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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:20:33 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, according to you, borders don't exist so we're safe. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Please try to keep the personal attacks at the level of friendly bickering and good-natured ribbing.  Wait, so personal attacks are allowed? 
Yes, as long as you don't cross any borders. Well, according to you, borders don't exist so we're safe. Yes. That's exactly what I said. Borders don't exist. 
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:22:11 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. That's exactly what I said. Borders don't exist.
Sure seemed like it. I figured you were one of those "One World" hippies. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:24:44 AM EDT
[#3]
I get the whole maritime border argument, but counting an EEZ as a country's territory for border purposes is a bit sketchy. Foreign ships can just traipse into them and the country that has economic rights can't really do much if they aren't engaging in commerce. The 12 nm limit I can totally see. (Nautical mile not nanometer)
ETA: Wikipedia says that surface waters of an EEZ are international waters. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:30:18 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I get the whole maritime border argument, but counting an EEZ as a country's territory for border purposes is a bit sketchy. Foreign ships can just traipse into them and the country that has economic rights can't really do much if they aren't engaging in commerce. The 12 nm limit I can totally see. (Nautical mile not nanometer) There are several measures that can be applied depending on the point of the debate. I don't think it matters either way. In terms of modern borders there is an established maritime border between Sweden and Russia. That is a fact. From a strategic perspective the borders can also be considered in terms of threat and response times. Not really sure why dbrowne1 felt it necessary to start a thread about it, other than to try and prove a point which he was wrong about in the first place. Surprised how many people don't understand the concepts of borders as well. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:32:37 AM EDT
[#5]
Maritime, yes. Land, no.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:32:59 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I get the whole maritime border argument, but counting an EEZ as a country's territory for border purposes is a bit sketchy. Foreign ships can just traipse into them and the country that has economic rights can't really do much if they aren't engaging in commerce. The 12 nm limit I can totally see. (Nautical mile not nanometer) ETA: Wikipedia says that surface waters of an EEZ are international waters. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone Still a border. Not to mention the fact that EEZ doesn't really come in to play in most of the Baltic. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:33:06 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
... Not really sure why dbrowne1 felt it necessary to start a thread about it, .. I asked them to (either him or swede1986) because it was totally clogging up the Anti-Semitism thread, and because I was really curious what people thought. 
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:34:18 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I asked them to (either him or swede1986) because it was totally clogging up the Anti-Semitism thread, and because I was really curious what people thought. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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... Not really sure why dbrowne1 felt it necessary to start a thread about it, .. I asked them to (either him or swede1986) because it was totally clogging up the Anti-Semitism thread, and because I was really curious what people thought. I wonder why he thought it had something to do with antisemitism in the first place.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:40:02 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Still a border. Not to mention the fact that EEZ doesn't really come in to play in most of the Baltic. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I get the whole maritime border argument, but counting an EEZ as a country's territory for border purposes is a bit sketchy. Foreign ships can just traipse into them and the country that has economic rights can't really do much if they aren't engaging in commerce. The 12 nm limit I can totally see. (Nautical mile not nanometer) ETA: Wikipedia says that surface waters of an EEZ are international waters. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone Still a border. Not to mention the fact that EEZ doesn't really come in to play in most of the Baltic. If a Swedish ship carrying snus and Swedish fish went into Russian waters and opened up a huge can of surströmming could the Russians exert any control over them to stop the smell? I'm not saying there isn't technically a border but does it really mean anything? I just find maritime law interesting. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:42:19 AM EDT
[#10]
This thread has been going round and round for hours.
Will someone please pull this thread over and just ASK FOR DIRECTIONS? I gotta pee. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:43:33 AM EDT
[#11]
I'm just excited to discover that Denmark doesn't just border Germany, but also Great Britain, Poland and Canada - in addition to Sweden and Norway.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:43:52 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If a Swedish ship carrying snus and Swedish fish went into Russian waters and opened up a huge can of surströmming could the Russians exert any control over them to stop the smell? I'm not saying there isn't technically a border but does it really mean anything? I just find maritime law interesting. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I get the whole maritime border argument, but counting an EEZ as a country's territory for border purposes is a bit sketchy. Foreign ships can just traipse into them and the country that has economic rights can't really do much if they aren't engaging in commerce. The 12 nm limit I can totally see. (Nautical mile not nanometer) ETA: Wikipedia says that surface waters of an EEZ are international waters. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone Still a border. Not to mention the fact that EEZ doesn't really come in to play in most of the Baltic. If a Swedish ship carrying snus and Swedish fish went into Russian waters and opened up a huge can of surströmming could the Russians exert any control over them to stop the smell? I'm not saying there isn't technically a border but does it really mean anything? I just find maritime law interesting. It means everything. The Swedish Coast Guard can stop and search any vessel on our side of the border, and the Russians can do the same on their side. It's why the NSA helps fund Swedish SigInt operations in the Baltic. Our ships can remain on our side of the border, while still being close enough to Kaliningrad to listen on what they're up to. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:44:42 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm just excited to discover that Denmark doesn't just border Germany, but also Great Britain, Poland and Canada - in addition to Sweden and Norway. It's impressive for such a small country as Denmark. 
