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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:43:48 PM EDT
[#1]
Bump
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:49:28 PM EDT
[#2]
I sure dont have the tools needed to make the parts.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 8:54:40 PM EDT
[#4]
With a name like "Roebuck", you should make sears.
Ba-Dump-BAH!!!!  
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Posted: 12/22/2012 9:05:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/484783_Vader_Spade_s_80__AR_15_build___Milling__Etching__and_Anodizing.html http://www.rgr8family.com/Manuals/AR-10_Machining_Instructions_01202012.pdf http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_4/210572_Building_the_KT_15___ http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_4_51/115619_Home_build_laws_for_individuals__can_you_make__can_you_transfer___.html Not everyone can afford a CNC machine. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 9:13:18 PM EDT
[#6]
Cast aluminum lower. Build a woodworking CNC. Bosch routers will make chips in wax or foam, no problem.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 9:19:00 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Cast aluminum lower. Build a woodworking CNC. Bosch routers will make chips in wax or foam, no problem. Not following here. you can cast aluminum in wood? |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 9:22:01 PM EDT
[#8]
I'm not much help for this kind of topic, but I fully support where you are going with this. Best of luck.
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Posted: 12/22/2012 9:26:13 PM EDT
[#9]
No, use the CNC to cut wax or foam. Use that as your core for an investment casting.
I recommend a good bosch variable speed wood router. There's a company out there that makes precision aftermarket collets for them. Pretty heavy tho, so you'll have to make the CNC pretty stiff to mitigate deflection. Cut half of a wax lower reciever in two setups (inside and outside). Cut the other half. Join them together. Dip in slip material. Pack in your sandbox. Pour molten aluminum into the sprue. Might have to play around with it in CAD to get it to come out at the right dimensions due to aluminum shrinkage. Use a program with a "scale" function. Also, some of the small holes and threaded portions might not cast too well, so you might do better to cast those as just small, located holes that you can then drill and tap by hand. eta: I have a bosch evs 1617 for my wood working mill. I believe the name of the company that sells the precision collets is "thinkandtink" or something like that. They're the only company I've found that makes a 1/8" collet for it. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 9:27:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Using a manual milling machine and a few simple fixtures, you can turn raw AR lower forgings into good receivers.
With a little extra tooling you can also make uppers. If you have a lathe and get rifled blanks, you can make barrels. If you really want to get serious, you could get the tools necessary to make barrels including doing the drilling and rifling. All it takes is money, dedication, and skill. Many very smart people have figured out what works in an AR magazine and does not work. All 30 rounders have a curve to them because it's too big a stack for a straight mag, period. If you want to homebrew 30 rounders that aren't curved, you are very likely to fail to make a reliable mag. It would be easier if the mags were straight. Every mag designer has faced this issue. Don't try to reinvent that wheel because it just isn't going to work. To make mags of sheet metal, you must make forming dies. You might want to carefully cut apart an old magazine to get accurate measurements you'd need to design the forming dies. With a lathe, a mill, and a few accessories like a rotary table and a dividing head, you can make just about anything if you know how to do it or are willing to find out. CJ |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 11:22:06 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Using a manual milling machine and a few simple fixtures, you can turn raw AR lower forgings into good receivers. With a little extra tooling you can also make uppers. If you have a lathe and get rifled blanks, you can make barrels. If you really want to get serious, you could get the tools necessary to make barrels including doing the drilling and rifling. All it takes is money, dedication, and skill. Many very smart people have figured out what works in an AR magazine and does not work. All 30 rounders have a curve to them because it's too big a stack for a straight mag, period. If you want to homebrew 30 rounders that aren't curved, you are very likely to fail to make a reliable mag. It would be easier if the mags were straight. Every mag designer has faced this issue. Don't try to reinvent that wheel because it just isn't going to work. To make mags of sheet metal, you must make forming dies. You might want to carefully cut apart an old magazine to get accurate measurements you'd need to design the forming dies. With a lathe, a mill, and a few accessories like a rotary table and a dividing head, you can make just about anything if you know how to do it or are willing to find out. CJ How much ya figure? I'm in College, and getting my physique ready for going in the military. Budget is tough. SHeet metal seems like the only cost effective way. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 11:27:48 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Cast aluminum lower. Build a woodworking CNC. Bosch routers will make chips in wax or foam, no problem. Not following here. you can cast aluminum in wood? He means to take a Bosch woodworking router and use it as part of a milling machine. |
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Posted: 12/22/2012 11:45:42 PM EDT
[#13]
The FAMAS has a 25 round straight magazine, with a larger taper on the bottom as you speculated.
