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johnny_dot_exe
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Posted: 2/2/2013 11:47:11 PM

Originally Posted By madmathew:
The sad part is that this going to keep people who could really use the help from getting it because they are not going to get any where near the docs with the threat of losing their rights.

Which is why something needs to be done about separating the harmless levels of mental illness from the harmful levels of mental illness. As I stated above there are varying levels of these illnesses and unfortunately some of them result in the person going nuts and shooting someone else or multiple people. This doesn't mean they all should lose their right to bear arms, but it does mean that some people shouldn't own firearms.

We need a better way to tell one from the other while getting them all the help they need.
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CJ7365
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Posted: 2/2/2013 11:47:42 PM
Originally Posted By stonewall-cadet:
How about we just take away rights from anyone who has ever seeked professional help

Marriage counselor= no rights for you
grief counselor= no rights for you
ADHD in elementary school= no rights for you


Hey lets just shortcut it and put a check box on all doctor forms where they can just take away your rights without any stupid due process maybe just have a 800 number so they can send the ATF to go raid your house

and yeah fuck all those assholes who want a free paycheck from the man they got one while they where in we should cut there lazy ass off now

(the above is sarcasm)

GD is filled with people screaming don't take my rights away for no reason but are happy to throw others under the bus because they think they know something about PTSD. There is a reason why NRA, GOA etc are fighting to stop the VA from being able to take away rights by simply checking a box. Why should veterans have to go fight in court to have their rights restored how about some due process. Yes some people fake PTSD but before you judge someone think about the fact if they got some shit they are dealing with maybe they don't want to talk about it with someone who has never been there so they lie about what they actually did. How about you do some research on PTSD you will ind out most cases are mild and guys simply just go talk to someone to get some shit off there chest.


ChrisLRS
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Posted: 2/2/2013 11:48:09 PM
Originally Posted By poink:
I find some of these arguments against restricting access to firearms for those with PTSD rather amusing. Why? Because I am sure some of the very same people who throw around bastardized quotes of Orwell's "more equal than others", complain about cops getting exempt from new restrictions, and bitch about laws not applying to politicians are the same ones pulling, "I'm a god damn vet" card.

If you are crazy, violent, hear the dog and/or toaster telling you to do things, can't hold a job due to mental illness, get free money for PTSD, are a threat to others or yourself, etc you should probably not own firearms. Sorry - truth hurts.


I don't think anybody is arguing that, but the majority of people I know who've been diagnosed with PTSD do not meet any of those criteria, I would imagine, since you're a vet as well, you have the same experience.
SaltwaterCowboy
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Posted: 2/2/2013 11:48:19 PM
Originally Posted By CJ7365:
Originally Posted By SaltwaterCowboy:
Combat veterans who have PTSD have probably done more for this country than 85% of ARFCOM will ever hope to do for themselves...and people want to take away their right to keep and bear arms?

Please....


so now your trying to justify owning a firearm based on service to country, if your fucked in the head, you do not need a weapon


I'm justifying the fact that these are veterans who signed on the dotted line, wrote a blank check of 'up to and including our lives' to Uncle Sam for the defense of this country and constitution.

What have you done, I wonder? It's very easy to sit there on your ass, point fingers and try to justify your stance.
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74novaman
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Posted: 2/2/2013 11:48:32 PM
Originally Posted By madmathew:
The sad part is that this going to keep people who could really use the help from getting it because they are not going to get any where near the docs with the threat of losing their rights.


Yep.
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With your hands on your head, Or on the trigger of your gun? -The Clash
vxtip545
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Posted: 2/2/2013 11:49:04 PM
One of my buddies went pretty off the walls and ran out into the yard hiding behind trees and stuff thinking he was back in A-stan. He was uhh eccentric before the army so I'm not sure if it really made him worse, he had problems beforehand. Never the less he saw and did some things that will haunt him forever. He's trying to claim disability even though he seems fine to me. Yes he's had at least that episode, but I mean he can function in general, he can work, he can drink at the bars and hangout with friends, seems to me he wants the money because it's there and not because he needs it. Let's be honest, most people who are offered potentially free money will at least try to get it, and I'm sure he sees himself as having earned it by serving, idk. But it is frustrating, if he can work he should be, this is tax-payer money we are talking about, our money..
That's off subject though, I'm ok with a him having guns even though he went off the walls and his parents hid his weapons because they were concerned. That said, as much as I love guns and stand up for gun rights guys with PTSD who have violent or potentially violent episodes should have the courtesy for themselves and others to be responsible and if need be at least choose to deny themseleves and get rid of their guns. I don't want infringements of peoples rights but we shouldn't be irresponsible either. I for one, when taking ambien and other sleeping meds, moved my guns to another part of the house, if I though I was a danger to my family I would get rid of them. I guess I just want people to make responsible well thought out decisions for themselves.
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Posted: 2/2/2013 11:49:54 PM

Originally Posted By ChrisLRS:
Originally Posted By poink:
I find some of these arguments against restricting access to firearms for those with PTSD rather amusing. Why? Because I am sure some of the very same people who throw around bastardized quotes of Orwell's "more equal than others", complain about cops getting exempt from new restrictions, and bitch about laws not applying to politicians are the same ones pulling, "I'm a god damn vet" card.

If you are crazy, violent, hear the dog and/or toaster telling you to do things, can't hold a job due to mental illness, get free money for PTSD, are a threat to others or yourself, etc you should probably not own firearms. Sorry - truth hurts.


I don't think anybody is arguing that, but the majority of people I know who've been diagnosed with PTSD do not meet any of those criteria, I would imagine, since you're a vet as well, you have the same experience.