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:45:30 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I asked them to (either him or swede1986) because it was totally clogging up the Anti-Semitism thread, and because I was really curious what people thought. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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... Not really sure why dbrowne1 felt it necessary to start a thread about it, .. I asked them to (either him or swede1986) because it was totally clogging up the Anti-Semitism thread, and because I was really curious what people thought. Ah right. Fair point. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:46:22 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It means everything. The Swedish Coast Guard can stop and search any vessel on our side of the border, and the Russians can do the same on their side. It's why the NSA helps fund Swedish SigInt operations in the Baltic. Our ships can remain on our side of the border, while still being close enough to Kaliningrad to listen on what they're up to. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I get the whole maritime border argument, but counting an EEZ as a country's territory for border purposes is a bit sketchy. Foreign ships can just traipse into them and the country that has economic rights can't really do much if they aren't engaging in commerce. The 12 nm limit I can totally see. (Nautical mile not nanometer) ETA: Wikipedia says that surface waters of an EEZ are international waters. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exclusive_economic_zone Still a border. Not to mention the fact that EEZ doesn't really come in to play in most of the Baltic. If a Swedish ship carrying snus and Swedish fish went into Russian waters and opened up a huge can of surströmming could the Russians exert any control over them to stop the smell? I'm not saying there isn't technically a border but does it really mean anything? I just find maritime law interesting. It means everything. The Swedish Coast Guard can stop and search any vessel on our side of the border, and the Russians can do the same on their side. It's why the NSA helps fund Swedish SigInt operations in the Baltic. Our ships can remain on our side of the border, while still being close enough to Kaliningrad to listen on what they're up to. Well thanks for clearing that up. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:55:39 AM EDT
[#16]
The amount of stupid in this thread is fucking staggering........
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:56:55 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The amount of stupid in this thread is fucking staggering........ GD at its finest. 
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Posted: 7/24/2014 9:58:34 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The amount of stupid in this thread is fucking staggering........ How do you figure ?  |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:01:12 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The amount of stupid in this thread is fucking staggering........ No shit, it's not like the concept of maritime boundaries is unheard of, if your country's maritime boundary and the maritime boundary of another country meet, it's a shared border. 
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:04:49 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No shit, it's not like the concept of maritime boundaries is unheard of, if your country's maritime boundary and the maritime boundary of another country meet, it's a shared border. http://internationalmapping.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Poster.png Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The amount of stupid in this thread is fucking staggering........ No shit, it's not like the concept of maritime boundaries is unheard of, if your country's maritime boundary and the maritime boundary of another country meet, it's a shared border. http://internationalmapping.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Poster.png |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:04:55 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No shit, it's not like the concept of maritime boundaries is unheard of, if your country's maritime boundary and the maritime boundary of another country meet, it's a shared border. http://internationalmapping.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Poster.png Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The amount of stupid in this thread is fucking staggering........ No shit, it's not like the concept of maritime boundaries is unheard of, if your country's maritime boundary and the maritime boundary of another country meet, it's a shared border. http://internationalmapping.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Poster.png winner winner halal dinner. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:07:51 AM EDT
[#22]
http://youtu.be/ApxnAr6pRt0
 On we sweep with threshing oar, Our only goal will be the western shore. So now you'd better stop and rebuild all your ruins, For peace and trust can win the day despite of all your losing. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:09:14 AM EDT
[#23]
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Do you need a passport to cross it?
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The amount of stupid in this thread is fucking staggering........ No shit, it's not like the concept of maritime boundaries is unheard of, if your country's maritime boundary and the maritime boundary of another country meet, it's a shared border. http://internationalmapping.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Poster.png
Not America's, anymore. But seriously the passport is to get you passed the "port" of entry, which are the approved places to cross the borders, you can cross the border illegally all you want but most countries take issue with it. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:11:27 AM EDT
[#24]
Are we really this retarded?
