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Mastadon
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:07:22 AM
[Last Edit: 7/29/2013 3:09:30 AM by Mastadon]
...because their pay and benefit information is public record. Here is a classic example of "Gimme more of everyone else's money" whining from a unionized public school teacher from the hippie town of Asheville, NC:

Link to article in Asheville, NC Citizen-Times

This is an interesting article and I love it when government teachers complain that they aren't earning enough money. Income and benefit data for public school teachers is public information as are the requirements for the various aid programs mentioned in the article. Let’s see how the article’s claims compare to the data…

Buncombe County, NC teacher Lindsay Furst, who claims to be seven-year teaching veteran, claims that she makes $31,000. According to the NC public schools salary schedule, effective July 1, 2012 pay for a minimally-qualified teacher with seven years of experience is $33,030 for a 10-month work year, so I can’t figure how she’s making less than that if she’s a full-time teacher. If she’s a part-time teacher, she earns a minimum of $143.26 per day, which for an 8-hour day is $17.90 per hour.

Compare either of these rates to the Buncombe County, NC average full-time salary of $26,347 for a 12-month work year (according to the US Census Bureau) and I'd say that she’s doing just fine. Even if she’s making the lower-than-allowed rate she quotes, she’s still earning over 17% more than the average worker in her area.

If being paid 17% more than the average North Carolinian for working 20% fewer hours isn’t a sweet enough deal, consider that the above only takes into account base salary—it does not include the rather generous teacher’s state benefits package, which includes zero-cost health insurance (with option to upgrade, see below), 11 paid holidays, a MINIMUM of 14 days (almost three weeks!) of paid annual leave per year, up to 8 days of paid sick leave per year, short- and long-term disability insurance, etc. For those who did the counting on paid leave, NC teachers get up to 33 days (and no fewer than 25 days) of paid absences ON TOP OF only working a 10-month year. I challenge anyone to find a remotely comparable benefits package in the private sector.

Back to the article, which says that Lindsay Furst is married with 2 kids, so she lives in a household of 4. Assuming her husband does not produce any income whatsoever (and I have to ask why if they’re in such dire financial straits), her household of 4 individuals is eligible for Medicaid in NC until they exceed $46,104, so receipt of Medicaid benefits is hardly an indicator of poverty (the federal poverty level for a family of 4 is $23,550 according to HHS).

But, the article says that Furst’s *children* qualify for Medicaid—not the adults. Children under age 6 qualify for Medicaid in NC in families making up to, again, $46,104. The maximum income limit for Medicaid in NC for a family of 4 with children ages 6-18 is $23,052, so if her children are in that age group, at $31,000, Furst’s children do not qualify for Medicaid in NC. In short, the “we’re poor because our kids qualify for Medicaid” argument is very misleading.

Furthermore, NC state employees, including teachers, enjoy the Express Scripts Medicare Prescription Drug Plan as part of their benefits package, so at least that form of “government health assistance” is available to all NC teachers, even those earning the $68,050 annual maximum salary. The teacher’s benefits package also includes health insurance that, at worst, offers a 70/30 payment ratio with a ZERO dollar per month premium paid by the teacher. For less about $22/month, teachers in NC can bump that up to 80/20. Not bad.

As to Furst’s “would have to be swiping an EBT card [my high school teachers would have had a field day with me had I used grammar like this—Furst is an English teacher according to the article]” assertion, the minimum monthly salary installment for a public school teacher in NC is $2,566.67. For a teacher with the 7 years experience that Furst claims, that monthly minimum gross payment is $2752.50. The federal maximum gross monthly salary to be eligible for EBT is $2,498 for a household of 4, so even the lowest paid full-time NC teacher is ineligible for the program.

Furst’s whole story stinks, and I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that we aren’t getting all the facts here.

TL;DR version:

* Teacher claims that NC teacher pay is a travesty.
* As evidence, teacher claims that her children are eligible for Medicaid and that she has an EBT card.
* Publicly available information shows that the "facts" she gave, and that were subsequently reported, are flagrant lies.
* FBHO (nothing to do with the article, just thrown in for good measure)

Sources:

NC Public Schools salary schedule, 2012-2013

Buncombe County, NC average income from the US Census

NC Public Schools HR policy manual benefits explanation

Federal HHS poverty thresholds

NC Teacher Health Care Plan

Federal FDA SNAP (EBT) eligibility requirements
CaptainD
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:15:10 AM
Teachers make well more than than in non-union Texas.
slims_88
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:18:16 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By CaptainD:
Teachers make well more than than in non-union Texas.


