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Posted: 8/22/2013 1:21:41 PM EDT
Hope this isn't a dup but I couldn't find anything on it yet.








"The Obama administration is working to close a loophole in the nation’s gun laws that allows for some machine guns and sawed-off shotguns to be sold without the buyer submitting fingerprints or photographs."


Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:23:47 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ponger:
Hope this isn't a dup but I couldn't find anything on it yet.




NFA Trusts




"The Obama administration is working to close a loophole in the nation’s gun laws that allows for some machine guns and sawed-off shotguns to be sold without the buyer submitting fingerprints or photographs."


View Quote


fucking great. I JUST spent $400 on a trust.

Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:24:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:25:29 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2013 1:57:30 PM EDT by hiyaboa]

FBHO
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:25:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:26:09 PM EDT
Loophole = Freedom.

Everyone was completely aware of how the process would work when the rules were originally drafted.

Oh well, at least all these gangbangers won't be able to go out and make a Quicken trust so they can pay $15000 for a machine gun legally anymore.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:26:21 PM EDT
Sounds fine and dandy till the Chief of Police decides he doesn't want to sign of on it, then what ? Sounds like an excuse to prevent anymore forms submitted to be approved.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:26:32 PM EDT
NFATCA and Gemtech posted that on facebook earlier.

FUCK THAT SHIT
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:27:51 PM EDT
FBHO sideways
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:28:53 PM EDT
Honestly I'm surprised the trust "loophole" wasn't closed years ago. It's not like Uncle Sam to leave a barn door like that open for so long.

I don't have a dog in this race; state doesn't allow NFA. Nor does my checking account.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:28:56 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SandWMandP15Tee:
Sounds fine and dandy till the Chief of Police decides he doesn't want to sign of on it, then what ? Sounds like an excuse to prevent anymore forms submitted to be approved.
View Quote

I haven't read anything on it recently, but part of the whole rule review thing was supposed to be the elimination of the CLEO signoff. Don't know if that's a part of what's being referenced in the article.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:29:40 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MarkNH:

FBHO
View Quote



And Eric Holder.....
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:29:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/23/2013 4:44:30 AM EDT by EV1LblackRIFLE]
FUCK my local sheriff is a dick

ETA:I have read it again thanks to SandWMandP15Tee
I was retarded on not reading the whole thing
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:29:59 PM EDT
However, an online notice said that it will require "responsible persons” designated by the legal trusts to submit forms, photographs and fingerprints to the ATF and forwarded to the local chief police officer. The rule will also define the term "responsible person.”

The new rule will only apply to sale of machine guns, silencers and similar firearms for which the AFT has special restrictions.

According to reports, the number of applications to transfer restricted guns to trusts has skyrocketed in the recent years, to more than 39,000 last year.

The REAL reason why they want to implement this new legislature.


Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:32:03 PM EDT
FBHO cunt dick brain asshole bastard fucking commie.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:32:10 PM EDT
Time to go get another can.... BRB..... In a year.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:33:27 PM EDT
Is there actual legislation on this horseshit? Or is he just going to will this "loophole" away? We need to contact lawmakers and tell them NO.

I know this is preaching to the choir, but what criminal is going to make a trust, pay 15000 for a MG, then wait 8 months for the stamp. Yeah, it's for the children, pick up that can.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:33:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2013 1:34:24 PM EDT by SandWMandP15Tee]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By EV1LblackRIFLE:
FUCK my local sheriff is a dick
View Quote

DOJ/ATF RIN: 1140-AA43 Publication ID: 2012
Title: Background Checks for Principal Officers of Corporations, Trusts, and Other Legal Entities With Respect to the Making or Transferring of a National Firearms Act Firearm
Abstract: The Department of Justice is proposing to amend the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) regarding the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act. The proposed regulations would (1) add a definition for the term "responsible person"; (2) require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form, and to submit photographs and fingerprints; (3) require that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the maker or transferee is located; and (4) eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by the CLEO.
Agency: Department of Justice(DOJ) Priority: Other Significant
RIN Status: Previously published in the Unified Agenda Agenda Stage of Rulemaking: Proposed Rule Stage
Major: No Unfunded Mandates: No
CFR Citation: 27 CFR 479
Legal Authority: 26 USC 7805
Legal Deadline: None
Timetable: <th bgcolor="#CCCCCC" abbr="Action" scope="col" id="action">Action</th> <th bgcolor="#CCCCCC" abbr="Date" scope="col" id="date">Date</th> <th bgcolor="#CCCCCC" abbr="FR" scope="col" id="FRC">FR Cite</th>
NPRM 07/00/2013
Regulatory Flexibility Analysis Required: No Government Levels Affected: None
Small Entities Affected: No Federalism: No
Included in the Regulatory Plan: No
RIN Data Printed in the FR: No
Agency Contact:
Brenda R. Friend
Attorney
Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
99 New York Avenue, NE,
Washington, DC 20226
Phone:202 648-8408

