Please tell me why I'm a sucker for buying handguns that I'm most proficient at shooting?

If the alternative is "We suck, but you love us" (Hi, SigArms!), I'll take the Hk every time.

I don't understand the complaints about the mag release. You do not actuate it with your thumbs, its meant to be actuated with your index finger or middle finger.
Using either your index or middle finger, you dont have to reposition the pistol at all and its lightning fast.

USP Tactical, USP, Elites---  P7M8/M10/M13

According to Hitler, the Glocks are German too.



 

I have midget hands and find the H&K style mag release to be the best fit for me.  I have over 60k rounds through one of my USP, and currently own a P7, (2) USP and a P30.  I also have a couple of Wilson 1911's.  I shoot the H&K's the best. Fast women, beautiful cars, H&K's guns, fine cigars, a good scotch.  Need I say more to those are of a lesser mindset?


Plus, I enjoy people knowing that I truly am better than them for shooting an h&k

A friend of mine posted this at another forum and I'd like to share it with you gentlemen:


Some reasons why HK pistols (and HK firearms in general) are more expensive than their competitors.

1. Most are designed, built and tested to NATO MIL specs (ACC-225), not commercial specs. NATO specs includes tests not conducted by many commercial makers such as drop tests, obstructed bore tests, extreme temps, ice, static sand, OTB, elevated/depressed, etc.

2. All (100%) of HK firearms are test fired and zeroed at the factory. In some companies only a % are tested.

3. HK materials (steel, barrel, etc.) are of the highest quality available and it shows in long-term or worst case scenarios. The superior barrel performance is a good example, though you may never see it in casual use.

4. HK pistols are not assembled by armorers’ students and then sold to customers. Some companies have been known to do so.

5. The average German worker is paid at a far higher rate than the equivalent US worker. Part of the reasons why includes the mandatory training they must receive and tests they must pass before receiving the position. The cost of living in Germany is also higher and HK contributes to a substantial “Pensioner Fund” for its retirees. Many also work at the same company for decades and not uncommon are 40 year employees!) and therefore rise high on the pay scale for their extensive hard-earned skill and experience.

6. HK barrels are made by a cold hammer forged process using a material that is unique to HK guns. Many barrels get special HK-unique steps added such as a tapered, poly, hybrid poly bore profile or induction hardening and all long-gun barrels are straightened. As an example, Stelite liners are not used in HK MG barrels – they are simply not needed and perform as well or better.

7. Compare the polymer molding and machining of say an HK P30 and a SIG P229. It is RARE to see machining marks on an HK.

8. HK rigorously tests their products to destruction in a "Firing Lab" manned with very senior test personnel before the design is frozen. This reduces the incidence of post-release issues. HK also takes and test its products at remote environmental test facilities to include desert (Yuma Proving Grounds, Saudi Arabia), arctic (Norway, Alaska), jungle (Brunei, Panama). That costs BIG bucks but pays off in hard core performance.

9. HK guns are imported for the most part (or the parts used to assemble them in NH) are imported. That results in mandatory FET, freight and exchange rate subsidies being added and passed on to the customer. HK as a German gun maker and importer they also have to comply with stringent export controls and that too costs money, which gets passed along in sale prices.

10. The cost of the production tooling (and materials) used by HK to produce, assemble and QA product is high as it includes QA tests and steps not conducted by many other makers. HK cut its teeth as a mass producer and still today builds the production tooling with that in mind – high volumes with a lot of automation. That tooling and gauging costs money as does the high hourly rates of the skilled workers and the additional time required to conduct it.

11. 10-20% of HK’s annual operating budget is spent on its extensive “Technique” departments to include Design, Prototype Fabrication and the Firing Lab. These are the highest paid, most skilled workers at HK and that costs money as well. They are best of breed and always have many more projects up in the air then you might think, or know of (Phased Plasma Rifle in the 80 watt Range).

12. HK places itself purposely in the “higher end” of the market. Like BMW and Mercedes HK knows it rates are higher and always will be compared to say Colt, S&W, Beretta, etc. So they go after superior performance and quality at a higher price point to fewer purchasers versus a cheaper, lower quality product to more buyers.

