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Posted: 10/23/2013 3:55:40 PM EDT
[#1]
kill it with fire.
EVERYTHING the govt does turns to SHIT, and we get the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we're told we're gonna get. if they had taken all the $$$$$ they've wasted so far, and distributed checks to every breathing American, everyone could afford to buy medical insurance under the old system. may the fuck be upon them all.... burn it ........burn it all to the ground..... |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 3:59:08 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Water boiling too quickly, frogs starting to notice. Better turn it up slower. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:00:25 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
delay until after midterms.......I didnt understand why in the world repubs wanted delay to begin with The next wave of lawsuits moving through the federal courts now generally deal with the unfair and haphazard way in the which the law is being implemented. After all, if the administration not implementing DOMA was grounds to throw it out... |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:02:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so...why didn't he agree to a delay during the shutdown.... because if he did then the republicans would get the glory for easing the burden for the american people. now obama is going to take the credit for that |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:03:10 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NH Dim Sen. Shaheen was just saying it wasn't right to penalize people for not signing up given all the problems. When you have lackeys like her abandoning you, you need to do something. Shaheen needs to choke on a bag of dicks........AIDS infested dicks!!! |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:04:09 PM EDT
[#6]
I won't believe it til I see it.
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:08:03 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: that's not true. insurance companies can't just drop people. they can cancel policies but at the same time they must offer a replacement plan that may (and in most cases does) have different benefits and different rates. the only ones flat out cancelling coverage are carriers who are getting out of the business and exiting the market. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Trey Gowdy is part of this. He is no RINO. From my understanding, it just says that you won't pay a fine for not signing up by 12:00pm 12/31/13. They are just delaying the deadline date. All else will be the same. Uh, no. The insurance companies have sent notices and dropped millions of people, effective 12/31. Mostly individual policies. These people won't have insurance on January 1st. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1547922_.html&page=1&anc=bottom#bottom that's not true. insurance companies can't just drop people. they can cancel policies but at the same time they must offer a replacement plan that may (and in most cases does) have different benefits and different rates. the only ones flat out cancelling coverage are carriers who are getting out of the business and exiting the market. Obama's extending the mandate date because the exchange won't be ready. The replacement plans are on the exchange. From the link: "The customers who have to change policies can shop on the Health Insurance Marketplace as soon as the bugs are fixed. Florida Blue has a lot of plans on the exchange." |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:09:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Obama's extending the mandate date because the exchange won't be ready. The replacement plans are on the exchange. From the link: "The customers who have to change policies can shop on the Health Insurance Marketplace as soon as the bugs are fixed. Florida Blue has a lot of plans on the exchange." Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Trey Gowdy is part of this. He is no RINO. From my understanding, it just says that you won't pay a fine for not signing up by 12:00pm 12/31/13. They are just delaying the deadline date. All else will be the same. Uh, no. The insurance companies have sent notices and dropped millions of people, effective 12/31. Mostly individual policies. These people won't have insurance on January 1st. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1547922_.html&page=1&anc=bottom#bottom that's not true. insurance companies can't just drop people. they can cancel policies but at the same time they must offer a replacement plan that may (and in most cases does) have different benefits and different rates. the only ones flat out cancelling coverage are carriers who are getting out of the business and exiting the market. Obama's extending the mandate date because the exchange won't be ready. The replacement plans are on the exchange. From the link: "The customers who have to change policies can shop on the Health Insurance Marketplace as soon as the bugs are fixed. Florida Blue has a lot of plans on the exchange." I meant the individual mandate deadline for fines. Sorry! 
Thanks 74HC! 
