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ponger
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:21:41 PM EST
Hope this isn't a dup but I couldn't find anything on it yet.








"The Obama administration is working to close a loophole in the nation’s gun laws that allows for some machine guns and sawed-off shotguns to be sold without the buyer submitting fingerprints or photographs."


Life is like a camera, focus on what's important and capture the good times. Develop from the negatives and if things don't work out, take another shot.
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:23:47 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By ponger:
Hope this isn't a dup but I couldn't find anything on it yet.




NFA Trusts




"The Obama administration is working to close a loophole in the nation’s gun laws that allows for some machine guns and sawed-off shotguns to be sold without the buyer submitting fingerprints or photographs."




fucking great. I JUST spent $400 on a trust.

MarkNH
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:24:20 PM EST
FBHO
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hiyaboa
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:25:29 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2013 12:57:30 PM EST by hiyaboa]

FBHO
Zcwilkins
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:25:48 PM EST
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DDiggler
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:26:09 PM EST
Loophole = Freedom.

Everyone was completely aware of how the process would work when the rules were originally drafted.

Oh well, at least all these gangbangers won't be able to go out and make a Quicken trust so they can pay $15000 for a machine gun legally anymore.
Where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master. -Ayn Rand
SandWMandP15Tee
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:26:21 PM EST
Sounds fine and dandy till the Chief of Police decides he doesn't want to sign of on it, then what ? Sounds like an excuse to prevent anymore forms submitted to be approved.
I don't interest myself in "why". I think more often in terms of "when", sometimes "where" ? Always "how much" ?
DaBeamz
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:26:32 PM EST
NFATCA and Gemtech posted that on facebook earlier.

FUCK THAT SHIT
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:27:51 PM EST
FBHO sideways
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:28:53 PM EST
Honestly I'm surprised the trust "loophole" wasn't closed years ago. It's not like Uncle Sam to leave a barn door like that open for so long.

I don't have a dog in this race; state doesn't allow NFA. Nor does my checking account.
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:28:56 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By SandWMandP15Tee:
Sounds fine and dandy till the Chief of Police decides he doesn't want to sign of on it, then what ? Sounds like an excuse to prevent anymore forms submitted to be approved.

I haven't read anything on it recently, but part of the whole rule review thing was supposed to be the elimination of the CLEO signoff. Don't know if that's a part of what's being referenced in the article.
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FreeBear
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:29:40 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By MarkNH:

FBHO



And Eric Holder.....
Is it that we have so often been told that violence is not the answer to everything that we fail to realize it IS the answer to some things?

Nemo Me Impune Lacesset.

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EV1LblackRIFLE
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:29:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/23/2013 3:44:30 AM EST by EV1LblackRIFLE]
FUCK my local sheriff is a dick

ETA:I have read it again thanks to SandWMandP15Tee
I was retarded on not reading the whole thing
SandWMandP15Tee
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:29:59 PM EST
However, an online notice said that it will require "responsible persons” designated by the legal trusts to submit forms, photographs and fingerprints to the ATF and forwarded to the local chief police officer. The rule will also define the term "responsible person.”

The new rule will only apply to sale of machine guns, silencers and similar firearms for which the AFT has special restrictions.

According to reports, the number of applications to transfer restricted guns to trusts has skyrocketed in the recent years, to more than 39,000 last year.

The REAL reason why they want to implement this new legislature.


I don't interest myself in "why". I think more often in terms of "when", sometimes "where" ? Always "how much" ?
hyperjoe
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:32:03 PM EST
FBHO cunt dick brain asshole bastard fucking commie.
AR167
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:32:10 PM EST
Time to go get another can.... BRB..... In a year.
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Keasbeynights
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:33:27 PM EST
Is there actual legislation on this horseshit? Or is he just going to will this "loophole" away? We need to contact lawmakers and tell them NO.

