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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:05:32 AM EDT
[#1]
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And also note that while Jesus lived as a man for 30+ years on Earth, he WAS and IS and ALWAYS will BE. The Trinity as I read it. Yes indeed. The doctrine of the "kenosis" states that He voluntarily did not use some of His power as God while on earth. Examples would be that God never is hungry, but Jesus was. God is never tired, but Jesus was. But at no time did Jesus ever cease being a part of the Triune God. He was, is, and always will be Very God. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:06:28 AM EDT
[#2]
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All those Apostles and not one could mount a rescue attempt? "Common JC, I got a getaway car! let's blow this Roman popsicle stand and head for Babylon! Happy Easter  One did. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:07:47 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes indeed. The doctrine of the "kenosis" states that He voluntarily did not use some of His power as God while on earth. Examples would be that God never is hungry, but Jesus was. God is never tired, but Jesus was. But at no time did Jesus ever cease being a part of the Triune God. He was, is, and always will be Very God. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: And also note that while Jesus lived as a man for 30+ years on Earth, he WAS and IS and ALWAYS will BE. The Trinity as I read it. Yes indeed. The doctrine of the "kenosis" states that He voluntarily did not use some of His power as God while on earth. Examples would be that God never is hungry, but Jesus was. God is never tired, but Jesus was. But at no time did Jesus ever cease being a part of the Triune God. He was, is, and always will be Very God. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:08:03 AM EDT
[#4]
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So Moses, Abraham, Daniel, etc... all believed in the same god and carried out his will but none of them get to be in heaven because far in the future another group of pepole decided to re-write the rules? Or perhaps they were in heaven, then cast out after Jesus came? Or they just did all these things for god and believed just as he asked them to do and then they got nothing in return? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not trying to stir things up, I've always wondered this. Jesus was persecuted by the Romans right? Pontius Pilate decided his fate, so why do they say Jesus died for our sins when the decision wasn't his? If you are seriously asking, I will explain. The Bible says that Jesus' death and resurrection was planned by God before the foundation of the earth. He had to pay for our sins, as we had no way to pay for them ourselves. But make no mistake........Jesus was in total control, not the Romans, and not the Jews. He was in total control and did what He did to pay for the sins of those that would trust Him. That's why He said, just before He died, "It is all finished". He had completed His task. Happy Easter. If Jesus is the path to salvation, a path that can not exist without him then what happened to all the people (important figures in the Old Testament, etc...) who lived and died before him? Purgatory So Moses, Abraham, Daniel, etc... all believed in the same god and carried out his will but none of them get to be in heaven because far in the future another group of pepole decided to re-write the rules? Or perhaps they were in heaven, then cast out after Jesus came? Or they just did all these things for god and believed just as he asked them to do and then they got nothing in return? Purgatory is temporary. You can get into heaven from Purgatory. Or Not. RC doctorie on Purgatory What they "got" was not being condemned for eternity to Hell. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:08:59 AM EDT
[#5]
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I'm pretty sure the sin he supposedly died for was the original sin, not the I checked out my neighbor's wife's ass today sin. Your surety is misplaced. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:10:34 AM EDT
[#6]
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Yes. Think of the sacrifices as interest paid on a loan. The sacrifices didn't cleanse the sin, merely showed earnest regret for sin. Salvation comes form belief in Jesus and acceptance of sacrifice. Even the Ancient Jews believed in a Messiah and looked forward to his coming. They were so wrapped up in their traditions that they were asleep at the wheel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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People used to offer sacrifices to God whether it was animal or food to atone for their sins and to show devotion to God. Jesus sacrificed himself so that man would never have to sacrifice again. Yes. Think of the sacrifices as interest paid on a loan. The sacrifices didn't cleanse the sin, merely showed earnest regret for sin. Salvation comes form belief in Jesus and acceptance of sacrifice. Even the Ancient Jews believed in a Messiah and looked forward to his coming. They were so wrapped up in their traditions that they were asleep at the wheel. Also, the Jews wanted a Messiah who would save THEM, not the entirety of humanity. At the time of Jesus, the Jews were waiting for a leader who would rally them against Rome. ckmorley |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:10:46 AM EDT
[#7]
