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Posted: 10/21/2014 8:20:33 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I understand the key to survival is maintaining hydration and electrolyte balance during the illness. That's relatively easy to do here in the US; in Africa, it's downright impossible for the average patient. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So of the eight folks treated for Ebola in the US during this scare, only Duncan has died, correct? By my figurin', that ain't 70%. Western medicine's pretty cool. Duncan was 13 days from initial hospital visit to death, and was symptomatic a couple days before. Vinson & Pham probably entered isolation at an earlier phase than Duncan. Pham is on day 10 of hospitalization, and Vinson is on day 6. I still wouldn't be doing the dancing banana yet, since we don't yet know how the two nurses are doing. There's a lot of crap, so to speak, that could still happen. If good care here in the US can actually bring EVD CFR down to 12.5%, I'll be happily amazed. From what I understand the key to survival is maintaining hydration and electrolyte balance during the illness. That's relatively easy to do here in the US; in Africa, it's downright impossible for the average patient. Not to mention anti-bodies and experimental drugs. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 8:31:32 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I understand the key to survival is maintaining hydration and electrolyte balance during the illness. That's relatively easy to do here in the US; in Africa, it's downright impossible for the average patient. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So of the eight folks treated for Ebola in the US during this scare, only Duncan has died, correct? By my figurin', that ain't 70%. Western medicine's pretty cool. Duncan was 13 days from initial hospital visit to death, and was symptomatic a couple days before. Vinson & Pham probably entered isolation at an earlier phase than Duncan. Pham is on day 10 of hospitalization, and Vinson is on day 6. I still wouldn't be doing the dancing banana yet, since we don't yet know how the two nurses are doing. There's a lot of crap, so to speak, that could still happen. If good care here in the US can actually bring EVD CFR down to 12.5%, I'll be happily amazed. From what I understand the key to survival is maintaining hydration and electrolyte balance during the illness. That's relatively easy to do here in the US; in Africa, it's downright impossible for the average patient. That and spending $500,000+ per patient. If Ebola ever goes mainstream in the US, you can bet that mortality rate will begin to approach what it is in Africa. Imagine if say 100,000 people got Ebola here. That would be over 50 billion spent trying to treat them. That sounds like a lot of cases, but with 319 million people in the country, it is a very small percentage still. Plus, most hospitals are not set up to treat it, as we have seen in Dallas. If it got to that point, infections would continue to spread. The economy would collapse trying to treat people. When there are only 1 or 2 cases, it is easy to throw everything you have at it and survive. Not so much when there are 100,000 or 200,000 cases, or even 1,000 for that matter. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 8:37:09 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That and spending $500,000+ per patient. If Ebola ever goes mainstream in the US, you can bet that mortality rate will begin to approach what it is in Africa. Imagine if say 100,000 people got Ebola here. That would be over 50 billion spent trying to treat them. That sounds like a lot of cases, but with 319 million people in the country, it is a very small percentage still. Plus, most hospitals are not set up to treat it, as we have seen in Dallas. If it got to that point, infections would continue to spread. The economy would collapse trying to treat people. When there are only 1 or 2 cases, it is easy to throw everything you have at it and survive. Not so much when there are 100,000 or 200,000 cases, or even 1,000 for that matter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So of the eight folks treated for Ebola in the US during this scare, only Duncan has died, correct? By my figurin', that ain't 70%. Western medicine's pretty cool. Duncan was 13 days from initial hospital visit to death, and was symptomatic a couple days before. Vinson & Pham probably entered isolation at an earlier phase than Duncan. Pham is on day 10 of hospitalization, and Vinson is on day 6. I still wouldn't be doing the dancing banana yet, since we don't yet know how the two nurses are doing. There's a lot of crap, so to speak, that could still happen. If good care here in the US can actually bring EVD CFR down to 12.5%, I'll be happily amazed. From what I understand the key to survival is maintaining hydration and electrolyte balance during the illness. That's relatively easy to do here in the US; in Africa, it's downright impossible for the average patient. That and spending $500,000+ per patient. If Ebola ever goes mainstream in the US, you can bet that mortality rate will begin to approach what it is in Africa. Imagine if say 100,000 people got Ebola here. That would be over 50 billion spent trying to treat them. That sounds like a lot of cases, but with 319 million people in the country, it is a very small percentage still. Plus, most hospitals are not set up to treat it, as we have seen in Dallas. If it got to that point, infections would continue to spread. The economy would collapse trying to treat people. When there are only 1 or 2 cases, it is easy to throw everything you have at it and survive. Not so much when there are 100,000 or 200,000 cases, or even 1,000 for that matter. No doubt the current collection of fools, amateurs, and idiots running our country are breathing a sigh of relief that this has not yet happened. