The days of yore, when the Flashlight Octopus roamed the land, dispensing aluminum justice...

I was around back then.  I still can't be at a little league baseball practice without hearing that "sound" and reminiscing.

He's not wrong. I worked there long after he left and it is still a toilet.

Inarguably correct.

Don't resist arrest...........Don't fight the police.

Yep..............if you are going to use force........use enough of it, and use it fast.

As I've said multiple times, with no PC then there should not have been any attempt to arrest. So if no PC then no physical contact.
If there was PC then from what I've seen the force was not excessive. Not within a stupid policy but far from excessive.

Regardless of policy, the idea that that force was excessive is ridiculous.

 

Bingo

But it's so violent, why all the aggression? Why can't you just talk to them nicely and show them respect. They are human and have rights you know.

We routinely get shown videos in in-service training that our command staff and training division think are worth review for what went right and what went wrong.  When it comes to UOF videos we are shown videos where things went bad.  If you have any street experience you can usually see or tell  in watching the videos that things are going bad.  There's other LEO's in this thread, so I won't speak for them, but in my experience some of the worst people to deal with are "street smart" (you can infer that I mean people who routinely are involved in criminal activity and have been in he system) people.  These are people who while they may not always break the law, they sure as hell think they can bend it.  These are the guys who when you contact them, their first words are "I ain't doing nothing", "why you got to hassle me" or "Officer what'd I do" (you will sometimes score the trifecta of "Officer what'd I do, I ain't did nothing for you to be hasslin' me).   These are the people that try to get the cop to go away (usually will not work), think they can reason with the cop while making these statements and trying to walk away (usually a delaying tactic to see what the officer does and think about which way he will make a break for it) or call others attention to himself (yelling at other people to "see how this cop is messin' with me).    Sound familiar?

Not to prolong this, but where did I say that?

 

I get that you guys deal with the frequent-flyer dregs of society most of the time (and for that you have my gratitude), but sometimes you deal with Mr. And Mrs. Taxpayer, and when you do, some among your ranks are unable or unwilling to tone down the "Command Authority" voice and realize that we're more interested in making our mortgage payment than planning a cop-killing spree. I live in an almost-violence-free white-bread Mormon community. Despite that, the cops out here, who have had a few too many "quick and decisive" briefings, act like we're all planning complex ambushes to make sure they don't go home safe. Last year one drew down on my little brother for having his hand in his lap. If someone in my family ever gets killed because they answer the door with a Wii controller, I'm going to have to COC violation all over city hall, so I see anything that makes cops hesitate and analyze if the force they're about to use is really appropriate, as a good thing. If this cop gets his dick
slapped for killing someone, maybe the next one that thinks "but a choke hold is just a policy violation" won't go through with it and the citizenry will be safer.

Pardon my rapid-fire high-capacity assault machine phone. Don't tell the FCC

He should be.  We should all be proud of the kiddy jobs we had before we grew up into our real jobs.

Well played.

There are certain activities in life that make me lose all sympathy for the person.  Skydivers,  riding a motorcycle without gear,  being anti gun,  resisting arrest,  etc.

Sir, Ma'am, please and thank you only get you so far.

The guy had no intention of doing what the officers wanted.

We are not going to stand in the middle of street and have a debate about your case.



These types of scenarios play out a thousand times everyday all across America.

The smart cops start with sir and please and then go to "I'm going to crack your head open like a watermelon".

If the cop means it and has the determination to do it, the bad guy will normally give up, sometimes they don't and the fight is on.

In today's environment and with everyone carrying cell phones, me telling bad guy I'm going to break his head open will definitely be frowned upon by the administration.

So I have to politely try to convince an animal that I will do him harm if he forces me to.

The message doesn't get conveyed properly and the bad guy assumes I am a "bitch" and he thinks he can continue in his bad behavior.

The cop is then forced by the suspect's action to call his bluff and the fight ensues.



When the fight starts I want it over as fast as possible.

The force I use has to be reasonable to the resistance met, but I have to overcome his resistance.

He jerks his arm away and then it's time to use balance displacement and joint locks to get him moving in the right direction or with my department drop his ass with a Taser.