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Purgatory is temporary. You can get into heaven from Purgatory. Or Not. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If Jesus is the path to salvation, a path that can not exist without him then what happened to all the people (important figures in the Old Testament, etc...) who lived and died before him? Purgatory So Moses, Abraham, Daniel, etc... all believed in the same god and carried out his will but none of them get to be in heaven because far in the future another group of pepole decided to re-write the rules? Or perhaps they were in heaven, then cast out after Jesus came? Or they just did all these things for god and believed just as he asked them to do and then they got nothing in return? Purgatory is temporary. You can get into heaven from Purgatory. Or Not. Makes sense then. I was unaware that you could get out of purgatory. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:12:15 AM EDT
[#8]
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After 40 years of being an agnostic I may be a little foggy on the details but the Catholic, Roman and otherwise, take on it is Original sin. I had six years of Benedictine education and parochial Catechism before that. And yes to an earlier question, an infant who has not been baptized can not enter heaven, technically. That and all the innocent children who were not Christians being barred from Heaven were a couple of things that turned me away from the Church. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm pretty sure the sin he supposedly died for was the original sin, not the I checked out my neighbor's wife's ass today sin. I'm not sure about Roman Catholic doctrine, but Protestants believe Jesus paid for ALL sins, not just original sin. Indeed he did. After 40 years of being an agnostic I may be a little foggy on the details but the Catholic, Roman and otherwise, take on it is Original sin. I had six years of Benedictine education and parochial Catechism before that. And yes to an earlier question, an infant who has not been baptized can not enter heaven, technically. That and all the innocent children who were not Christians being barred from Heaven were a couple of things that turned me away from the Church. I guess the Catholic Bible doesn't have that whole "suffer the children to come unto me" verse ... |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:12:24 AM EDT
[#9]
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Makes sense then. I was unaware that you could get out of purgatory. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If Jesus is the path to salvation, a path that can not exist without him then what happened to all the people (important figures in the Old Testament, etc...) who lived and died before him? Purgatory So Moses, Abraham, Daniel, etc... all believed in the same god and carried out his will but none of them get to be in heaven because far in the future another group of pepole decided to re-write the rules? Or perhaps they were in heaven, then cast out after Jesus came? Or they just did all these things for god and believed just as he asked them to do and then they got nothing in return? Purgatory is temporary. You can get into heaven from Purgatory. Or Not. Makes sense then. I was unaware that you could get out of purgatory. You have to do battle with a dragon to get out. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:13:10 AM EDT
[#10]
Heaven is real, been there did that. and it was Awesome
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:13:18 AM EDT
[#11]
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Makes sense then. I was unaware that you could get out of purgatory. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If Jesus is the path to salvation, a path that can not exist without him then what happened to all the people (important figures in the Old Testament, etc...) who lived and died before him? Purgatory So Moses, Abraham, Daniel, etc... all believed in the same god and carried out his will but none of them get to be in heaven because far in the future another group of pepole decided to re-write the rules? Or perhaps they were in heaven, then cast out after Jesus came? Or they just did all these things for god and believed just as he asked them to do and then they got nothing in return? Purgatory is temporary. You can get into heaven from Purgatory. Or Not. Makes sense then. I was unaware that you could get out of purgatory. Jesus died for the past, and the present. All that truly followed God in the past, gets a ticket into heaven. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:13:35 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:If Jesus is the path to salvation, a path that can not exist without him then what happened to all the people (important figures in the Old Testament, etc...) who lived and died before him? Jesus was here when the world was made. In fact, He made it. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:14:18 AM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:15:20 AM EDT
[#14]
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And to the smarty pants that think they can explain a Triune God in a nice tidy little box so that it is easy to understand for all involved without faith, well you get a cookie if you can do it. The absent Jesus, the atheist Jesus, the fraudster Jesus, the mortal Jesus, lately the abortionist Jesus and the communist Jesus, etc. etc. etc.- anything but the Gospel. He is indeed the stumbling block for all generations. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:15:51 AM EDT
[#15]