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 8:54:56 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That and spending $500,000+ per patient. If Ebola ever goes mainstream in the US, you can bet that mortality rate will begin to approach what it is in Africa. Imagine if say 100,000 people got Ebola here. That would be over 50 billion spent trying to treat them. That sounds like a lot of cases, but with 319 million people in the country, it is a very small percentage still. Plus, most hospitals are not set up to treat it, as we have seen in Dallas. If it got to that point, infections would continue to spread. The economy would collapse trying to treat people. When there are only 1 or 2 cases, it is easy to throw everything you have at it and survive. Not so much when there are 100,000 or 200,000 cases, or even 1,000 for that matter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So of the eight folks treated for Ebola in the US during this scare, only Duncan has died, correct? By my figurin', that ain't 70%. Western medicine's pretty cool. Duncan was 13 days from initial hospital visit to death, and was symptomatic a couple days before. Vinson & Pham probably entered isolation at an earlier phase than Duncan. Pham is on day 10 of hospitalization, and Vinson is on day 6. I still wouldn't be doing the dancing banana yet, since we don't yet know how the two nurses are doing. There's a lot of crap, so to speak, that could still happen. If good care here in the US can actually bring EVD CFR down to 12.5%, I'll be happily amazed. From what I understand the key to survival is maintaining hydration and electrolyte balance during the illness. That's relatively easy to do here in the US; in Africa, it's downright impossible for the average patient. That and spending $500,000+ per patient. If Ebola ever goes mainstream in the US, you can bet that mortality rate will begin to approach what it is in Africa. Imagine if say 100,000 people got Ebola here. That would be over 50 billion spent trying to treat them. That sounds like a lot of cases, but with 319 million people in the country, it is a very small percentage still. Plus, most hospitals are not set up to treat it, as we have seen in Dallas. If it got to that point, infections would continue to spread. The economy would collapse trying to treat people. When there are only 1 or 2 cases, it is easy to throw everything you have at it and survive. Not so much when there are 100,000 or 200,000 cases, or even 1,000 for that matter. most of those costs are on ramp up and a bunch more are related to research and experimentation. those actual costs would come down fairly quickly. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 9:01:51 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
most of those costs are on ramp up and a bunch more are related to research and experimentation. those actual costs would come down fairly quickly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So of the eight folks treated for Ebola in the US during this scare, only Duncan has died, correct? By my figurin', that ain't 70%. Western medicine's pretty cool. Duncan was 13 days from initial hospital visit to death, and was symptomatic a couple days before. Vinson & Pham probably entered isolation at an earlier phase than Duncan. Pham is on day 10 of hospitalization, and Vinson is on day 6. I still wouldn't be doing the dancing banana yet, since we don't yet know how the two nurses are doing. There's a lot of crap, so to speak, that could still happen. If good care here in the US can actually bring EVD CFR down to 12.5%, I'll be happily amazed. From what I understand the key to survival is maintaining hydration and electrolyte balance during the illness. That's relatively easy to do here in the US; in Africa, it's downright impossible for the average patient. That and spending $500,000+ per patient. If Ebola ever goes mainstream in the US, you can bet that mortality rate will begin to approach what it is in Africa. Imagine if say 100,000 people got Ebola here. That would be over 50 billion spent trying to treat them. That sounds like a lot of cases, but with 319 million people in the country, it is a very small percentage still. Plus, most hospitals are not set up to treat it, as we have seen in Dallas. If it got to that point, infections would continue to spread. The economy would collapse trying to treat people. When there are only 1 or 2 cases, it is easy to throw everything you have at it and survive. Not so much when there are 100,000 or 200,000 cases, or even 1,000 for that matter. most of those costs are on ramp up and a bunch more are related to research and experimentation. those actual costs would come down fairly quickly. Not when you only have 4 centers in the country set up to properly treat diseases like Ebola. How many patients max do you think those 4 centers can treat? Probably not more then a few hundred at most. Most of the treatment would then be left to other hospitals around the nation. We saw what happened when the average hospital tried to treat Ebola. Either billions would need to be spent very rapidly trying to upgrade hospitals to treat it, or more likely, the government will set up mobile treatment camps like they have in Africa where you go if you get the disease. I'm sure the mortality rates will not be as low as 12.5%. I'm betting it will be closer to the 70-80% rate we are seeing in Africa. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 9:04:13 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not when you only have 4 centers in the country set up to properly treat diseases like Ebola. How many patients max do you think those 4 centers can treat? Probably not more then a few hundred at most. Most of the treatment would then be left to other hospitals around the nation. We saw what happened when the average hospital tried to treat Ebola. Either billions would need to be spent very rapidly trying to upgrade hospitals to treat it, or more likely, the government will set up mobile treatment camps like they have in Africa where you go if you get the disease. I'm sure the mortality rates will not be as low as 12.5%. thats not entirely accurate. there are many centers capable of treating Ebola. the negative pressure, moon suits and BL4 suites are nice but not required. with proper training and precautions a standard iso unit will suffice. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 9:50:06 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
thats not entirely accurate. there are many centers capable of treating Ebola. the negative pressure, moon suits and BL4 suites are nice but not required. with proper training and precautions a standard iso unit will suffice. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not when you only have 4 centers in the country set up to properly treat diseases like Ebola. How many patients max do you think those 4 centers can treat? Probably not more then a few hundred at most. Most of the treatment would then be left to other hospitals around the nation. We saw what happened when the average hospital tried to treat Ebola. Either billions would need to be spent very rapidly trying to upgrade hospitals to treat it, or more likely, the government will set up mobile treatment camps like they have in Africa where you go if you get the disease. I'm sure the mortality rates will not be as low as 12.5%. thats not entirely accurate. there are many centers capable of treating Ebola. the negative pressure, moon suits and BL4 suites are nice but not required. with proper training and precautions a standard iso unit will suffice. I agree that it may be incrementally more expensive, especially at startup, but most US hospitals are designed to treat very sick people. Aside from the extra threat of spread and need for better infection control (PPE, staff education, staffing levels to fit), full-tilt critical care is already incredibly expensive. Just one example: for trauma patients in disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC), one little glass vial of Novoseven we crack open costs nearly $10,000. Stripped down to just the room rental without any extras of labs/studies/procedures/physician professional fees, the meter on an average ICU bed ticks over $1000/day. My youngest son spent just one overnight in the NICU with a basic evaluation, labs, and antibiotics, without a need for a ventilator. IIRC, charges were somewhere between $15k-$20k. That was separate from my wife's bill for her perinatal care, which included routine visits to high risk perinatalogists and unexpected OR time. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 9:51:41 AM EDT
