That's like a manager I used to have. He'd say to have a project finished in three days and then expect it 36 hours later.

Catholic Doctrine is that Jesus died for ALL sins.
"original sin" is not just a single sin, but also a state of being in all of us - that we are not perfect, we're not God.
 

After 40 years of being an agnostic I may be a little foggy on the details but the Catholic, Roman and otherwise, take on it is Original sin. I had six years of Benedictine education and parochial Catechism before that. And yes to an earlier question, an infant who has not been baptized can not enter heaven, technically. That and all the innocent children who were not Christians being barred from Heaven were a couple of things that turned me away from the Church.

I've always wondered about the sincerity of His, "death".  

It was more of a three day time-out, and he knew it.  That's a whole lot less significant than any of us, "dieing".

"Death", to you or me, is a sucky proposition, but "death" to Him, was essentially temporary.

What are you saying you think I was thinking when I said what you think I said?

If Jesus is the path to salvation, a path that can not exist without him then what happened to all the people (important figures in the Old Testament, etc...) who lived and died before him?

 
































 

Playing the devils advocate here, but it has always irked me that people say that god sacrificed his only son to pay for the sins of humanity.
To me, a true sacrifice would have been if jesus died on the cross, and never rose again.

i understand that humanity needed to see Jesus rise again, otherwise we never would have believe that if we asked forgiveness and received it we would go to heaven. Let's call a spade a spade though.

There was NOTHING temporary about his burden on that cross.  But that is something you need to read about for yourself.  

 

Guilt trip

"But supposing God became a man - suppose our human nature which can suffer and die was amalgamated with God's nature in one person - then that person could help us.  He could surrender His will, and suffer and die, because He was man; and He could do it perfectly because He was God.  You and I can go through this process only if God does it in us; but God can do it only if He becomes man.  Our attempts at this dying will succeed only if we men share in God's dying, just as our thinking can succeed only because it is a drop out of the ocean of His intelligence: but we cannot share God's dying unless God dies; and he cannot die except by being a man.  That is the sense in which He pays our debt, and suffers for us what He Himself need not suffer at all."

C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

Please read up on the Trinity.  

 

Original Sin    Catholic definition.

Catholic Encyclopedia

What about "Original Sin"?

Didn't being born a man make him born a sinner as the rest of the world?  Why wasn't he subject to original sin?

It is through His death and resurrection we are shown our fate and grace as well.





Not even death will overpower us.





The wages of sin is death - and Jesus, being without sin, nonetheless entered into death for OUR sins, and only He being sinless could be resurrected beyond death for OUR sins. So now that our "wages" for sin have been paid, we will be without sin as we also pass through death and into our own resurrection in Jesus Christ through the grace of the Lord.
 

I'm still not sure what's disingenuous.

We can't pay for our sins, but we must pay to get to heaven right?

Jesus paid for us, and we can accept his gift.

You're making something out of nothing.  He said "can't" and I said "must"

Just because you must doesn't mean you can.

Is there some other way to get to heaven besides paying for sins pre-jesus?

Is there some other way to get to heaven besides paying for sins (by accepting jesus's payment) post-jesus?

Let me 'splain it for ya'.  There is this God who was tryin' to get folks to "get it".  Though He gave His all to the folks He created with free will, they weren't always makin' good choices with that free will, apples, sins, lookin' back at the burning city, etc.

So, (already knowin' all this ahead of time) He goes like, "Look y'all.  Ya' ain't gettin' it.  Just to show y'all just how much I mean it, complete salvation and all, I'll give to you folks what surely you can understand as my most precious thing, my Son, knowin' fully that y'alls fool selves' are gonna' kill Him.  What else more can I do to prove My love and offer of salvation?"

So there He was, the most perfect human ever, wise and all, doin' miricles and all, washin' OUR feet and all.  What a gift was He given by God to prove it when He meant universal salvation!  Then we go an kill Him.  God knew it was gonna' happen, but He gave Him anyway just to prove his point.

Now, anyone like Ti22_4788 who posted "The bible is a fictional story, the Star Wars of the Dark ages. All the religions were created to make people feel better about the life they don't understand. Just believe the parts that will make you feel better.  And don't forget to donate to the church." can't say they were never told when they experience the second comin' of Christ.  How much more obvious must He make it?

Happy Easter! HE IS RISEN!!!!

Don't try to apply reason to the bible. You either believe or you don't.

Purgatory

Got to have a hook for people's immortality pipe dreams.

Jesus is the NEW covenant.  

Let me know how that works out for you.

 

So Moses, Abraham, Daniel, etc... all believed in the same god and carried out his will but none of them get to be in heaven because far in the future another group of pepole decided to re-write the rules? Or perhaps they were in heaven, then cast out after Jesus came? Or they just did all these things for god and believed just as he asked them to do and then they got nothing in return?

Or you could just go read it for yourself.

 

I'm well past the age of fairy tales, I'm just curious about that particular detail.

This singular statement is why I'm an objectivist. Volitional conciousness, and reason, out the window.
Happy Easter (from a former catholic).

In the beginning God created everything. At one point Adam disobeyed God and "SIN" entered the world. Sin is the NATURE into which we are all born. This is why you don't need to teach a child to be bad. They will automatically be selfish. This nature is what causes us to commit "SINS". Think of sins as "Crimes" against God. So in essence a CRIME is "any act or omission forbidden by God" There are some who believe that there are worse sins that others. In reality all sins are equally bad. Since this nature lives within us we are predisposed to commit sins.