OOPS! I meant Rubio, not Gowdy. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:15:33 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
that's not true. insurance companies can't just drop people. they can cancel policies but at the same time they must offer a replacement plan that may (and in most cases does) have different benefits and different rates. the only ones flat out cancelling coverage are carriers who are getting out of the business and exiting the market. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Trey Gowdy is part of this. He is no RINO. From my understanding, it just says that you won't pay a fine for not signing up by 12:00pm 12/31/13. They are just delaying the deadline date. All else will be the same. Uh, no. The insurance companies have sent notices and dropped millions of people, effective 12/31. Mostly individual policies. These people won't have insurance on January 1st. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1547922_.html&page=1&anc=bottom#bottom that's not true. insurance companies can't just drop people. they can cancel policies but at the same time they must offer a replacement plan that may (and in most cases does) have different benefits and different rates. the only ones flat out cancelling coverage are carriers who are getting out of the business and exiting the market. What you described is dropping people, effectively. Surely, you've written quotes for customers regarding business you do not wish to get? |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:17:08 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
I suggest a 10 year delay. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/obamacare-mandate-may-be-delayed-2013-10-23?link=MW_home_latest_news The article says he is not delaying the individual mandate, but just the IRS penalty for not having insurance. You should correct your subject. Insurance companies still must drop policies that do not comply with Obamacare, and offer policies that do. In short, people are still going to get dropped. O's FUBARcare. Also, Obama cannot legally do this either. He needs Congress to pass legislation. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:22:24 PM EDT
[#11]
eventually after you've kicked the can down the road far enough.the string wont let you kick it anymore
i guess Democrats dont want people to see the epic failure that obamacare is gonna be until after the election |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:30:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Whatever they come up with will crash too.
.gov, remember it doesn't have to work as long as you do. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:37:45 PM EDT
[#13]
I think it is designed to fail, so that government single payer system can sweep in and save the day.
But I also have a hard time believing they're that smart enough to have orchestrated such a ruse. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:38:58 PM EDT
[#14]
Where the hell does he get the right to do this ? Its settled law as the liberals keep saying it. Enforce all of it, or repeal it.
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:42:13 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I hope that this whole debacle sinks the democratic party so low that it never recovers. I'm tired of all of these bleeeding heart types. A pack of pissed off wolves (figurative) needs to be let loose on the American public for entertaining this nonsense in the first place. Buncha thieves. It won't happen, it is the republican party that is sinking. A delay is a bad thing. The democrats only want a delay to assist them in the midterms and possibly regain the house. If they mandate is played out, more people will be rightfully pissed off at the democrats. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:44:50 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Obama's extending the mandate date because the exchange won't be ready. The replacement plans are on the exchange. From the link: "The customers who have to change policies can shop on the Health Insurance Marketplace as soon as the bugs are fixed. Florida Blue has a lot of plans on the exchange." Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Trey Gowdy is part of this. He is no RINO. From my understanding, it just says that you won't pay a fine for not signing up by 12:00pm 12/31/13. They are just delaying the deadline date. All else will be the same. Uh, no. The insurance companies have sent notices and dropped millions of people, effective 12/31. Mostly individual policies. These people won't have insurance on January 1st. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1547922_.html&page=1&anc=bottom#bottom that's not true. insurance companies can't just drop people. they can cancel policies but at the same time they must offer a replacement plan that may (and in most cases does) have different benefits and different rates. the only ones flat out cancelling coverage are carriers who are getting out of the business and exiting the market. Obama's extending the mandate date because the exchange won't be ready. The replacement plans are on the exchange. From the link: "The customers who have to change policies can shop on the Health Insurance Marketplace as soon as the bugs are fixed. Florida Blue has a lot of plans on the exchange." I know what the article says. What I'm saying is that the laws that regulate how insurers can cancel policies are such that they can't just kick people out into the cold and say "go shopping on the exchange". Most likley these folks got a letter that says: your current plan, form XYZ, is being canceled and replaced with this obamacare compliant policy ABC. Your new benefits are ...., your new rates is $$$ and is due by mm/dd/yyyy. Please call us if you have any questions. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:47:22 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fuck delaying this shit. Abandon it. For better or worse, we will have a single payer system within a generation. As the costs continue to skyrocket, assuming the dems regain control of both houses of congress, the public option will be put back in due to the public outcry. Once that happens the private insurers, for the most part, will fold and you'll have a single payer system with some private insurance companies who cater to those who have money and don't want to wait in line. The die is cast on this issue. The public has spoken. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:49:45 PM EDT
[#18]
Of course he is saying this, and so are ALL THE DEMS UP FOR RE-ELECTION.