13. @ 15% of HK annual revenue is reinvested in new products, and infrastructure. While that may not seem like a lot it is and the state of the factory at in Oberndorf shows it. Look at the state of their competitors factories. There are few that compare to HK GmbH in the eyes of those who have been to many others. HK spends the revenue it makes off of both commercial and Government sales on new product so in a way the US commercial buyer who purchases an HK45 pistol helps fund the development of the MG4 LMG or XM25.

14. HK builds much of the weapon parts in house to maintain quality control. While cheaper subs are available one loses some control in doing so. HK’s goal has always been to minimize cost but maintain quality and to do so it keeps many items in house that in many others companies go to the higher bidder (magazines, small piece parts, etc.). HK also has some of the very best MIM and molding capabilities and can thus up the quality of their product by using their own, superior product.

15. Like HK, HK’s subs are of a higher quality for the same reasons and with the same end results. You buy the very best frame mold in Germany, it will cost you but the end product is superior.

16. In a gun like the GMG, there are no parts that require hand fitting. This requires that each and every raw material and finished part, and each tool that fabricates the part, is dimensionally and exactly the same and maintained the same at all time by constant checks by skilled personnel with high dollar measuring devices and gauges. Again something you may never see but it insures when you replace a part it both fits and works w/o modifications.

17. HK has voluntarily developed, tested and included in their product unique features like USP firing mode modularity, MK23 barrel O-rings, special high performance finishes, unique G36/HK416 gas systems, drop-in LEM trigger systems, side-loading 40mm grenade launchers, GMG’s with extruded aluminum receivers and HK211’s with Ti receivers, unique cartridges for things like MP7 and P46, etc. HK also makes over 100 models of HK firearms currently and 1000’s of modular variants for users the world over speaking many languages, which costs money to build, inventory, document and record these countless production variations.



G3Kurz

 

SigArms?

This thread makes me want to buy another HK

i only have 1 H&K.  i figure a MK23 will be the only H&K ill ever need.

Most HK "hate" is nothing more than hyperbole and bullshit.  Anything that has a following will invariably get some blowback.

The mag release is fucking fine and I've never had any trouble switching back and forth between styles on the same range trip.  Maybe I don't "train" or "run my guns" enough, but I managed to figure it out.  

I've had a couple HKs over the years, and I've sold all but one.  They just don't "do it" for me I guess, but to say they aren't a high quality weapon is pretty spurious.

HKPro FTW! I was on there long before ARFCOM. I have learned so much from reading G3Kurz's posts.

I KB'd an HK .45 tacticool  


True story.  They fixed it, new frame and barrel $400

I love my HK's I've carried my P2K for years and both my ICE and BP buddies carry them.  I had Bill Springfield do an action job on mine and my BP buddies can use the Brian Enos trigger grease and get a decent trigger in little time.  This was the particular gun that Marty Hayes used to see how many miss fires it would have  during two courses I took at FAS.  He did it for the whole class and it was one of two HK's.  Most of the guns used were Glocks, of course 3 High End 1911's were used.
Mine was one of two guns that had only two failures and both were caused by Federal ammo with high primers.  The other gun to go all the way was a Glock 19 4th Gen.
The other H K was a 45 ACP but I can't remember which.  It did have a failure to feed during a phase of the night course and a live situation would have been tough to live through.

It is 2014 and people are still saying this shit?

Please do tell me how HK forced the AWB down our throats...

HK actually fought against that sporter clause bullshit.

I am requoting this for truth, and my original statement is still true

Yes, People who shoot H&Ks are, in fact, better.

And more bullshit getting spread around.  The USP does not come with any for of night-sights, PERIOD!  Furthermore, German has a ban on anything nuclear/tritium, so they can't place good tritium sights on their pistols that get exported from Germany.  What HK is doing now is they are sending pistol without sights (the new VP9) and placing tritiums on them when they get to the U.S, which cost just a hair more.

