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Austrian
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:07:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/16/2012 1:08:23 PM EST by Austrian]
I don't think I am remotely exaggerating when I say that just in the last two days I have literally corrected 250 citations on murder rates, gun death rates, suicide rates, and firearms law in Switzerland. And no wonder.

For almost two decades, Switzerland has been a common "go to" reference to support the notion that guns are not the primary source of gun violence. If you carefully examine the facts on the ground in Switzerland you find this is quite supportable. The Swiss experience suggests that guns are not the source of gun violence, rather violence is the source of gun violence. Who knew?

Be this as it may, a number of weak commentaries have cropped up since the awful events in Connecticut last week. Among them is an almost totally fact-free article in the Business Insider by Adam Taylor entitled Why Switzerland Is A Red-Herring In The Gun Control Debate and a bit of utter nonsense called Mythbusting: Israel and Switzerland are not gun-toting utopias scratched out in a hurry by Erza Klein (a frequent purveyor of poorly researched Oxen feces) of the Washington Post. Both of these have been making the rounds the last 48 hours as if they were the newest gospel of gun control).

The Klein piece cites his interview with "Janet Rosenbaum, an assistant professor of epidemiology at the School of Public Health at the State University of New York (SUNY) Downstate Medical Center School":

Ezra Klein: Israel and Switzerland are often mentioned as countries that prove that high rates of gun ownership don’t necessarily lead to high rates of gun crime. In fact, I wrote that on Friday. But you say your research shows that’s not true.

Janet Rosenbaum: First of all, because they don’t have high levels of gun ownership. The gun ownership in Israel and Switzerland has decreased.

For instance, in Israel, they’re very limited in who is able to own a gun. There are only a few tens of thousands of legal guns in Israel, and the only people allowed to own them legally live in the settlements, do business in the settlements, or are in professions at risk of violence.

Both countries require you to have a reason to have a gun. There isn’t this idea that you have a right to a gun. You need a reason. And then you need to go back to the permitting authority every six months or so to assure them the reason is still valid.

The second thing is that there’s this widespread misunderstanding that Israel and Switzerland promote gun ownership. They don’t. Ten years ago, when Israel had the outbreak of violence, there was an expansion of gun ownership, but only to people above a certain rank in the military. There was no sense that having ordinary citizens [carry guns] would make anything safer.

Switzerland has also been moving away from having widespread guns. The laws are done canton by canton, which is like a province. Everyone in Switzerland serves in the army, and the cantons used to let you have the guns at home. They’ve been moving to keeping the guns in depots. That means they’re not in the household, which makes sense because the literature shows us that if the gun is in the household, the risk goes up for everyone in the household.


At least with respect to Switzerland, Dr. Rosenbaum is so far off it is painful to read. In fact, for us locals, it is downright offensive. It is prose so blatantly wrong that it is hard to decide if it is simply gross negligence in scholarship or actual malfeasance. If we Swiss (or Swiss-Austrians, as the case may be) are going to be pulled by smug academics into your gun control fight over there in the United States you better damn well have your damn facts right. You, Dr. Rosenbaum, and yes, I am talking directly to you now, don't make the cut. In fact, so far as I am able to determine, you nothing more than a cheap hack characterized primarily by seriously weak moral fiber. (Hey Janet, I'm in Manhattan next month. Coffee?)

The charitable explanation is that Klein was careless with fact-checking and that the study Dr. Rosenbaum authored, Gun utopias? Firearm access and ownership in Israel and Switzerland, (and which, while it was published in the Journal of Public Health Policy in February of 2012 was actually first released in November of 2011) actually was based on data Dr. Rosenbaum stopped collecting in 2010 or early 2011. More on this in a moment.

In my considered opinion, it is very difficult to be this generous. In my considered opinion, the more realistic explanation is that Rosenbaum and Klein have an axe to grind and are more than willing to twist, fabricate and manipulate to do it while they contort themselves into limb-weaving knots to produce their secret, progressive policy love child.

Dr. Rosenbaum (whose primary claim to fame appears to be that her dissertation on "virginity pledges and adolescents' inconsistent reporting of their sexual histories" was covered by Saturday Night Live's Weekend Update) conducted her initial research in response to the shooting of Gabrielle Dee "Gabby" Giffords. She admits as much in her abstract:

The 2011 attempted assassination of a US representative renewed the national gun control debate. Gun advocates claim mass-casualty events are mitigated and deterred with three policies: (a) permissive gun laws, (b) widespread gun ownership, (c) and encouragement of armed civilians who can intercept shooters. They cite Switzerland and Israel as exemplars. We evaluate these claims with analysis of International Crime Victimization Survey (ICVS) data and translation of laws and original source material. Swiss and Israeli laws limit firearm ownership and require permit renewal one to four times annually. ICVS analysis finds the United States has more firearms per capita and per household than either country. Switzerland and Israel curtail off-duty soldiers' firearm access to prevent firearm deaths. Suicide among soldiers decreased by 40 per cent after the Israeli army's 2006 reforms. Compared with the United States, Switzerland and Israel have lower gun ownership and stricter gun laws, and their policies discourage personal gun ownership.


But what is most interesting about Dr. Rosenbaum's study is how little, despite its provocative title, it actually says. Let's take the assertions Dr. Rosenbaum makes one by one, shall we?

First of all, because they don’t have high levels of gun ownership. The gun ownership in Israel and Switzerland has decreased.