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:50:22 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What you described is dropping people, effectively. Surely, you've written quotes for customers regarding business you do not wish to get? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Trey Gowdy is part of this. He is no RINO. From my understanding, it just says that you won't pay a fine for not signing up by 12:00pm 12/31/13. They are just delaying the deadline date. All else will be the same. Uh, no. The insurance companies have sent notices and dropped millions of people, effective 12/31. Mostly individual policies. These people won't have insurance on January 1st. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1547922_.html&page=1&anc=bottom#bottom that's not true. insurance companies can't just drop people. they can cancel policies but at the same time they must offer a replacement plan that may (and in most cases does) have different benefits and different rates. the only ones flat out cancelling coverage are carriers who are getting out of the business and exiting the market. What you described is dropping people, effectively. Surely, you've written quotes for customers regarding business you do not wish to get? not in sales, so no haven't written quotes. what's different about this is that the insurer can't pick and choose who they cancel. they can pick plans and cancel them. in that case everyone who has such a plan loses it, both healthy and sick. and the insurer has to offer replacement coverage (and they can't vary that offered coverage by person) if they intend to stay in the market. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:51:18 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
I suggest a 10 year delay. http://www.marketwatch.com/story/obamacare-mandate-may-be-delayed-2013-10-23?link=MW_home_latest_news I suggest a 100 billion year delay, or its implemented right after our sun goes nova, which ever comes first. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:51:24 PM EDT
[#21]
The law has already thrown markets and insurance plans into chaos.
So now we have all the incompetence of a government-run program without any of the services that it's supposed to deliver! Sort of a remarkable achievement, I guess.  |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:53:17 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The sorry bastards could not hammer this abortion through hard enough or fast enough and now they want quarter. Bullshit...Let the chips fall as they may and let the public see what a joke this whole legislation was. Exactly. No delay, make them pay. 
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:54:00 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so...why didn't he agree to a delay during the shutdown.... This.... |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 4:58:22 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
so...why didn't he agree to a delay during the shutdown.... Because he would rather make new law himself that follow the constitution and just sign laws that are passed by congress. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:01:36 PM EDT
[#25]
What gives him the right to decide what part of a law gets enforced and what part doesn't? He is not the fucking king. How about equal protection under the law instead of healthcare law for individuals and small business but not for unions and large corporations? Impeach the asshole.
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:06:17 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What gives him the right to decide what part of a law gets enforced and what part doesn't? He is not the fucking king. How about equal protection under the law instead of healthcare law for individuals and small business but not for unions and large corporations? Impeach the asshole. "We won." 
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:08:20 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not true. Health insurance is a competitive business. Some company would lower rates to remove all the extra cost that was loaded in because of obamacare, and then they would win market share. people say this all the time, but it really wouldn't help all that much. where we need more competition is in the provider side. provider charges are the biggest driver of insurance prices. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Doesn't matter to me. BCBS already raised the rate 300.00/month and added a co-pay for my new affordable policy. Even if the ACA is repealed and abandoned the insurance companies will still charge the higher rates. Not true. Health insurance is a competitive business. Some company would lower rates to remove all the extra cost that was loaded in because of obamacare, and then they would win market share. allowed insurance companies to compete across state lines. people say this all the time, but it really wouldn't help all that much. where we need more competition is in the provider side. provider charges are the biggest driver of insurance prices. The provider doesn't set the price for services, the insurance company does. If a PPO allows $80 for an office visit and you have two different in network physicians, one billing at $100 and one at $500, they both get reimbursed $80 for the office visit. I fail to see how provider charges affect insurance prices. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:10:41 PM EDT
[#28]
He sure is wishy washy.
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:13:02 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I fail to see how provider charges affect insurance prices. key word. that's like saying "I fail to see how the price of wheat affects pasta prices". |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:14:26 PM EDT
[#30]
If you don't have insurance by the end of March you get a penalty on your taxes in April. Midterms are in November Now, all of a sudden, the dems want the penalty delayed. You can do the math. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:15:07 PM EDT
[#31]
This cock sucker Obama and his shit has got to go.
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:16:15 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The provider doesn't set the price for services, the insurance company does. If a PPO allows $80 for an office visit and you have two different in network physicians, one billing at $100 and one at $500, they both get reimbursed $80 for the office visit. I fail to see how provider charges affect insurance prices. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Doesn't matter to me. BCBS already raised the rate 300.00/month and added a co-pay for my new affordable policy. Even if the ACA is repealed and abandoned the insurance companies will still charge the higher rates. Not true. Health insurance is a competitive business. Some company would lower rates to remove all the extra cost that was loaded in because of obamacare, and then they would win market share. allowed insurance companies to compete across state lines. people say this all the time, but it really wouldn't help all that much. where we need more competition is in the provider side. provider charges are the biggest driver of insurance prices. The provider doesn't set the price for services, the insurance company does. If a PPO allows $80 for an office visit and you have two different in network physicians, one billing at $100 and one at $500, they both get reimbursed $80 for the office visit. I fail to see how provider charges affect insurance prices. non smartass answer: A ppo is a network. Which is a list of providers with which the insurance company has negotiated rates for services. key word there negotiate. the providers negotiate for higher prices, the insurance company negotiates for lower prices. they meet somewhere in the middle. the insurance company then takes this list of prices. estimates how many people they will insure, and how many of each of the services on that list they expect to have to pay for. this results in an average per person cost. load that up a bit for expenses and profit and you have a premium rate. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:16:36 PM EDT
[#33]
The GOP should just make sure that Obamacare stays in development hell until they can repeal it without anyone noticing or caring.