You've never met a schizophrenic vet or someone getting money each month because they are disabled due to PTSD? We must go to very different VA's and served in a very different military.
johnny_dot_exe
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Posted: 2/2/2013 11:51:06 PM

Originally Posted By corymc:

Originally Posted By johnny_dot_exe:

<snip>
And those links also state that there are side effects from ptsd like I said. Contractors in Iraq used AR15s. Civilians should not own any guns that the military has ever used. I made that reference to ars because it was as full of derp as you original post.


Contractors are civilians. One of my best friends, prior USMC, is currently a contractor. All you basically just did was say that contractors also shouldn't own/carry ARs. Your comparison is still fail and so is your reading comprehension apparently. I clarified my post for you but you still insist on turning this in to something it's not. Can't say I didn't try.
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ChrisLRS
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Posted: 2/2/2013 11:51:37 PM
Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By ChrisLRS:
Originally Posted By poink:
I find some of these arguments against restricting access to firearms for those with PTSD rather amusing. Why? Because I am sure some of the very same people who throw around bastardized quotes of Orwell's "more equal than others", complain about cops getting exempt from new restrictions, and bitch about laws not applying to politicians are the same ones pulling, "I'm a god damn vet" card.

If you are crazy, violent, hear the dog and/or toaster telling you to do things, can't hold a job due to mental illness, get free money for PTSD, are a threat to others or yourself, etc you should probably not own firearms. Sorry - truth hurts.


I don't think anybody is arguing that, but the majority of people I know who've been diagnosed with PTSD do not meet any of those criteria, I would imagine, since you're a vet as well, you have the same experience.

You've never met a schizophrenic vet or someone getting money each month because they are disabled due to PTSD? We must go to very different VA's and served in a very different military.


Is that what I said?
FNH
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Posted: 2/2/2013 11:52:04 PM
Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By FNH:
Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By FNH:
I wonder how many of the guys here advocating restricting the rights of combat veterans with PTSD have any idea of the fucked up shit that happens in theater. I'd wager these are the same kind of guys who get a hard-on to the idea of an civil war/armed rebellion in the USA. I'm sorry kid, but you're out of your lane. Try stepping into my boots for a bit before going after the rights that I fought and bled for.

And sorry, citing some 2nd hand example of "some guy you know with PTSD blah blah blah" does not count.

Been in theater, combat arms, don't advocate or hope for civil war, and definitely not a kid.

However, I still believe the mentally ill should not have access to firearms regardless of their veteran status. It is simply irrelevant.


Wasn't targeting you with that comment poink

That said, you can't just label people "mentally ill" and then take away their rights. Ever heard of eugenics? Who's to say gun ownership is not a mental illness, or some type of failure to integrate into society disorder?

I'm not hating on you, homey. I'm just pointing out that there should not be a disconnect between restricting civilian crazies and military crazies. Both jeopardize things for the rest of us, my man.


I completely agree with you on limiting the access to firearms for those who violently manifest mentally ill symptoms, regardless of who they are. That's not what I'm trying to convey.

PTSD is not a litmus test for indicating if someone is a threat to others.
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Posted: 2/2/2013 11:53:28 PM
[Last Edit: 2/2/2013 11:53:53 PM by CJ7365]
Originally Posted By SaltwaterCowboy:
Originally Posted By CJ7365:
Originally Posted By SaltwaterCowboy:
Combat veterans who have PTSD have probably done more for this country than 85% of ARFCOM will ever hope to do for themselves...and people want to take away their right to keep and bear arms?

Please....


so now your trying to justify owning a firearm based on service to country, if your fucked in the head, you do not need a weapon


I'm justifying the fact that these are veterans who signed on the dotted line, wrote a blank check of 'up to and including our lives' to Uncle Sam for the defense of this country and constitution.

What have you done, I wonder? It's very easy to sit there on your ass, point fingers and try to justify your stance.


You shouldnt judge by a persons avatar, just because i dont have a tank, doesnt mean I didnt serve. You can keep wondering, this is not the point. The point I was trying to make is, just because you signed on the dotted line doesnt mean you get a free ride.

It does not matter if your a veteran, fireman, cop etc....there should be not exceptions
primuspilum
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Posted: 2/2/2013 11:55:44 PM
Originally Posted By Justice23:
Originally Posted By SleeperShooter:
Originally Posted By JSteensen:
Yeah...the VA cant rule you incompetent. Only a judge can do that.

on the guy's story.


That's not what I heard. Not kidding. If you're unable to take care of yourself financially and your everyday needs, the VA can determine that you're incompetent and have your guns removed.


I heard the moon is made of Swiss cheese also......but that doesn't make it true.

Only a doctor or psychologist can deem someone a danger to themself, and then a judge has to declare the person a prohibited person.


Don't want ot come across like a dick, but holy shit, you absolutely don't know what you're talking about. Sorry. I'm a lawyer by trade. I spent 7 years working VA disability as a member of the rating board. What they're talking about is "incompetent for va benefit purposes". VA can adjudicate you incompetent, however they must give you a predetermination notice of 60 days. This just means that you are incompetent to handle your funds for VA purposes.

How this gets reacted to is up to the individual states and agencies who have particular jurisdictional powers related to a finding of incompentency.

You only get referred for "incompetency" by the VA if you're a 100% schedular for a mental condition, or if you're TDIU for a mental condition.

At least as of 2007, which is when I stopped working for VA.
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corymc
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Posted: 2/2/2013 11:57:10 PM

Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By ChrisLRS:
Originally Posted By poink:
I find some of these arguments against restricting access to firearms for those with PTSD rather amusing. Why? Because I am sure some of the very same people who throw around bastardized quotes of Orwell's "more equal than others", complain about cops getting exempt from new restrictions, and bitch about laws not applying to politicians are the same ones pulling, "I'm a god damn vet" card.