Now, some folks raised in church will commit sins but may not go any lower than say, cheating or a lie now and then. While others are the most selfish human beings you will meet. They will do evil because they want to. In the end it does not matter how many or for how long you sin just the fact that this nature continues in you is what separates you from God's presence in your life. Before Christ, God entered into a Covenant with Abraham. God allowed the Children of Israel to sacrifice lambs and bullocks for their own sins. Now these lambs weren't the worst lambs or the old or sick. No, they were lambs "without spot or blemish".  God had ordained from the first that "Without the shedding of blood" there is no forgiveness of sins. So every year the families of the Old Testament would sacrifice to seek forgiveness. God realized that this was not enough because there was the rest of the world which, at that time, had no avenue for forgiveness.  

So, God ordained that he would come in the form of man "Emanuel" meaning God with us. He was ordained from the beginning to be sacrificed. Jesus came and lived his life on earth without sin. You see, the Sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish. In the end, his destiny was to die. The night of his betrayal Jesus with in the Garden of Gethsemane praying. The "human" side of him was in a quandary as to whether this was the Father's plan for him to die this way. In the end he submitted himself to the soldiers and was ultimately killed on the cross. Thus the law was fulfilled "Without the shedding of Blood there is no forgiveness."

There is a huge difference from the original sacrifices and the Death of Jesus. See, the sacrifice of a lamb did not Deliver anyone from the bondage of Sin. God choose to forgive because of the obedience these folks made be their sacrifice. Jesus death was another matter.

When Adam sinned, we all became sinners. How? Well think of it this way. My last name is Chaves, because my dad is Chaves as was his father and his father and his before him. I can change my name to Smith but I am a Chavez because I have no Smith blood. So I act like Chavez and have Chavez looks as well as be susceptible to Chavez health issues. So, the first Adam brought SIN into the world.

Jesus died but didn't stay dead. On the third day he rose from the dead and ascended to Heaven to sit at the Right hand of the Father. So what was the significance of his resurrection and ascendance to Heaven? He took the keys of Death, Hell, and the Grave from Satan. These keys are the same that Adam caused Satan to have when he disobeyed God. So Jesus is the Second Adam. This is why you will hear Christians talking about being "Born again". You are born the first time into the flesh. But, you must receive the forgiveness of Christ and be born into his Kingdom by the Spirit or by Faith. The Bible says, A man that is in Christ is a new creation. All the old things pass away and everything is new. So by believing in Christ's sacrifice and believing that yours sins are forgiven, you will be delivered from the bondage of Sin. Once this happens you will not be powerless to stop certain things in your life. You may be the most disciplined of people  and work out everyday, and never give into your flesh. But if you receive not his forgiveness then you are lost in your SIN.  Remember sins are not only of the flesh. They are not only ACTS but also OMISSIONS. Being deceitful or uncaring when you should be kind. Not helping your fellow man. These are also sins.

well this is the easiest way I know to explain God's plan for your Salvation from SIN and your forgiveness for your SINS.

Pilate, a Roman, washed his hands and sealed the fate.  Pilate TRIED to release Jesus Christ, instead the Jewish people would have rioted so Barabbas, was released as per custom.



It was the call of the people Jesus was sent to save which sealed His fate.  Just like Judas Iscariot who was one of the twelve that sold Jesus for silver coins.  And the Jewish people sold Jesus to death for their own earthly reasons as they did not understand the meaning of scripture, only living on the words.



Remember, we have the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.  In the same, we have the letter of the Word and the Spirit.  Living on the letter of the Word will eventually bring trouble to you as scripture has been translated many times.  Language evolves.

       
 

Why do you care if you don't believe. You are being a little to obvious.  

This, so this!!!!!!!!

 

As I said, I'm curious. Just because I don't believe it doesn't mean I don't care to hear how it supposedly works. I'm just not going to go engage in some bible study session to try and find an answer.

Do you really believe that the person named Jesus who was crucified around 2,000 years ago both lived a sinless life and had the ability to call down an army of angels to protect him? I find that fascinating that people can believe such things.

Well that seems to be a fine definition for the word Trolling.  I don't think I could have explained it any better!  Thank you for your help with that.  I didn't even realize I was looking for that definition.  Run along with your Boba Fet doll.  Luke is waiting in a canyon somewhere.

 
 

I find it fascinating you can possibly believe a different explanation.  

 

no, no I did not.

I thought the whole Heaven/Hell thing was supposed as a reward and punishment system for virtues and sins?

Thank you for the explanation.

In some cults there is that version.  But is not truth as it is written it is a distorted image created by men.  

 

See, Old Painless answered my question and I thanked him. I wasn't looking to troll him, just to learn by what mechanism the Christian tradition handles the pre-Christian prophets who believed in the same god and carried out his work. Old Painless actually explained it in his own words, and made references to an example in the scripture. You, on the other hand, just seem to regurgitate circular logic and brand anyone not satisfied by that as a troll.

My apologies if you are seriously asking.  I am making a mistake of assuming most questions are trolling.  That shows what a flawed man I am.  Again my apologies if you are serious in this discussion.

 

I'm happy to troll in most religion threads, but in this case I was genuinely interested in how it worked. I still don't believe in any of it, but I do like to learn about the traditions.

And also note that while Jesus lived as a man for 30+ years on Earth, he WAS and IS and ALWAYS will BE.  The Trinity as I read it.