I know this is preaching to the choir, but what criminal is going to make a trust, pay 15000 for a MG, then wait 8 months for the stamp. Yeah, it's for the children, pick up that can.
Freedom and Liberty aren't open to interpretation.
SandWMandP15Tee
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:33:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2013 12:34:24 PM EST by SandWMandP15Tee]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By EV1LblackRIFLE:
FUCK my local sheriff is a dick

DOJ/ATF RIN: 1140-AA43 Publication ID: 2012
Title: Background Checks for Principal Officers of Corporations, Trusts, and Other Legal Entities With Respect to the Making or Transferring of a National Firearms Act Firearm
Abstract: The Department of Justice is proposing to amend the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) regarding the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act. The proposed regulations would (1) add a definition for the term "responsible person"; (2) require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form, and to submit photographs and fingerprints; (3) require that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the maker or transferee is located; and (4) eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by the CLEO.
Agency: Department of Justice(DOJ) Priority: Other Significant
RIN Status: Previously published in the Unified Agenda Agenda Stage of Rulemaking: Proposed Rule Stage
Major: No Unfunded Mandates: No
CFR Citation: 27 CFR 479
Legal Authority: 26 USC 7805
Legal Deadline: None
Timetable: <th bgcolor="#CCCCCC" abbr="Action" scope="col" id="action">Action</th> <th bgcolor="#CCCCCC" abbr="Date" scope="col" id="date">Date</th> <th bgcolor="#CCCCCC" abbr="FR" scope="col" id="FRC">FR Cite</th>
NPRM 07/00/2013
Regulatory Flexibility Analysis Required: No Government Levels Affected: None
Small Entities Affected: No Federalism: No
Included in the Regulatory Plan: No
RIN Data Printed in the FR: No
Agency Contact:
Brenda R. Friend
Attorney
Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
99 New York Avenue, NE,
Washington, DC 20226
Phone:202 648-8408

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I don't interest myself in "why". I think more often in terms of "when", sometimes "where" ? Always "how much" ?
Steve_T_M
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:33:46 PM EST
Sounds like they're bringing the rules for trusts in line with the rules for individual transfers. It would still make sense to buy thingson a trust, that way you don't need a Form 5 to pass it on to your heirs.
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Zcwilkins
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:34:02 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Keasbeynights:
Is there actual legislation on this horseshit? Or is he just going to will this "loophole" away? We need to contact lawmakers and tell them NO.

I know this is preaching to the choir, but what criminal is going to make a trust, pay 15000 for a MG, then wait 8 months for the stamp. Yeah, it's for the children, pick up that can.

Basically the ATF gets to make up rules as they go.
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:34:55 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By EV1LblackRIFLE:
FUCK my local sheriff is a dick


This
Ours will not sign off on anything!
SS109
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:35:17 PM EST
Watch, people will line up to get them done now!!!
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Keasbeynights
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:35:56 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Zcwilkins:
Originally Posted By Keasbeynights:
Is there actual legislation on this horseshit? Or is he just going to will this "loophole" away? We need to contact lawmakers and tell them NO.

I know this is preaching to the choir, but what criminal is going to make a trust, pay 15000 for a MG, then wait 8 months for the stamp. Yeah, it's for the children, pick up that can.

Basically the ATF gets to make up rules as they go.

FBHO and FTATF.
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maximumj
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:36:10 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By EV1LblackRIFLE:
FUCK my local sheriff is a dick
That's even better. He doesn't need to sign anything and can't do anything to stop it. Send him a pic with a big shit eatin grin.
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:36:11 PM EST
Old news. This has been in the works for awhile. You will have to submit prints with the trust and the CLEO signoff will go away for the individual route.
Keasbeynights
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:37:00 PM EST
So how are we to go about this new e-file setup? If trusts have to have fingerprints and CLEO they won't work right?

From what I understand, that's why individual Forms can't be e-filed at this time.
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SandWMandP15Tee
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:37:01 PM EST
It doesn't require you to obtain approval from the Chief of Police, just lets him know. So lets say he decides to drop by one day with the local SRT team to make sure everything is in order.
I don't interest myself in "why". I think more often in terms of "when", sometimes "where" ? Always "how much" ?
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:37:05 PM EST
I wonder if such rule changes would stand a court challenge. SC gave 'personhood' to corporations in 1888 or so. The unintended consequence of changing such rules willy nilly may prove interesting.