If you are crazy, violent, hear the dog and/or toaster telling you to do things, can't hold a job due to mental illness, get free money for PTSD, are a threat to others or yourself, etc you should probably not own firearms. Sorry - truth hurts.


I don't think anybody is arguing that, but the majority of people I know who've been diagnosed with PTSD do not meet any of those criteria, I would imagine, since you're a vet as well, you have the same experience.

You've never met a schizophrenic vet or someone getting money each month because they are disabled due to PTSD? We must go to very different VA's and served in a very different military.
Some of these people you seem so eager to throw under the bus have TBIs or other physical ailments. So if you lose a limb and have been told you have ptsd and have a total combined disability that makes you unemployable you can go fuck yourself too? I don't know of many people who have 100% for ptsd.

rlltd42
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:00:33 AM
[Last Edit: 2/3/2013 12:09:04 AM by rlltd42]


Don't want ot come across like a dick, but holy shit, you absolutely don't know what you're talking about. Sorry. I'm a lawyer by trade. I spent 7 years working VA disability as a member of the rating board. What they're talking about is "incompetent for va benefit purposes". VA can adjudicate you incompetent, however they must give you a predetermination notice of 60 days. This just means that you are incompetent to handle your funds for VA purposes.

How this gets reacted to is up to the individual states and agencies who have particular jurisdictional powers related to a finding of incompentency.

You only get referred for "incompetency" by the VA if you're a 100% schedular for a mental condition, or if you're TDIU for a mental condition.

At least as of 2007, which is when I stopped working for VA.


You might want to read this or this

"Currently, the VA appoints fiduciaries, often family members, to manage the pensions and disability benefits of veterans who are declared incompetent. When that happens, the department automatically enters the veteran's name in the Criminal Background Check System."

"At issue is whether a veteran who has been found unable to handle his or her financial affairs should have the right to own a gun. The Department of Veterans Affairs frequently assigns someone else, often a family member, to handle a veteran's finances, including his or her government pension and benefits. This triggers a report to the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) that the veteran is "incapacitated." Under the law, any such person, veteran or not, is barred from buying or owning guns. The law also applies to family members living under the same roof."

I guess what concerns me is one case where a vet said during his mental health exam that he occasionally forgets to pay his bills and got ruled incompetent. Granted, I don't know what else he had going on, but the way the article read is that his only "offense" was the comment about forgetting to pay his bills on time. I think it was on drudge report 1-2 months ago.
SaltwaterCowboy
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:02:06 AM
Originally Posted By CJ7365:
You shouldnt judge by a persons avatar, just because i dont have a tank, doesnt mean I didnt serve. You can keep wondering, this is not the point. The point I was trying to make is, just because you signed on the dotted line doesnt mean you get a free ride.

It does not matter if your a veteran, fireman, cop etc....there should be not exceptions


I wasn't asking for a free ride, I haven't met a veteran who has... but to categorize all of those with PTSD as 'crazy' because there are varying degrees of it is just fucked up, and wrong, and those who have served don't need that shit... they have enough to deal with.
Do not mistake my appetite for apathy.
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corymc
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:02:23 AM

Originally Posted By johnny_dot_exe:

Originally Posted By corymc:

Originally Posted By johnny_dot_exe:

<snip>
And those links also state that there are side effects from ptsd like I said. Contractors in Iraq used AR15s. Civilians should not own any guns that the military has ever used. I made that reference to ars because it was as full of derp as you original post.


Contractors are civilians. One of my best friends, prior USMC, is currently a contractor. All you basically just did was say that contractors also shouldn't own/carry ARs. Your comparison is still fail and so is your reading comprehension apparently. I clarified my post for you but you still insist on turning this in to something it's not. Can't say I didn't try.
I said I made that comparison to sound ridiculous. But by what you just said, he would be fine by having an ar becuase he was in the military. Your reading comprehension is a fail.

johnny_dot_exe
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:05:30 AM

Originally Posted By corymc:

I said I made that comparison to sound ridiculous. But by what you just said, he would be fine by having an ar becuase he was in the military. Your reading comprehension is a fail.


You definitely accomplished sounding ridiculous.

You also clearly misunderstood my original post and took it to a level that it didn't need to be taken to.

Leaving it at that.
VTEC just kicked in, yo.

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primuspilum
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:08:51 AM
Originally Posted By rlltd42:


Don't want ot come across like a dick, but holy shit, you absolutely don't know what you're talking about. Sorry. I'm a lawyer by trade. I spent 7 years working VA disability as a member of the rating board. What they're talking about is "incompetent for va benefit purposes". VA can adjudicate you incompetent, however they must give you a predetermination notice of 60 days. This just means that you are incompetent to handle your funds for VA purposes.

How this gets reacted to is up to the individual states and agencies who have particular jurisdictional powers related to a finding of incompentency.

You only get referred for "incompetency" by the VA if you're a 100% schedular for a mental condition, or if you're TDIU for a mental condition.

At least as of 2007, which is when I stopped working for VA.


You might want to read this

"Currently, the VA appoints fiduciaries, often family members, to manage the pensions and disability benefits of veterans who are declared incompetent. When that happens, the department automatically enters the veteran's name in the Criminal Background Check System."

I guess what concerns me is one case where a vet said during his mental health exam that he occasionally forgets to pay his bills and got ruled incompetent. Granted, I don't know what else he had going on, but the way the article read is that his only "offense" was the comment about forgetting to pay his bills on time. I think it was on drudge report 1-2 months ago.