Federal Ammuniction company has a USP45 that has somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000-300,000 rounds through of all kinds of .45ACP they make.  Sure some parts have been replaced because springs do where, but damn that is a high round count for a pistol.  

Are Glocks good?  Do they do the same thing? Yes.  Are they having problems with BTF issues, their stupid finger groves, and do owners still replace sights and the the trigger?  Yep.  How much do people put into them to make them run good?  

Are the M&Ps good?Yep.  love my M&P45 and would be very hard for me to trade it.  But I replaced the sights, and the trigger (Apex FSS), and the mags that are over 10 rounds look weird and are hard to conceal.  My M&P9 loses its accuracy past 15 yards, even with the new barrel, plus it still needs new sights and an Apex trigger.

With both pistols, all said and done, the price to make them shoot better would come to paying the price on a good used HK just for accuracy are reliability alone with a trigger that isn't great but like anything, practice helps.  But why the price?  Because good quality control comes at a cost.  With the three HKs I have bought, I have not had to send them out to get fixed, upgraded, or even call CS to have mag springs, or roll pins sent to me cause their failed (such as the case with my beloved M&P45.  They only change HK has made to the USP is the hammer parts and the firing pin block.  THAT IS IT!  How many changes has the M&P gone through: trigger, barrel, finish the rusted, front sight dots falling out?  Kimber and Sig have had some QC issues as their new management has decided to skimp the costs for that rather critical line in production.  Wonder why W. German Sigs still hold value?  How about late model Kimbers?

HK doesn't make an impressive line with their compacts being a little larger than what many consider to be a compact.  Yes, their triggers aren't the best, but part of the blame goes to the GRU and German LE requirements (think their version of NY Glock triggers).  Do their prices seem high?  Yes to a degree, but then good quality control and R&D does cost.  Even I'll admit getting USP45 magazines are outrageous.  But HK is the only folks who make the ones I trust.  Decently not Pro-mags poor excuse.  I can't even trust them as range mags.  

The USP was designed in 1989 and released in 1993 with the .45 coming along two years later.  Same with the P2000, the HK45, the P30, and fours of development with the VP9.  Since the VP9 has been released, it is too early to see any teething problems as of yet, but the pistol is being widely accepted.  But HK hasn't done a Remington R51 with any of their current production pistols, and even some of their late models.

I love my USP40C. It's not going anywhere.

I wouldn't mind picking up an HK Tactical.

I find them very comfortable to shoot and quite accurate.

You mean the 89 EO that Bush Sr. enacted?

i love Glock and HK's, but the HK has that special imagery inch for me

I don't care for USPs, but I do have a P2000sk that I like a lot (even the mag release) and I really want a HK45C.


Some people like different things I guess.

With HKs "outdated" method, I don't have to break my grip on my pistol the hit the magazine release, and then rotate it back once I've insert a fresh mag.  Guess some folks just don't like to change.

Ever

Well, those are either aftermarket, or you don't really know what you are looking at.  Both my USP9 and USP45 have metal factory sights.

This puts your shooting qualifications now into question.  Really?????  You sound like a kid who likes one toy so much that he refutes everything the new toy has that is in fact better.

I wouldn't own a piece of HK hardware if you gave it to me. They're too elite for the common folks.  And come the next lull in the fighting when they realize they need the civilian market, they can screw themselves too.

I sold all my HK stuff off, will never own more unless they stop treating civies like crap.

Like I said..... Over engineered


Not enough shooter input


It need not be that complicated.  A handgun is a simple machine.

Unless you want to carry it

Both +1.

Is that a G3 in your avatar?

 

I'm always amused at the emotional outbursts of the haters here.  HK makes some pretty nice stuff if you ask me.

Only on ARFCOM can not understanding why a gun is not popular means that you Hate them.

Some people just dont know quality when they see it.

Okay, that alone limits the value of your post to me. If a gun is accurate a 5 yards, it will be accurate at 15, 150, or 150 yards. Once the bullet leaves the barrel, the gun has nothing to do with it.