[#8]
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In one of the vice documentaries where they were interviewing the head Doc, he made specific mention that they were unable to monitor fluid in/out, or electrolytes. Oh god, I would hate to have to get I/O's on an ebola pt...... 
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Posted: 10/21/2014 9:58:45 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I agree that it may be incrementally more expensive, especially at startup, but most US hospitals are designed to treat very sick people. Aside from the extra threat of spread and need for better infection control (PPE, staff education, staffing levels to fit), full-tilt critical care is already incredibly expensive. Just one example: for trauma patients in disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC), one little glass vial of Novoseven we crack open costs nearly $10,000. Stripped down to just the room rental without any extras of labs/studies/procedures/physician professional fees, the meter on an average ICU bed ticks over $1000/day. My youngest son spent just one overnight in the NICU with a basic evaluation, labs, and antibiotics, without a need for a ventilator. IIRC, charges were somewhere between $15k-$20k. That was separate from my wife's bill for her perinatal care, which included routine visits to high risk perinatalogists and unexpected OR time. yep but the fact is they will be treated. they can't be sent home due to no insurance due to public health issues. in reality it doesn't cost the hospital that much for the room or equipment as that is already purchased. the drugs, supplies and personel are the expense. While the "bill" may be high the actual real cost of the care is about 20-40% of that generally. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:04:40 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
thats not entirely accurate. there are many centers capable of treating Ebola. the negative pressure, moon suits and BL4 suites are nice but not required. with proper training and precautions a standard iso unit will suffice. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not when you only have 4 centers in the country set up to properly treat diseases like Ebola. How many patients max do you think those 4 centers can treat? Probably not more then a few hundred at most. Most of the treatment would then be left to other hospitals around the nation. We saw what happened when the average hospital tried to treat Ebola. Either billions would need to be spent very rapidly trying to upgrade hospitals to treat it, or more likely, the government will set up mobile treatment camps like they have in Africa where you go if you get the disease. I'm sure the mortality rates will not be as low as 12.5%. thats not entirely accurate. there are many centers capable of treating Ebola. the negative pressure, moon suits and BL4 suites are nice but not required. with proper training and precautions a standard iso unit will suffice. I still think it would be a better expenditure of money to right now dump billions if needed into getting an Ebola vaccine ready to go, then to dump trillions into caring for patients once it is too late and potentially becomes widespread. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:08:49 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh god, I would hate to have to get I/O's on an ebola pt...... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In one of the vice documentaries where they were interviewing the head Doc, he made specific mention that they were unable to monitor fluid in/out, or electrolytes. Oh god, I would hate to have to get I/O's on an ebola pt...... "Lemme see here... I can hear the vomiting from outside the room. Let's call that 95 decibels. Stool output, looks to be about 1 fathom based on high water mark on the wall. Urine output 872.5ml by Foley catheter." Actually, I'm suspecting someone in the worst throes of ebola in a U.S. ICU would also have a rectal tube for measurement and sanitation along with an NGT/OGT to suction. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:11:05 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yep but the fact is they will be treated. they can't be sent home due to no insurance due to public health issues. in reality it doesn't cost the hospital that much for the room or equipment as that is already purchased. the drugs, supplies and personel are the expense. While the "bill" may be high the actual real cost of the care is about 20-40% of that generally. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I agree that it may be incrementally more expensive, especially at startup, but most US hospitals are designed to treat very sick people. Aside from the extra threat of spread and need for better infection control (PPE, staff education, staffing levels to fit), full-tilt critical care is already incredibly expensive. Just one example: for trauma patients in disseminated intravascular coagulation (DIC), one little glass vial of Novoseven we crack open costs nearly $10,000. Stripped down to just the room rental without any extras of labs/studies/procedures/physician professional fees, the meter on an average ICU bed ticks over $1000/day. My youngest son spent just one overnight in the NICU with a basic evaluation, labs, and antibiotics, without a need for a ventilator. IIRC, charges were somewhere between $15k-$20k. That was separate from my wife's bill for her perinatal care, which included routine visits to high risk perinatalogists and unexpected OR time. yep but the fact is they will be treated. they can't be sent home due to no insurance due to public health issues. in reality it doesn't cost the hospital that much for the room or equipment as that is already purchased. the drugs, supplies and personel are the expense. While the "bill" may be high the actual real cost of the care is about 20-40% of that generally. That's not far off from what happens anyway. In a society of EMTALA where nobody gets refused emergency care, and working in a hospital with a high percentage of no-pay patients, that part is business as usual for me. I end up having to write a decent portion of my professional fees as uncollectible, have to give a certain amount of predetermined charity care, but get to pay the full price ticket for my own healthcare at the hospital. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:19:08 AM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:22:47 AM EDT