I don't get your point. You still have to have a 100% schedular rating or TDIU to get an automatic referral. Then you get a predetermination notice...which you can request a hearing for...so...I guess what I'm saying is that it's only a potential issue for 100% or TDIU.

Don't quote me some fucked up know nothing article, I rated THOUSANDS of disability claims and served on the appeals board, I kind of know what I'm talking about.
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And we had a hot breakfast, of powder and ball.
rlltd42
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:11:17 AM

Don't quote me some fucked up know nothing article, I rated THOUSANDS of disability claims and served on the appeals board, I kind of know what I'm talking about.


I pray you are right....
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:13:38 AM
[Last Edit: 2/3/2013 12:14:24 AM by gunsho11b]

I always told my guys, that if you love guns and/or want to seek some type of federal/state .gov job, DO NOT TALK to any army or VA counselers. May have been the wrong advice, but hey............
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:13:42 AM
Originally Posted By SaltwaterCowboy:
Originally Posted By CJ7365:
You shouldnt judge by a persons avatar, just because i dont have a tank, doesnt mean I didnt serve. You can keep wondering, this is not the point. The point I was trying to make is, just because you signed on the dotted line doesnt mean you get a free ride.

It does not matter if your a veteran, fireman, cop etc....there should be not exceptions


I wasn't asking for a free ride, I haven't met a veteran who has... but to categorize all of those with PTSD as 'crazy' because there are varying degrees of it is just fucked up, and wrong, and those who have served don't need that shit... they have enough to deal with.


I haven't either, but i am sure there are, and those are the ones I am talking about, maybe I wasnt clear about that, maybe I missed it but I dont recall anyone in this thread catagorizing vets with PTSD "crazys" not every swingin dick who has PTSD should be denied. like I said it is a gray area
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:15:20 AM
Originally Posted By gunsho11b:


I always told my guys, that if you love guns and/or want to seek some type of federal/state .gov job, DO NOT TALK to any army or VA counselers. May have been the wrong advice, but hey.


I did this as well, I believe it is the right call. I almost walked down the "wrong" road myself and fucked myself
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:18:06 AM

Originally Posted By johnny_dot_exe:

Originally Posted By corymc:

I said I made that comparison to sound ridiculous. But by what you just said, he would be fine by having an ar becuase he was in the military. Your reading comprehension is a fail.


You definitely accomplished sounding ridiculous.

You also clearly misunderstood my original post and took it to a level that it didn't need to be taken to.

Leaving it at that.

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Murooka
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:19:06 AM
Originally Posted By MACD:
Watch how they play Chris Kyle's murder to add PTSD diagnoses to NICS


This. It's very convenient, isn't it?
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:24:51 AM
Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By Mach:
Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By TangledThorns:
Sorry, if someone has PTSD the last thing they need is a gun. The last thing we need right now is seeing on the news some vet suffering from PTSD shooting up a mall.

Ruh-roh!

Sorry, but I think this guy is right. If your PTSD is bad enough that you have to draw a disability check each month, maybe gun ownership might not be the best idea.


Bullshit.

PTSD has nothing to do ith the potential to harm anyone else.

Can't hold a job and have to become a dependent of the .gov because of it and get free money for life? Maybe you really aren't on the same plane of reality with others and thus gun ownership should not be in the tea leaves for you.


Christ, butthurt much about the money issue?

You've mentioned it in damn near every post in this thread. Get over it dude.

Have hearing damage? The VA pays you for it. Not because you can't work, its compensation for the more difficult life you now face.

Lose a leg? The VA pays you for it. Not because you can't work, its compensation for the more difficult life you now face.

Have some level of PTSD? The VA pays you for it. Not because you can't work, its compensation for the more difficult life you now face.

Holy fuck people. This shit isn't hard to understand.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:31:56 AM
Originally Posted By Stlrain0341:
Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By Mach:
Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By TangledThorns:
Sorry, if someone has PTSD the last thing they need is a gun. The last thing we need right now is seeing on the news some vet suffering from PTSD shooting up a mall.

Ruh-roh!

Sorry, but I think this guy is right. If your PTSD is bad enough that you have to draw a disability check each month, maybe gun ownership might not be the best idea.


Bullshit.

PTSD has nothing to do ith the potential to harm anyone else.

Can't hold a job and have to become a dependent of the .gov because of it and get free money for life? Maybe you really aren't on the same plane of reality with others and thus gun ownership should not be in the tea leaves for you.


Christ, butthurt much about the money issue?

You've mentioned it in damn near every post in this thread. Get over it dude.

Have hearing damage? The VA pays you for it. Not because you can't work, its compensation for the more difficult life you now face.

Lose a leg? The VA pays you for it. Not because you can't work, its compensation for the more difficult life you now face.

Have some level of PTSD? The VA pays you for it. Not because you can't work, its compensation for the more difficult life you now face.

Holy fuck people. This shit isn't hard to understand.


Leave it to a tube stroker to interject some logic into this thread.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:51:48 AM

Originally Posted By Stlrain0341:
Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By Mach:
Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By TangledThorns:
Sorry, if someone has PTSD the last thing they need is a gun. The last thing we need right now is seeing on the news some vet suffering from PTSD shooting up a mall.

Ruh-roh!

Sorry, but I think this guy is right. If your PTSD is bad enough that you have to draw a disability check each month, maybe gun ownership might not be the best idea.


Bullshit.

PTSD has nothing to do ith the potential to harm anyone else.

Can't hold a job and have to become a dependent of the .gov because of it and get free money for life? Maybe you really aren't on the same plane of reality with others and thus gun ownership should not be in the tea leaves for you.


Christ, butthurt much about the money issue?