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Jesus was here when the world was made. In fact, He made it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:If Jesus is the path to salvation, a path that can not exist without him then what happened to all the people (important figures in the Old Testament, etc...) who lived and died before him? Jesus was here when the world was made. In fact, He made it. I believe he was the one who walked with Adam and Eve wasn't he? |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:16:40 AM EDT
[#16]
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If you are seriously asking, I will explain. The Bible says that Jesus' death and resurrection was planned by God before the foundation of the earth. He had to pay for our sins, as we had no way to pay for them ourselves. But make no mistake........Jesus was in total control, not the Romans, and not the Jews. He was in total control and did what He did to pay for the sins of those that would trust Him. That's why He said, just before He died, "It is all finished". He had completed His task. Happy Easter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not trying to stir things up, I've always wondered this. Jesus was persecuted by the Romans right? Pontius Pilate decided his fate, so why do they say Jesus died for our sins when the decision wasn't his? If you are seriously asking, I will explain. The Bible says that Jesus' death and resurrection was planned by God before the foundation of the earth. He had to pay for our sins, as we had no way to pay for them ourselves. But make no mistake........Jesus was in total control, not the Romans, and not the Jews. He was in total control and did what He did to pay for the sins of those that would trust Him. That's why He said, just before He died, "It is all finished". He had completed His task. Happy Easter. When I was a Christian, I never understood it. Pay WHO, exactly? Himself? How does that make any sense? WHO needed to be satisfied? God had to die himself, in order to satisfy himself? |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:16:47 AM EDT
[#17]
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I am truly sorry for your hurting. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The bible is a fictional story, the Star Wars of the Dark ages. All the religions were created to make people feel better about the life they don't understand. Just believe the parts that will make you feel better. And don't forget to donate to the church. It's sad. All alone in a cold, uncaring universe where he alone must bear the weight of his misdeeds with no chance for redeeming himself. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:17:32 AM EDT
[#18]
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Makes sense then. I was unaware that you could get out of purgatory. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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If Jesus is the path to salvation, a path that can not exist without him then what happened to all the people (important figures in the Old Testament, etc...) who lived and died before him? Purgatory So Moses, Abraham, Daniel, etc... all believed in the same god and carried out his will but none of them get to be in heaven because far in the future another group of pepole decided to re-write the rules? Or perhaps they were in heaven, then cast out after Jesus came? Or they just did all these things for god and believed just as he asked them to do and then they got nothing in return? Purgatory is temporary. You can get into heaven from Purgatory. Or Not. Makes sense then. I was unaware that you could get out of purgatory. And be sure to understand that purgatory is strictly a Roman Catholic doctrine. Protestants do not believe in it at all. Either Jesus has paid for all of my sins completely, or He was not enough. I do not have anything to contribute to my salvation. As Jesus said, "It is finished." |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:17:36 AM EDT
[#19]
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Happy Easter! HE IS RISEN!!!! He is risen, indeed. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:18:19 AM EDT
[#20]
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I thought the whole Heaven/Hell thing was supposed as a reward and punishment system for virtues and sins? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not trying to stir things up, I've always wondered this. Jesus was persecuted by the Romans right? Pontius Pilate decided his fate, so why do they say Jesus died for our sins when the decision wasn't his? If you are seriously asking, I will explain. The Bible says that Jesus' death and resurrection was planned by God before the foundation of the earth. He had to pay for our sins, as we had no way to pay for them ourselves. But make no mistake........Jesus was in total control, not the Romans, and not the Jews. He was in total control and did what He did to pay for the sins of those that would trust Him. That's why He said, just before He died, "It is all finished". He had completed His task. Happy Easter. I thought the whole Heaven/Hell thing was supposed as a reward and punishment system for virtues and sins? Theologians spend their entire lives debating how many Angles can dance on the head of a pin. Sometimes you just have to hit the "I believe" button. We do it in science all the time. Here is the three body problem in a very very Barney style: We know that all mass has gravity. We know that gravity effects mass. We can perfectly predict the behavior of two bodies gravitational effects on each other. Nobody can do it with 3. 