VBC
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:37:45 PM EST
More hassles for the law abiding person.
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:38:28 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By ponger:
Hope this isn't a dup but I couldn't find anything on it yet.




NFA Trusts




"The Obama administration is working to close a loophole in the nation’s gun laws that allows for some machine guns and sawed-off shotguns to be sold without the buyer submitting fingerprints or photographs."




Just contacted my attorney about the matter last week, there is a pretty informative publication on the topic coming out of UF law this week or next week that should shed some light on what we have to do. I'm holding off doing anything for another week or so, then it will be a rush to try to get everything submitted before they start mucking with things
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:41:06 PM EST
meh seems like a zero sum gain
Most people just set up trusts because the CLEO in their area won't sign anyway
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RTBA-8
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:42:41 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Goosemaster:
Old news. This has been in the works for awhile. You will have to submit prints with the trust and the CLEO signoff will go away for the individual route.


Yep, just hope it is not accomplished before I get my 2 pending Form 4's back from the GayTF
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krpind
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:46:57 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Bubbatheredneck:
I wonder if such rule changes would stand a court challenge. SC gave 'personhood' to corporations in 1888 or so. The unintended consequence of changing such rules willy nilly may prove interesting.



Ihope if this goes down, that it opens the whole NFA to a lawsuit. How do you make a person responsible for a corporation. The corporation exists beyond any individual. What happens when that person quits? I realize those trusts are different, but legally they are the same.
ARFCOM.....Time well wasted.
Psyber
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:47:11 PM EST
What will happen with existing trusts? If I had a trust setup this week and then submitted a form 1 right after would it still be ok?
Zaminsky
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:48:07 PM EST
Some of the best firearms advice I ever got was to purchase my NFA items as an individual, not through a trust.

I got lucky with a CLEO that signs off no questions asked, excepting a background check run by his office.
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:48:13 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By www-glock19-com:
meh seems like a zero sum gain
Most people just set up trusts because the CLEO in their area won't sign anyway


The reason I wanted a trust is because it was the easiest way for my wife and I to jointly own an NFA firearm.
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:48:20 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Goosemaster:
Old news. This has been in the works for awhile. You will have to submit prints with the trust and the CLEO signoff will go away for the individual route.


Are you sure about this? Does it still get sent to the police chief? Per the article:

However, an online notice said that it will require “responsible persons” designated by the legal trusts to submit forms, photographs and fingerprints to the ATF and forwarded to the local chief police officer. The rule will also define the term “responsible person.”
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RTBA-8
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:52:29 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By Goosemaster:
Old news. This has been in the works for awhile. You will have to submit prints with the trust and the CLEO signoff will go away for the individual route.


Are you sure about this? Does it still get sent to the police chief? Per the article:

However, an online notice said that it will require “responsible persons” designated by the legal trusts to submit forms, photographs and fingerprints to the ATF and forwarded to the local chief police officer. The rule will also define the term “responsible person.”


My understanding is that you have to forward the info to your CLEO, but the CLEO sign off is not required. If they don't like it, tough shit. You informed them and that's all you'd be required to do.
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Keasbeynights
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:53:48 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By RTBA-8:
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By Goosemaster:
Old news. This has been in the works for awhile. You will have to submit prints with the trust and the CLEO signoff will go away for the individual route.


Are you sure about this? Does it still get sent to the police chief? Per the article:

However, an online notice said that it will require “responsible persons” designated by the legal trusts to submit forms, photographs and fingerprints to the ATF and forwarded to the local chief police officer. The rule will also define the term “responsible person.”


My understanding is that you have to forward the info to your CLEO, but the CLEO sign off is not required. If they don't like it, tough shit. You informed them and that's all you'd be required to do.

Much like you do when you apply for an 03C&R, I'm sure.
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Goosemaster
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:54:16 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By Goosemaster:
Old news. This has been in the works for awhile. You will have to submit prints with the trust and the CLEO signoff will go away for the individual route.