You've mentioned it in damn near every post in this thread. Get over it dude.

Have hearing damage? The VA pays you for it. Not because you can't work, its compensation for the more difficult life you now face.

Lose a leg? The VA pays you for it. Not because you can't work, its compensation for the more difficult life you now face.

Have some level of PTSD? The VA pays you for it. Not because you can't work, its compensation for the more difficult life you now face.

Holy fuck people. This shit isn't hard to understand.

And life becomes ever more difficult as you get balder, fatter, and older. Who do you petition for those monies due the more difficult life you now face?
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Posted: 2/3/2013 12:59:53 AM
Originally Posted By Jimmy22:
This may be unpoppular but I think this should be how it is. People want to say they are crazy enough that they can't hold a job, but not crazy enough to be barred from firearms. You can't have your cake and eat it too

Maybe I'm biased but I really don't like the whole ptsd thing. I know several people that I think are faking it. They just want an excuse to not have to work. Any crazy they have, they had before going in the army


First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me.
ti8589: just read your post, you sound like a dick.
LarryThePirate: How long did it take you to become an SME on dicks?
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:01:28 AM
[Last Edit: 2/3/2013 1:02:14 AM by Stlrain0341]
Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By Stlrain0341:

Christ, butthurt much about the money issue?

You've mentioned it in damn near every post in this thread. Get over it dude.

Have hearing damage? The VA pays you for it. Not because you can't work, its compensation for the more difficult life you now face.

Lose a leg? The VA pays you for it. Not because you can't work, its compensation for the more difficult life you now face.

Have some level of PTSD? The VA pays you for it. Not because you can't work, its compensation for the more difficult life you now face.

Holy fuck people. This shit isn't hard to understand.

And life becomes ever more difficult as you get balder, fatter, and older. Who do you petition for those monies due the more difficult life you now face?


Equating injuries sustained in combat to getting fat.

Uh huh.
S13gmund
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:02:17 AM
Originally Posted By JSteensen:
Yeah...the VA cant rule you incompetent. Only a judge can do that.

on the guy's story.


incorrect.
"Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms."
poink
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:03:08 AM

Originally Posted By Stlrain0341:
Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By Stlrain0341:
Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By Mach:
Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By TangledThorns:
Sorry, if someone has PTSD the last thing they need is a gun. The last thing we need right now is seeing on the news some vet suffering from PTSD shooting up a mall.

Ruh-roh!

Sorry, but I think this guy is right. If your PTSD is bad enough that you have to draw a disability check each month, maybe gun ownership might not be the best idea.


Bullshit.

PTSD has nothing to do ith the potential to harm anyone else.

Can't hold a job and have to become a dependent of the .gov because of it and get free money for life? Maybe you really aren't on the same plane of reality with others and thus gun ownership should not be in the tea leaves for you.


Christ, butthurt much about the money issue?

You've mentioned it in damn near every post in this thread. Get over it dude.

Have hearing damage? The VA pays you for it. Not because you can't work, its compensation for the more difficult life you now face.

Lose a leg? The VA pays you for it. Not because you can't work, its compensation for the more difficult life you now face.

Have some level of PTSD? The VA pays you for it. Not because you can't work, its compensation for the more difficult life you now face.

Holy fuck people. This shit isn't hard to understand.

And life becomes ever more difficult as you get balder, fatter, and older. Who do you petition for those monies due the more difficult life you now face?


Equating injuries sustained in combat to getting fat.

Uh huh.

No, stating that life gets hard regardless. And I never said that no one should get paid for something that is service connected. However, I do maintain that if you have psychological issues that are that pressing that you get 100% disability rating, you should not be packing.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:03:49 AM
Originally Posted By SaltwaterCowboy:
Originally Posted By CJ7365:
Originally Posted By SaltwaterCowboy:
Combat veterans who have PTSD have probably done more for this country than 85% of ARFCOM will ever hope to do for themselves...and people want to take away their right to keep and bear arms?

Please....


so now your trying to justify owning a firearm based on service to country, if your fucked in the head, you do not need a weapon


I'm justifying the fact that these are veterans who signed on the dotted line, wrote a blank check of 'up to and including our lives' to Uncle Sam for the defense of this country and constitution.

What have you done, I wonder? It's very easy to sit there on your ass, point fingers and try to justify your stance.

If you're ever in New Orleans I would be more than happy to introduce and let you babysit a guy that I know who has PTSD, this poor kid is so fucked. He served his country with me and he doesn't need to be anywhere around weapons. According to him it happened when our buddy lost his arm(IED). The buddy who lost his arm is fine and doesn't have PTSD, on that night he was actually as calm as could be and put on his own tourniquet. We had to restrain the first one because he threw down his weapon and started freaking the fuck out and screaming. There is just not enough known as to why people react to things the way they do and would happen when they get a trigger.


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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:08:30 AM
Originally Posted By Jimmy22:
Originally Posted By JSteensen:

Originally Posted By TangledThorns:
Sorry, if someone has PTSD the last thing they need is a gun. The last thing we need right now is seeing on the news some vet suffering from PTSD shooting up a mall.

Your a fucking idiot who has no idea what they are talking about.


Please explain to me how someone can be absolutely so unstable that they can not hold a job but stable enough to own firearms?


THIS.

IF YOU WANT TO BE A BITCH AND CLAIM PTSD AND TAKE THE RIDE, EXPECT SOME NEGATIVE BACKLASH.