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:18:21 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No way he'd give the Republicans the satisfaction. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
so...why didn't he agree to a delay during the shutdown.... No way he'd give the Republicans the satisfaction. FBHO |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:18:32 PM EDT
[#35]
Of course.
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:18:44 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you don't have insurance by the end of March you get a penalty on your taxes in April. Midterms are in November Now, all of a sudden, the dems want the penalty delayed. You can do the math. the penalty for lack of coverage in 2014 is due with your 2014 taxes (that you file in 2015). 
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:19:23 PM EDT
[#37]
Let me state that today is Wednesday.....and what better day to say, FUCK HIM.....MAY HE CHOKE ON A BOWL OF COCKS!!!!!!!
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:30:16 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
non smartass answer: A ppo is a network. Which is a list of providers with which the insurance company has negotiated rates for services. key word there negotiate. the providers negotiate for higher prices, the insurance company negotiates for lower prices. they meet somewhere in the middle. the insurance company then takes this list of prices. estimates how many people they will insure, and how many of each of the services on that list they expect to have to pay for. this results in an average per person cost. load that up a bit for expenses and profit and you have a premium rate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Doesn't matter to me. BCBS already raised the rate 300.00/month and added a co-pay for my new affordable policy. Even if the ACA is repealed and abandoned the insurance companies will still charge the higher rates. Not true. Health insurance is a competitive business. Some company would lower rates to remove all the extra cost that was loaded in because of obamacare, and then they would win market share. allowed insurance companies to compete across state lines. people say this all the time, but it really wouldn't help all that much. where we need more competition is in the provider side. provider charges are the biggest driver of insurance prices. The provider doesn't set the price for services, the insurance company does. If a PPO allows $80 for an office visit and you have two different in network physicians, one billing at $100 and one at $500, they both get reimbursed $80 for the office visit. I fail to see how provider charges affect insurance prices. non smartass answer: A ppo is a network. Which is a list of providers with which the insurance company has negotiated rates for services. key word there negotiate. the providers negotiate for higher prices, the insurance company negotiates for lower prices. they meet somewhere in the middle. the insurance company then takes this list of prices. estimates how many people they will insure, and how many of each of the services on that list they expect to have to pay for. this results in an average per person cost. load that up a bit for expenses and profit and you have a premium rate. I understand how PPO's operate. Currently, the negotiations are NOT in favor of providers. Lets face it, insurance companies have providers by the balls. They can't afford to drop out of the network. An example of this is Memorial Hospital, local to me, dropped United Healthcare last year as they could not come to an agreement on fees. Four months later, they were forced to sign a new contract with UHC, even though there was not an increase in the fee schedule. Too many of their patients had coverage through UHC. I still don't buy the explanation that provider fees are driving premium costs. There are a lot of factors at play. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:39:58 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An example of this is Memorial Hospital, local to me, dropped United Healthcare last year as they could not come to an agreement on fees. Four months later, they were forced to sign a new contract with UHC, even though there was not an increase in the fee schedule. exactly. UHC had a huge population in that area, and used it to keep prices down. Now imagine the cards reversed and there being one consolidated hospital and dr. system in the area but the insurance coverage divide up among 5 different insurers. Do you think the providers would have been able to negotiate something higher than no increase in fee schedule? more competition between insurers adds power to the provider side of fee negotiations, the side that wants fees higher. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:51:42 PM EDT
[#40]
http://www.rwjf.org/en/research-publications/find-rwjf-research/2012/06/the-impact-of-hospital-consolidation.html