I bet the students in those Texas schools perform better on standardized testing, and have a higher GPA and graduation rate as well.
DevilPig
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:19:21 AM
Nc teachers aren't unionized...at least in the traditional sense of the word. Nc is a right to work state.

Also, I do think its ridiculous that they make such crap money for putting up with the nonsense they do.
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:23:55 AM
Police around here don't make much more
Redarts
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:24:21 AM
Oh my god a profession requiring a degree makes slightly more than the average in an area, this is a travesty.

You could have at least picked one of the new england teachers pushing 100k a year, because while I won't say that's shitty money... it's hardly a fortune, especially in Asheville.

Also, in before private schools, govt indoctrination, teachers are all dumb, college is a waste (that will get here, somehow), I work 5736 hours a week and only make x why should they do differently, and so on. Also the repeated implication that teachers do no work, and instantly start and stop working with the school bell.

There are some dumb things out there, and the NC teacher's union is a piece of shit, but I'm hardly going to begrudge someone with a fair bit of experience in their field for asking for more than 30k.

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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:25:25 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By DevilPig:
Nc teachers aren't unionized...at least in the traditional sense of the word. Nc is a right to work state.

Also, I do think its ridiculous that they make such crap money for putting up with the nonsense they do.


DevilPig
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:26:06 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By CuttingEdges:
Originally Posted By DevilPig:
Nc teachers aren't unionized...at least in the traditional sense of the word. Nc is a right to work state.

Also, I do think its ridiculous that they make such crap money for putting up with the nonsense they do.




Do you have friends and family in the NC school system?
BUCC_Guy
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:27:17 AM
Great. Two degrees and I can make 17% more than the average knucklehead in bumfuck County, NC.



Sign me back up for that. I can't wait to grade papers at 11pm, because I'll be rolling in dough.
"I will murder you and make a poncho out of your skin!" DK-Prof
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:29:37 AM
[Last Edit: 7/29/2013 1:30:24 AM by GlutealCleft]
I know three teachers in my neighborhood. Public records say that none of them make less than $70,000. One is over $100,000.

The lowest-paid teacher that I know is a relative, brand-new, first year, only made a little over $30,000.
ElectricSheep556
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:32:37 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
Great. Two degrees and I can make 17% more than the average knucklehead in bumfuck County, NC.



Sign me back up for that. I can't wait to grade papers at 11pm, because I'll be rolling in dough.


So take those two degrees and get a job in the private sector. I'm sure an English major could pull in some serious cash there if they didn't report their tips to the IRS.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
hiyaboa
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:32:46 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
Great. Two degrees and I can make 17% more than the average knucklehead in bumfuck County, NC.



Sign me back up for that. I can't wait to grade papers at 11pm, because I'll be rolling in dough.


An exam of an "B" high school book report for "Night"

"The book night goes want night so good because in the night people was deading. People was pud in fire pit. Lots of thing."

I shit you not, it was so awful I wrote it down and memorized it. I gave the kid an "F" and the teacher pulled me aside and said that was unfair.

Both the scholar and I ended up with a B.
ProGunFemme
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:36:41 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By DevilPig:
Nc teachers aren't unionized...at least in the traditional sense of the word. Nc is a right to work state.

Also, I do think its ridiculous that they make such crap money for putting up with the nonsense they do.


This. Public education is so vulnerable to litigation and other BS from any and all angles. If being a public school teacher simply involved devising curriculum, teaching that curriculum, and administering tests, I would agree that teachers don't really have much to complain about. Especially considering that pay factors in how few days they work throughout the year.

In recent years, though, radical changes have taken place to cripple the state of public education. Look up No Child Left Behind--that's the big one. A teacher is expected to instruct a class of 20+ by catering to the lowest common denominator. All the while the smart kids twiddle their thumbs and get bored off their asses because offering gifted and talented classes to challenge them--as was done back when I was in school--"damages self-esteem."

Furthermore, all disruption is handled with strict zero-tolerance, zero-common-sense policies. Teachers can't grade the way their students deserve because their administrators breathe down their necks with unrealistic pass/fail quotas.

I would NOT take a pay cut to put up with that crap... even if it meant summers off.

When will Atlas shrug?
bagofcrabs65
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:36:46 AM
Want better pay? Don't teach at a public school.

Choices and all that...
BUCC_Guy
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:37:23 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By ElectricSheep556:
Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
Great. Two degrees and I can make 17% more than the average knucklehead in bumfuck County, NC.



Sign me back up for that. I can't wait to grade papers at 11pm, because I'll be rolling in dough.


So take those two degrees and get a job in the private sector. I'm sure an English major could pull in some serious cash there if they didn't report their tips to the IRS.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


I did, and now I pull in over three times what that NC teacher takes. I have dozens of guns, and an art collection centered on 16th-19th century Asian and European items.