We just hit the "I believe" button that gravity affects ALL mass in the universe, and everything effects everything else. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:18:48 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistorySo Moses, Abraham, Daniel, etc... all believed in the same god and carried out his will but none of them get to be in heaven because far in the future another group of pepole decided to re-write the rules? Or perhaps they were in heaven, then cast out after Jesus came? Or they just did all these things for god and believed just as he asked them to do and then they got nothing in return? Purgatory is temporary. You can get into heaven from Purgatory. Or Not. Makes sense then. I was unaware that you could get out of purgatory. You have to do battle with a dragon to get out. Prayers for the Dead. Also don't the Mormons have a way of bringing ancestors with them? |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:19:03 AM EDT
[#22]
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I've always wondered about the sincerity of His, "death". It was more of a three day time-out, and he knew it. That's a whole lot less significant than any of us, "dieing". "Death", to you or me, is a sucky proposition, but "death" to Him, was essentially temporary. Think of all the sins ever committed by humans. Now consider the payment for sin is separation from God or eternal suffering. Christ bore the suffering, pain, and isolation that it would have taken the whole of humanity and eternity to bare; and he did it in 3 days and one abbreviated human lifetime. Christ sacrifice was the payment that changed death from an eternal sentence of punishment, into the passage for communion w/ God for those who believe. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:19:14 AM EDT
[#23]
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This singular statement is why I'm an objectivist. Volitional conciousness, and reason, out the window. Happy Easter (from a former catholic). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Sin is genetic. From one man sin, so the entire race does. This singular statement is why I'm an objectivist. Volitional conciousness, and reason, out the window. Happy Easter (from a former catholic). Agreed. How can a newborn infant be a sinner? Or be sent to hell b/c he has the mere potential to sin? ckmorley |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:19:42 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I guess the Catholic Bible doesn't have that whole "suffer the children to come unto me" verse ... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm pretty sure the sin he supposedly died for was the original sin, not the I checked out my neighbor's wife's ass today sin. I'm not sure about Roman Catholic doctrine, but Protestants believe Jesus paid for ALL sins, not just original sin. Indeed he did. After 40 years of being an agnostic I may be a little foggy on the details but the Catholic, Roman and otherwise, take on it is Original sin. I had six years of Benedictine education and parochial Catechism before that. And yes to an earlier question, an infant who has not been baptized can not enter heaven, technically. That and all the innocent children who were not Christians being barred from Heaven were a couple of things that turned me away from the Church. I guess the Catholic Bible doesn't have that whole "suffer the children to come unto me" verse ... That is absolutely incorrect, the part in red. Necessity of Baptism . . . 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them", allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:20:06 AM EDT
[#25]
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Not trying to stir things up, I've always wondered this. Jesus was persecuted by the Romans right? Pontius Pilate decided his fate, so why do they say Jesus died for our sins when the decision wasn't his? Were do you get this Romans stuff. He was persecuted and killed by the religious authorities. The Romans were just proxies, because the Sanhedrin couldn't have anyone put to death. Pilate washed his hands of the matter. God came to present Himself and teach. He could have died of old age if the religious authorities weren't so self centered and nasty. One of the main things He taugh was forgiveness, which is incompatible with punishment or the equivalent, "paying for sin". |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:20:10 AM EDT
[#26]
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Do you really believe that the person named Jesus who was crucified around 2,000 years ago both lived a sinless life and had the ability to call down an army of angels to protect him? I find that fascinating that people can believe such things. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He was sinless and therefore not subject to death which are the wages of sin. He, being divine could have called legions of Angles to protect him. Yes Pilate ordered him executed but Jesus went willingly to his fate. By being falsely accused, convicted, sentenced and executed, he trumps Death and is able to offer redemption to all who will accept it. Do you really believe that the person named Jesus who was crucified around 2,000 years ago both lived a sinless life and had the ability to call down an army of angels to protect him? I find that fascinating that people can believe such things. I pray that someday you will understand it. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:20:12 AM EDT
[#27]
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Not trying to stir things up, I've always wondered this. Jesus was persecuted by the Romans right? Pontius Pilate decided his fate, so why do they say Jesus died for our sins when the decision wasn't his? ...asks in GD...abandons thread. 