[#14]
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This is the medical director of our Ebola team in this video. No man should cry in public. Ever. seriously 
but good on him for doing what is right |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:24:24 AM EDT
[#15]
Not sure if one of the docs can chime in on this, but I've read a few times in various places that they key to beating Ebola once you're infected is treating the symptoms - staying hydrated, electrolytes, etc. Reading The Hot Zone, and other stuff about the effects of hemorraghic fever, I can't see how just staying hydrated helps all that much when the virus is basically causing your cells to dissolve. Does the body start fighting back effectively against the virus at some point as long as dehydration doesn't kill the patient first?
I'm sure it's a complicated answer, but dumb it down for me. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:24:51 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is the medical director of our Ebola team in this video. No man should cry in public. Ever. I hope that his hands were clean. Keep those possibly contaminated fingers away from eyes/nose/mouth. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:25:17 AM EDT
[#17]
Bio- defence in this siuation has been a joke.
From 2001 to 2011 over $60 Billion was spent. I don't see the health care system anywhere near ready to handle a pandemic of any type. Here is an interesting article from 2011. http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110907/full/477150a.html |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:32:33 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I hope that his hands were clean. Keep those possibly contaminated fingers away from eyes/nose/mouth. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is the medical director of our Ebola team in this video. No man should cry in public. Ever. I hope that his hands were clean. Keep those possibly contaminated fingers away from eyes/nose/mouth. Funny. I noticed that as well. I was an RN in the MICU when he was an intern. He is very passionate about medicine. That said........get control of yourself and your emotions. Oh, and we didn't volunteer, we were told to attend training, as this is now part of our job. I am ok with this, but as for volunteering, I don't recall that conversation.
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:40:29 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure if one of the docs can chime in on this, but I've read a few times in various places that they key to beating Ebola once you're infected is treating the symptoms - staying hydrated, electrolytes, etc. Reading The Hot Zone, and other stuff about the effects of hemorraghic fever, I can't see how just staying hydrated helps all that much when the virus is basically causing your cells to dissolve. Does the body start fighting back effectively against the virus at some point as long as dehydration doesn't kill the patient first? I'm sure it's a complicated answer, but dumb it down for me. In broad strokes, it's "supportive care." I'll just hit a few major points. The goal is to keep the body from dying long enough to allow it to self-repair. There are some drugs that can help with the bleeding/clotting disruption, but they are also supportive. Staying hydrated with good electrolyte balance is key for a number of reasons. Severe electrolyte imbalance disrupts nerve and muscle activity, which may include the heart. With severe abnormalities and acid-base disturbance, enzymes throughout the body cease functioning. Hydration helps mitigate the effects of high fever. A modestly elevated temperature may enhance enzyme activity, but above a certain temperature the proteins of the enzymes denature, or lose their structure and function. Without adequate hydration, the kidneys are also unable to clear the massive amounts of waste and toxic substances in the bloodstream. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:50:00 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bio- defence in this siuation has been a joke. From 2001 to 2011 over $60 Billion was spent. I don't see the health care system anywhere near ready to handle a pandemic of any type. Here is an interesting article from 2011. http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110907/full/477150a.html the problem with bio defense is in the grand scheme of national threats it has always been considered low. it has always been considered a local/regional issue as we don't have many highly infectious lethal diseases here in the grand scheme of things. the few cases a year we do have are dealt with within the local healthcare system ata county and state level. The Feds responsibility here is really more of a data collection and sharing portal as well as funding research. Bio gear degrades with time. it's not something you can stockpile and expect to pull out of storage 20 years later and use. suits dry rot, drugs expire etc. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:53:25 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
the problem with bio defense is in the grand scheme of national threats it has always been considered low. it has always been considered a local/regional issue as we don't have many highly infectious lethal diseases here in the grand scheme of things. the few cases a year we do have are dealt with within the local healthcare system ata county and state level. The Feds responsibility here is really more of a data collection and sharing portal as well as funding research. Bio gear degrades with time. it's not something you can stockpile and expect to pull out of storage 20 years later and use. suits dry rot, drugs expire etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Bio- defence in this siuation has been a joke. From 2001 to 2011 over $60 Billion was spent. I don't see the health care system anywhere near ready to handle a pandemic of any type. Here is an interesting article from 2011. http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110907/full/477150a.html the problem with bio defense is in the grand scheme of national threats it has always been considered low. it has always been considered a local/regional issue as we don't have many highly infectious lethal diseases here in the grand scheme of things. the few cases a year we do have are dealt with within the local healthcare system ata county and state level. The Feds responsibility here is really more of a data collection and sharing portal as well as funding research. Bio gear degrades with time. it's not something you can stockpile and expect to pull out of storage 20 years later and use. suits dry rot, drugs expire etc. Would this be the appropriate time for me to rant a little about the national shift away from stockpiles to "just-in-time" drug/supply production and delivery? 