While teachers can barely hold down a mortgage... and continually get shit on.
"I will murder you and make a poncho out of your skin!" DK-Prof
GTwannabe
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:37:26 AM
$30k to start? Yeah, that sucks.
I mean if this goes tits up...
FortyFiveAutomatic
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:37:30 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By DevilPig:
Nc teachers aren't unionized...at least in the traditional sense of the word. Nc is a right to work state.

Also, I do think its ridiculous that they make such crap money for putting up with the nonsense they do.


That's no shit. 33k for teaching high school is chump change.
DevilPig
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:39:37 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
Originally Posted By ElectricSheep556:
Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
Great. Two degrees and I can make 17% more than the average knucklehead in bumfuck County, NC.



Sign me back up for that. I can't wait to grade papers at 11pm, because I'll be rolling in dough.


So take those two degrees and get a job in the private sector. I'm sure an English major could pull in some serious cash there if they didn't report their tips to the IRS.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile



I did, and now I pull in over three times what that NC teacher takes. I have dozens of guns, and an art collection centered on 16th-19th century Asian and European items.


While teachers can barely hold down a mortgage... and continually get shit on.


Yep. And I don't understand why so many are ok with it. Just like police or any other public paying job, you get what you pay for. I doubt everyone here has money to send their kids to private school.
costanza
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:41:26 AM
shit, do new teachers qualify for food stamps in NC?
Insert something clever here.
Mastadon
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:42:57 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Redarts:
Oh my god a profession requiring a degree makes slightly more than the average in an area, this is a travesty.

You could have at least picked one of the new england teachers pushing 100k a year, because while I won't say that's shitty money... it's hardly a fortune, especially in Asheville.

Also, in before private schools, govt indoctrination, teachers are all dumb, college is a waste (that will get here, somehow), I work 5736 hours a week and only make x why should they do differently, and so on. Also the repeated implication that teachers do no work, and instantly start and stop working with the school bell.

There are some dumb things out there, and the NC teacher's union is a piece of shit, but I'm hardly going to begrudge someone with a fair bit of experience in their field for asking for more than 30k.



30k is the MINIMUM, as in a day-1 teacher with a BA and a certificate. Pay goes up from there with additional certification, time in, advanced degrees, etc. Also, remember that the average income includes private sector workers with degrees, so it's not like we're just comparing teachers to prison labor or something.

Don't forget that you're talking salary only. That excludes the golden benefits package that teachers enjoy--a MINIMUM of 25 paid days off per year (maximum of 33), so that's 1.25 months (max of over 1.5 months) off in addition to the already-short 10-month work year. Plus, teachers pay zero premiums for their 70/30 health coverage or about $22/month for 80/20 coverage. Throw in short- and long-term disability, retirement, etc. and you have a very respectable total compensation.

In your opinion, what should a day-1, minimally-qualified public school teacher earn per year?
bagofcrabs65
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:43:32 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By DevilPig:
Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
Originally Posted By ElectricSheep556:
Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
Great. Two degrees and I can make 17% more than the average knucklehead in bumfuck County, NC.



Sign me back up for that. I can't wait to grade papers at 11pm, because I'll be rolling in dough.


So take those two degrees and get a job in the private sector. I'm sure an English major could pull in some serious cash there if they didn't report their tips to the IRS.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile



I did, and now I pull in over three times what that NC teacher takes. I have dozens of guns, and an art collection centered on 16th-19th century Asian and European items.


While teachers can barely hold down a mortgage... and continually get shit on.


Yep. And I don't understand why so many are ok with it. Just like police or any other public paying job, you get what you pay for. I doubt everyone here has money to send their kids to private school.


If all schooling was private, the price would be brought down to the point that everyone could afford it.

Furthermore, Private schools actually have to show progress with children while being fiscally conservative.

Vs Public School that can show little progress while increasing their bureaucracy.

Government is not the answer. Free Market is.


costanza
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:45:05 AM
I sure hope NC covers tuition for teachers going back to get a Masters degree while teaching. Wouldn't make financial sense otherwise.
Insert something clever here.
BUCC_Guy
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:45:49 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By DevilPig:
Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
Originally Posted By ElectricSheep556:
Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
Great. Two degrees and I can make 17% more than the average knucklehead in bumfuck County, NC.



Sign me back up for that. I can't wait to grade papers at 11pm, because I'll be rolling in dough.


So take those two degrees and get a job in the private sector. I'm sure an English major could pull in some serious cash there if they didn't report their tips to the IRS.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile



I did, and now I pull in over three times what that NC teacher takes. I have dozens of guns, and an art collection centered on 16th-19th century Asian and European items.