Ya I just got medically retired, not for PTSD tho. I did get to meet a lot of these crazy douchebags and I'm glad they can't own a firearm.
11B OEF veteran
"Hearts and minds make great targets."
poink
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:10:40 AM
[Last Edit: 2/3/2013 1:11:06 AM by poink]

Originally Posted By DJ3187:
Originally Posted By Jimmy22:
Originally Posted By JSteensen:

Originally Posted By TangledThorns:
Sorry, if someone has PTSD the last thing they need is a gun. The last thing we need right now is seeing on the news some vet suffering from PTSD shooting up a mall.

Your a fucking idiot who has no idea what they are talking about.


Please explain to me how someone can be absolutely so unstable that they can not hold a job but stable enough to own firearms?


THIS.

IF YOU WANT TO BE A BITCH AND CLAIM PTSD AND TAKE THE RIDE, EXPECT SOME NEGATIVE BACKLASH.

Ya I just got medically retired, not for PTSD tho. I did get to meet a lot of these crazy douchebags and I'm glad they can't own a firearm.
11B OEF veteran

Ruh-roh x 2! Prepare to get pounced on by the "I'm a gawd damn vet, you commie faggot" crowd.
RictusGrin
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:13:32 AM
Originally Posted By DJ3187:
Originally Posted By Jimmy22:
Originally Posted By JSteensen:

Originally Posted By TangledThorns:
Sorry, if someone has PTSD the last thing they need is a gun. The last thing we need right now is seeing on the news some vet suffering from PTSD shooting up a mall.

Your a fucking idiot who has no idea what they are talking about.


Please explain to me how someone can be absolutely so unstable that they can not hold a job but stable enough to own firearms?


THIS.

IF YOU WANT TO BE A BITCH AND CLAIM PTSD AND TAKE THE RIDE, EXPECT SOME NEGATIVE BACKLASH.

Ya I just got medically retired, not for PTSD tho. I did get to meet a lot of these crazy douchebags and I'm glad they can't own a firearm.
11B OEF veteran


Generally speaking, people with PTSD are fine to own firearms. As with anything, some people on the extremes are not OK to do many things. I see some tracking toward the absolute extreme in a lot of posts here and that does not represent the norm.

Bitches and douchebags? Impressive. Stay classy.


Locked in my zef zone.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:13:37 AM
[Last Edit: 2/3/2013 1:14:08 AM by timthemedic]
Originally Posted By TangledThorns:
Sorry, if someone has PTSD the last thing they need is a gun. The last thing we need right now is seeing on the news some vet suffering from PTSD shooting up a mall.



Whoever bought my membership, thank you. I'll pay it forward when the time is right.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:14:56 AM
Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By DJ3187:
Originally Posted By Jimmy22:
Originally Posted By JSteensen:

Originally Posted By TangledThorns:
Sorry, if someone has PTSD the last thing they need is a gun. The last thing we need right now is seeing on the news some vet suffering from PTSD shooting up a mall.

Your a fucking idiot who has no idea what they are talking about.


Please explain to me how someone can be absolutely so unstable that they can not hold a job but stable enough to own firearms?


THIS.

IF YOU WANT TO BE A BITCH AND CLAIM PTSD AND TAKE THE RIDE, EXPECT SOME NEGATIVE BACKLASH.

Ya I just got medically retired, not for PTSD tho. I did get to meet a lot of these crazy douchebags and I'm glad they can't own a firearm.
11B OEF veteran

Ruh-roh x 2! Prepare to get pounced on by the "I'm a gawd damn vet, you commie faggot" crowd.


Don't be ridiculous. Oh, wait....

That isn't the argument and you know it.
Locked in my zef zone.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:15:56 AM
Originally Posted By DJ3187:
Originally Posted By Jimmy22:
Originally Posted By JSteensen:

Originally Posted By TangledThorns:
Sorry, if someone has PTSD the last thing they need is a gun. The last thing we need right now is seeing on the news some vet suffering from PTSD shooting up a mall.

Your a fucking idiot who has no idea what they are talking about.


Please explain to me how someone can be absolutely so unstable that they can not hold a job but stable enough to own firearms?


THIS.

IF YOU WANT TO BE A BITCH AND CLAIM PTSD AND TAKE THE RIDE, EXPECT SOME NEGATIVE BACKLASH.

Ya I just got medically retired, not for PTSD tho. I did get to meet a lot of these crazy douchebags and I'm glad they can't own a firearm.
11B OEF veteran


You seem pretty angry. You should talk to someone about that.
wareagleA5
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:17:39 AM
Originally Posted By RictusGrin:
Originally Posted By DJ3187:
Originally Posted By Jimmy22:
Originally Posted By JSteensen:

Originally Posted By TangledThorns:
Sorry, if someone has PTSD the last thing they need is a gun. The last thing we need right now is seeing on the news some vet suffering from PTSD shooting up a mall.

Your a fucking idiot who has no idea what they are talking about.


Please explain to me how someone can be absolutely so unstable that they can not hold a job but stable enough to own firearms?


THIS.

IF YOU WANT TO BE A BITCH AND CLAIM PTSD AND TAKE THE RIDE, EXPECT SOME NEGATIVE BACKLASH.

Ya I just got medically retired, not for PTSD tho. I did get to meet a lot of these crazy douchebags and I'm glad they can't own a firearm.
11B OEF veteran


Generally speaking, people with PTSD are fine to own firearms. As with anything, some people on the extremes are not OK to do many things. I see some tracking toward the absolute extreme in a lot of posts here and that does not represent the norm.

Bitches and douchebags? Impressive. Stay classy.


That hasn't been my experience, but I'm no doctor, I have seen plenty of asshole's who said they were going to claim PTSD and maybe they're the ones you're running into or with.