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Posted: 10/21/2014 10:55:53 AM EDT
[#22]
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Would this be the appropriate time for me to rant a little about the national shift away from stockpiles to "just-in-time" drug/supply production and delivery? yep. frankly the JIT delivery model is a bad thing for most things in general. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 11:05:48 AM EDT
[#23]
JIT supply chain ...
Good News: There are unconfirmed reports of .22LR piling up on shelves of Walmarts around the country! 
... as neckbeards shift their efforts to hoarding the Ebola vaccine. 
Bad News: We are all going to die. 
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Posted: 10/21/2014 11:09:36 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
JIT supply chain ... Good News: There are unconfirmed reports of .22LR piling up on shelves of Walmarts around the country!
... as neckbeards shift their efforts to hoarding the Ebola vaccine.
Bad News: We are all going to die. Quote HistoryQuoted:
JIT supply chain ... Good News: There are unconfirmed reports of .22LR piling up on shelves of Walmarts around the country!
... as neckbeards shift their efforts to hoarding the Ebola vaccine.
Bad News: We are all going to die. Quoted:
Quoted:
Would this be the appropriate time for me to rant a little about the national shift away from stockpiles to "just-in-time" drug/supply production and delivery? yep. frankly the JIT delivery model is a bad thing for most things in general. Someone trips over an extension cord in Naples, and the entire US faces a shortage of epinephrine because the production line hiccups. It makes middle management look like rock stars in cost containment, and gives six sigma black belts some bullets for the PowerPoint presentation. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 11:12:12 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
JIT supply chain ... Good News: There are unconfirmed reports of .22LR piling up on shelves of Walmarts around the country!
... as neckbeards shift their efforts to hoarding the Ebola vaccine.
Bad News: We are all going to die. Expect runs on bleach, wetwipes, disposable surgical gloves, masks, etc. I should order another thousand gloves from Harbor Freight. I am down to less than 200. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 11:16:48 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In broad strokes, it's "supportive care." I'll just hit a few major points. The goal is to keep the body from dying long enough to allow it to self-repair. There are some drugs that can help with the bleeding/clotting disruption, but they are also supportive. Staying hydrated with good electrolyte balance is key for a number of reasons. Severe electrolyte imbalance disrupts nerve and muscle activity, which may include the heart. With severe abnormalities and acid-base disturbance, enzymes throughout the body cease functioning. Hydration helps mitigate the effects of high fever. A modestly elevated temperature may enhance enzyme activity, but above a certain temperature the proteins of the enzymes denature, or lose their structure and function. Without adequate hydration, the kidneys are also unable to clear the massive amounts of waste and toxic substances in the bloodstream. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not sure if one of the docs can chime in on this, but I've read a few times in various places that they key to beating Ebola once you're infected is treating the symptoms - staying hydrated, electrolytes, etc. Reading The Hot Zone, and other stuff about the effects of hemorraghic fever, I can't see how just staying hydrated helps all that much when the virus is basically causing your cells to dissolve. Does the body start fighting back effectively against the virus at some point as long as dehydration doesn't kill the patient first? I'm sure it's a complicated answer, but dumb it down for me. In broad strokes, it's "supportive care." I'll just hit a few major points. The goal is to keep the body from dying long enough to allow it to self-repair. There are some drugs that can help with the bleeding/clotting disruption, but they are also supportive. Staying hydrated with good electrolyte balance is key for a number of reasons. Severe electrolyte imbalance disrupts nerve and muscle activity, which may include the heart. With severe abnormalities and acid-base disturbance, enzymes throughout the body cease functioning. Hydration helps mitigate the effects of high fever. A modestly elevated temperature may enhance enzyme activity, but above a certain temperature the proteins of the enzymes denature, or lose their structure and function. Without adequate hydration, the kidneys are also unable to clear the massive amounts of waste and toxic substances in the bloodstream. So that really is the trick. Pretty amazing that the body can combat a virus like Ebola if you just give it a fighting chance. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 11:34:03 AM EDT
[#27]