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:20:38 AM EDT
[#28]
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And be sure to understand that purgatory is strictly a Roman Catholic doctrine. Protestants do not believe in it at all. Either Jesus has paid for all of my sins completely, or He was not enough. I do not have anything to contribute to my salvation. As Jesus said, "It is finished." Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So Moses, Abraham, Daniel, etc... all believed in the same god and carried out his will but none of them get to be in heaven because far in the future another group of pepole decided to re-write the rules? Or perhaps they were in heaven, then cast out after Jesus came? Or they just did all these things for god and believed just as he asked them to do and then they got nothing in return? Purgatory is temporary. You can get into heaven from Purgatory. Or Not. Makes sense then. I was unaware that you could get out of purgatory. And be sure to understand that purgatory is strictly a Roman Catholic doctrine. Protestants do not believe in it at all. Either Jesus has paid for all of my sins completely, or He was not enough. I do not have anything to contribute to my salvation. As Jesus said, "It is finished." Ok, so just to be sure I understand it... according to RC doctrine the prophets would have gone to purgatory, then to heaven after Jesus and according to the Protestant doctrine the prophets would have gone straight to heaven because the strength of their faith basically implied that they believed in the messiah? |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:21:13 AM EDT
[#29]
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Because Jesus did not eat a forbidden fruit, but you did. I did not eat any damned fruit! |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:21:43 AM EDT
[#30]
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Prayers for the Dead. Also don't the Mormons have a way of bringing ancestors with them? Quote HistoryQuoted:
So Moses, Abraham, Daniel, etc... all believed in the same god and carried out his will but none of them get to be in heaven because far in the future another group of pepole decided to re-write the rules? Or perhaps they were in heaven, then cast out after Jesus came? Or they just did all these things for god and believed just as he asked them to do and then they got nothing in return? Purgatory is temporary. You can get into heaven from Purgatory. Or Not. Makes sense then. I was unaware that you could get out of purgatory. You have to do battle with a dragon to get out. Prayers for the Dead. Also don't the Mormons have a way of bringing ancestors with them? The Mormons actually baptize dead people into the church. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:22:19 AM EDT
[#31]
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Agreed. How can a newborn infant be a sinner? Or be sent to hell b/c he has the mere potential to sin? ckmorley Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Sin is genetic. From one man sin, so the entire race does. This singular statement is why I'm an objectivist. Volitional conciousness, and reason, out the window. Happy Easter (from a former catholic). Agreed. How can a newborn infant be a sinner? Or be sent to hell b/c he has the mere potential to sin? ckmorley The doctrine states that the infant is born with sin, the original sin. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:22:49 AM EDT
[#32]
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He was sinless and therefore not subject to death which are the wages of sin. He, being divine could have called legions of Angles to protect him. Yes Pilate ordered him executed but Jesus went willingly to his fate. By being falsely accused, convicted, sentenced and executed, he trumps Death and is able to offer redemption to all who will accept it. Prove it. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:23:44 AM EDT
[#33]
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Ok, so just to be sure I understand it... according to RC doctrine the prophets would have gone to purgatory, then to heaven after Jesus and according to the Protestant doctrine the prophets would have gone straight to heaven because the strength of their faith basically implied that they believed in the messiah? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So Moses, Abraham, Daniel, etc... all believed in the same god and carried out his will but none of them get to be in heaven because far in the future another group of pepole decided to re-write the rules? Or perhaps they were in heaven, then cast out after Jesus came? Or they just did all these things for god and believed just as he asked them to do and then they got nothing in return? Purgatory is temporary. You can get into heaven from Purgatory. Or Not. Makes sense then. I was unaware that you could get out of purgatory. And be sure to understand that purgatory is strictly a Roman Catholic doctrine. Protestants do not believe in it at all. Either Jesus has paid for all of my sins completely, or He was not enough. I do not have anything to contribute to my salvation. As Jesus said, "It is finished." Ok, so just to be sure I understand it... according to RC doctrine the prophets would have gone to purgatory, then to heaven after Jesus and according to the Protestant doctrine the prophets would have gone straight to heaven because the strength of their faith basically implied that they believed in the messiah? I cannot explain Roman Catholic doctrine. however, the second part of your statement is what Protestants believe, more or less.
And it was not a matter of "basically implied". God knows. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:23:53 AM EDT
[#34]
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Happy Easter! HE IS RISEN!!!! He has risen indeed! |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:24:44 AM EDT
[#35]
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I cannot explain Roman Catholic doctrine. however, the second part of your statement is what Protestants believe, more or less.
And it was not a matter of "basically implied". God knows. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Makes sense then. I was unaware that you could get out of purgatory. And be sure to understand that purgatory is strictly a Roman Catholic doctrine. Protestants do not believe in it at all. Either Jesus has paid for all of my sins completely, or He was not enough. I do not have anything to contribute to my salvation. As Jesus said, "It is finished." Ok, so just to be sure I understand it... according to RC doctrine the prophets would have gone to purgatory, then to heaven after Jesus and according to the Protestant doctrine the prophets would have gone straight to heaven because the strength of their faith basically implied that they believed in the messiah? I cannot explain Roman Catholic doctrine. however, the second part of your statement is what Protestants believe, more or less.
