User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 12:38:29 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
you are the one that said the govt didn't shoot on the 19th. Meh. It probably helps him sleep at night. By refusing to acknowledge that the government has already acknowledged that they did fire several hundred ferret rounds, used incendiary rounds, and incendiary parachute flares on the April 19th against the direct orders of Janet Reno ROE on incendiaries, shows deception. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 12:38:47 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Yanno, you seem like an ok guy, but you are stuck on the falsehood that the govt fired at the Davidians on the 19th. You are wrong. pato I would say the same, except that you are invested in the other position. If the HRT fired at BDs attempting to leave the building (like James Riddle), then it was either a horrific mischance or deliberate. Either way, no one wants that to be what happened. All I know is what Ghigliotti's FLIR analysis shows. I've asked Jerry Boykin and he won't talk about it. Riddle was found dead, in the kitchen, of a single GSW to the head. The FBI did not fire at the building on 19 April. In fact, the FBI never fired at all during the entire thing. Post proof otherwise. Ghiglioti's FLIR analysis doesn't show what he thought it did. The Ft. Hood experiment in 2000? proved it. Further, as I have stated, there is no other evidence to back up his claim. None. The fact that Riddle is dead from a GSW is not proof that the FBI shot him. pato |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 12:41:05 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: I can't believe this hasn't been locked. Here's a Pic or 2 to reflect on. I'll leave these here for discussion. For anyone that has been around an Armored unit knows. This is NOT a VTR. It's a tank with the turret turned around over the rear deck. What's on the back of the turret I have no idea. http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b579/CCBPikie/01-19-2012-042158pm2_zps98cd2db0.jpg Here are some "Happy Campers" after the event. http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b579/CCBPikie/093-00846_zpsab7274a0.jpghttp://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b579/CCBPikie/093-01044_zps93307305.jpghttp://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b579/CCBPikie/093-01048_zpsdd656aa4.jpg My Prayers go out to the children. God will sort the rest out. I'm leaving this thread now, I've had enough, that I can't stomach it any more.  Actually your first picture is a CEV (combat engineer vehicle). It's based on an M60 tank but has a boom, winches, a dozer blade and a breech loaded howitzer / mortar that fires demolition charges in lieu of the M60s 105mm gun. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 12:41:14 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
you are the one that said the govt didn't shoot on the 19th. Meh. It probably helps him sleep at night. By refusing to acknowledge that the government has already acknowledged that they did fire several hundred ferret rounds, used incendiary rounds, and incendiary parachute flares on the April 19th against the direct orders of Janet Reno ROE on incendiaries, shows deception. Let me make it plain for you so maybe you'll stop with this idiocy. There was no gunfire from the government on 19 April. Gunfire, as in rifle, pistol, or machine gun rounds. No 40mm HE grenades either. is that clear enough or do you still want to keep up your silly charade? pato |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 12:42:28 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I never said there was napalm dripping from the muzzle of any armored vehicle (you don't put napalm in tanks to begin with), the Danforth report says that accelerants were found. Well no shit, Coleman fuel for lanterns, knocked around by an armored vehicle, plus the FBI shooting pyro into the building=FIRE. Quoted:Yeah.............well................I read the "report" that proves the BD's started the fire, not real convincing. The blame I'm placing is on wildly out of control .gov agencies.
Yep... I fell for the paranoia reports about the tanks being filled with napalm and that is what they used to start the place on fire. Everyone said there was a video of the napalm dripping from the nozzle sticking out of the tank. Funny, that alleged video has never been found and not a single person that was spreading the rumor has seen it. The good ol' days. Hell, if my garage burned down right now, a report could made to look awful bad. Gas for the lawn mower=Accelerants, Black powder+metal bits and pieces=Bomb Making, AR-15+Mini Mill=intent to manufacture a Machine Gun. All my shoes have laces, and I own an AR-15=Intent to manufacture.
For a .mil guy you either don;t know much about pyrotechnic rounds vs incendiary rounds or you are just choosing to read bits and pieces of Danforth. The pyrotechnic round was fired HOURS before the fire broke out and AWAY from the building, near the rear of the compound. The fire wasn't started by pyrotechnic rounds. pato Prior to April 19th, the two CEVs (as you know) bulldozed the large diesel tanks at the rear of the structure (Texas Water Commission wrote to the FBI about the ecological contamination). The HRT also fire pyrotechnic as well as non-pyrotechnic CS canisters at the building after the initial gas injections from the CEVs failed to produce results. The Bureau specifically briefed AG Reno that no pyrotechnics would be used and specifically stated that the liquid dispersal riot agent would not be toxic. Schoomaker and Boykin both objected, pointing out that it was potentially leather (when superheated in a fire it produced cyanide gas). So, the ground was soaked with diesel and the HRT did fire pyrotechnic CS grenades. From the report.. "There is no evidence that any government agent fired a pyrotechnic device at the living quarters of the Davidians, nor is there any evidence that any government agent fired pyrotechnic devices after 8:08 a.m. Because the FBI fired the pyrotechnic tear gas rounds nearly four hours before the fire started, at a concrete construction pit partially filled with water, 75 feet away and downwind from the main