The easiest way to make a follower for a double stack magazine is out of a strip of steel bent to shame, then a dummy round screwed or soldered on to it to feed the others. |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 12:07:43 AM EDT
[#14]
removed
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Posted: 12/23/2012 12:19:46 AM EDT
[#15]
Invest ~$300 in a 3D printer. Get any 3D rendering software. Design. Print. ...... ? Profit.
Or go to thingiverse.com, someone has a lower ready to print there somewhere. Or I think I may have it saved somewhere too. |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 12:23:47 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Invest ~$300 in a 3D printer. Get any 3D rendering software. Design. Print. ...... ? Profit. Or go to thingiverse.com, someone has a lower ready to print there somewhere. Or I think I may have it saved somewhere too. Thingverse took anything weapon-related down after Sandy Hook. 
There are lots of AR and AK CAD files out there, though. |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 12:25:20 AM EDT
[#17]
I know someone made a 25 round mag out of 2, 20's. I wonder if they are still around and can speak for its reliability?
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Posted: 12/23/2012 1:02:47 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
I know someone made a 25 round mag out of 2, 20's. I wonder if they are still around and can speak for its reliability? That was done over in the Retro forum, recreating one of the early prototypes which had a 25 round mag. I don't know how much, if any, use it got. It may have only been for looks. In any case, it probably isn't worth while to do that on a large scale, not cost effective anyway. IMHO, if you had the ability to turn out reliable 20 round mags, that would be great. If you could make reliable 25 round mags, even better. However, given the choice between a perfectly reliable 20 round magazine (Ala the USGI 20s) and a less than perfectly reliable 25 or 30 round mag...I'd rather have 20 for sure than 25 or 30 maybe. |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 1:13:42 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I know someone made a 25 round mag out of 2, 20's. I wonder if they are still around and can speak for its reliability? That was done over in the Retro forum, recreating one of the early prototypes which had a 25 round mag. I don't know how much, if any, use it got. It may have only been for looks. In any case, it probably isn't worth while to do that on a large scale, not cost effective anyway. IMHO, if you had the ability to turn out reliable 20 round mags, that would be great. If you could make reliable 25 round mags, even better. However, given the choice between a perfectly reliable 20 round magazine (Ala the USGI 20s) and a less than perfectly reliable 25 or 30 round mag...I'd rather have 20 for sure than 25 or 30 maybe. the concept is to be able to make them in under circumstances where mags of the sort are not readily available. |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 2:32:41 AM EDT
[#20]
I agree with cm johnson on this,Ive been thinking about the homemade mag idea as well.Mr. Johnson is correct,mandrels would have to be made for the magazine halves,you would have to improvise some sort of forging/stamping press.Im thinking this would have to happen while the sheetmetal is red hot,at least with any improvised press.This is a opportune time to buy/print ,books/information about firearm/ammo making technologies,Ive been doing that off an on for some years now.I seriously need to start again.
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Posted: 12/23/2012 2:54:04 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
With a name like "Roebuck", you should make sears. 
