baseball, and basketball and during each one we would try and guess the other teams signals. I'm sure they were doing the same thing to us. It's part of the mental chess match going on during the game. The pats got caught breaking specific rules regarding videotaping coaches hand signals. They got caught. There's no sugar coating it. A 1500 word essay on the history of stealing signals in the NFL doesn't change that. the specific rule was listed as where the video was taken from, not one mention of what was on the video, this is the key point that seems to be missed Sooooo... Then we agree. They cheated. They got caught. They got it broken off in their ass by the league because it was just a smidge more than having a camera in an unauthorized area.The NFL found them guilty of the infraction of filming from an unauthorized area. The NFL reviewed the content of the video and had no ruling on the content being "illegal", ergo, what they filmed was fine with them , just not where they filmed from, and they tacitly agree that the practice is carried out by all teams and the content they gleaned from the video was neither remarkable , nor any more advantageous to them than the content available to any other team through said teams own video taking, that video taking being a normal course of business. Was what they recorded wrong?...no, was where they recorded it from wrong?....yes, but if the what was OK, how did the where they recorded it from enhance their chances against an opposing team? it made no difference. |
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Posted: 9/30/2014 11:22:52 PM EDT
[#27]
Page 105 of the 2007 NFL Game Operations Manual states, "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game...All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."[17] Belichick stated that he believed that if footage so collected was not used during the game, its collection was legal, as the NFL Constitution and Bylaws stipulate that "...any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited...including without limitation...any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."[18] In a September 2006 memorandum sent out by NFL Vice President of Football Operations Ray Anderson, though, all teams were told that "videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."[18] He cheated. He broke the rules. He got caught. The NFL broke it off in his ass. Period. |
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Posted: 9/30/2014 11:32:02 PM EDT
[#28]
Seriously, only a boston fan could even attempt to argue that my belechick ain't do nuffin wrong. Everyone does it so it's ok! Just a different angle, no biggie!
Meanwhile, in reality, there were league wide memos sent out in the beginning of THAT SAME YEAR to not do EXACTLY what he did anyway. |
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Posted: 9/30/2014 11:38:27 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seriously, only a boston fan could even attempt to argue that my belechick ain't do nuffin wrong. Everyone does it so it's ok! Just a different angle, no biggie! Meanwhile, in reality, there were league wide memos sent out in the beginning of THAT SAME YEAR to not do EXACTLY what he did anyway. Dinnido_nuffin.jpeg Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 9/30/2014 11:52:13 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He cheated. He broke the rules. He got caught. The NFL broke it off in his ass. Period. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Page 105 of the 2007 NFL Game Operations Manual states, "No video recording devices of any kind are permitted to be in use in the coaches' booth, on the field, or in the locker room during the game...All video shooting locations must be enclosed on all sides with a roof overhead."[17] Belichick stated that he believed that if footage so collected was not used during the game, its collection was legal, as the NFL Constitution and Bylaws stipulate that "...any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited...including without limitation...any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."[18] In a September 2006 memorandum sent out by NFL Vice President of Football Operations Ray Anderson, though, all teams were told that "videotaping of any type, including but not limited to taping of an opponent's offensive or defensive signals, is prohibited on the sidelines, in the coaches' booth, in the locker room, or at any other locations accessible to club staff members during the game."[18] He cheated. He broke the rules. He got caught. The NFL broke it off in his ass. Period. The very next paragraph from the article most probably didn't read (you quoted from it, so you did...thanks) says: Unfortunately, the memo misquotes the rules, and Anderson can’t change the rules. Rule changes must be proposed to and voted on by the teams. The NFL cited the misquoted rules against the Patriots from pages A105-A106 of the league’s Policy Manual for Member Clubs Volume II: Game Operations 2007 edition. That article still says it was an issue of where, not what was recorded....a pretty long-ass article to read for sure. Edit to continue with a little more quote, taken directly after what I just posted. Anderson’s memo adds an emphasis on signals, which isn’t in the rules. Also, Anderson says that videotaping is prohibited from “any other locations accessible to club staff members.” This isn’t in the rules either. The rule mentions only three spots where teams can’t use video equipment during games—the coaches’ booth, the locker room, and the field. No rule bars teams from recording signals as long as they locate their cameras properly. Despite this, Goodell and especially the media continue to portray signal taping as the problem when the only real issue is camera location. [ |
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Posted: 10/1/2014 8:21:43 AM EDT
[#31]
If the info from the tapes is why they won in '01, '03, and '04, why didn't they win in '02, '05, and '06?
The only answer to that is that it really was not that useful. Those who actually read the article know the Patriots caught other teams doing it to them. They did not narc on those teams like that little bitch mangini. Jimmy Johnson and Bill Cowher have admitted everybody, including themselves did it. Since everbody had tape, there was no advantage. PERIOD. |
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Posted: 10/1/2014 8:31:08 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They just misinterpeted the rules! How do I get through to these kids? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 10/1/2014 8:46:45 AM EDT
[#33]
Take a look at the FSU vs Auburn National Championship game. 1st half FSU can't get their offense going. Second half they bring a guy out with a towel to shield the guy calling offensive plays.