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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:21:58 AM
Originally Posted By poink:

Originally Posted By DJ3187:
Originally Posted By Jimmy22:
Originally Posted By JSteensen:

Originally Posted By TangledThorns:
Sorry, if someone has PTSD the last thing they need is a gun. The last thing we need right now is seeing on the news some vet suffering from PTSD shooting up a mall.

Your a fucking idiot who has no idea what they are talking about.


Please explain to me how someone can be absolutely so unstable that they can not hold a job but stable enough to own firearms?


THIS.

IF YOU WANT TO BE A BITCH AND CLAIM PTSD AND TAKE THE RIDE, EXPECT SOME NEGATIVE BACKLASH.

Ya I just got medically retired, not for PTSD tho. I did get to meet a lot of these crazy douchebags and I'm glad they can't own a firearm.
11B OEF veteran

Ruh-roh x 2! Prepare to get pounced on by the "I'm a gawd damn vet, you commie faggot" crowd.


Lol cue the lt Dan pics
"Hearts and minds make great targets."
DJ3187
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:25:56 AM
Originally Posted By Stlrain0341:
Originally Posted By DJ3187:
Originally Posted By Jimmy22:
Originally Posted By JSteensen:

Originally Posted By TangledThorns:
Sorry, if someone has PTSD the last thing they need is a gun. The last thing we need right now is seeing on the news some vet suffering from PTSD shooting up a mall.

Your a fucking idiot who has no idea what they are talking about.


Please explain to me how someone can be absolutely so unstable that they can not hold a job but stable enough to own firearms?


THIS.

IF YOU WANT TO BE A BITCH AND CLAIM PTSD AND TAKE THE RIDE, EXPECT SOME NEGATIVE BACKLASH.

Ya I just got medically retired, not for PTSD tho. I did get to meet a lot of these crazy douchebags and I'm glad they can't own a firearm.
11B OEF veteran


You seem pretty angry. You should talk to someone about that.


I mean, I would but theyl take my guns lol
"Hearts and minds make great targets."
DocBach
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:26:53 AM
Fuck - me and my buddy go to meetings at the vet center because our wives are really controlling and its the only time we get to hang out. I hope we can still own guns.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:28:36 AM
[Last Edit: 2/3/2013 1:29:34 AM by Lewisite]
Originally Posted By SaltwaterCowboy:
Combat veterans who have PTSD have probably done more for this country than 85% of ARFCOM will ever hope to do for themselves...and people want to take away their right to keep and bear arms?

Please....


If they are ruled unfit and disabled to a large enough degree that they could potentially be a danger to themselves or others, absolutely. It is true though that every case is different. Ones with "less severe" forms of PTSD should receive a lower rating, receive less government aid, and still be allowed to keep their rights. As was said before, the ones who cannot even hold a job due to the disability should not be allowed to own firearms and also be given the most aid. It is a very good thing that this will start to get a lot more attention and the Veterans Disarmament Act was a step in the right direction.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:35:26 AM
Based on some of the posts I'm seeing here, I think there is a gross misunderstanding of how VA Disability works and what PTSD really is all about.

The VA compensates Veterans based upon the fact that over the course of our Service, be it 3 years or 30 years things happen to us that cause us to become what the VA diagnoses as "disabled". The VA isn't just for guys missing appendages, dying of cancer from Agent Orange exposure, clinically insane with PTSD-related symptoms, or elderly Vets who can't afford health care anywhere else. That's Hollywood VA.

The reality is, the VA evaluates us based upon what we could do when we came in, and what we are capable of doing now that our service is over. Again 3 years or 30, your service has had some effects on your physical (and mental/emotional) health. If your hearing has decreased sinc you came in, you get percentage points. If you have knee problems you didn't have before, you get percentage points. Sleep apnea you didn't have before, you get percentage points. PTSD you didn't have before, percentage points. Fear of Crowds and Dogs you didn't have before, percentage points. And so on and so forth. Hence, you see the Disabled Veteran license plate on the vehicle of a guy who walks with a cane or walker and at the same time on the vehicle of a guy walking around unassisted with nothing visibly wrong with him. If your points add up over a certain percentage, you are a "Disabled Veteran" no two ways about it.

The PTSD diagnosis does not mean you are The Deer Hunter. In the vast majority of cases, PTSD is really more a collection of minor emotional gliches that disrupt the ability of a veteran to "live normally". Generally it has more to do with guilt, hypervigilence, sleep disorders, and startle responses. The only time I have ever seen PTSD linked to violent behavior or extreme psychosis was when it was coupled with the gross abuses of both alcohol AND drugs.

I personally have heeded the advice of a variety of individuals and tread very cautiously when it comes to my PTSD diagnosis. Eventually, I will probably/almost certainly claim it, as I will claim all of my other service related disorders. But I will do so cautiously and mindful of the political climate whatever that winds up being in the future.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:39:38 AM
[Last Edit: 2/3/2013 1:46:39 AM by ArchEtech]
If youre too psychologically messed up to hold a job, and on disability, one probably shouldn't be allowed to own firearms. Just getting some VA benifits to supplement income doesnt seem reasonabel. It shouldn't be made difficult to get your rights back after recovery though. But seriously if youre on long term disability, unable to work because of serious mental instability, carrying weapons shouldn't be an option.


It looks like PTSD can be catogorized for a lot of reasons, so perhaps some kind of specific documentation/diagnosis should be requireed to suspend your right to firearms. Just having some anxiety and trouble sleeping with enough points shouldn't take those rights away. If you're having hallucinations, violent episodes, or other serious mental issues I think an argument could be made....