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:11:41 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://youtu.be/ApxnAr6pRt0  http://youtu.be/ApxnAr6pRt0
[div style='text-align: start;']On we sweep with threshing oar, Our only goal will be the western shore. [div style='text-align: start;']So now you'd better stop and rebuild all your ruins, [div style='text-align: start;']For peace and trust can win the day despite of all your losing. IDF should blast that to every rubber dick in Gaza. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:12:34 AM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:13:46 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you need a passport to cross it? Perhaps & a shit load of dimes. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:14:26 AM EDT
[#28]
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Are we really this retarded? https://www.google.com/maps/vt/data=VLHX1wd2Cgu8wR6jwyh-km8JBWAkEzU4,uQB8JVADSQOhwAX3D4fY1N96ppM049Qs-R2oZDAtgsGpbjICtbGDapIE_tQsyGWsYid6bh8xzjjLyY9jiKBLyF0yHoegc-0hkDaZGrvIPmhl0jLTGEZzIksJeF4Efv1Z5r6Uq8C7dCyUhZLT0t_I7C2W1XeodS3aBxrYVyX5_j7a15zrrZnfGOhn-7sykc_eerJ9xqai Yes, y'all are. I have a masters in Cartography. Sweden does share a border in Russia, |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:14:56 AM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:15:12 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryThey are admiring my post.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:15:33 AM EDT
[#31]
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Are we really this retarded? https://www.google.com/maps/vt/data=VLHX1wd2Cgu8wR6jwyh-km8JBWAkEzU4,uQB8JVADSQOhwAX3D4fY1N96ppM049Qs-R2oZDAtgsGpbjICtbGDapIE_tQsyGWsYid6bh8xzjjLyY9jiKBLyF0yHoegc-0hkDaZGrvIPmhl0jLTGEZzIksJeF4Efv1Z5r6Uq8C7dCyUhZLT0t_I7C2W1XeodS3aBxrYVyX5_j7a15zrrZnfGOhn-7sykc_eerJ9xqai 
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:15:35 AM EDT
[#32]
I think we need some more people to answer yes to the poll to get it to 87. Then Sweden will in fact share a border with Russia.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:16:23 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think we need some more people to answer yes to the poll to get it to 87. Then Sweden will in fact share a border with Russia. Opinions mean shit. They share a boundary. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:17:34 AM EDT
[#34]
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Opinions mean shit. They share a boundary. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I think we need some more people to answer yes to the poll to get it to 87. Then Sweden will in fact share a border with Russia. Opinions mean shit. They share a boundary. Bingo. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:17:56 AM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:23:36 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes, y'all are. I have a masters in Cartography. Sweden does share a border in Russia, Y'all finally someone who uses it correctly. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:27:19 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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the US borders mauritania. just look what's right across the water from puerto rico. Reading is for faggots. http://images2.memedroid.com/images/UPLOADED29/51d5d9020e249.jpeg and so is clenching formalism. funny you have not figured that out yet.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:29:17 AM EDT
[#38]
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In most of the World, and by historical precedent, it is. Just like maritime borders exist. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Is my 1875 Martini-Henry (that I will be shooting tomorrow) a firearm? Legally - where I live - the answer is NO. Yet, I believe it is a firearm.  In most of the World, and by historical precedent, it is. Just like maritime borders exist. This is still getting into legal definitions that are a bit abstract. An EEZ? Fine, that certainly has fiscal importance. I think you have got to agree that a border based upon EEZ is at least substantially different than the more commonly thought of land border. Or let's say from a defensive standpoint as that seems to come up a lot with Russia… What does a defending General consider a border for his purposes? I guess that depends on the country to be worried about. In that case Samoa doesn't border Sweden, but General Tiki can consider the ocean an insecure border if you suddenly decide you need more tropical drinks. Or howabout a cruise ship? How soon can they start serving alcohol to 18 yo after departing the US for open seas? I think what you have to do is define terms here. What manner of border are we talking about? Dbrowne obviously has a different type of border in mind. Meanwhile you have the most legalistic definition in mind. Have you thought about moving to Germany? |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:34:30 AM EDT
[#39]
No, Sweden doesn't border Russia, but Norway does. And Norway is a NATO member, while Sweden is not.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:37:18 AM EDT
[#40]
Right now 81 people on arfcom need to learn how to use Google Maps. (OP as well since this could have answered his question quicker)
https://www.google.com/maps/@61.7688194,31.4930388,4z |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:37:31 AM EDT
[#41]
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You should call the US State Department. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Maritime borders do not count. You should call the US State Department. So the US doesn't border Sverige even though the water is all connected? I wanted to be bros, bro. 
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:39:11 AM EDT
[#42]
An argument about pure semantics, where no actual facts are in dispute. And it is four pages in counting. GD, you are truly living up to your stereotype. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:39:20 AM EDT
[#43]
Fwiw, I recalled that Sweden mobilized some armor to an island over which I believe they exert authority, specifically to counter Russia's recent agression. I believe that there was some historical context for Sweden being concerned that Russia may (again?) attempt to lay claim to the territory, as their contention was that it lays within the Russian maritime boundaries.