While teachers can barely hold down a mortgage... and continually get shit on.


Yep. And I don't understand why so many are ok with it. Just like police or any other public paying job, you get what you pay for. I doubt everyone here has money to send their kids to private school.


The system needs to be a bit more free market, where bad teachers can get axed and good ones pull in more.

The problem is that test scores alone don't prove anything. The best teacher may often get handed the roughest kids, because they can "handle" them. Add to that the fact that the budget-minded administration would sooner axe a good teacher to hire and cheaper one, and you've got a recipe for disaster.

Public education is a shit sandwich, and neither side seems intent on fixing it.
"I will murder you and make a poncho out of your skin!" DK-Prof
Mastadon
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:46:41 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By hiyaboa:
Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
Great. Two degrees and I can make 17% more than the average knucklehead in bumfuck County, NC.

Sign me back up for that. I can't wait to grade papers at 11pm, because I'll be rolling in dough.

An exam of an "B" high school book report for "Night"

"The book night goes want night so good because in the night people was deading. People was pud in fire pit. Lots of thing."

I shit you not, it was so awful I wrote it down and memorized it. I gave the kid an "F" and the teacher pulled me aside and said that was unfair.

Both the scholar and I ended up with a B.


If teacher pay were merit, or results, based, what sort of pay would this result merit?
bagofcrabs65
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:47:13 AM
[Last Edit: 7/29/2013 10:35:03 AM by Paul]
[quote tree]

Everyone gets a trophy. No one can fail. No one can advance faster than the other kids because its "not fair".

Public schooling is a fucking joke.
BUCC_Guy
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:47:49 AM
[Last Edit: 7/29/2013 10:35:23 AM by Paul]
[quote tree]


True to a certain extent. The problem is that private schools are often getting a higher quality student and can kick out the dumbasses.

Public schools get every dumbass, and the dumber they are, the more sue-crazy mommy is.
"I will murder you and make a poncho out of your skin!" DK-Prof
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:49:57 AM
Micromanagement from administration doesn't help. Here they can go over your head and little Johnny/Janey Cutcorners passes with the principal's magic wand instead of taking the grade they earn because Mommy/Daddy/Grammy gave them some hell.

They do this because they don't want us fucking with their graduation/completion rates, but it's structured such that the better your completion rates are the more money they can finagle, ergo it's mutually beneficial to give Johnny Cutcorners something they have long liked to call a "social promotion." To the kid who actually earned his grade: "Hey, way to go champ, don't let our communist example of rewarding stupidity there influence the decisions you make in your adult life...or sure, let it, more liberalism yay!"

The same is true of standardized testing, so all the while they say officially "Don't teach to the test," everyone does just that because at the end of the day those scores are your bread and butter.

Public education is a non-sustainable paragon of inefficiency. Woe to any parent who relies on it to teach their children ANYTHING.
bagofcrabs65
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:50:37 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
snip


Fail them.
Stop letting them pass "just because they did their homework"
Or
'because they showed up to class".

We don't let anyone fail anymore.

Oh..and we need more bullies...
DevilPig
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:54:23 AM
[Last Edit: 7/29/2013 10:35:45 AM by Paul]
[quote tree]

I agree with all of that. Doesn't change the fact that many people will never send their kids to private schools because they just don't give a shit. Those are the ones that make life hard on teachers, who score low on tests, and are a drag on the system. If we could snap our fingers and have a free market education system I'd be fine with that but I think you'd have better luck shoving hot butter up a wildcats ass.

Is my mother, because she's a public school teacher, somehow deserving of less because she chooses to work in public schools? I understand where you are coming from but at the same time you're in left field.
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:55:32 AM
DevilPig
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:55:59 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By bagofcrabs65:
Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
snip


Fail them.
Stop letting them pass "just because they did their homework"
Or
'because they showed up to class".

We don't let anyone fail anymore.

Oh..and we need more bullies...


I do agree with this. Teachers don't affect that stuff though....the school systems do.
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:56:57 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
Great. Two degrees and I can make 17% more than the average knucklehead in bumfuck County, NC.



Sign me back up for that. I can't wait to grade papers at 11pm, because I'll be rolling in dough.



who's twisting their arms? Capitalism remember?
Can't talk...gotta shoot.
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Mastadon
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:56:57 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By DevilPig:
I agree with all of that. Doesn't change the fact that many people will never send their kids to private schools because they just don't give a shit. Those are the ones that make life hard on teachers, who score low on tests, and are a drag on the system. If we could snap our fingers and have a free market education system I'd be fine with that but I think you'd have better luck shoving hot butter up a wildcats ass.