living quarters, the pyrotechnic tear gas rounds did not start or contribute to the spread of the fire." The FBI didn't start the fire. pato That's from the Danforth report. I understand that you accept it as absolute truth. Unfortunately, it isn't. I understand you are invested in it being absolute truth. On November 8, 2000, Danforth sought and got a grand jury indictment of Bill Johnson (former AUSA) for concealing the FBI's use of pyrotechnic devices on April 19, 1993. Johnson claimed he was a scape goat. And Johnson plead guilty. As you were there, you know that FBI tactical commander Rodgers ordered the use of the pyrotechnics (after promising AG Reno they wouldn't use them), then sat right behind AG Reno when she testified they weren't used. The Ranger evidence report (2000) gives grids for each item found. It would be easy enough to cross reference where those pyrotechnics were found to the Rangers' evidence grid and prove where they were found, but I can't find a graphic of the evidence grid. So, we know that the FBI fired pyrotechnic CS grenades on April 19. We know the FBI bulldozed the two diesel tanks several days (2, IIRC) before and there was accelerant present in the ground. We know the FBI had briefed a non-pyrotechnic plan to inject liquid dispersed riot agent to force the BDs to surrender. We know that was approved. We know that plan was almost immediately modified and the on-site tactic commander ordered the use of pyrotechnic riot grenades and the armored vehicles began battering the building, knocking it down. We know the FBI subsequently denied the use of pyrotechnic devices until evidence seized from them by the US Marshals on the orders of the AG proved they had. And we know the AUSA (Johnson) knew this. And you believe the Danforth report is the absolute truth and that nothing the FBI did contributed to the fire. No, the fire investigators believe it. The Davidians testified that they set the fire. The tapes show that they spread the accelerant and lit the fire. The video and FLIR show the fire breaking out in three separate locations simultaneously. The evidence supports the fact that the fire was deliberately set by the Davdians. I don't have any reason to lie. I'm no longer in law enforcement and would be thrilled to make a few million by telling all--except that all I know is what I saw I know--which is exactly what happened. In fact, I don;t have any reason to be arguing these points. Read the reports--Danforth, Justice, Treasury for yourself. Read the fire investigator's report. Read the Goddard link I posted. pato Can you show me evidence that the Davidians said they started the fire? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 12:43:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Davidians murdered their own kids, shot and stabbed them, leaving several to burn in the fires they are on tape starting. Try again. You said - in response to me - that the BDs didn't shoot all the kids. 5 were killed. Maybe mercy killings as the cyanide gas choked them to death in spasms that broke bones and the building was falling down in a fiery inferno. Maybe just murder. There were 17 other kids (not including the two babies born as their mothers died in bone-breaking spams from the cyanide gas produced from the superheated liquid CS). They died from the cyanide gas, the collapse of the 'bunker' and the intense fire. Regardless of whether or not the BDs set the fire, the HRT actively assisted the building catching on fire through their CEVs repeatedly ramming of the flimsy structure that they knew was full of hay bales (for ballistic protection), lit / heated by kerosene and candles, filled with a flammable liquid riot agent (that produced cyanide gas when superheated) and surrounded by accelerant (the diesel that came from the tanks the FBI-operated CEVs bulldozed) and through their use of pyrotechnic CS grenades (the NIKO grenades). And as their remains the question of whether or not the HRT fired on persons trying to flee the building. James Riddle's body seems to show that at least one BD left the building, was shot, and then his body moved to another location after the fact. The ATF lied. The Bureau lied. After they were proven to be liars how can any person accept anything they say about this event? "Yes, we lied about all those things but now we're telling the truth"? Those questions only remain in the feeble minds of conspiracy theorists. The answers are clear for those logical enough to research them. Yes, they are. And others deny them because they don't fit their narrative. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 12:45:31 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: That's okay, I've got Grumpy Cat on the 240B covering the left flank.Quoted: Quoted: Where did DC Fed get off to? Getting his shine box to polish some jack boots? I'm not sure........................hey why is my dog barking? Oh SHIT!....................DCFed and Pato in the wire! CLAYMORE! CLAYMORE! CLAYMORE! DCFed is flanking while Pato keeps you engaged.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 12:45:44 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I never said there was napalm dripping from the muzzle of any armored vehicle (you don't put napalm in tanks to begin with), the Danforth report says that accelerants were found. Well no shit, Coleman fuel for lanterns, knocked around by an armored vehicle, plus the FBI shooting pyro into the building=FIRE. Quoted:Yeah.............well................I read the "report" that proves the BD's started the fire, not real convincing. The blame I'm placing is on wildly out of control .gov agencies.
Yep... I fell for the paranoia reports about the tanks being filled with napalm and that is what they used to start the place on fire. Everyone said there was a video of the napalm dripping from the nozzle sticking out of the tank. Funny, that alleged video has never been found and not a single person that was spreading the rumor has seen it. The good ol' days. Hell, if my garage burned down right now, a report could made to look awful bad. Gas for the lawn mower=Accelerants, Black powder+metal bits and pieces=Bomb Making, AR-15+Mini Mill=intent to manufacture a Machine Gun. All my shoes have laces, and I own an AR-15=Intent to manufacture.