<form id="id_leaveregs_form" action="/public/reginfo/leaveReginfo.jsp" method="post"> </form>
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Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:33:46 PM EDT
Sounds like they're bringing the rules for trusts in line with the rules for individual transfers. It would still make sense to buy thingson a trust, that way you don't need a Form 5 to pass it on to your heirs.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:34:02 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Keasbeynights:
Is there actual legislation on this horseshit? Or is he just going to will this "loophole" away? We need to contact lawmakers and tell them NO.

I know this is preaching to the choir, but what criminal is going to make a trust, pay 15000 for a MG, then wait 8 months for the stamp. Yeah, it's for the children, pick up that can.
View Quote

Basically the ATF gets to make up rules as they go.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:34:55 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By EV1LblackRIFLE:
FUCK my local sheriff is a dick
View Quote


This
Ours will not sign off on anything!
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:35:17 PM EDT
Watch, people will line up to get them done now!!!
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:35:56 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Zcwilkins:

Basically the ATF gets to make up rules as they go.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Zcwilkins:
Originally Posted By Keasbeynights:
Is there actual legislation on this horseshit? Or is he just going to will this "loophole" away? We need to contact lawmakers and tell them NO.

I know this is preaching to the choir, but what criminal is going to make a trust, pay 15000 for a MG, then wait 8 months for the stamp. Yeah, it's for the children, pick up that can.

Basically the ATF gets to make up rules as they go.

FBHO and FTATF.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:36:10 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By EV1LblackRIFLE:
FUCK my local sheriff is a dick
View Quote
That's even better. He doesn't need to sign anything and can't do anything to stop it. Send him a pic with a big shit eatin grin.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:36:11 PM EDT
Old news. This has been in the works for awhile. You will have to submit prints with the trust and the CLEO signoff will go away for the individual route.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:37:00 PM EDT
So how are we to go about this new e-file setup? If trusts have to have fingerprints and CLEO they won't work right?

From what I understand, that's why individual Forms can't be e-filed at this time.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:37:01 PM EDT
It doesn't require you to obtain approval from the Chief of Police, just lets him know. So lets say he decides to drop by one day with the local SRT team to make sure everything is in order.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:37:05 PM EDT
I wonder if such rule changes would stand a court challenge. SC gave 'personhood' to corporations in 1888 or so. The unintended consequence of changing such rules willy nilly may prove interesting.


Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:37:45 PM EDT
More hassles for the law abiding person.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:38:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ponger:
Hope this isn't a dup but I couldn't find anything on it yet.




NFA Trusts




"The Obama administration is working to close a loophole in the nation’s gun laws that allows for some machine guns and sawed-off shotguns to be sold without the buyer submitting fingerprints or photographs."


View Quote


Just contacted my attorney about the matter last week, there is a pretty informative publication on the topic coming out of UF law this week or next week that should shed some light on what we have to do. I'm holding off doing anything for another week or so, then it will be a rush to try to get everything submitted before they start mucking with things
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:41:06 PM EDT
meh seems like a zero sum gain
Most people just set up trusts because the CLEO in their area won't sign anyway
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:42:41 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Goosemaster:
Old news. This has been in the works for awhile. You will have to submit prints with the trust and the CLEO signoff will go away for the individual route.
View Quote


Yep, just hope it is not accomplished before I get my 2 pending Form 4's back from the GayTF
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:46:57 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:47:11 PM EDT
What will happen with existing trusts? If I had a trust setup this week and then submitted a form 1 right after would it still be ok?
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:48:07 PM EDT
Some of the best firearms advice I ever got was to purchase my NFA items as an individual, not through a trust.