The Impact of Hospital Consolidation Update June 2012 Publisher: Robert Wood Johnson Foundation Publication: The Synthesis Project Author(s): Gaynor M, and Town R This brief is an update of the 2006 synthesis examining the impact of hospital mergers on prices, costs, and quality of care. In addition to examining the literature on hospital consolidation since the 2006 synthesis was published, this update reviews the evidence on physician-hospital consolidation. The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ACA) promotes Accountable Care Organizations (ACOs) and the bundling of payments across providers for an episode of care (“bundled payments”), both of which encourage consolidation between hospitals and physician practices. Key Findings: Hospital consolidation generally results in higher prices. This is true across geographic markets and different data sources. When hospitals merge in already concentrated markets, the price increase can be dramatic, often exceeding 20 percent. Hospital competition improves quality of care. This is true under both administered price systems, such as Medicare and the English National Health Service, and market determined pricing such as the private health insurance market. The evidence is more mixed from studies of market determined systems, however. Physician-hospital consolidation has not led to either improved quality or reduced costs. Studies find that consolidation was primarily for the purpose of enhanced bargaining power with payers, and hence did not lead to true integration. Consolidation without integration does not lead to enhanced performance. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:56:53 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
exactly. UHC had a huge population in that area, and used it to keep prices down. Now imagine the cards reversed and there being one consolidated hospital and dr. system in the area but the insurance coverage divide up among 5 different insurers. Do you think the providers would have been able to negotiate something higher than no increase in fee schedule? more competition between insurers adds power to the provider side of fee negotiations, the side that wants fees higher. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
An example of this is Memorial Hospital, local to me, dropped United Healthcare last year as they could not come to an agreement on fees. Four months later, they were forced to sign a new contract with UHC, even though there was not an increase in the fee schedule. exactly. UHC had a huge population in that area, and used it to keep prices down. Now imagine the cards reversed and there being one consolidated hospital and dr. system in the area but the insurance coverage divide up among 5 different insurers. Do you think the providers would have been able to negotiate something higher than no increase in fee schedule? more competition between insurers adds power to the provider side of fee negotiations, the side that wants fees higher. In theory, that is how it should work, but I think insurance companies have discovered that the ball is in their court. Aetna, Humana, UHC, and Blue Cross are the main insurers in my area. Virtually all physicians are in network with all. Overhead is so out of control that most physicians can't afford to drop any of them. I'm a dentist. Delta Dental actually decreased their fee schedule last year. I am not in a position to drop them or I'd do it in a heartbeat. Due to the economy, I've found that fewer patients are willing to go to an out of network provider as compared to the past. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 5:58:06 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you don't have insurance by the end of March you get a penalty on your taxes in April. Midterms are in November Now, all of a sudden, the dems want the penalty delayed. You can do the math. Exactly. I say leave it alone. I'd rather pay the penalty at this point. Let the democrats own it. |
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Posted: 10/23/2013 6:05:44 PM EDT
[#43]
I knew the obamacare rocket was going to explode right after lift off. I didn't expect to explode while still on the launch pad .
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Posted: 10/23/2013 6:26:46 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.gov, remember it doesn't have to work as long as you do. lol.....that's sigline material stolen 
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Posted: 10/24/2013 9:03:55 AM EDT
[#45]
This is why you should be against any delay in the mandate: http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/obamacare-deadline-delayed-beware-insurance-death-spiral-says-155612417.html
I'm loathe to subscribe to conspiracy, but the belief that the whole point of ACA is to crush the insurance industry might be valid.
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Posted: 10/24/2013 9:04:49 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No way he'd give the Republicans the satisfaction. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
so...why didn't he agree to a delay during the shutdown.... No way he'd give the Republicans the satisfaction. That. Do you even politics, bro? |
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Posted: 10/24/2013 9:07:46 AM EDT
[#47]
NOPE it's the law. Don't change it fucker
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Posted: 10/24/2013 9:13:18 AM EDT
[#48]
He is the worst president in my lifetime.
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Posted: 10/24/2013 9:14:29 AM EDT
[#49]
Anarchist! Seditionist! ObamaCare is settled law!
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Posted: 10/24/2013 9:16:55 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I hope that this whole debacle sinks the democratic party so low that it never recovers. I'm tired of all of these bleeeding heart types. A pack of pissed off wolves (figurative) needs to be let loose on the American public for entertaining this nonsense in the first place. Buncha thieves. It won't. They haven't tried single payer yet. What's that saying about rock bottom before recovery? |
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