Auburn was intercepting FSU's offensive plays. The head coach for Auburn previously worked for the FSU coach. Coach Jimbo Fischer acknowledges they were stealing his plays the first half and the second half had to make an adjustment. Moral of the story here is, it appears this kind of conduct is accepted now as part of the game. Source: http://www.al.com/auburnfootball/index.ssf/2014/01/florida_states_jimbo_fisher_sa.html |
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Posted: 10/1/2014 8:51:41 AM EDT
[#34]
That article is the longest 'other people did it too, we just got caught' effort I have ever read. |
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Posted: 10/1/2014 9:03:45 AM EDT
[#35]
Cheating or not, this graphic I did always brings a smile to my face
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Posted: 10/1/2014 9:05:17 AM EDT
[#36]
In 1987' at the world Champioships of skydiving in Brazil, the 8 way event was on weather hold with the last two of ten rounds left. The score was tied between the top two teams.
The rules stated at the time that "after the competition jumps have been drawn, no more practice is allowed on site." One of the top two teams, who had unlimited sponsorship money and access to their own aircraft, took their own plane off site and practiced the last two rounds. The Golden Knights won the meet. Did the team who practiced off site cheat? |
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Posted: 10/1/2014 9:39:33 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Didn't want to muddy up another thread. I see repeated claims that the spygate scandal proved the Patriots only won because they cheated. I see two entirely conflicting stories. The first story I see thrown around was that they were video recording signals and that was the issue. The second story was that the issue had nothing at all to do with the content of what was recorded, but was merely an infraction of where the offending camera was located, in which case the Patriots recieved zero advantage from what was recorded, that the other teams don't also equally get, and their achievement was legitamet. A recent thread had this link posted, which drew not a single response, as it throws water on the rampant "they only won because they cheated" crowd http://bleacherreport.com/articles/199345-the-truth-about-spygate-punishing-success-and-promoting-parity The article isn't short, but lays out a convincing point. Can the "they're cheaters" crowd read it with an open mind, or do they just dismiss it outright without reading any of it? Does it change their minds? I'm looking for someone to put up a link that says the content of their video aided them, because for all the Bellicheat, or the Cheatriots that I see, this article just says that it wasn't so. After seeing the comments in a few other threads, I'm sure this one will go....well.
And yes, they sucked mightilly last night.
First, that article is five years old. I guess the point is still relevant though. The effects of Spygate were overblown. I personally don't care what the rules were or are. If a team violates the integrity of the game by stealing signs, I don't consider that part of the mental aspect, a chess match, or anything like that. It's like stealing signs in baseball. That's not how the game is played. I don't see that the Patriots did that to any meaningful extent, though. I saw them dominate through good personnel, good fundamental play, and more than a little help by the officiating crew. Nothing like was suggested. The bigger point in the article seems to state that the NFL punished the Patriots for being successful. I have no reason to think that, but that's also because a lack of parity makes the game boring. Salary cap leagues have less parity that non-salary cap leagues, and the NFL is no exception. The NFL's attempts at parity do not work as the same teams tend to do well every year. Sure, some teams fluctuate, but you had the Patriots for more than 10 years, whatever team Manning was on, the Saints, and on and on. For the most part it's dictated by the players. It has nothing to do with punishment. |
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Posted: 10/1/2014 10:07:35 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the info from the tapes is why they won in '01, '03, and '04, why didn't they win in '02, '05, and '06? The only answer to that is that it really was not that useful. Those who actually read the article know the Patriots caught other teams doing it to them. They did not narc on those teams like that little bitch mangini. Jimmy Johnson and Bill Cowher have admitted everybody, including themselves did it. Since everbody had tape, there was no advantage. PERIOD. Bullshit. All of it. Multiple players have said that when they would audible the pats would reset before they did. If that's not an advantage I don't know what is. Second, not one person has ever said that they weren't a great team those years. No one here is saying they won because of stealing signals. That's ridiculous. Third, don't be so butthurt that he got caught and suffered the consequences. For fucks sake, move on already. Fourth, "but everyone does it!111!!" is not an excuse. |
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Posted: 10/1/2014 10:40:17 AM EDT
[#39]
Since we wanna toss up opinion pieces and report them as fact...
Spy Gate The Untold Story …a new book entitled “Spygate the Untold Story,” suggests the league successfully covered up and minimized the New England spying scandal.