And it was not a matter of "basically implied". God knows. Got it, thanks. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:25:18 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There was NOTHING temporary about his burden on that cross. But that is something you need to read about for yourself. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've always wondered about the sincerity of His, "death". It was more of a three day time-out, and he knew it. That's a whole lot less significant than any of us, "dieing". "Death", to you or me, is a sucky proposition, but "death" to Him, was essentially temporary. He still bears the burden to this day, even up in heaven. The responsibility that no man would take on, even if forced, he took willingly, so that we could have the option to know Him and dwell in His house. No greater love exists, than the love that God, The Son, showed for his children. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:25:42 AM EDT
[#37]
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I believe he was the one who walked with Adam and Eve wasn't he? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:If Jesus is the path to salvation, a path that can not exist without him then what happened to all the people (important figures in the Old Testament, etc...) who lived and died before him? Jesus was here when the world was made. In fact, He made it. I believe he was the one who walked with Adam and Eve wasn't he? I think so. I will defer to Old_Painless on the matter. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:26:51 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:That is absolutely incorrect, the part in red.
Necessity of Baptism . . . 1261As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrustthem to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed,the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus'tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children cometo me, do not hinder them", allow us to hope that there is a wayof salvation for children who have died without Baptism. Baptism does not confer salvation - it is rather the act of obedience performed after one is already saved. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:27:28 AM EDT
[#39]
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Prove it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He was sinless and therefore not subject to death which are the wages of sin. He, being divine could have called legions of Angles to protect him. Yes Pilate ordered him executed but Jesus went willingly to his fate. By being falsely accused, convicted, sentenced and executed, he trumps Death and is able to offer redemption to all who will accept it. Prove it. Disprove it. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:27:47 AM EDT
[#40]
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In short.....Jesus is God and He knows more about it than the Jewish theologians. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm pretty sure the sin he supposedly died for was the original sin, not the I checked out my neighbor's wife's ass today sin. I'm not sure about Roman Catholic doctrine, but Protestants believe Jesus paid for ALL sins, not just original sin. IIRC jews don't have a concept of original sin. jesus was a jew. what gives? In short.....Jesus is God and He knows more about it than the Jewish theologians. right. it's magic. 'cause god. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:28:12 AM EDT
[#41]
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Let me 'splain it for ya'. There is this God who was tryin' to get folks to "get it". Though He gave His all to the folks He created with free will, they weren't always makin' good choices with that free will, apples, sins, lookin' back at the burning city, etc. So, (already knowin' all this ahead of time) He goes like, "Look y'all. Ya' ain't gettin' it. Just to show y'all just how much I mean it, complete salvation and all, I'll give to you folks what surely you can understand as my most precious thing, my Son, knowin' fully that y'alls fool selves' are gonna' kill Him. What else more can I do to prove My love and offer of salvation?" So there He was, the most perfect human ever, wise and all, doin' miricles and all, washin' OUR feet and all. What a gift was He given by God to prove it when He meant universal salvation! Then we go an kill Him. God knew it was gonna' happen, but He gave Him anyway just to prove his point. Now, anyone like Ti22_4788 who posted "The bible is a fictional story, the Star Wars of the Dark ages. All the religions were created to make people feel better about the life they don't understand. Just believe the parts that will make you feel better. And don't forget to donate to the church." can't say they were never told when they experience the second comin' of Christ. How much more obvious must He make it? well, i better get on the bandwagon. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:28:29 AM EDT
[#42]
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Disprove it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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He was sinless and therefore not subject to death which are the wages of sin. He, being divine could have called legions of Angles to protect him. Yes Pilate ordered him executed but Jesus went willingly to his fate. By being falsely accused, convicted, sentenced and executed, he trumps Death and is able to offer redemption to all who will accept it. Prove it. Disprove it. Im not asserting a belief or idea as fact. The burden of proof is on the person claiming the fact. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:29:03 AM EDT
[#43]
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He was sinless and therefore not subject to death which are the wages of sin. He, being divine could have called legions of Angles to protect him. Yes Pilate ordered him executed but Jesus went willingly to his fate. By being falsely accused, convicted, sentenced and executed, he trumps Death and is able to offer redemption to all who will accept it. FPNI |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:29:20 AM EDT