For a .mil guy you either don;t know much about pyrotechnic rounds vs incendiary rounds or you are just choosing to read bits and pieces of Danforth. The pyrotechnic round was fired HOURS before the fire broke out and AWAY from the building, near the rear of the compound. The fire wasn't started by pyrotechnic rounds. pato Prior to April 19th, the two CEVs (as you know) bulldozed the large diesel tanks at the rear of the structure (Texas Water Commission wrote to the FBI about the ecological contamination). The HRT also fire pyrotechnic as well as non-pyrotechnic CS canisters at the building after the initial gas injections from the CEVs failed to produce results. The Bureau specifically briefed AG Reno that no pyrotechnics would be used and specifically stated that the liquid dispersal riot agent would not be toxic. Schoomaker and Boykin both objected, pointing out that it was potentially leather (when superheated in a fire it produced cyanide gas). So, the ground was soaked with diesel and the HRT did fire pyrotechnic CS grenades. From the report.. "There is no evidence that any government agent fired a pyrotechnic device at the living quarters of the Davidians, nor is there any evidence that any government agent fired pyrotechnic devices after 8:08 a.m. Because the FBI fired the pyrotechnic tear gas rounds nearly four hours before the fire started, at a concrete construction pit partially filled with water, 75 feet away and downwind from the main living quarters, the pyrotechnic tear gas rounds did not start or contribute to the spread of the fire." The FBI didn't start the fire. pato That's from the Danforth report. I understand that you accept it as absolute truth. Unfortunately, it isn't. I understand you are invested in it being absolute truth. On November 8, 2000, Danforth sought and got a grand jury indictment of Bill Johnson (former AUSA) for concealing the FBI's use of pyrotechnic devices on April 19, 1993. Johnson claimed he was a scape goat. And Johnson plead guilty. As you were there, you know that FBI tactical commander Rodgers ordered the use of the pyrotechnics (after promising AG Reno they wouldn't use them), then sat right behind AG Reno when she testified they weren't used. The Ranger evidence report (2000) gives grids for each item found. It would be easy enough to cross reference where those pyrotechnics were found to the Rangers' evidence grid and prove where they were found, but I can't find a graphic of the evidence grid. So, we know that the FBI fired pyrotechnic CS grenades on April 19. We know the FBI bulldozed the two diesel tanks several days (2, IIRC) before and there was accelerant present in the ground. We know the FBI had briefed a non-pyrotechnic plan to inject liquid dispersed riot agent to force the BDs to surrender. We know that was approved. We know that plan was almost immediately modified and the on-site tactic commander ordered the use of pyrotechnic riot grenades and the armored vehicles began battering the building, knocking it down. We know the FBI subsequently denied the use of pyrotechnic devices until evidence seized from them by the US Marshals on the orders of the AG proved they had. And we know the AUSA (Johnson) knew this. And you believe the Danforth report is the absolute truth and that nothing the FBI did contributed to the fire. No, the fire investigators believe it. The Davidians testified that they set the fire. The tapes show that they spread the accelerant and lit the fire. The video and FLIR show the fire breaking out in three separate locations simultaneously. The evidence supports the fact that the fire was deliberately set by the Davdians. I don't have any reason to lie. I'm no longer in law enforcement and would be thrilled to make a few million by telling all--except that all I know is what I saw I know--which is exactly what happened. In fact, I don;t have any reason to be arguing these points. Read the reports--Danforth, Justice, Treasury for yourself. Read the fire investigator's report. Read the Goddard link I posted. pato Can you show me evidence that the Davidians said they started the fire? I have already posted excerpts from the Danforth report. One poster said that their testimony didn't count because they were coerced to say that the fire was started from the inside. pato |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 12:46:16 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You mean the enemy gets a vote in how your operation turns out...who knew  The rescue was too soft. They treated the Davidians as barricaded subjects with kids when in reality, it was hostage takers with child hostages. The team tried to rescue everyone, not just the hostages and the hostage takers killed the hostages. Actually, there is no evidence that the HRT attempted to dynamically enter the building and secure hostages. Their plan was to inject liquid dispersal CS with the CEVs until the density of riot agent became so high that the BDs would evacuate. That was what they briefed AG Reno and what she approved. The two JSOC reps at the briefing objected that that plan had several flaws, including the lethality of the liquid dispersal agent under certain circumstances. The Bureau assured AG Reno that the riot agent was harmless and the children were in no danger. At that, she approved the plan. Their execution, however, was more violent. After the initial two injections of liquid dispersal riot agent failed to force the BDs to surrender, the Bureau-operated CEVs began to batter (destroy by ramming) the Mount Carmel building and agents began firing 40mm CS grenades at the building. Some of those were the non-pyrotechnic grenades they promised AG Reno they would use. Some were pyrotechnic grenades (NIKO grenades). There is also evidence that the HRT engaged the building with small arms fire during the armored vehicle operations. I have already addressed your claim that pyrotechnic rounds were fired at the building. There weren't. pato Because the Danforth report says so. You believe it as absolute truth. I understand that. And yet the ground was saturated with diesel fuel. Behind the building. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 12:46:46 PM EDT
[#10]
You guys have fun. I have my daughter's softball game to coach and stuff to do later on, but it's been real fun getting to know y'all again.