Dude was a big boy so an arm bar probably wouldn't work. So do I try and fail or just pull out my stick and go all Rodney King on his ass?

If I try and fail I have just presented my gun to him. If I start trying to beat some sense into him with my baton we get the LA riots.

Anyway you cut it, it is a shitty situation with no chance to win.






Police are not mind readers and do have not crystal balls. I cannot see the horns or halo above your head.

I do not assume you are a good guy or a bad guy.

Your actions and body language will tell me.



Where you there when the cop pointed the gun at him and what was your brother doing other than just innocently sitting with his hands folded in his lap in silent prayer?



Most of time when dealing with "normal" people, they have no idea what they are doing to get the attention of the police.

Since to the best of their knowledge they are doing nothing wrong, when the cop tells them to do something they get offended and are slow to comply.



Perhaps the neighbor got tired of the loud party and to get a quick police response called in a shots fired run or person armed with a gun.

We respond believing something terrible is going on. Your brother sitting quietly with his hands folded in prayer is slow to respond to the officer when he is told to raise his arms.

The officer is completely justified in pointing his firearm at your brother.

The officer is quickly telling your brother do what I tell you, do not try to fight me or I will kill you.

Both parties come to a quick understanding and the problem is resolved.

Afterwards when the dust has settled, is the time for the officer apologize and explain why they acted the way they did.

The involved party may realize why the officer did what they did or more than likely will completely ignore everything they were told and get a chapped ass because the cop pointed a gun them.

Then when the story is repeated they leave out details that would explain the officer's actions.
 

Cops furious over de Blasio lawyer’s apology tweet to ‘chokehold’ victim

Link

A top de Blasio administration lawyer infuriated cops by tweeting about how the city failed NYPD “chokehold” victim Eric Garner — even as the investigation into his death remains open.

“RIP Eric Garner,” wrote Ian Bassin, a deputy counsel who earns $140,000 a year. “You deserved so much more from our City. We will and we must do better.”

The premature July 19 posting on Bassin’s personal Twitter page enraged cops, who are under fire over the death even before an official autopsy report.

“That is crazy. This administration is filled with a bunch of liberal loonies,” said a police source. “I don’t understand how someone who represents the mayor could go public with a statement like that without the autopsy report.”

Elections, Consequences, Etc....
Cops & Everyone else better get used to it, it is going to get much worse in the entire nation,
REMEMBER The Nation elected the KENYAN 2X!

I know how to choke someone very well.  I mean that I regularly practice doing it.  I can tell you with no doubt that if that officer had been trying to do a choke on the suspect he wouldn't have been able to resist for much more than a few seconds.  Maybe more if he was familiar with how to deal with being choked out, which is highly unlikely.  Anyone who calls that a choke hold is completely uninformed.  



What that officer was doing was trying to control the suspects head because where the head goes the body will follow.  And he was a massive dude.  Had he not continued to struggle, even when he had all those officers on him, then he wouldn't have gassed himself into a heart attack or whatever killed him.  I've watched that video a dozen times and I can't see a thing wrong with how they tried to place him under arrest.  The guy really didn't want to go to jail, can't blame him for that.  But he chose poorly considering how many cops he was going to have to fight just so he could continue doing whatever it was he thought he was going to do later that day.  



 

(1) Yes, I was in the passenger seat of the vehicle he was driving. We had rolled through a stop light on a right-hand turn, undoubtedly part of a dastardly Al Qaeda plot that our heroic officer was about to foil and save the day and earn the key to the city and the love and affection of maidens near and far.