[#44]
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right. it's magic. 'cause god. Are you always this angry? |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:29:49 AM EDT
[#45]
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Pilate, a Roman, washed his hands and sealed the fate. Pilate TRIED to release Jesus Christ, instead the Jewish people would have rioted so Barabbas, was released as per custom. It was the call of the people Jesus was sent to save which sealed His fate. Just like Judas Iscariot who was one of the twelve that sold Jesus for silver coins. And the Jewish people sold Jesus to death for their own earthly reasons as they did not understand the meaning of scripture, only living on the words. Remember, we have the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. In the same, we have the letter of the Word and the Spirit. Living on the letter of the Word will eventually bring trouble to you as scripture has been translated many times. Language evolves. To them, they understand it perfectly. The idea of a "son of God" is blasphemous to them. There is only ONE god. Only Christians interpret their words to mean otherwise. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:30:03 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryAnd be sure to understand that purgatory is strictly a Roman Catholic doctrine. Protestants do not believe in it at all. Either Jesus has paid for all of my sins completely, or He was not enough. I do not have anything to contribute to my salvation. As Jesus said, "It is finished." |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:30:17 AM EDT
[#47]
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So Moses, Abraham, Daniel, etc... all believed in the same god and carried out his will but none of them get to be in heaven because far in the future another group of pepole decided to re-write the rules? Or perhaps they were in heaven, then cast out after Jesus came? Or they just did all these things for god and believed just as he asked them to do and then they got nothing in return? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Not trying to stir things up, I've always wondered this. Jesus was persecuted by the Romans right? Pontius Pilate decided his fate, so why do they say Jesus died for our sins when the decision wasn't his? If you are seriously asking, I will explain. The Bible says that Jesus' death and resurrection was planned by God before the foundation of the earth. He had to pay for our sins, as we had no way to pay for them ourselves. But make no mistake........Jesus was in total control, not the Romans, and not the Jews. He was in total control and did what He did to pay for the sins of those that would trust Him. That's why He said, just before He died, "It is all finished". He had completed His task. Happy Easter. If Jesus is the path to salvation, a path that can not exist without him then what happened to all the people (important figures in the Old Testament, etc...) who lived and died before him? Purgatory So Moses, Abraham, Daniel, etc... all believed in the same god and carried out his will but none of them get to be in heaven because far in the future another group of pepole decided to re-write the rules? Or perhaps they were in heaven, then cast out after Jesus came? Or they just did all these things for god and believed just as he asked them to do and then they got nothing in return? "And the serpent shall bruise his heel, and he shall crush the head of the serpent." They had faith in the redeemer to come. And were saved by the same mechanism. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:30:47 AM EDT
[#48]
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When I was a Christian, I never understood it. Pay WHO, exactly? Himself? How does that make any sense? WHO needed to be satisfied? God had to die himself, in order to satisfy himself? You've never had to work your way through a tough problem and make a hard decision? Christ was the Father's way of experiencing our weakness, so he could be humbled as we are yet still without sin. In human terms, there's knowing, then there's experiencing and in doing so, understanding. The biggest difference between a human doing that and the Father doing that is that the Father is guaranteed to make the right decision because His faith unlike ours never even pauses. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:32:21 AM EDT
[#49]
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I think so. I will defer to Old_Painless on the matter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:If Jesus is the path to salvation, a path that can not exist without him then what happened to all the people (important figures in the Old Testament, etc...) who lived and died before him? Jesus was here when the world was made. In fact, He made it. I believe he was the one who walked with Adam and Eve wasn't he? I think so. I will defer to Old_Painless on the matter. I believe it was. Such appearances of Jesus are called a Theophany, an Old Testament appearance of the Incarnate Christ. |
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Posted: 4/20/2014 10:34:16 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Im not asserting a belief or idea as fact. The burden of proof is on the person claiming the fact. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: He was sinless and therefore not subject to death which are the wages of sin. He, being divine could have called legions of Angles to protect him. Yes Pilate ordered him executed but Jesus went willingly to his fate. By being falsely accused, convicted, sentenced and executed, he trumps Death and is able to offer redemption to all who will accept it. Prove it. Disprove it. Im not asserting a belief or idea as fact. The burden of proof is on the person claiming the fact. |
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