pato |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 12:50:01 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: BUT you love to jump in line to defend the guys that made it all happen....because of who signs your paycheck....and thus I judge you You missed my other post where I said they made mistakes. The mistakes the ATF made are nothing compared to the criminal acts and murderous rampage of those in the compound. The losers inside chose to shoot children. Sorry, but that is way below anything the ATF did. Child murdering scum are the worst. Hahahahaha You mean like murdering a pregnant woman standing inside her own home from a snipers hide? That kind of child murdering? To be absolutely fair, Ron Hourochi didn't intend (by his testimony) to shoot Vicki Weaver. Under the (later determined to be illegal) ROE, he was shooting at a running Randy Weaver and leading the moving target using the mil-dot lead technique. However, when Randy stopped suddenly, Ron kept tracking and his reticle intersected Vicki as he fired. So he negligently committed homicide by failing to follow Rule 2 and 4 (rules of gun safety). In some places that's second degree murder (depraved indifference). However, the FBI ROE at Ruby Ridge were illegal. That's not my opinion, it was the final opinion of the DOJ. And Hourochi faced no legal consequences for his act. And the people that promulgated those illegal ROE got away with it (the old fired and then reinstated BS). You need to join some of these threads in which people claim that shooting through a door at an unidentified person is fine and dandy. His name in Lon Horiuchi, not Ron. He was also firing at Kevin Harris, not Randy Weaver, when he hit Vicky Weaver. pato That's what happens when I rely on memory. I am, however, correct on the other particulars. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 12:59:06 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yet, with all of the claims of toxicity, none of the Davidians seemed bothered by the gas. No complaints or requests to send the kids out--nothing. No evidence that the CS killed anyone. Howell was a known liar. After the initial raid, he claimed that the ATF had shot and killed a child inside. Turned out he was lying. He also claimed he was dying--obviously he wasn't. He stated categorically that he and his followers would leave after he was given radio broadcast time on 2 March. He got the time, made his speech, and then decided God told him to stay. Another lie. So why would anyone believe anything the man said about working on a manuscript? While he was a charismatic leader, he wasn't well educated and writing wasn't his strong suit to begin with. pato You know the part in red is not correct. Numerous BDs were killed by the cyanide gas produced when the liquid dispersal agent and the CS were superheated in the fire. Their deaths were marked by muscular spasms that were bone-breaking in their intensity. The coroner said so before the refrigeration was 'accidently' turned off and the bodies decomposed. So you could split hairs and say it wasn't the CS that technically killed them - it was the cyanide gas produced by the chemical reaction when the dispersal agent and the CS. That would be disingenuous. You realize that cyanide is a by product of combustion of lots of common material found in homes. Furniture, building materials, etc. To claim that those inside were killed by the CS gas is just not supported by the facts. pato It is also produced, in lethal concentration, when that the planned concentrations of that particular liquid dispersal agent and CS are superheated. Schoomaker and Boykin pointed that out during the gas-injection plan briefing to AG Reno. That is in the DoD documents handed over to Judge Smith (and also obtained under FOIA). That is why the plan, as briefed and approved, stipulated no pyrotechnics. I understand that isn't supported by your beliefs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 12:59:16 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
snip There comes a point in adult life where you have to pick a team. My team is wearing a badge. The other team is trying to kill the people wearing badges....thats not a hard call for me to make. GD often sides with those trying to kill LEOs. Shockingly, I don't agree. Pick your team. Read the above post closely, kids. Several times. Then you will understand how people who viewed themselves as "good guys" willingly shoveled millions of Jews into ovens. I wish I knew the source for this quote: "How do you create a murderous regime like Nazi Germany? Take a small man, give him a badge, and tell him now he's part of something big." His statement calls for serious reflection. You can win against his team. Big Sis cannot procure enough JBTs, bullets, and tanks to prevent that. Get a good book on review of current military and terrorist tactics used by the Afghani and Taliban. The real tough decision is are you willing to be smart, ruthless, cunning, and patient to the extent sufficient to win. "And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? After all, you knew ahead of time that those bluecaps were out at night for no good purpose. And you could be sure ahead of time that you’d be cracking the skull of a cutthroat. Or what about the Black Maria sitting out there on the street with one lonely chauffeur — what if it had been driven off or its tires spiked. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!" - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (from "The Gulag Archipelago") Those evil men, those both posting as well as watching this thread, have no clue how close they are to awakening a sleeping giant. For so long we have suffered abuses by those in power and their minions, yet this single straw... no more than a feathers weight... has broken the dam of resentment and those who would bear the light chains of the tyranny accustomed are suddenly tired of it all. I for one am sick and tired of the moving goal post. FedDC and those like you, I pray that you die penniless, alone, and terrified. You are an enemy of the Constitution, the Republic, and Freedom. You, and those like you are absolutely evil, traitorous, and the repulsive to anyone who has a cogent thought. Well said, +1 Fuckin' A rangermonroe! +2 |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:00:38 PM EDT
[#14]
Has that ever been posted before. I think that is the first time I have seen that. I would have been nice to have seen that back in 04 05 06 when we were always talking about all of this. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:01:29 PM EDT
[#15]
The only so called evidence I could find that might point to the Davidians starting a fire is a "bug" placed in with milk cartons in which you hear people talking about
spreading fuel around. Anyone could have made up such a tape recording to cover their asses. And they just happened to be by the milk carton talking about this stuff right? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:02:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Except that his OPINION isn't backed up by what called EVIDENCE. pato His analysis is evidence. I understand you reject it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:12:37 PM EDT
[#17]
That gentleman and the FBI consultant (Danforth) have lesser credentials than Ghigliotti's. How does their "expert opinion" outweigh that of a far more qualified analyst, other than they are still alive and Ghigliotti is dead? And he's debunking the McNulty Waco documentaries that were based on the first, edited FLIR that was released during the wrongful death lawsuits. Not Ghigliotti's analysis. He doesn't even mention the complete tape (the one seized by the Marshal's in 1999 on AG Reno's orders) or Ghigliotti. Apples to oranges. Ghigliotti thought McNulty missed the boat too. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:14:29 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Except that his OPINION isn't backed up by what called EVIDENCE. pato His analysis is evidence. I understand you reject it. What about this from the link? the problem for the Waco FLIR gunshot claim is that gunshots appear on FLIR for only 1 video frame, however, like solar reflections the Waco flashes appear for an average duration of 7 video frames. [19] For the same reason that the statement "7 = 1" is false, the statement "The Waco FLIR flashes (7) are like (=) gunshots (1)" is false.