Is my mother, because she's a public school teacher, somehow deserving of less because she chooses to work in public schools? I understand where you are coming from but at the same time you're in left field.

How much would you say your mother deserves for teaching in a public school? Percentage of cost of living or percentage of average salary would be useful if you don't want to throw out dollar amounts.
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Posted: 7/29/2013 1:59:39 AM
[Last Edit: 7/29/2013 10:36:01 AM by Paul]
[quote tree]

You've got that right, but this is what my and many other states loves to wave around and tout as proof positive of great education. Sort of like how IQ scores don't mean much but some organizations suck your dick if it's high without knowing anything else about you.

So you have a system that rewards scoring high on tests, thus bringing about mediocre education that only teaches to those facets of the test, and due to NCLB you can no longer separate your slower kids or discipline problems from your gifted kids (this concept of 'inclusion'), which means they lump those kids together and now your classroom only goes at the pace of the slowest kid.

You ever see what happens when you take an intelligent animal like a parrot or a chimpanzee and allow it to get bored? Your gifted/talented kids are now discipline problems, taking more time away from instruction.

Whoever designed this system deserves a swift kick to the balls.
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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:01:08 AM
Work in a classroom a few days and you'll realize most teachers deserve every cent they earn. Teachers put up with some of the worst kids, crap from administrators, and parents who think they know how to run a classroom. Those salary tables you cite are the amounts they are paid before taxes, and does not take into account the out of pocket expenses most teachers fork over in order to make their classrooms run effectively. They may be able to take those expenses out as job-related expenses on their income tax forms, but how many people are willing to spend thousands of dollars of their own income on other people's ill-prepared, ill-behaved kids.

Teachers don't work 10 months out of the year, six hours a day. Lesson plan preparation, correcting papers, purchasing materials, and contacting parents frequently happens outside of paid hours. Many teachers have to pursue continuing education credits that are uncompensated by the school districts they work for in order to maintain their credentials. The salary tables you cite are also inclusive of National Board Certified Teachers, which require hundreds of hours of work outside of the classroom.

I was once in their shoes. I know what it is like to put up with parents who don't give a crap about their kid. I know what it is like to put up with administrators that preach pie in the sky academic standards when they mandate social promotion even though little Johnny can read. You may think teachers are being compensated well by looking at a salary table, but you may want to put yourself in the shoes of a teacher for a few days. In some schools, you might want to grab a Kevlar vest with the knuckleheads that populate our schools.

Did I care for the liberal politics that infest public schools? No. However, I knew damn well that I couldn't support a classroom and myself on a teacher's salary. Most people don't get rich by getting into education. At the same time, no one who goes into a classroom signs a vow of poverty to get that job. And most people wonder why so many teachers quit within the first five years of employment, costing the taxpayer even more in training, recruiting, and staffing than what is reflected in a salary table.
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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:02:38 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Mastadon:
Originally Posted By DevilPig:
I agree with all of that. Doesn't change the fact that many people will never send their kids to private schools because they just don't give a shit. Those are the ones that make life hard on teachers, who score low on tests, and are a drag on the system. If we could snap our fingers and have a free market education system I'd be fine with that but I think you'd have better luck shoving hot butter up a wildcats ass.

Is my mother, because she's a public school teacher, somehow deserving of less because she chooses to work in public schools? I understand where you are coming from but at the same time you're in left field.

How much would you say your mother deserves for teaching in a public school? Percentage of cost of living or percentage of average salary would be useful if you don't want to throw out dollar amounts.


I make $16.70ish an hour and have been working my job for approximately 5 years. She makes about 15% more than me but has been doing it for over 20 years. I have an associates degree she has a bachelors.

In the part of the state where she lives, cost of living is significantly more than where I live.
Glock63
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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:04:52 AM
[Last Edit: 7/29/2013 2:08:34 AM by Glock63]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
Originally Posted By DevilPig:
Nc teachers aren't unionized...at least in the traditional sense of the word. Nc is a right to work state.

Also, I do think its ridiculous that they make such crap money for putting up with the nonsense they do.


That's no shit. 33k for teaching high school is chump change.


Lol, I made 4k per year less than that when I started as a professional fire fighter in 03.
BUCC_Guy
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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:05:59 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By gwitness:
Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
Great. Two degrees and I can make 17% more than the average knucklehead in bumfuck County, NC.



Sign me back up for that. I can't wait to grade papers at 11pm, because I'll be rolling in dough.



who's twisting their arms? Capitalism remember?


Yep... and, for many disciplines, there's a line out the door of people that want the job.

Hell, let's just pay minimum wage, then complain more about how we can't get quality teachers.