By destroying the tapes quickly, fining the Patriots and taking away a draft pick, but not suspending coach Bill Belichick, commissioner Roger Goodell convinced the public it was a minor matter that didn’t have a big impact on the Patriots’ success. But author Bryan O’Leary contends it was a key to their three Super Bowl victories and suggests the Patriots might be still doing it in their home stadium, where it’s easy to hide a camera in an obscure place. O’Leary says it wasn’t just the filming the signals that made the plan work. The Patriots, he wrote, also had a radio frequency to quarterback Tom Brady’s helmet that didn’t click off with 15 seconds left before the play clock runs down — the way the league frequency does. Ernie Adams, a close confidant of Belichick’s, who is noted for his ability to read defenses, but whose duties have been never publicly defined, is the person in Brady’s ear via their secret frequency, O’Leary writes. He added that Adams can talk to Brady until the ball is snapped and even afterward to alert Brady to the open receiver. |
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Posted: 10/2/2014 5:52:12 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If the info from the tapes is why they won in '01, '03, and '04, why didn't they win in '02, '05, and '06? The only answer to that is that it really was not that useful. Those who actually read the article know the Patriots caught other teams doing it to them. They did not narc on those teams like that little bitch mangini. Jimmy Johnson and Bill Cowher have admitted everybody, including themselves did it. Since everbody had tape, there was no advantage. PERIOD. Pretty much this. I think Bill tried to gain an advantage with it, but results were hit-and-miss. |
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Posted: 10/2/2014 6:07:42 AM EDT
[#41]
"Cheating" and "Being Good At Cheating" are two entirely different subjects. |
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Posted: 10/2/2014 6:31:18 AM EDT
[#42]
Not cheating.....everything is fair in love and war.....and there was once a place called America
If not, there is always Soccer to fall back on as the national pastime and the accent of college bound girls for men to adopt as pleasant |
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Posted: 10/2/2014 6:39:43 AM EDT
[#43]
Meh people just bring it up because of jealousy. When a team is in contention for the super bowl every year people have to find something to complain about. Its been 5yrs and they still bring it up.
Watching them this year is pretty damn painful. I'll be surprised if they make the playoffs if they keep it up. |
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Posted: 10/2/2014 6:45:51 AM EDT
[#44]
W H O
C A R E S
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Posted: 10/2/2014 6:52:45 AM EDT
[#45]
ISIS, Ebola, Illegals, Obamacare, our country being turned into a third world socialist shit hole, and THIS is what you come up with to reflect on?
Jesus Wept.....The bottom is out of the bucket.
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Posted: 10/2/2014 6:53:12 AM EDT
[#46]
the real cheating was the pass interference that allowed them to do man on man coverage with the safeties plugging the box.
When the league started enforcing pass interference, thats what killed the patriots. the filming was all bullshit back ground. they went from a defensive powerhouse to getting a shitload of good receivers and went to an offensive powerhouse to adjust. Kudos to belichek for seeing the future Great defense that got old. It happens. Patriots play in a weak division. That helps. Belichek knows his business. Brady is a great quarterback. Constant in quarterback and coaching helps in crafting great teams and dynasties. You can't change your system every two years and expect success. A 3-4 linebacker doesn't do as well in a 4-3. cover two doesn't work with man to man DBs. roll out passers don't work in systems designed for immoble, tall quarterbacks. Power backs without hands, can't work in a passing system that depends on outlet swings. |
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Posted: 10/2/2014 6:54:31 AM EDT
[#47]
I don't see it as cheating, but I do see Tom Brady crying on camera (even once) as embarrassing for the team and hilarious for the rest of us. ;)
In any case, they're a chew toy this year. |
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Posted: 10/2/2014 7:00:42 AM EDT
[#48]
Who cares. It's a pro sport. Worry about something that matters.
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Posted: 10/2/2014 7:01:23 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If people weren't trying to steal signals teams wouldn't spend so much effort disguising them. To me it's part of the game. I played football, baseball, and basketball and during each one we would try and guess the other teams signals. I'm sure they were doing the same thing to us. It's part of the mental chess match going on during the game. I feel this way as well. |
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Posted: 10/2/2014 8:25:39 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bullshit. All of it. Multiple players have said that when they would audible the pats would reset before they did. If that's not an advantage I don't know what is. Second, not one person has ever said that they weren't a great team those years. No one here is saying they won because of stealing signals. That's ridiculous. Third, don't be so butthurt that he got caught and suffered the consequences. For fucks sake, move on already. Fourth, "but everyone does it!111!!" is not an excuse. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If the info from the tapes is why they won in '01, '03, and '04, why didn't they win in '02, '05, and '06? The only answer to that is that it really was not that useful. Those who actually read the article know the Patriots caught other teams doing it to them. They did not narc on those teams like that little bitch mangini. Jimmy Johnson and Bill Cowher have admitted everybody, including themselves did it. Since everbody had tape, there was no advantage. PERIOD. Bullshit. All of it. Multiple players have said that when they would audible the pats would reset before they did. If that's not an advantage I don't know what is. Second, not one person has ever said that they weren't a great team those years. No one here is saying they won because of stealing signals. That's ridiculous. Third, don't be so butthurt that he got caught and suffered the consequences. For fucks sake, move on already. Fourth, "but everyone does it!111!!" is not an excuse. First of all, how do you get info on an audible (verbal code given by the qb) from hand signals given by the coach? As Peyton Manning once said, Omaha means a shit load of different things. Second, what I am saying is that it wasn't why they have 3 rings, and I am saying that a rules infraction by the coach does not delegitimize what Brady and his teammates did. If it did then you would also have to say the Saints ring is tainted. Also, all of the teams who cheated on the salary cap to field a team of Pro Bowlers are tainted. I do not think that is a road to go down. All of the rings from before the Steel Curtain all the way to the Seahawks count until they are taken away by the NFL. |
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