I got lucky with a CLEO that signs off no questions asked, excepting a background check run by his office.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:48:13 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
meh seems like a zero sum gain
Most people just set up trusts because the CLEO in their area won't sign anyway
View Quote


The reason I wanted a trust is because it was the easiest way for my wife and I to jointly own an NFA firearm.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:48:20 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Goosemaster:
Old news. This has been in the works for awhile. You will have to submit prints with the trust and the CLEO signoff will go away for the individual route.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Goosemaster:
Old news. This has been in the works for awhile. You will have to submit prints with the trust and the CLEO signoff will go away for the individual route.


Are you sure about this? Does it still get sent to the police chief? Per the article:

However, an online notice said that it will require “responsible persons” designated by the legal trusts to submit forms, photographs and fingerprints to the ATF and forwarded to the local chief police officer. The rule will also define the term “responsible person.”
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:52:29 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By C-4:


Are you sure about this? Does it still get sent to the police chief? Per the article:

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By Goosemaster:
Old news. This has been in the works for awhile. You will have to submit prints with the trust and the CLEO signoff will go away for the individual route.


Are you sure about this? Does it still get sent to the police chief? Per the article:

However, an online notice said that it will require “responsible persons” designated by the legal trusts to submit forms, photographs and fingerprints to the ATF and forwarded to the local chief police officer. The rule will also define the term “responsible person.”


My understanding is that you have to forward the info to your CLEO, but the CLEO sign off is not required. If they don't like it, tough shit. You informed them and that's all you'd be required to do.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:53:48 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RTBA-8:


My understanding is that you have to forward the info to your CLEO, but the CLEO sign off is not required. If they don't like it, tough shit. You informed them and that's all you'd be required to do.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RTBA-8:
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By Goosemaster:
Old news. This has been in the works for awhile. You will have to submit prints with the trust and the CLEO signoff will go away for the individual route.


Are you sure about this? Does it still get sent to the police chief? Per the article:

However, an online notice said that it will require “responsible persons” designated by the legal trusts to submit forms, photographs and fingerprints to the ATF and forwarded to the local chief police officer. The rule will also define the term “responsible person.”


My understanding is that you have to forward the info to your CLEO, but the CLEO sign off is not required. If they don't like it, tough shit. You informed them and that's all you'd be required to do.

Much like you do when you apply for an 03C&R, I'm sure.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:54:16 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By C-4:


Are you sure about this? Does it still get sent to the police chief? Per the article:

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By Goosemaster:
Old news. This has been in the works for awhile. You will have to submit prints with the trust and the CLEO signoff will go away for the individual route.


Are you sure about this? Does it still get sent to the police chief? Per the article:

However, an online notice said that it will require “responsible persons” designated by the legal trusts to submit forms, photographs and fingerprints to the ATF and forwarded to the local chief police officer. The rule will also define the term “responsible person.”


If I recall correctly from when I read the proposed rule change the CLEO will be notified, but they have no say in the matter.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:54:34 PM EDT
This can't be done without Congressional approval. So it could happen, but it's less likely.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:55:12 PM EDT
So will this effect NFA items already procured via trust or all new NFA items procured after a certain date?

-Anyone care to speculate?
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:55:34 PM EDT
A Right does not require a signature.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:56:31 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By andrasik:
This can't be done without Congressional approval. So it could happen, but it's less likely.
View Quote

The signoff requirement was instituted by the ATF. It exists nowhere in the NFA or GCA. They can do this via rulemaking.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:57:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/22/2013 1:59:10 PM EDT by EV1LblackRIFLE]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SandWMandP15Tee:

DOJ/ATF RIN: 1140-AA43 Publication ID: 2012
Title: Background Checks for Principal Officers of Corporations, Trusts, and Other Legal Entities With Respect to the Making or Transferring of a National Firearms Act Firearm
Abstract: The Department of Justice is proposing to amend the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) regarding the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act. The proposed regulations would (1) add a definition for the term "responsible person"; (2) require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form, and to submit photographs and fingerprints; (3) require that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the maker or transferee is located; and (4) eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by the CLEO.
Agency: Department of Justice(DOJ) Priority: Other Significant
RIN Status: Previously published in the Unified Agenda Agenda Stage of Rulemaking: Proposed Rule Stage
Major: No Unfunded Mandates: No
CFR Citation: 27 CFR 479
Legal Authority: 26 USC 7805
Legal Deadline: None
Timetable: <th bgcolor="#CCCCCC" abbr="Action" scope="col" id="action">Action</th> <th bgcolor="#CCCCCC" abbr="Date" scope="col" id="date">Date</th> <th bgcolor="#CCCCCC" abbr="FR" scope="col" id="FRC">FR Cite</th>
NPRM 07/00/2013
Regulatory Flexibility Analysis Required: No Government Levels Affected: None
Small Entities Affected: No Federalism: No
Included in the Regulatory Plan: No
RIN Data Printed in the FR: No
Agency Contact:
Brenda R. Friend
Attorney
Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
99 New York Avenue, NE,
Washington, DC 20226
Phone:202 648-8408

<form id="id_leaveregs_form" action="/public/reginfo/leaveReginfo.jsp" method="post"> </form>
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Originally Posted By SandWMandP15Tee:
Originally Posted By EV1LblackRIFLE:
FUCK my local sheriff is a dick

DOJ/ATF RIN: 1140-AA43 Publication ID: 2012
Title: Background Checks for Principal Officers of Corporations, Trusts, and Other Legal Entities With Respect to the Making or Transferring of a National Firearms Act Firearm
Abstract: The Department of Justice is proposing to amend the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) regarding the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act. The proposed regulations would (1) add a definition for the term "responsible person"; (2) require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form, and to submit photographs and fingerprints; (3) require that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the maker or transferee is located; and (4) eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by the CLEO.
Agency: Department of Justice(DOJ) Priority: Other Significant
RIN Status: Previously published in the Unified Agenda Agenda Stage of Rulemaking: Proposed Rule Stage
Major: No Unfunded Mandates: No
CFR Citation: 27 CFR 479
Legal Authority: 26 USC 7805
Legal Deadline: None
Timetable: <th bgcolor="#CCCCCC" abbr="Action" scope="col" id="action">Action</th> <th bgcolor="#CCCCCC" abbr="Date" scope="col" id="date">Date</th> <th bgcolor="#CCCCCC" abbr="FR" scope="col" id="FRC">FR Cite</th>
NPRM 07/00/2013
Regulatory Flexibility Analysis Required: No Government Levels Affected: None
Small Entities Affected: No Federalism: No
Included in the Regulatory Plan: No
RIN Data Printed in the FR: No
Agency Contact:
Brenda R. Friend
Attorney
Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
99 New York Avenue, NE,
Washington, DC 20226
Phone:202 648-8408

<form id="id_leaveregs_form" action="/public/reginfo/leaveReginfo.jsp" method="post"> </form>
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Thanks,I guess I need to learn to read more
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:57:55 PM EDT
Not that it makes any difference, but what does the actual law have to say?

Is this even something which the President can change by EO? Or does Federal statute only specify prints, CLEO signoff, etc from individuals?
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:58:23 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By HERB13:
So will this effect NFA items already procured via trust or all new NFA items procured after a certain date?

-Anyone care to speculate?
View Quote


An excellent question. Not to mention what will happen to all of the Forms currently pending using trusts...
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 1:59:00 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 2:00:23 PM EDT
Good luck with that. If they stop me using my corporation to buy NFA items, I guess I will just have to become a part of case law.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 2:00:27 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RTBA-8:


An excellent question. Not to mention what will happen to all of the Forms currently pending using trusts...
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By RTBA-8:
Originally Posted By HERB13:
So will this effect NFA items already procured via trust or all new NFA items procured after a certain date?

-Anyone care to speculate?


An excellent question. Not to mention what will happen to all of the Forms currently pending using trusts...



My guess is that if the rule changed now, they'd kick your form back for not having all of the required papers when they finally got to it in 6 or 8 months.

Forward, to Progress. Glorious 5 year plan forms for great gun-owning freedom.
Link Posted: 8/22/2013 2:00:36 PM EDT
FATP

Fuck All The Politicians
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