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So that really is the trick. Pretty amazing that the body can combat a virus like Ebola if you just give it a fighting chance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not sure if one of the docs can chime in on this, but I've read a few times in various places that they key to beating Ebola once you're infected is treating the symptoms - staying hydrated, electrolytes, etc. Reading The Hot Zone, and other stuff about the effects of hemorraghic fever, I can't see how just staying hydrated helps all that much when the virus is basically causing your cells to dissolve. Does the body start fighting back effectively against the virus at some point as long as dehydration doesn't kill the patient first? I'm sure it's a complicated answer, but dumb it down for me. In broad strokes, it's "supportive care." I'll just hit a few major points. The goal is to keep the body from dying long enough to allow it to self-repair. There are some drugs that can help with the bleeding/clotting disruption, but they are also supportive. Staying hydrated with good electrolyte balance is key for a number of reasons. Severe electrolyte imbalance disrupts nerve and muscle activity, which may include the heart. With severe abnormalities and acid-base disturbance, enzymes throughout the body cease functioning. Hydration helps mitigate the effects of high fever. A modestly elevated temperature may enhance enzyme activity, but above a certain temperature the proteins of the enzymes denature, or lose their structure and function. Without adequate hydration, the kidneys are also unable to clear the massive amounts of waste and toxic substances in the bloodstream. So that really is the trick. Pretty amazing that the body can combat a virus like Ebola if you just give it a fighting chance. The human body is fascinating. One one hand, it can be incredibly resilient and bounce back from dire insults. The same body can trip and fall, hit the head on the coffee table, and never wake up. If I could find a way to have medicine fight physiology and win every time, I could write a book and retire. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 11:34:41 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So that really is the trick. Pretty amazing that the body can combat a virus like Ebola if you just give it a fighting chance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not sure if one of the docs can chime in on this, but I've read a few times in various places that they key to beating Ebola once you're infected is treating the symptoms - staying hydrated, electrolytes, etc. Reading The Hot Zone, and other stuff about the effects of hemorraghic fever, I can't see how just staying hydrated helps all that much when the virus is basically causing your cells to dissolve. Does the body start fighting back effectively against the virus at some point as long as dehydration doesn't kill the patient first? I'm sure it's a complicated answer, but dumb it down for me. In broad strokes, it's "supportive care." I'll just hit a few major points. The goal is to keep the body from dying long enough to allow it to self-repair. There are some drugs that can help with the bleeding/clotting disruption, but they are also supportive. Staying hydrated with good electrolyte balance is key for a number of reasons. Severe electrolyte imbalance disrupts nerve and muscle activity, which may include the heart. With severe abnormalities and acid-base disturbance, enzymes throughout the body cease functioning. Hydration helps mitigate the effects of high fever. A modestly elevated temperature may enhance enzyme activity, but above a certain temperature the proteins of the enzymes denature, or lose their structure and function. Without adequate hydration, the kidneys are also unable to clear the massive amounts of waste and toxic substances in the bloodstream. So that really is the trick. Pretty amazing that the body can combat a virus like Ebola if you just give it a fighting chance. There was a fascinating Radiolab on the treatment of symptomatic rabies infection (Milwaukee Protocol) using an induced coma. Basically, the only hope is to keep the body alive long enough for the antibodies to catch up. http://www.radiolab.org/story/rodney-versus-death/ |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 1:52:45 PM EDT
[#29]
(.gov)
so....maybe we should at least pretend to check for ebola.... U.S. restricts entrants from Ebola-hit nations to five airports(Reuters) - Travelers entering the United States whose trips originated in Ebola-stricken Liberia, Sierra Leone or Guinea must fly into one of five airports that have enhanced screening in place, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security said on Tuesday. The restrictions, to take effect on Wednesday, will subject affected travelers to temperature tests among other protocols at New York's JFK, New Jersey's Newark, Washington Dulles, Atlanta and Chicago's O'Hare international airports. These airports account for 94 percent of the flights to the United States from the Ebola-hit nations. The restrictions apply to all travelers, including U.S. citizens and those who would have arrived by land or sea [/span] so they are going to restrict passage into the U.S. via the airports? |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 2:02:33 PM EDT
[#30]
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/fear-ebola-outbreak-make-nation-turn-science
Some Fear Ebola Outbreak Could Make Nation Turn to Science There is a deep-seated fear among some Americans that an Ebola outbreak could make the country turn to science. In interviews conducted across the nation, leading anti-science activists expressed their concern that the American people, wracked with anxiety over the possible spread of the virus, might desperately look to science to save the day. “It’s a very human reaction,” said Harland Dorrinson, a prominent anti-science activist from Springfield, Missouri. “If you put them under enough stress, perfectly rational people will panic and start believing in science.” Additionally, he worries about a “slippery slope” situation, “in which a belief in science leads to a belief in math, which in turn fosters a dangerous dependence on facts.” At the end of the day, though, Dorrinson hopes that such a doomsday scenario will not come to pass. “Time and time again through history, Americans have been exposed to science and refused to accept it,” he said. “I pray that this time will be no different.” |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 2:08:59 PM EDT
[#31]
Study Predicts 220K W. African Ebola Cases by Years' End