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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:06:09 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Redarts:
Oh my god a profession requiring a degree makes slightly more than the average in an area, this is a travesty.

You could have at least picked one of the new england teachers pushing 100k a year, because while I won't say that's shitty money... it's hardly a fortune, especially in Asheville.

Also, in before private schools, govt indoctrination, teachers are all dumb, college is a waste (that will get here, somehow), I work 5736 hours a week and only make x why should they do differently, and so on. Also the repeated implication that teachers do no work, and instantly start and stop working with the school bell.

There are some dumb things out there, and the NC teacher's union is a piece of shit, but I'm hardly going to begrudge someone with a fair bit of experience in their field for asking for more than 30k.



This. I laugh at all the teacher bashing threads.
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FortyFiveAutomatic
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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:06:47 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Glock63:
Originally Posted By FortyFiveAutomatic:
Originally Posted By DevilPig:
Nc teachers aren't unionized...at least in the traditional sense of the word. Nc is a right to work state.

Also, I do think its ridiculous that they make such crap money for putting up with the nonsense they do.


That's no shit. 33k for teaching high school is chump change.


Lol, I made 4k per year less than that when I started as a professional fire fighter in 03.


That's also fucked up. Here they make around 60k iirc
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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:09:03 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Gildere:
Originally Posted By Redarts:
Oh my god a profession requiring a degree makes slightly more than the average in an area, this is a travesty.

You could have at least picked one of the new england teachers pushing 100k a year, because while I won't say that's shitty money... it's hardly a fortune, especially in Asheville.

Also, in before private schools, govt indoctrination, teachers are all dumb, college is a waste (that will get here, somehow), I work 5736 hours a week and only make x why should they do differently, and so on. Also the repeated implication that teachers do no work, and instantly start and stop working with the school bell.

There are some dumb things out there, and the NC teacher's union is a piece of shit, but I'm hardly going to begrudge someone with a fair bit of experience in their field for asking for more than 30k.



This. I laugh at all the teacher bashing threads.


I'm still trying to wrap my head around it.
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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:11:16 AM
I'm so fucking sick and tired of hearing how PS teachers do shit and get a kings salary for it I can't stand it anymore. My wife is a PS teacher here in AZ. 11 Years on the job, masters degree and pulls in a earth shattering 38K a year. As far as the 10-monthes a year arguement...more crap. Spends a week after school ends doing all the end of year crap, and a week prior to school starts doing the same. Spends a minimum of 3 weeks doing professional development/continuing education. So fuck you and all your crap about teachers have it made. Parents cry when their kids fail but do shit to help them, administration sides with parents always so school board can stay in power. Admin hamstrings any kind of "tough love" when it comes to unruely kids. Have to belong to the union for the safety net of lawyers if kids say they were touched or the teacher fails to notice a mark on a kids and doesn't call the cops. If its so much money, why isn't everyone joining the ranks??
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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:12:30 AM
[Last Edit: 7/29/2013 2:13:54 AM by hiyaboa]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Mastadon:
Originally Posted By hiyaboa:
Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
Great. Two degrees and I can make 17% more than the average knucklehead in bumfuck County, NC.

Sign me back up for that. I can't wait to grade papers at 11pm, because I'll be rolling in dough.

An exam of an "B" high school book report for "Night"

"The book night goes want night so good because in the night people was deading. People was pud in fire pit. Lots of thing."

I shit you not, it was so awful I wrote it down and memorized it. I gave the kid an "F" and the teacher pulled me aside and said that was unfair.

Both the scholar and I ended up with a B.


If teacher pay were merit, or results, based, what sort of pay would this result merit?


I'm not going to say all teachers don't deserve more money but this lady didn't even deserve to have a job, and I had plenty just like her.

For example, I did have a really fantastic US history teacher, he was a USMC Vietnam combat vet and seemed to know EVERYTHING. But a lot of students hated him because he was hard and didn't accept crap work.

Every test you have to go back and correct every wrong answer with a paragraph explaining why the right answer was right. He should have been a college professor.

I had a better experience with male teachers although I did have a female Chemistry teacher who was very good.
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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:16:49 AM
Does the average person in that county have the equivalent of a bachelors, or whatever is required there to teach? That's a pretty low teacher's salary, generally speaking.
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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:22:39 AM
[Last Edit: 7/29/2013 2:30:45 AM by sigp226]
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
Great. Two degrees and I can make 17% more than the average knucklehead in bumfuck County, NC.



Sign me back up for that. I can't wait to grade papers at 11pm, because I'll be rolling in dough.

Yeah, about that Master's in Education - you know you're going to have to study for at least fifteen minutes to obtain it.