So, if both Sweden and Russia believe they share a border, who they hell am I to say that they don't? Voted Yes, didn't read the thread. At some point I'm going to have to look this up to see if I was paying proper attention.
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:42:16 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fwiw, I recalled that Sweden mobilized some armor to an island over which I believe they exert authority, specifically to counter Russia's recent agression. I believe that there was some historical context for Sweden being concerned that Russia may (again?) attempt to lay claim to the territory, as their contention was that it lays within the Russian maritime boundaries. Fighting over a disputed island doesn't mean that a border exists. If anything, it underscores the point that "maritime boundaries" are fuzzy math and do not a border make. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:43:22 AM EDT
[#45]
During the course of the Northern War with Sweden, Russia's forces gradually moved from Lake Ladoga down the Neva River to the Swedish fort of Nienchanz. After an 8-day siege on May 1 1703, the Swedish garrison surrendered. To protect the newly conquered lands on the Neva delta Peter the Great needed a fortress, but Nienchanz was small and badly damaged. Looking for a site for his new fortress Peter the Great chose the Island of Enisaari (Hare's Island), which was known to the Russians as Zayachii ostrov. On May 16 1703 (May, 27 by the modern calendar) St. Petersburg's fortress (the Peter and Paul Fortress) was founded and that day became the official birthday of the city. Several days later a wooden Cabin of Peter the Great was built, and became the first residential building in the new city. The original clay walls and bastions of the fortress were completed by the end of summer 1703 under the careful supervision of the Tsar and his close associates. The builders of the fortress (mostly soldiers and peasants) worked in very primitive conditions, since the climate was very damp, good housing nonexistent and food in very short supply. Working from dawn to dusk, they died in great numbers, but the war still went on and the fort had to be completed as soon as possible. By August 1703 the new settlers in Peter's city had already encountered the infamous St. Petersburg floods. Due to the boggy nature of the terrain, the area was considered unhealthy for a town, but it had tremendous strategic importance, so Peter the Great continued constructing the city despite all the losses and extra expenditures. For its first few years the St. Petersburg of Peter the Great was limited to a small town around the fortress, but by 1712 it had grown enough to become the new Russian capital. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:46:31 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fighting over a disputed island doesn't mean that a border exists. If anything, it underscores the point that "maritime boundaries" are fuzzy math and do not a border make. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Fwiw, I recalled that Sweden mobilized some armor to an island over which I believe they exert authority, specifically to counter Russia's recent agression. I believe that there was some historical context for Sweden being concerned that Russia may (again?) attempt to lay claim to the territory, as their contention was that it lays within the Russian maritime boundaries. Fighting over a disputed island doesn't mean that a border exists. If anything, it underscores the point that "maritime boundaries" are fuzzy math and do not a border make. The maritime border of Sweden and Russia is defined in several treaties. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:48:02 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The maritime border of Sweden and Russia is defined in several treaties. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Fwiw, I recalled that Sweden mobilized some armor to an island over which I believe they exert authority, specifically to counter Russia's recent agression. I believe that there was some historical context for Sweden being concerned that Russia may (again?) attempt to lay claim to the territory, as their contention was that it lays within the Russian maritime boundaries. Fighting over a disputed island doesn't mean that a border exists. If anything, it underscores the point that "maritime boundaries" are fuzzy math and do not a border make. The maritime border of Sweden and Russia is defined in several treaties. Which are obviously highly effective at establishing an actual border given the belligerent booger-flinging going on over the island described above. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:50:16 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which are obviously highly effective at establishing an actual border given the belligerent booger-flinging going on over the island described above. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Fwiw, I recalled that Sweden mobilized some armor to an island over which I believe they exert authority, specifically to counter Russia's recent agression. I believe that there was some historical context for Sweden being concerned that Russia may (again?) attempt to lay claim to the territory, as their contention was that it lays within the Russian maritime boundaries. Fighting over a disputed island doesn't mean that a border exists. If anything, it underscores the point that "maritime boundaries" are fuzzy math and do not a border make. The maritime border of Sweden and Russia is defined in several treaties. Which are obviously highly effective at establishing an actual border given the belligerent booger-flinging going on over the island described above. Land borders are never violated or contested though, that's why there have never been any invasions over land, only sea. |
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:50:48 AM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 7/24/2014 10:51:33 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When MOST people - especially in a huge land-mass like the U.S. - think of the word "border" they often think of a land border, and so the idea that France and Britain "border" each other is a bizarre concept to many, and Sweden/Russia seems even more far-fetched. People need to play more RISK.
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