Also, where is the shooter's signature? You realize that humans show up on FLIR too right? Any subjective look at the "FLIR proves the FBI shot at the BD during the fire" falls apart with just a minimal amount of investigating for yourself. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:18:04 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: You guys have fun. I have my daughter's softball game to coach and stuff to do later on, but it's been real fun getting to know y'all again. pato Grumpy Cat on the 240B made him break contact. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:21:19 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: SO, you think I'm guilty but I just like to come to arfcomm and get pissed on regularly because I like the abuse. Is that whay you think? pato No. I think you are invested in the official version. You were there as a tactical medic. You saw what you saw from where you were. You didn't see everything. You didn't hear everything. No one did. And because you are invested in the official version, any thing that questions or disputes that version seems to upset you. I don't think you are guilty of anything. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:25:05 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
You guys have fun. I have my daughter's softball game to coach and stuff to do later on, but it's been real fun getting to know y'all again. pato Grumpy Cat on the 240B made him break contact. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:27:40 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
Quoted:
They recovered M60 MGs, really? first i heard of that Didn't have photoshop then, or much internet at all. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:29:22 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yanno, you seem like an ok guy, but you are stuck on the falsehood that the govt fired at the Davidians on the 19th. You are wrong. pato I would say the same, except that you are invested in the other position. If the HRT fired at BDs attempting to leave the building (like James Riddle), then it was either a horrific mischance or deliberate. Either way, no one wants that to be what happened. All I know is what Ghigliotti's FLIR analysis shows. I've asked Jerry Boykin and he won't talk about it. Riddle was found dead, in the kitchen, of a single GSW to the head. The FBI did not fire at the building on 19 April. In fact, the FBI never fired at all during the entire thing. Post proof otherwise. Ghiglioti's FLIR analysis doesn't show what he thought it did. The Ft. Hood experiment in 2000? proved it. Further, as I have stated, there is no other evidence to back up his claim. None. The fact that Riddle is dead from a GSW is not proof that the FBI shot him. pato The Fort Hood experiments were carried out by guys that used to ask Ghigliotti to solve things for them. That's the problem. The students were disproving the master, and the master was dead. As you disbelieve Ghigliotti's analysis, I find the Fort Hood experiment to be an exercise in proving a pre-determined conclusion. Can you explain Riddle's traumatically amputated arm and that his burns were inconsistent with the fire at that location, indicating his body was moved. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:30:25 PM EDT
[#24]
This is what happens when a lesbian is put in charge of anything.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:30:40 PM EDT
[#25]
Which FBI are we to believe? The ones that said no pyrotechnics were used on 19 April or the ones who said yes, pyrotechnics were used on April 19th?
It's a matter of credibility. Due to the very Prosecutor who signed the Waco warrant pleading to a felony to ATF agents beating the cameraman who filmed their assault, to government attorneys being fired for covering up evidence, the average citizen is left to scratch his/her head on what to believe. One overlooked piece of evidence are those military White Phosphorus illumination rounds the FBI requested from Fort Hood. Texas Rangers discover used flares among Waco siege evidence Thursday, September 9, 1999 Associated Press DALLAS - Texas Rangers searching tons of evidence recovered from the charred rubble of the Branch Davidian compound near Waco found several spent illumination flares, The Dallas Morning News reported Wednesday. The first document is an inventory attached to a loan agreement between the FBI and the Commanding General, of III Corps and Ft. Hood, dated July 30, 1993.\315\ It was created a
number of months after the Waco operation ended, and represented a preliminary effort to create a master list of the equipment and material believed to have been provided to the FBI at Ft. Hood, TX. That inventory reflected 250 HE rounds valued at $3,477.50; 200 target practice rounds valued at $346.00; and, 50 illumination rounds valued at $1,242.00. ------------------------------------------------------------------
\38\ Interview with David Corderman, Special Agent, FBI, Washington, DC (Nov. 4, 1999). --------------------------------------------------------------------------- At approximately 8 a.m., Corderman asked for approval to use M-651 tear gas rounds on the shelter's roof. The request went up the HRT's chain of command to HRT commander Richard Rogers, who granted permission.\39\ Portions of these conversations are clearly audible on the overhead FLIR tapes: 3. Disappearance of the Pyrotechnic Rounds An issue that has long plagued the Waco civil litigants as well as law enforcement officials concerns the whereabouts of
the expended M-651 projectiles. The rounds were known to have been fired, one was photographed, another was seen on the ground shortly after the fire, but none were ever logged in as evidence by the Texas Rangers or the FBI. Shortly after the end of the fire, evidence technicians from both the FBI and the Texas Department of Public Safety took over the crime scene to collect and inventory all evidence. A few days after April 19, 1993, a photographer for the Texas Department of Public Safety took photographs of an expended M-651 projectile.\45\ Adjacent to the round in the photograph is what appears to be the wire shaft of a flag used to mark objects to be inventoried into evidence.\46\ However, the evidence log maintained by the Texas Rangers shows no entry for this projectile.\47 http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CRPT-106hrpt1037/html/CRPT-106hrpt1037.htm Hmmm.... Evidence of pyrotechnics used on 19 April disappear. I wonder if could be because the Attorney General specifically stated that no pyrotechnics could be used during the siege? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:34:31 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Except that his OPINION isn't backed up by what called EVIDENCE. pato His analysis is evidence. I understand you reject it. What about this from the link? the problem for the Waco FLIR gunshot claim is that gunshots appear on FLIR for only 1 video frame, however, like solar reflections the Waco flashes appear for an average duration of 7 video frames. [19] For the same reason that the statement "7 = 1" is false, the statement "The Waco FLIR flashes (7) are like (=) gunshots (1)" is false. Also, where is the shooter's signature? You realize that humans show up on FLIR too right? Any subjective look at the "FLIR proves the FBI shot at the BD during the fire" falls apart with just a minimal amount of investigating for yourself. That page is discussing McNulty's documentaries based on the edited FLIR tape released during the wrongful death lawsuits. Not the actual original tape which DOJ seized from Quantico in 1999. To reach that conclusion I would have to have credentials as impressive as Ghigliotti's. I don't. He convinces me. These lesser guys convince you. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:34:55 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Quoted: That is because it is total bullshit, just like the child molesting stories. You have zero idea what the fuck you are talking about. Right, you're the genius that thinks the ATF started an investigation based on family concerns about a their loved ones joining a cult, and rumors of underage brides. You really think the ATF would of told the sheriffs office to f-off about the automatic gunfire if the family members weren't crying on your local news? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:36:14 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
"No sniper teams. At the time, the ATF didn't have SRT snipers who could have ended the carnage sooner." BULLSHIT. None other than fucking Lon Horiuchi was at Waco. And this is well documented. The Texas Rangers found 308 casings from his position. Hell, he would have been there local expert, having previously murdered citizens. Horiuchi should be doing time in a Texas penetentiary, if the bastage is still alive. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:46:24 PM EDT
[#29]
The only thing this thread presents as SOLID evidence pertaining to Waco, is that the government has put out so many different versions of "the truth" that the only sane conclusion to draw is that there are reasons for their shenanigans.