Here's a required class:
(sorry, only 100 level)

SOSC 101 - SOCIAL ISSUES
An introduction to the social science sequence of general education. This course examines the major social issues and problems facing modern society. It will focus on contemporary issues of power and inequality that center on divisions of social class, race, and gender. Industrialization, urbanization, and immigration will provide an historical context for discussion.
0.000 TO 4.000 Credit hours
0.000 TO 4.000 Lecture hours

It's only a freshman class.

This one is more difficult. This is a 600 level class.

EDTC 613 Digital Image Acquisition (4 credits)
This course emphasizes design and learning theories in developing multimedia projects for classroom use. Students will learn how to use original and imported images in Power Point presentations, Digital Videos and Web Sites; and learn how to shoot Digital Stills and Digital Videos. Scanning techniques needed to import regular photos will also be covered. Students will create a lesson they can put on storage media or the internet.


Yep. How to upload the pics from a digital camera and make a Powerpoint presentation. Six hundred level. Only $2,710.60, not including your Student Center Fee, Student Activity Fee, General Service Fee, Experimental Learning Fee, Media and Technology Fee, and Facilities Fee.

You can study fucking at university, too. It's an elective for an education major, but you have to be a junior. They'd probably have better enrollment if they made it a 100 course. Certainly better attendance.


PSYC 326 - LOVE AND SEXUALITY
A study of sexual behavior. Human sexuality will be considered from physiological, psychological, sociological, anthropological, and historical perspectives. The characteristics of human sexual response and its many variations will be discussed, as will the nature of sexuality throughout the life span. Fulfills the requirement for a psychology elective. Does NOT count as elective in Biology major.
0.000 TO 4.000 Credit hours
0.000 TO 4.000 Lecture hours


It's an elective for an education major.

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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:24:58 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By devinsdad:
I'm so fucking sick and tired of hearing how PS teachers do shit and get a kings salary for it I can't stand it anymore. My wife is a PS teacher here in AZ. 11 Years on the job, masters degree and pulls in a earth shattering 38K a year. As far as the 10-monthes a year arguement...more crap. Spends a week after school ends doing all the end of year crap, and a week prior to school starts doing the same. Spends a minimum of 3 weeks doing professional development/continuing education. So fuck you and all your crap about teachers have it made. Parents cry when their kids fail but do shit to help them, administration sides with parents always so school board can stay in power. Admin hamstrings any kind of "tough love" when it comes to unruely kids. Have to belong to the union for the safety net of lawyers if kids say they were touched or the teacher fails to notice a mark on a kids and doesn't call the cops. If its so much money, why isn't everyone joining the ranks??


You certainly sound like a well-adjusted, reasonable guy, so I humbly ask your wisdom on the following:

* If your wife works for 5 weeks during the 8-week summer vacation, how does she spend the remaining 3 weeks while school's out?

* How many paid days off does your wife receive during the portion of the year during which she works?

* If her pay is an issue, why does your wife continue in the job instead of seeking employment elsewhere?

* If frustration with her administrative/regulatory burden is an issue, why does your wife continue in the job instead of seeking employment elsewhere?
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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:27:41 AM
OP, just curious...what's driving this thread? You're from SC and bringing up NC teaching salaries - with what appears to be great disdain.
Insert something clever here.
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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:29:09 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Mastadon:
Originally Posted By Redarts:
Oh my god a profession requiring a degree makes slightly more than the average in an area, this is a travesty.

You could have at least picked one of the new england teachers pushing 100k a year, because while I won't say that's shitty money... it's hardly a fortune, especially in Asheville.

Also, in before private schools, govt indoctrination, teachers are all dumb, college is a waste (that will get here, somehow), I work 5736 hours a week and only make x why should they do differently, and so on. Also the repeated implication that teachers do no work, and instantly start and stop working with the school bell.

There are some dumb things out there, and the NC teacher's union is a piece of shit, but I'm hardly going to begrudge someone with a fair bit of experience in their field for asking for more than 30k.



30k is the MINIMUM, as in a day-1 teacher with a BA and a certificate. Pay goes up from there with additional certification, time in, advanced degrees, etc. Also, remember that the average income includes private sector workers with degrees, so it's not like we're just comparing teachers to prison labor or something.

Don't forget that you're talking salary only. That excludes the golden benefits package that teachers enjoy--a MINIMUM of 25 paid days off per year (maximum of 33), so that's 1.25 months (max of over 1.5 months) off in addition to the already-short 10-month work year. Plus, teachers pay zero premiums for their 70/30 health coverage or about $22/month for 80/20 coverage. Throw in short- and long-term disability, retirement, etc. and you have a very respectable total compensation.