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Posted: 12/23/2012 3:00:08 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted:
I'm not much help for this kind of topic, but I fully support where you are going with this. Best of luck. Likewise |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 3:04:01 AM EDT
[#23]
Removed
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Posted: 12/23/2012 3:05:46 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj606/roebuck1020/IMG_0811_zps437da70e.jpg trying to accommodate the design for stamped sheets, the buffer tube will be attached to the upper half since being attacahed to the lower would cause stress on a small amount of material. so the logical solution would be to move it othte upper for solidarity. the lower housing would only accommodation trigger housing and the magazine. Now you're getting somewhere. This is essentially the HK-type stamping setup. You're going to have to work some magic on the inside of the upper receiver to get an AR bolt carrier to ride properly. |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 3:09:42 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj606/roebuck1020/IMG_0811_zps437da70e.jpg trying to accommodate the design for stamped sheets, the buffer tube will be attached to the upper half since being attacahed to the lower would cause stress on a small amount of material. so the logical solution would be to move it othte upper for solidarity. the lower housing would only accommodation trigger housing and the magazine. Now you're getting somewhere. This is essentially the HK-type stamping setup. You're going to have to work some magic on the inside of the upper receiver to get an AR bolt carrier to ride properly. I think welding in some rails, OR! accomdate rails by neding the sheet /stamping like an HK has on the outside for the retractible stocks. |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 3:13:41 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj606/roebuck1020/IMG_0811_zps437da70e.jpg trying to accommodate the design for stamped sheets, the buffer tube will be attached to the upper half since being attacahed to the lower would cause stress on a small amount of material. so the logical solution would be to move it othte upper for solidarity. the lower housing would only accommodation trigger housing and the magazine. Now you're getting somewhere. This is essentially the HK-type stamping setup. You're going to have to work some magic on the inside of the upper receiver to get an AR bolt carrier to ride properly. I think welding in some rails, OR! accomdate rails by neding the sheet /stamping like an HK has on the outside for the retractible stocks. Do you have an AR handy? |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 3:15:54 AM EDT
[#27]
Good luck with this!  I shall be watching to see how you get on.  |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 4:54:44 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj606/roebuck1020/IMG_0811_zps437da70e.jpg trying to accommodate the design for stamped sheets, the buffer tube will be attached to the upper half since being attacahed to the lower would cause stress on a small amount of material. so the logical solution would be to move it othte upper for solidarity. the lower housing would only accommodation trigger housing and the magazine. Now you're getting somewhere. This is essentially the HK-type stamping setup. You're going to have to work some magic on the inside of the upper receiver to get an AR bolt carrier to ride properly. I think welding in some rails, OR! accomdate rails by neding the sheet /stamping like an HK has on the outside for the retractible stocks. Do you have an AR handy? a 6920 |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 4:58:00 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
http://i1270.photobucket.com/albums/jj606/roebuck1020/IMG_0811_zps437da70e.jpg trying to accommodate the design for stamped sheets, the buffer tube will be attached to the upper half since being attacahed to the lower would cause stress on a small amount of material. so the logical solution would be to move it othte upper for solidarity. the lower housing would only accommodation trigger housing and the magazine. Now you're getting somewhere. This is essentially the HK-type stamping setup. You're going to have to work some magic on the inside of the upper receiver to get an AR bolt carrier to ride properly. I think welding in some rails, OR! accomdate rails by neding the sheet /stamping like an HK has on the outside for the retractible stocks. Do you have an AR handy? a 6920 Pull the BCG and get a good look at the interior of the upper receiver. You're going to have to replicate that with sheet metal. |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 4:59:39 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
With a name like "Roebuck", you should make sears. Ba-Dump-BAH!!!! NICE!!
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Posted: 12/23/2012 5:11:24 AM EDT
[#31]
You might want to take a look at the David Gingery series of books on building a machine shop (Lathe, Milling Machine, Drill Press, etc) with a Charcoal furnace and aluminum castings. I have read a few of the books but never attempted it. His sketches/blueprints are not that good, wish he had improved them. He also has some books on sheet metal work. If you were to attempt to build a rifle of any sort from scratch, I would look at developing all of the tools and equipment necessary.
First book here The Charcoal foundry |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 5:16:11 AM EDT
[#32]
Go adopt an Afghani kid. Those little Khyber pass fuckers can bang out anything.
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Posted: 12/23/2012 5:30:32 AM EDT
[#33]
AL forms fine, cold as does steel. Steel would be easier to weld, consistently.