This is the same government, and many of the same government employees, that have participated in numerous misdeeds especially when the subject matter is firearms, separatists, and Americans who just don't fit the mold that applies to "average". I personally believe that above all the government acted with complete disregard for the lives of the children at Waco and that it is criminal. All of the other issues with versions, evidence, lies, half truths, and misdirection, exist because that bunch of fucking cowards were scrambling to cover the asses of everyone involved. Where there's smoke there's fire, and even if the whole thing just snowballed on some under qualified idiots taking their turn at being agent in charge, every individual who made decisions that led to the deaths of those children deserves a death mirroring Vernon Howell's. Those who want to tell people here that some particular version of events that the government has deemed "true" is true, needs their head examined. Liars lie, and the bunch of liars lying about Waco are lying liars. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:50:04 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
You realize that cyanide is a by product of combustion of lots of common material found in homes. Furniture, building materials, etc. To claim that those inside were killed by the CS gas is just not supported by the facts. pato You realize cyanide gas is a known combustion product of the CS and propellant used in copious amounts, that day, right? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:54:15 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've never seen any forensics that the all children were shot. And you have a source that says that all the dead children were executions? Since pato was there, did the Special Counsel's forensic pathologist (and the coroner) miss that? Why hasn't this source or this data come out before? Can you point me to a source? I never said they were all shot... you assumed from what I wrote. The point was the murderous scum killed children. For those they didn't shoot or stab, they allowed the rest to perish in their failed attempt to win against the govt. Considering the Waco battle cries, maybe they did win in some ways. I really, really, really suggest you read David T. Hardy's book about the hunt for the 'lost' Waco evidence. It is on Amazon and only costs $3.99 for the Kindle version. From the outset - from the initial warrant - throughout the siege and the HRT's final armored assault, the two agencies (ATF and FBI) lied. This is not a theory. It is fact and is proven by their own actions and the actual evidence once it was made public. Because of their lies and the 'misplaced evidence', the Treasury report is a falsehood that presents a false narrative unsupported by the evidence that came out in 1999. The initial DOJ report is the same. Because these agencies hid evidence (and in the case of the right front door failed to secure it or worse) the trials of the survivors (who might actually have been guiltier of greater crimes or not) were based upon incomplete evidence. And the wrongful death verdicts are likewise based on a false narrative. The ATF lied about shooting from the helicopters. They lied about not having video. They lied about not recording radio traffic. They lied to get the helicopters. The FBI lied about the child abuse to AG Reno - their own tapes from the bugs and their own negotiators said there wasn't any. They lied to AG Reno about the lethality of the liquid riot agent and when the Delta reps (Schoomaker and Boykin) called them on it they lied again. They lied about the FLIR tapes (the first one released starts at 10:42 AM - not 0600 - and has a unexplained gap). They lied about the existence of the complete FLIR tapes. They lied about only using non-pyrotechnic CS grenades (the remains of NIKO pyrotechnic CS grenades were in the cache of evidence in the Texas Ranger's evidence vault). They lied about not shooting during the assault (the unedited FLIR tapes as analyzed by Carlos Ghigliotti show this). And they lied about where James Riddle died (the forensics show that his body was moved post-mortem - his arm was traumatically amputated by a CEV treads and he dd not die in the ruins where his corpse was placed). Regardless of what the BDs and Koresh did or didn't do and regardless of their guilt or innocence as far as the crimes they were accused or convicted of, when two Federal law enforcement agencies embark on a massive effort to lie, obfuscate, deny and falsify then something is seriously wrong. The ends do not justify the means. Suspected or alleged or even actual criminal behavior does not justify falsehoods, crimes and criminal behavior on the part of the Government, Federal, state or local. Proof, please. Who were the shooters, who did they shoot, and who is covering up for it? pato The proof is Carlos Ghigliotti's analysis of the unedited, original FLIR tapes, as expressed to numerous people. Carlos was engaged by the Congressional House Reform committee to evaluate and present his evaluation of that tape. His credentials as a FLIR expert outmatched anyone else living at that time, to include the government experts. He was the guy the experts went to. His analysis was that there were over 200 separate, non-BD gunshots fired at the Mount Carmel site on 19 April. He died before he could testify. See http://hardylaw.net/Carlos.html. Based on his background and qualifications, his analysis is far more credible than anyone else's. Except that his OPINION isn't backed up by what called EVIDENCE. pato Yes - evidence from the place that was bulldozed and burnt to the ground. Evidence against the very people that proven to be lieing numerous times about what happened that day. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:54:51 PM EDT
[#32]
I wanna know, when do they use Strategic Medics?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:57:12 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Quoted:
"No sniper teams. At the time, the ATF didn't have SRT snipers who could have ended the carnage sooner." BULLSHIT. None other than fucking Lon Horiuchi was at Waco. And this is well documented. The Texas Rangers found 308 casings from his position. Hell, he would have been there local expert, having previously murdered citizens. Horiuchi should be doing time in a Texas penetentiary, if the bastage is still alive. Why? He didn't fire a shot at Waco (if I recall correctly). HRT wasn't even there for the initial assault. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 1:59:36 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Pato, Do you consider FBI agent Rick Intellini to have been lying when he reported hearing another agent testify to smoke coming out of the kitchen less than a minute after said agent fired a gas grenade into it? How does a non-burning grenade cause that to happen? No. He saw what he saw. What caused the smoke is another matter. pato Perhaps the Branch Davidians took time out from the siege to elect a new pope.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 2:01:11 PM EDT
[#35]
I commanded a Tank, I held a Generals Rank............... 