(2) He and I were making small talk. Right hand was (don't remember honestly, but plainly in view) on steering wheel or gear shift or something. Left hand was resting on his left thigh, below level of the window, out of site from someone outside of vehicle on driver's side. Officer HighStrung had taken his license back to his vehicle and came back a minute later in full-on panic mode. Screaming, gun pointed at my brother's head (when it wasn't shaking). At the beginning of his Mall Ninja performance, I could hear the screams, but couldn't make out a word he was saying for ~15-20 seconds. It was just ... noise, lots of loud, excited noise. First phrase I could make out was "Where's the fuckin' gun?" and I told my brother not to move a muscle. Cops' volume gradually declined from screaming to yelling to really, really angry, he finally listened to my brother when he said, "I don't have a gun", and a supervisor showed up and dramatically de-escalated things. Funny thing was, I had MY gun on the whole time, and it never came up. Also, supervisor had REALLY good response time (was on-scene maybe two minutes after screaming started - I wonder what sort of call Officer ShitHisPants made over the radio to get that sort of reaction)
Mitigating factors (things that might excuse / explain / justify / support cop's over-the-top actions): He had just learned from dispatch / computer that my brother had a valid CCW permit, it was late at night (11:00ish maybe? definitely dark outside), he'd pulled over a vehicle with two somewhat-stocky young men in it, and he was alone. Also, his supervisor said he was "new", so it might be a green-horn thing.
Aggravating factors (things that once known, make the cop's actions even less justified): There is no law in Utah that would require us to notify officers of CCW permit status (I had worked to fix that, and had finally succeeded a few months prior to this); my brother did NOT, in fact, have a gun on him that night; we were in the Mayberry-esque epicenter of Mormon-dom - almost everyone there is wearing halos. Guys might work their whole career in that department and never run across a legitimate bad guy.
During the screaming and gun-pointing, I thought to myself, "it's too bad that his department issues Glocks, because if it had been some weapon with a manual safety, I bet he is way too agitated to have remembered to turn it off, and my brother would be in a lot less danger right now. Any time a cop, who likely doesn't know much of anything about the gun he's wielding, and could very well have an IQ only a few points above "the human ham", is fumbling around with a gun or pointing it at you, your life is in danger:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDfNV9bJoSg
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=414_1249322308
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b8e_1397830998
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcxIpNkMXHU
If you still don't believe me, just go look at the walls, floor, and ceiling of your police range the next time you're there. Every one I've seen the inside of is shot to shit with negligent discharges. The DWR guys in my state said they don't even want police using the public ranges "because they're really hard on them."

(3) FUCK THAT NOISE! The apology from the supervisor that showed up a few minutes late would seem to suggest otherwise.

(4) Officer AssHat never apologized or explained his actions. I don't even know what such an explanation would have consisted of. "hey, sorry I'm an asshat that doesn't know the law around here and freaked out" or something like that maybe?

Good, maybe they'll finally figure out how to follow their own policies.

That's been well known for decades.


Maybe the active cops will finally figure out the benefits of drive and wave policing.

I'm pretty sure most of us are calling that a choke hold primarily because NYPD policy defines it as such. Yes, it didn't appear to be very effective at making the guy black out, but if you work for NYPD, you're not allowed to wrap your arm around a suspect's neck. If you do, and the suspect subsequently dies, you should probably expect to win your stupid prize.

You really meant to say "locker room" didn't you?

I'm fine with that. It would probably be safer for bystanders than what they've been doing, and I always kind of liked Ra's al Ghul and the League of Shadow's NYC redevelopment plan anyways.

Should've just left the guy the fuck alone.  Jesus.

Me too, it worked wonders for my career there.

LOL! The best part about that is that I'm pretty sure you're serious.

Desk pop!



 

I went from a plainclothes unit making lots of arrests and getting complaints to being R.O.D. on patrol and getting zero complaints. Worked for me.
If you want to be a proactive cop there you will get complaints, sued, and eventually jammed up even if you do nothing wrong.

What's R.O.D.?

Retired On Duty.

You seem rather naive and unexperienced, or perhaps just deliberately obtuse.

For not knowing what a random TLA stands for?

 

No. The totality of what I've read from him lately.

Was it my story up-thread about growing up on the mean streets of Utah?

If you're on the ball, it certainly doesn't take long. It's like the old joke, if you look around the poker table, and you can't figure out who the sucker is, it's you.

You see a few people end up in the jackpot over bullshit, you realize pretty quickly that you're the one who's gonna be thrown to the wolves when the wheels come off the plan.

Once that light bulb appears over your head, CYA becomes your way of life; it's your religion. Like the man said, I know my ass is clean because I wipe it.

If they're smart.

 

I don't blame them.  No way I would take any risks or do normal police work in a Dept like that.  Can't wait to see the crime rates go up.

I'm gonna go with "run out of things to do and start harassing me over how much of my license plate is visible or how long I stopped at the stop sign".