WRT making your own: It would make paying the current 60 bucks apiece look like the deal of the century. WRT making them in a home workshop: It would be possible but only by someone with the experience and proper tools. It would take me about two weeks to make the punches, dies, etc. To punch out that large a blank take s a pretty big press. If you have a laser or water jet cutter, and you're doing under a few hundred mags, it would be cheaper. Making magazines is almost voodoo science. Ask any mag manufacturer. It's why most gun designers try to design around an existing successful mag. Very small things can make the difference between a good and bad one. I've been a toolmaker for over 25 years with plenty of draw die and sheet metal forming experience and I would NOT want to tool up to make AR magazines. |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 7:19:26 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Pull the BCG and get a good look at the interior of the upper receiver. You're going to have to replicate that with sheet metal. Tubing would be easier... |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 7:51:06 AM EDT
[#35]
Would it be easier to rent a 3D printer and make straight wall magazines?
http://www.sfgate.com/business/article/Guns-can-be-made-on-3-D-printers-4140804.php http://www.createitforme.com/3d-printer-rent-it If a lower can be made on a rented machine and all the other parts can be purchased then we could build M4's at home The para ord upper is particulary suited for this task as it uses no buffer and the lower can be made much thicker. If there are pressure or quality control issues then an a direct blowback M4 9mm upper could be empolyed. Besides how many M4,M9, uzi and sten mags are out there? |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 8:03:14 AM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 12/23/2012 8:09:51 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: This is the truth. I looked at making the dies. I have all the equipment including the presses. I decided buying mags from an existing manufacturer was simpler and cost effective.AL forms fine, cold as does steel. Steel would be easier to weld, consistently. WRT making your own: It would make paying the current 60 bucks apiece look like the deal of the century. WRT making them in a home workshop: It would be possible but only by someone with the experience and proper tools. It would take me about two weeks to make the punches, dies, etc. To punch out that large a blank take s a pretty big press. If you have a laser or water jet cutter, and you're doing under a few hundred mags, it would be cheaper. Making magazines is almost voodoo science. Ask any mag manufacturer. It's why most gun designers try to design around an existing successful mag. Very small things can make the difference between a good and bad one. I've been a toolmaker for over 25 years with plenty of draw die and sheet metal forming experience and I would NOT want to tool up to make AR magazines. I read these threads of guys wanting to fab everything but they lack equipment. I can make anything i desire, but rarely do. I still haven't finished my raw lowers. I do this stuff all day long for other people, i don't feel like fussing with it. I'll pay the guys who specialize. |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 8:34:07 AM EDT
[#38]
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Posted: 12/23/2012 9:06:50 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
AL forms fine, cold as does steel. Steel would be easier to weld, consistently. WRT making your own: It would make paying the current 60 bucks apiece look like the deal of the century. WRT making them in a home workshop: It would be possible but only by someone with the experience and proper tools. It would take me about two weeks to make the punches, dies, etc. To punch out that large a blank take s a pretty big press. If you have a laser or water jet cutter, and you're doing under a few hundred mags, it would be cheaper. Making magazines is almost voodoo science. Ask any mag manufacturer. It's why most gun designers try to design around an existing successful mag. Very small things can make the difference between a good and bad one. I've been a toolmaker for over 25 years with plenty of draw die and sheet metal forming experience and I would NOT want to tool up to make AR magazines. That's why I'm playing off other designs and replicating the same curvatures and feed lines. Using fiberglass and carbon, and some fun marine resins, because I had them sitting here from some boat hull repairs and I don't have a 100 ton press to do quality sheet metal work. I've already created moulds and I'll post pics once I'm done playing around with lessons learned (what seems to work and what doesn't). What seems to be feeding VERY well right now is one I made yesterday using a marine fiber laminate job with an outer shell of kydex. Kydex was EASY to form to the magwell requirements using crappy tools, and comes out reasonably hard. Feed lips are killing me though - I may have to laminate in sheet steel for those. I can't speak for their durability yet, although surviving my ham fisted construction process does seem to block any weak making it through! 
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Posted: 12/23/2012 9:12:03 AM EDT
[#40]
High cap mags are a definite target for additive manufacturing (a.k.a. 3-d printing).