Pleased to introduce myself, Hope you guessed my name... 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 2:02:43 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
"No sniper teams. At the time, the ATF didn't have SRT snipers who could have ended the carnage sooner." BULLSHIT. None other than fucking Lon Horiuchi was at Waco. And this is well documented. The Texas Rangers found 308 casings from his position. Hell, he would have been there local expert, having previously murdered citizens. Horiuchi should be doing time in a Texas penetentiary, if the bastage is still alive. As of 2008 he had been hired by Firearm co. H-S Precision. I found it hard to believe to
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 2:20:52 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Right, you're the genius that thinks the ATF started an investigation based on family concerns about a their loved ones joining a cult, and rumors of underage brides. No what I know is that they couldn't make a move on Koresh on the child charges because no one inside would break. No one would talk to the investigators. When the Sheriff got the report on the box of inert grenades that split open when they were delivered by the UPS man, that got the gears turning in his head to find another way to get the neighbors and family off of his ass and probably more importantly get them off of the TV constantly talking about how the sheriff wasn't doing anything. Well be careful what you wish for when you are asking the government to "do something". That is the point and that has been the point the whole time. When add Koresh told news media and his followers that he was the messiah, Jesus Christ reborn, and that the government would sacrifice him, you have a no win situation developing. On one hand you have local people and out of towners who have family members inside there constantly bombarding the sheriff and even more importantly they are planting their asses on local TV sitting at the gates of the compound saying shit like "Vernon Howell is having sex with my daughter and her 12 year old daughter and is claiming them all as his wives and we can't get the local sheriff to do anything about it". What do you think the local authorities were thinking when they saw shit like that on TV. They started looking for a way to "do something". Well they found the ATF. The AFT liked the plan, they would get a bunch of cameras and look like a bunch of "LEO professionals taking care of a bunch of gun crazy end of the world fanatics that were abusing kids" that the locals authorities were having a problem with. That is the setup. Everything that happened after that was set up by what you just read. Unless Koresh was killed by someone else, this was going to end just the way it did, no matter who did the raid or what year it happened. This whole thing was on Koresh. It happened exactly the way he wanted it too. The biggest problem the government had was they were stuck. All of their options left them covered in shit. In hindsight, the only option they could have done was a raid that took down all the adults with extreme prejudice. Anything else and the kids were going to die. They were pawns and it was Koresh playing them. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 2:30:28 PM EDT
[#38]
JIC someone forgot to post this
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, Letters, 3/17/93, A13. Waco Shootout Evokes Memory of Warsaw '43 On Feb. 27, black-uniformed men of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms wearing "coal scuttle" helmets and carrying German-made machine pistols attacked the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas. Fifty years earlier, in January 1943, black-uniform SS men wearing "coal scuttle" helmets and carrying German-made machine pistols attacked the Jewish compound in Warsaw, Poland. The BATF men were searching for illegal weapons reported by a paid informant to be in the Branch Davidian compound. The SS men were searching for illegal weapons reported by a paid informant to be in the Warsaw ghetto. Reports from Texas indicate the Branch Davidians kept to themselves and harmed no one outside their compound prior to the BATF assault. History tells us the Jews kept to themselves and harmed no one outside the Warsaw ghetto prior to the SS assault. The U.S. broadcast news media tell us that the Branch Davidians practice contemptible sexual rituals involving young children, so they are an evil religious "cult." Nazi news media told the German populace that the Jews practiced contemptible sexual rituals involving children, so they were an evil religion. The BATF invited the U.S. news media to document the BATF assault to show the American public how dangerous the Branch Davidians are. The SS had propagandists document its assault to show the German public how dangerous the Jews were. Four BATF men were killed and 16 wounded in the initial assault on the Branch Davidian compound. Eleven SS men were killed and an unrecorded number wounded in the initial assault on the Warsaw ghetto. After the initial assault, the BATF men magnanimously arranged a truce so children could be evacuated from the Branch Davidian compound (and they could tend to their casualties). After their initial assault, the SS men magnanimously arranged a truce so children could be evacuated from the Warsaw ghetto compound (and they could tend to their casualties). The BATF called up military units with armored vehicles to finish off the Branch Davidian compound after encountering fierce resistance against the initial assault. The SS called up military units with armored vehicles to finish off the Warsaw ghetto after encountering fierce resistance against the initial assault. Fifty years have passed, but little has changed. JOHN D. DINGELL III Wyandotte, Mich. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 2:30:29 PM EDT
[#39]
This is all very easy to sort out;
Name another instance of the ATF doing the right thing/NOT being embroiled in scandle. EVEN IF the BD's were diddling kids, building bombs and M60's and doing all the other shit that's been laid at their feet. AND even if, they shot first, and started the fire from the inside, there is still sooooo much shit that not only could have, but SHOULD have been done differently throughout the entire siege/operation. It's this easy: Humans need food and water to survive -> set up a 360 barricade of the premises and starve them out. Had they come out guns blazing at that point, no one would blame ATF agents for returning fire, and/or assaulting the building to find/destroy the aggressors. One LT and some of his guys murder a few people (who likely deserved it) in shit hole mai lai and the fucking guy gets hung out to dry. ATF agents murder American citizens and people defend their actions. No fucking excuse. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 2:33:59 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