A recently published statistical analysis funded by US Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) predicts that there will be approximately 230,000 Ebola infected people in the West African countries of Liberia and Sierra Leone by December 31, 2014. Ebola |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 2:09:14 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/fear-ebola-outbreak-make-nation-turn-science Some Fear Ebola Outbreak Could Make Nation Turn to Science There is a deep-seated fear among some Americans that an Ebola outbreak could make the country turn to science. In interviews conducted across the nation, leading anti-science activists expressed their concern that the American people, wracked with anxiety over the possible spread of the virus, might desperately look to science to save the day. “It’s a very human reaction,” said Harland Dorrinson, a prominent anti-science activist from Springfield, Missouri. “If you put them under enough stress, perfectly rational people will panic and start believing in science.” Additionally, he worries about a “slippery slope” situation, “in which a belief in science leads to a belief in math, which in turn fosters a dangerous dependence on facts.” At the end of the day, though, Dorrinson hopes that such a doomsday scenario will not come to pass. “Time and time again through history, Americans have been exposed to science and refused to accept it,” he said. “I pray that this time will be no different.” Don't trouble me with facts. I prefer slavish reliance on opinion and emotion. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 2:28:58 PM EDT
[#33]
stupidity like this is why we have the panic issues ....
https://theusindependent.com/ebola-for-the-informed/ just a little bit on "Dr Rima".... Among the more notable "matchbox diploma" holders are Rima Laibow and Gary Null. Laibow, who is legitimate psychiatrist, obtained her naturopathic degree via a correspondence school and refers to herself as a naturopathic doctor. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 2:35:16 PM EDT
[#34]
Wow. It would boost the economy if it ONLY took out the FSA
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Posted: 10/21/2014 2:35:52 PM EDT
[#35]
DAY 31 SINCE FLYING -- No one on the plane was infected. DAY 27 SINCE SHOWING SYMPTOMS -- No one was infected while he was asymptomatic. DAY 25 SINCE FIRST HOSPITAL VISIT -- No one in the ER was infected. DAY 23 SINCE TRANSPORT IN AMBERLAMPS -- No family members were infected (which is amazing). DAY 13 SINCE DEATH -- 2 cases reported in hospital. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 2:35:55 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
stupidity like this is why we have the panic issues .... https://theusindependent.com/ebola-for-the-informed/ just a little bit on "Dr Rima".... Among the more notable "matchbox diploma" holders are Rima Laibow and Gary Null. Laibow, who is legitimate psychiatrist, obtained her naturopathic degree via a correspondence school and refers to herself as a naturopathic doctor. Seems legit. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 4:13:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Air Travel from Ebola hot zones restricted to 5 airports. Half measures instead of leadership. Thanks Obola.
http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/10/ebola-in-the-us/381575/ |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 4:19:55 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
[div style='font-family: tahoma, arial;font-size: 8pt;'][div style='font-family: tahoma, arial;font-size: 8pt;'][div style='font-family: tahoma, arial;font-size: 8pt;']DAY 31 SINCE FLYING -- No one on the plane was infected. DAY 27 SINCE SHOWING SYMPTOMS -- No one was infected while he was asymptomatic. DAY 25 SINCE FIRST HOSPITAL VISIT -- No one in the ER was infected. DAY 23 SINCE TRANSPORT IN AMBERLAMPS -- No family members were infected (which is amazing). DAY 13 SINCE DEATH -- 2 cases reported in hospital. 51 now people released from quarantine. 116 remain under observation. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 4:21:42 PM EDT
[#39]
There was a man from Pensacola
Who had a bad case of Ebola He would entertain us And bleed from his anus By playing like Al Di Meola |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 4:23:43 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Study Predicts 220K W. African Ebola Cases by Years' End A recently published statistical analysis funded by US Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) predicts that there will be approximately 230,000 Ebola infected people in the West African countries of Liberia and Sierra Leone by December 31, 2014. Ebola And what is GD's prediction ? |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 4:26:52 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And what is GD's prediction ? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Study Predicts 220K W. African Ebola Cases by Years' End A recently published statistical analysis funded by US Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) predicts that there will be approximately 230,000 Ebola infected people in the West African countries of Liberia and Sierra Leone by December 31, 2014. Ebola And what is GD's prediction ? 10 billion! |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 4:29:14 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And what is GD's prediction ? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Study Predicts 220K W. African Ebola Cases by Years' End A recently published statistical analysis funded by US Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) predicts that there will be approximately 230,000 Ebola infected people in the West African countries of Liberia and Sierra Leone by December 31, 2014. Ebola And what is GD's prediction ? PANIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted: 10/21/2014 4:29:30 PM EDT
[#43]
i think liberia has no clue how many they currently have or have had in the past. i don't think will know the exact numbers even after it's over.