Only metal would be the spring. |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 9:13:19 AM EDT
[#41]
No reason carbon fiber cloth composite wouldn't work. You would need left and right half molds, inner and outer. Lay up, compress and let cure. Trim out, then join the halves with epoxy. Probably stronger than the Zytel Magpul uses. And someone could make the molds from silicone rubber using a USGI magazine as the pattern.
Floor plates are very simple, followers and springs not so much. |
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Posted: 12/23/2012 12:19:41 PM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 12/24/2012 10:00:59 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
No reason carbon fiber cloth composite wouldn't work. You would need left and right half molds, inner and outer. Lay up, compress and let cure. Trim out, then join the halves with epoxy. Probably stronger than the Zytel Magpul uses. And someone could make the molds from silicone rubber using a USGI magazine as the pattern. Floor plates are very simple, followers and springs not so much. I'm practicing using standard fiberglass cloth and marine resins, but plan on using carbon fibre for my final run to cut weight. I've been using a simple lost wax cast forms but your silicone idea sounds excellent - I may head for supplies later this week - My wife has also requested that I stop "stinking up the garage and yard" with whatever I'm working on until after Christmas too, so I'll put some brain power on the problem over the next few days. To anyone interested in the process: Straight walled mags don't work well. Straight walls had (1) too much friction and (2) without relief channels it was just a question of time to blockage failure for any dirt gettting inside the mag body. I have resorted to cheaters (various pieces of metal - usually lengths of wire hangers) embedded in the resin to form inner rails. I've been thinking about embedding two delrin rails - I have some sitting here and it would keep the insides slick. With sufficient enmeshing the delrin should hold solid forever. While a laminated, multipiece design is not cost effective for mass manufacturers or supplying armies, for me I am interested in the strongest, most durable, best feeding design possible and with Pmags selling for 2x the prices of USGI's during the ban building $20-30 indestructible mags in my garage is now cost effective. Even if I only end up with a mag that's too heavy for "combat" use, I'll have range and training mags I can use and thereby save my USGIs and Pmags for SHTF. For the springs and followers: I'm keeping it simple using Magpul and USGI green followers, and and standard 30 round springs. Maybe someday I'll experiment with followers but I think it'd be easier to build a belt fed than to try and learn how to make constant tension springs. The results so far are ugly (I'm not sanding/polishing the outsides yet) but I'm optimistic (and it's fun - I enjoy challenges like this). |
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Posted: 12/24/2012 10:14:07 AM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Im thinking this would have to happen while the sheetmetal is red hot,at least with any improvised press. I can personally assure you that sheet steel far thicker than any that would be needed for a magazine body can be formed at room temperatire even with the crudest, improvised tools. |
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Posted: 12/24/2012 10:29:04 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
With a name like "Roebuck", you should make sears. Ba-Dump-BAH!!!! 
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Posted: 12/24/2012 10:35:50 AM EDT
[#46]
Have access to a 3d printer?
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Posted: 12/24/2012 10:40:19 AM EDT
[#47]
You need a real CAD program.
I use SolidWorks and CATIA for a living as a mechanical designer. |
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Posted: 12/24/2012 11:23:40 AM EDT
[#48]
Is there a CNC 101 that I can read to get a fundemental understanding of the process?
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Posted: 12/24/2012 12:01:03 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Is there a CNC 101 that I can read to get a fundemental understanding of the process? http://www.cnczone.com/forums/ is the ARFCOM of the CNC world. I am working on building (have all the parts, just need a free afternoon to build it) Shapeoko 2.5 axis CNC router, though I do plan on purchasing a Grizzly G0704 mill and converting it to CNC for hobby projects...a AR reciever would be a snap on it. Generally your process goes like this: (super simplified!) CAD program (Design phase) -> CAM program (This converts your 3d model into GCode that the machine understands) GCode interpreter connected to CNC which actually controls the machine. 7.5" AR I mocked up. (Yes, I crudely chopped the RIS down from the 10.3" barrel variant, I was just looking at OAL dimensions there.)  |
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Posted: 12/24/2012 12:09:19 PM EDT
[#50]
Get me a print and ill be able to do one. Have a haas vf-2
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