In your opinion, what should a day-1, minimally-qualified public school teacher earn per year?



I have no problem with what that teacher is making. However, you, given that you created this thread, either believe she is making too much, or such a perfect amount that asking for more would be ridiculous.

I know my mother, with 20 years of exp, 2 bachelor's degrees, a masters, and national board certification, makes in the mid 40k range in NC. Do you think that is a ridiculous amount? She lives in a cheaper area than Asheville, and also teaches for a private college on theory of education. Even outside of those courses, long days at the school itself certainly weren't uncommon, and budget cuts ensure that even at the nicest elementary school in the county, she's teaching classes of thirty kids.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be combative here, but I can't even come close to seeing what you're bitching about in this thread. The woman in your article might be a flaming libtard Obama voter and the third cousin of Nancy pelosi, but she's got 7 years exp in a field with low retention, specific degree and educational requirements, and which requires much more input than working g 9 to 5 alone. You couldn't pay me a teacher's salary to do what they do.

I'm hardly giving the "poor teachers, woe is them" song and dance, but they provide a valuable service, and I really don't fault them in the slightest for wanting more.

Also, of course the average salary in an area covers other degreed professionals. That has nothing to do with it. Do you think the majority of people are degreed professionals? I'd wager. most likely not, in NC at any rate.
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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:30:43 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Aimless:
Does the average person in that county have the equivalent of a bachelors, or whatever is required there to teach? That's a pretty low teacher's salary, generally speaking.


According to the Census Bureau, 32.1% of residents of Buncombe County, NC have a bachelor's or higher degree. However, we are talking about a 10-month work year and an additional 5 weeks of paid absences minimum (6.5 weeks max), for a total of 8.75 working months. That's less than 3/4 of the time spent working for about 17% more pay (and again, the 17% figure is for a day-1, zero-experience, minimally-qualified noob teacher), plus the golden benefits package. It looks a whole lot sweeter when you figure all that in. Plus, there is no expectation of excellence with respect to performance.
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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:38:47 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Mastadon:
Originally Posted By Aimless:
Does the average person in that county have the equivalent of a bachelors, or whatever is required there to teach? That's a pretty low teacher's salary, generally speaking.


According to the Census Bureau, 32.1% of residents of Buncombe County, NC have a bachelor's or higher degree. However, we are talking about a 10-month work year and an additional 5 weeks of paid absences minimum (6.5 weeks max), for a total of 8.75 working months. That's less than 3/4 of the time spent working for about 17% more pay (and again, the 17% figure is for a day-1, zero-experience, minimally-qualified noob teacher), plus the golden benefits package. It looks a whole lot sweeter when you figure all that in. Plus, there is no expectation of excellence with respect to performance.
In other words you are comparing the average salary of people in a county with lower education and income levels to someone who has a teaching degree. Average national teacher's salaries is something like $ 45-55k I think. How much do you think you can get away with paying a teacher in 2013? 25K? Minimum wage?
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Posted: 7/29/2013 2:38:49 AM
[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By Redarts:
I have no problem with what that teacher is making. However, you, given that you created this thread, either believe she is making too much, or such a perfect amount that asking for more would be ridiculous.

I know my mother, with 20 years of exp, 2 bachelor's degrees, a masters, and national board certification, makes in the mid 40k range in NC. Do you think that is a ridiculous amount? She lives in a cheaper area than Asheville, and also teaches for a private college on theory of education. Even outside of those courses, long days at the school itself certainly weren't uncommon, and budget cuts ensure that even at the nicest elementary school in the county, she's teaching classes of thirty kids.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be combative here, but I can't even come close to seeing what you're bitching about in this thread. The woman in your article might be a flaming libtard Obama voter and the third cousin of Nancy pelosi, but she's got 7 years exp in a field with low retention, specific degree and educational requirements, and which requires much more input than working g 9 to 5 alone. You couldn't pay me a teacher's salary to do what they do.

I'm hardly giving the "poor teachers, woe is them" song and dance, but they provide a valuable service, and I really don't fault them in the slightest for wanting more.

Also, of course the average salary in an area covers other degreed professionals. That has nothing to do with it. Do you think the majority of people are degreed professionals? I'd wager. most likely not, in NC at any rate.


To answer your first question, I believe that the teacher is doing just fine and does not need more money. If you read the OP, you know that the linked article is full of outright lies designed to illicit the usual "Teachers don't get paid nearly enough!" emotional reaction that we're all used to seeing (witness the FU's I got earlier for calling this teacher on her BS--a knee-jerk, unreasoned and emotional response that had nothing to do with the documented facts that I posted). What really bugs me is the zero-tolerance for facts argument behind this demand for more money.
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