Just my .02.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:41:44 AM

Originally Posted By DJ3187:
Originally Posted By Stlrain0341:
Originally Posted By DJ3187:
Originally Posted By Jimmy22:
Originally Posted By JSteensen:

Originally Posted By TangledThorns:
Sorry, if someone has PTSD the last thing they need is a gun. The last thing we need right now is seeing on the news some vet suffering from PTSD shooting up a mall.

Your a fucking idiot who has no idea what they are talking about.


Please explain to me how someone can be absolutely so unstable that they can not hold a job but stable enough to own firearms?


THIS.

IF YOU WANT TO BE A BITCH AND CLAIM PTSD AND TAKE THE RIDE, EXPECT SOME NEGATIVE BACKLASH.

Ya I just got medically retired, not for PTSD tho. I did get to meet a lot of these crazy douchebags and I'm glad they can't own a firearm.
11B OEF veteran


You seem pretty angry. You should talk to someone about that.


I mean, I would but theyl take my guns lol

Whats going to stop them? you say it is okay to take away people with ptsds guns. Why not take all combat veterans guns away because they are just as dangerous if not more because they never went in for help. If you guys can't see that you give an inch they are going to take the whole thing. So keep shitting on people who have ptsd and when they say all combat vets are unfit then don't cry on here. Its about time we start sticking together instead of trying to throw any group under the bus.
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Posted: 2/3/2013 1:41:47 AM
Originally Posted By Lewisite:
Originally Posted By SaltwaterCowboy:
Combat veterans who have PTSD have probably done more for this country than 85% of ARFCOM will ever hope to do for themselves...and people want to take away their right to keep and bear arms?

Please....


If they are ruled unfit and disabled to a large enough degree that they could potentially be a danger to themselves or others, absolutely. It is true though that every case is different. Ones with "less severe" forms of PTSD should receive a lower rating, receive less government aid, and still be allowed to keep their rights. As was said before, the ones who cannot even hold a job due to the disability should not be allowed to own firearms and also be given the most aid. It is a very good thing that this will start to get a lot more attention and the Veterans Disarmament Act was a step in the right direction.


agreed. The people that say that vets that are 100% disabled because of ptsd but should still have firearms because "theyve earned it", remind me of the senators that like to make rules for the population but exempt themselves from those rules.


The only reason we are even arguing about this is because military vets are untouchable if you want to remain politically correct. If we were talking about people on mental disability from being a social worker or something, there wouldn't be any argument over whether they should have firearms
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Posted: 2/3/2013 2:05:48 AM
All this noise about who should be allowed to have this or that is Bullshit. Reduce restrictions on gun ownership, and when some fuck does something illegal with his guns, deal with his ass. Thats when we can say "I don't care who you are, or where you came from, you fucked up." As we can clearly see here It's a damn slippery slope when folks get busy judging others competence in this matter. Individual Liberty, Individual responsibility.
EXTREMISM IN DEFENSE OF LIBERTY IS NO VICE.
Theres two kinds of people here, those with guns, and those that dig. You, dig.
Payback99
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Posted: 2/3/2013 2:23:20 AM
Originally Posted By Jimmy22:
Originally Posted By Lewisite:
Originally Posted By SaltwaterCowboy:
Combat veterans who have PTSD have probably done more for this country than 85% of ARFCOM will ever hope to do for themselves...and people want to take away their right to keep and bear arms?

Please....


If they are ruled unfit and disabled to a large enough degree that they could potentially be a danger to themselves or others, absolutely. It is true though that every case is different. Ones with "less severe" forms of PTSD should receive a lower rating, receive less government aid, and still be allowed to keep their rights. As was said before, the ones who cannot even hold a job due to the disability should not be allowed to own firearms and also be given the most aid. It is a very good thing that this will start to get a lot more attention and the Veterans Disarmament Act was a step in the right direction.


agreed. The people that say that vets that are 100% disabled because of ptsd but should still have firearms because "theyve earned it", remind me of the senators that like to make rules for the population but exempt themselves from those rules.


The only reason we are even arguing about this is because military vets are untouchable if you want to remain politically correct. If we were talking about people on mental disability from being a social worker or something, there wouldn't be any argument over whether they should have firearms


A 100% disability due to PTSD is EXCEPTIONALLY rare. Most of the time (but not all) PTSD diagnosis will land you anywhere from 45%-65% VA Disability rating. HOWEVER, since VA diability is cumulative, so if you also have Hearing loss, Sleep Apnea, and a bum knee you will recieve an overall rating of anywhere from 90-100%. Congrats, you made it!
"DWE, TSC, BWS, FEP, DTM, TJLM, DAZ, JRN -- On a Mission from Higher."
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Posted: 2/3/2013 2:38:04 AM
Originally Posted By Jimmy22:
Originally Posted By JSteensen:

Originally Posted By TangledThorns:
Sorry, if someone has PTSD the last thing they need is a gun. The last thing we need right now is seeing on the news some vet suffering from PTSD shooting up a mall.

Your a fucking idiot who has no idea what they are talking about.


Please explain to me how someone can be absolutely so unstable that they can not hold a job but stable enough to own firearms?



Say a person spends a few years living everyday with their mortality impressed upon them by the reality they are experiencing, often tramatically.
Maybe that person has a little trouble re-adjusting to the modern American society and the business/corporate world half-filled with lazy, stupid, self-centered idiots that just want to sham their way through the day and run home to FB and watch reality shows that are far real life.
This may affect their ability to hold a job but it does not mean they are potentally psychotic.
Some people, who suffer from PTSD and other forms of mental disorders, should not be allowed to own weapons until the are determined to no longer be a threat to themselves or others. This should be only in extreme cases and needs to be determined judicially after medical review.

Every system that is set up will be exploited by a percentage of indiviuals envolved on the receiving end and sometimes by those who run the system.
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