anything at this point for them is pure guess work. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 4:39:13 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
i think liberia has no clue how many they currently have or have had in the past. i don't think will know the exact numbers even after it's over. anything at this point for them is pure guess work. Get us within a 1/4 million. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 4:41:08 PM EDT
[#45]
It's not a travel ban, but now all passengers who've been through the infected region must arrive at one of five airports. (This won't be official for 2 more days when it is published in the Federal Register).
https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2014-25358.pdf |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 4:43:08 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
[div style='font-family: tahoma, arial;font-size: 8pt;'][div style='font-family: tahoma, arial;font-size: 8pt;'][div style='font-family: tahoma, arial;font-size: 8pt;']DAY 31 SINCE FLYING -- No one on the plane was infected. DAY 27 SINCE SHOWING SYMPTOMS -- No one was infected while he was asymptomatic. DAY 25 SINCE FIRST HOSPITAL VISIT -- No one in the ER was infected. DAY 23 SINCE TRANSPORT IN AMBERLAMPS -- No family members were infected (which is amazing). DAY 13 SINCE DEATH -- 2 cases reported in hospital. I was getting worried for a bit but this makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 4:53:04 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was getting worried for a bit but this makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
[div style='font-family: tahoma, arial;font-size: 8pt;'][div style='font-family: tahoma, arial;font-size: 8pt;'][div style='font-family: tahoma, arial;font-size: 8pt;']DAY 31 SINCE FLYING -- No one on the plane was infected. DAY 27 SINCE SHOWING SYMPTOMS -- No one was infected while he was asymptomatic. DAY 25 SINCE FIRST HOSPITAL VISIT -- No one in the ER was infected. DAY 23 SINCE TRANSPORT IN AMBERLAMPS -- No family members were infected (which is amazing). DAY 13 SINCE DEATH -- 2 cases reported in hospital. I was getting worried for a bit but this makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside That's the Ebola! |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 4:58:57 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
10 billion! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Study Predicts 220K W. African Ebola Cases by Years' End A recently published statistical analysis funded by US Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) predicts that there will be approximately 230,000 Ebola infected people in the West African countries of Liberia and Sierra Leone by December 31, 2014. Ebola And what is GD's prediction ? 10 billion!  " />
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Posted: 10/21/2014 5:03:29 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: most of those costs are on ramp up and a bunch more are related to research and experimentation. those actual costs would come down fairly quickly. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So of the eight folks treated for Ebola in the US during this scare, only Duncan has died, correct? By my figurin', that ain't 70%. Western medicine's pretty cool. Duncan was 13 days from initial hospital visit to death, and was symptomatic a couple days before. Vinson & Pham probably entered isolation at an earlier phase than Duncan. Pham is on day 10 of hospitalization, and Vinson is on day 6. I still wouldn't be doing the dancing banana yet, since we don't yet know how the two nurses are doing. There's a lot of crap, so to speak, that could still happen. If good care here in the US can actually bring EVD CFR down to 12.5%, I'll be happily amazed. From what I understand the key to survival is maintaining hydration and electrolyte balance during the illness. That's relatively easy to do here in the US; in Africa, it's downright impossible for the average patient. That and spending $500,000+ per patient. If Ebola ever goes mainstream in the US, you can bet that mortality rate will begin to approach what it is in Africa. Imagine if say 100,000 people got Ebola here. That would be over 50 billion spent trying to treat them. That sounds like a lot of cases, but with 319 million people in the country, it is a very small percentage still. Plus, most hospitals are not set up to treat it, as we have seen in Dallas. If it got to that point, infections would continue to spread. The economy would collapse trying to treat people. When there are only 1 or 2 cases, it is easy to throw everything you have at it and survive. Not so much when there are 100,000 or 200,000 cases, or even 1,000 for that matter. most of those costs are on ramp up and a bunch more are related to research and experimentation. those actual costs would come down fairly quickly. |
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Posted: 10/21/2014 5:15:54 PM EDT
[#50]
The Black Plague had monumental changes on the world, boosting the Renaissance era into areas that it probably would have never achieved without a similar devastating population eradication.
This really makes you wonder if someone targeted Africa for population control, considering Al Gore's comments earlier this year (January). If it's coincidence that ebola broke out this year, it sure is convenient. Al Gore on African Population Problem |
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