A lot of things go into what makes a handgun accurate for a person. A lot of it is whether or not the gun is ergonimcally agreeable to the shooter, if the trigger is what the shooter does well with, sight radius, and sight type. My experience is that M&P's are pretty average (read: decent) out of the box for PRACTICAL accuracy. That accuracy doesn't change with distance. They do improve greatly with an aftermarket trigger (I prefer ATEi to Apex, though Apex is pretty good for a drop-in for those guys who don't want to ship their gun), better sights, and stippling to help hold onto the gun. Personally, I have never had a handgun work as well for me as my M&P's do-I still have my Glock, but it's going to be turned into an SBR or a dedicated suppressed gun at some point-it only gets shot as a .22LR these days.

I've got a whole bunch of different handguns that don't require me to break my firing grip and pinch the mag release with my finger and thumb-that's what he said he does to release a mag. I couldn't easily reach the mag release on this USP45 with one thumb. Is it unreasonable to not want to partially let go of my gun to drop a mag?

I know, right? Modern materials science and CAD/CAM manufacturing techniques don't require design input from 19 guys making 200,000 Euros a piece, and then have each gun tested to (minimum) standards by umpteen German agencies that mean nothing to me, then then blessed by a wize old man living in a cave on the mountain top before putting in a box to ship to me. Germany's retirement legacy costs are not my problem either-H&K can either find more profitable ways to do business or let their profits take a hit to pay their worker's retirement packages. Everyone else, including German companies like Sig and Austrian companies like Steyr manage to turn a profit after dealing with the regulatory burden that H&K does. Why should we consumers be required to pay extra for a gun that doesn't do  ....*anything*.... different for us than any other commercial gun.

I don't need a handgun that will run 300,000 rounds as a test mule for an ammo company, I need a gun that will last 30,000 rounds reliably. I don't get where people say their H&K's are more reliable than other people's guns because they have never experienced a malfunction.... Guess What? I can't think of any of mine handguns that have ever choked either when it wasn't ammo related like a stuck primer.

Then don't buy an HK.  It's as simple as that....

Yeah ok

You're not required to pay anything



Yes, their use of higher quality materials, investment into keeping high manufacturing standards, high testing standards, employing their engineers (shooters can give input, but show me a professional shooter who is able to actually design a new pistol), their practice of taking care of their employees, and the import costs do add up to a more expensive product. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Personally the import costs are the only part of that, that does not actually make me want to support HK



 

omg HK pays their employees a living wage.  I will never buy from them again!  

OP is a champion of fail and aids.

the USP is by far the softest recoiling .45 I have ever shot. The trigger is good for a service pistol, wrong side safety is an easy fix (remove and reinsert from the other side I think) or buy an ambi lever, the mag release is fantastic once you actually shoot it.

considering the design is over 20yrs its pretty damn good. Expensive? Probably too much. At $650 its a great deal. At $850, not so , uch

It's funny that with the several options to chose from, the majority of defensive posts are upset by the sight comment.

I don't know.  They are well made, but they don't do anything Glock doesn't do better with regard to reliability/carry.

HK's are like high end sports cars.  All for show.  The power is just to give them credibility.....but at the end of the day....all that power is useless when you can only go 75, which my little $2k truck will do.

I had a USP 45 fullsize....dumped it

Would I buy another?  Unlikely.  When an acceptable number of mags cost more than the gun itself......screw that shit.

Are you going to try to sell me a Sham-Wow next?

So now are you saying that they are low quality or just cost too much?  The difference is that one gun can run 300K and almost any other can not.  I don't need it either and HK's current offerings don't appeal to me, so I don't own any.

 

I didn't say H&K guns weren't Quality, I said that a gun doesn't need to have that much "Quality" and Quality cost built in to be a good gun. The barrel material he pointed out is a good example-You don't have to pay a steel mill custom alloy fees to make a barrel that will outlast the rest of the gun. We are talking about low pressure handgun round here after all, not .220 Swift. That cost ends up passed on to the consumer with no tangeable benefit to them.