Are you sure about this? Does it still get sent to the police chief? Per the article:

However, an online notice said that it will require “responsible persons” designated by the legal trusts to submit forms, photographs and fingerprints to the ATF and forwarded to the local chief police officer. The rule will also define the term “responsible person.”


If I recall correctly from when I read the proposed rule change the CLEO will be notified, but they have no say in the matter.
andrasik
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:54:34 PM EST
This can't be done without Congressional approval. So it could happen, but it's less likely.
The above post is my personal opinion.
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:55:12 PM EST
So will this effect NFA items already procured via trust or all new NFA items procured after a certain date?

-Anyone care to speculate?
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:55:34 PM EST
A Right does not require a signature.
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:56:31 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By andrasik:
This can't be done without Congressional approval. So it could happen, but it's less likely.

The signoff requirement was instituted by the ATF. It exists nowhere in the NFA or GCA. They can do this via rulemaking.
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:57:42 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/22/2013 12:59:10 PM EST by EV1LblackRIFLE]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By SandWMandP15Tee:
Originally Posted By EV1LblackRIFLE:
FUCK my local sheriff is a dick

DOJ/ATF RIN: 1140-AA43 Publication ID: 2012
Title: Background Checks for Principal Officers of Corporations, Trusts, and Other Legal Entities With Respect to the Making or Transferring of a National Firearms Act Firearm
Abstract: The Department of Justice is proposing to amend the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) regarding the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act. The proposed regulations would (1) add a definition for the term "responsible person"; (2) require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form, and to submit photographs and fingerprints; (3) require that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the maker or transferee is located; and (4) eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by the CLEO.
Agency: Department of Justice(DOJ) Priority: Other Significant
RIN Status: Previously published in the Unified Agenda Agenda Stage of Rulemaking: Proposed Rule Stage
Major: No Unfunded Mandates: No
CFR Citation: 27 CFR 479
Legal Authority: 26 USC 7805
Legal Deadline: None
Timetable: <th bgcolor="#CCCCCC" abbr="Action" scope="col" id="action">Action</th> <th bgcolor="#CCCCCC" abbr="Date" scope="col" id="date">Date</th> <th bgcolor="#CCCCCC" abbr="FR" scope="col" id="FRC">FR Cite</th>
NPRM 07/00/2013
Regulatory Flexibility Analysis Required: No Government Levels Affected: None
Small Entities Affected: No Federalism: No
Included in the Regulatory Plan: No
RIN Data Printed in the FR: No
Agency Contact:
Brenda R. Friend
Attorney
Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
99 New York Avenue, NE,
Washington, DC 20226
Phone:202 648-8408

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Thanks,I guess I need to learn to read more
1Andy2
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:57:55 PM EST
Not that it makes any difference, but what does the actual law have to say?

Is this even something which the President can change by EO? Or does Federal statute only specify prints, CLEO signoff, etc from individuals?
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RTBA-8
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:58:23 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By HERB13:
So will this effect NFA items already procured via trust or all new NFA items procured after a certain date?

-Anyone care to speculate?


An excellent question. Not to mention what will happen to all of the Forms currently pending using trusts...
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DV8
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Posted: 8/22/2013 12:59:00 PM EST
When does this go into effect?
Panem et circenses. - Juvenal

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Posted: 8/22/2013 1:00:23 PM EST
Good luck with that. If they stop me using my corporation to buy NFA items, I guess I will just have to become a part of case law.
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1Andy2
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Posted: 8/22/2013 1:00:27 PM EST
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By RTBA-8:
Originally Posted By HERB13:
So will this effect NFA items already procured via trust or all new NFA items procured after a certain date?

-Anyone care to speculate?


An excellent question. Not to mention what will happen to all of the Forms currently pending using trusts...



My guess is that if the rule changed now, they'd kick your form back for not having all of the required papers when they finally got to it in 6 or 8 months.

Forward, to Progress. Glorious 5 year plan forms for great gun-owning freedom.
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DS11M
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Posted: 8/22/2013 1:00:36 PM EST
FATP

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Here, hold my beer....watch this..
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