"No sniper teams. At the time, the ATF didn't have SRT snipers who could have ended the carnage sooner." BULLSHIT. None other than fucking Lon Horiuchi was at Waco. And this is well documented. The Texas Rangers found 308 casings from his position. Hell, he would have been there local expert, having previously murdered citizens. Horiuchi should be doing time in a Texas penetentiary, if the bastage is still alive. He should be in prison in Idaho. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 2:35:46 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
ATF agents murder American citizens and people defend their actions. No fucking excuse. You know after the ATF clusterfuck of a raid, they were out after a day or two. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 2:36:12 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Where did DC Fed get off to? Getting his shine box to polish some jack boots? I'm not sure........................hey why is my dog barking? Oh SHIT!....................DCFed and Pato in the wire! CLAYMORE! CLAYMORE! CLAYMORE! DCFed is flanking while Pato keeps you engaged. Well, they are on the same "team"... - georgestrings |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 2:38:25 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: This is all very easy to sort out; Name another instance of the ATF doing the right thing/NOT being embroiled in scandle. EVEN IF the BD's were diddling kids, building bombs and M60's and doing all the other shit that's been laid at their feet. AND even if, they shot first, and started the fire from the inside, there is still sooooo much shit that not only could have, but SHOULD have been done differently throughout the entire siege/operation. It's this easy: Humans need food and water to survive -> set up a 360 barricade of the premises and starve them out. Had they come out guns blazing at that point, no one would blame ATF agents for returning fire, and/or assaulting the building to find/destroy the aggressors. One LT and some of his guys murder a few people (who likely deserved it) in shit hole mai lai and the fucking guy gets hung out to dry. ATF agents murder American citizens and people defend their actions. No fucking excuse. Murder is OK with you |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 2:42:01 PM EDT
[#44]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 2:42:31 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
ProPolice article "During a 2 1/2-hour barrage of gunfire, Branch Davidians fired 12,000 rounds at the 77 special agents who participated in the raid. So, for 2.5 hours, the Davidians averaged eighty (80) rounds per minute of outgoing fire at the feds at the scene? I'd really love to now how they arrived at the total of 12,000 rounds. Some folk must have been standing knee-deep in fired brass. And, in before the D9 folks and "good police work". ETA: Nope, FedDozer beat me. 12,000 isn't much. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 2:48:52 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There was no gunfire into the building on 19 April. You can say it did all you want, but you are simply wrong. pato What were all the ATF agents shooting at then when the first ATF agents got shot?. I distinctly remember seeing video clips of every federal agent in the video squatting behind cars shooting everything from long guns to hand guns. It didn't even look like some of them were taking aim, just pointing and pulling the trigger as quickly as possible. If they were shooting into the building, what were they shooting at? 19 April, not 28 February. pato I'm not talking Feb 28. It was April 19. It looked like frustration or fear because shots were just being flung, not aimed. April 19 is not a day I would forget. I was in high school on that day in 1995 in Oklahoma City. Regardless, it has been a long time. The government lied about this affair. From the agents, to the bureau heads, to the President. Remember Bill Clinton being impeached for lying under oath? Federal agents can claim whatever they want and hide behind their implied integrity. That doesn't mean it is the truth i.e. Bill Clinton. No, you are talking about the initial raid that took place on 28 February. The place burned down on 19 April. 1993. Murrah was in 1995. pato Granted. The point is your veracity, or anyone in the gov't, speaking about Waco carries little or no weight because of what happened there and with Bill Clinton as President. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 3:00:21 PM EDT
[#47]
Eta food for thought. This man may have believed this the proper role of fed LE  [img]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 3:11:45 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
This is all very easy to sort out; Name another instance of the ATF doing the right thing/NOT being embroiled in scandle. EVEN IF the BD's were diddling kids, building bombs and M60's and doing all the other shit that's been laid at their feet. AND even if, they shot first, and started the fire from the inside, there is still sooooo much shit that not only could have, but SHOULD have been done differently throughout the entire siege/operation. It's this easy: Humans need food and water to survive -> set up a 360 barricade of the premises and starve them out. Had they come out guns blazing at that point, no one would blame ATF agents for returning fire, and/or assaulting the building to find/destroy the aggressors. One LT and some of his guys murder a few people (who likely deserved it) in shit hole mai lai and the fucking guy gets hung out to dry. ATF agents murder American citizens and people defend their actions. No fucking excuse. Murder is OK with you
Not the murder of AMERICAN citizens by their own government. A few VC dressed as vietnamese civilians, yeah I have no problem with that. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 3:14:10 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
SO, you think I'm guilty but I just like to come to arfcomm and get pissed on regularly because I like the abuse. Is that whay you think? pato No. I think you are invested in the official version. You were there as a tactical medic. You saw what you saw from where you were. You didn't see everything. You didn't hear everything. No one did. And because you are invested in the official version, any thing that questions or disputes that version seems to upset you. I don't think you are guilty of anything. Pato is not commenting about what he saw firsthand,he is commenting about what he read after the fact. Apparently he was tactical REMF. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/7/2013 3:25:28 PM EDT
[#50]
This shows the possible start and progression of the fire.
Waco FLIR Imaging: Waco FLIR Imaging pt1 Waco FLIR Imaging pt2 Waco FLIR Imaging pt3 |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