Pretending for a moment that the phase "has decreased" without a time horizon is meaningful ("Now new and improved!"), with respect to Switzerland I literally have no idea where Dr. Rosenbaum gets this concept from. The two phrases "...they don't have high levels of gun ownership" and "...the gun ownership level in Israel and Switzerland has decreased" sound complimentary, but are really meaningless. "...don't have high levels of gun ownership" compared to what exactly? "Decreased" over what time period and by how much? We are left to wonder... unless, that is, we actually check some facts. (Just relax. I know that's shocking. The ushers have air-sickness bags if you need them).

The latest statistics from the Bundesamt für Statistik of the Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft (the Swiss Federal Statistical Office) for the year 2011 show the following:

Of approximately 2 million privately owned firearms (this is an estimate because not all firearms in Switzerland are registered [the horror... the horror...] another non-government source says 3 million):

Around 900,000 are former Sturmgewehr 90 (the military version of the SIG 550 that is issued to all militia) or prior versions that have been turned over to citizens after the end of their militia obligations.

Around 260,000 are current issue Sturmgewehr 90 held by current militia members (select fire, etc.)

The rest are privately held firearms, probably predominately handguns.

This means that only about 12% of firearms are related to active militia service. The rest are in private hands for private purposes. With a population of around 8,000,000 this implies a firearm per capita figure of 0.25. The common measure of firearms ownership per capita is usually "guns per 100 residents." On that basis you end up with between 25.0 and 37.5 per 100 residents. In 2011 that puts Switzerland in the top 20 or the top 4 depending, above Iraq, Egypt, Afghanistan, Libya, and Syria on the high end and exceeded only by the United States, Yemen, and Serbia.

Somehow this translates to "...don't have high levels of gun ownership." Or something. Compared to where? The United States? Well, that's easy. No one has higher levels than the United States.

Compared with the United States, Switzerland and Israel have lower gun ownership....


Oh... sorry... I'll go home now. Well, maybe not just yet....

If you look at the percentage of Swiss households that possess a firearm the ratio gets much higher (married or co-habitating couples where the man has a firearm owing to mandatory service and the women did not volunteer for service would have one for two people plus the kids).

Plus, the Swiss army pulls in (and issues Sturmgewehr 90's to) 20,000-30,000 new militia members every year. At current numbers that's a STRUCTURAL 1% increase in weapons per year, only from the Army issued rifles and not counting private sales (which are likely higher since new issuances are ONLY for 18 year olds, though I have no specific stats there). I know of no other country in which this is so.

It is not clear where Rosenbaum gets her figures, but they defy logic.

Then again, it is possible that since Switzerland has increased the number of residents permits they grant and opened the borders to the EU via the Schengen Agreement (may it die screaming in pain), the denominator for that ratio (people) has increased faster than the numerator (firearms). If so then that should have been noted. It wasn't.

I might point out that, at least in her study, Dr. Rosenbaum seems comfortable conflating some subjective measure of "access to firearms" with "firearms ownership." By any real measure Switzerland has been among the top 5 countries in terms of firearms ownership per capita for decades, or more. That position has not and is not likely to slip.

Dr. Rosenbaum then asserts:

Both countries require you to have a reason to have a gun. There isn’t this idea that you have a right to a gun. You need a reason. And then you need to go back to the permitting authority every six months or so to assure them the reason is still valid.


With respect to Switzerland this is utter nonsense.

There is no effective "justification" requirement for the general permit to purchase firearms. There is a space to enter "purpose" on the form for statistical purposes, but unless you put in "murder and mayhem" this is ignored except for data collection (and it might not even be noticed if you do). Then again, perhaps Dr. Rosenbaum is referring to the "may issue" nature of many kantonal requirements for a CARRY permit.

The Federal Government in Switzerland provides the authorization for kantons to issue a "carry permit" which applies to both concealed and open carry of loaded firearms (as opposed to mere "transportation" which you see often as citizens or citizen militia jump on the train with their unloaded rifle strapped to their back). Some kantons treat "may issue" as a rubber stamp. Some have effective "won't issue" policies. Same as the United States.

As for the right to own firearms, this, along with the right to self defense, is enshrined rather indelibly in Swiss law- in particular the Federal law on permitting. The various kantons cannot ban private firearms ownership outright. Here Dr. Rosenbaum is just ignorant. I know, you are gripped with paralyzing surprise. It will be ok. We will show the BluRay cut of Heat with director's commentary in the main hall later.

The same is true of the claim that one must actively re-justify every year. That may be true in some of the tighter kantons with respect to CARRY permits, but it is absolutely not true for the permit to possess or purchase firearms and ammunition.

Then there is this:

The second thing is that there’s this widespread misunderstanding that Israel and Switzerland promote gun ownership. They don’t.


I have no basis to opine on Israel, but I'm not sure how a program dedicated to handing out 20,000-30,000 free select assault rifles per year which citizens can buy at discount rates after their service isn't an effort to "promote gun ownership". Not to mention the annual national shooting festival/competition in Switzerland (the "Feldschiessen") that draws between 150.000 and 250,000 participants annually. (Compare this to, say, Camp Perry). In addition, the Swiss version of the NRA ("ProTell") is highly active in promoting responsible firearms ownership. Practice ranges litter Switzerland (I pass five on the 30km trek to Zürich from my office).

Dr. Rosenbaum then says:

Switzerland has also been moving away from having widespread guns. The laws are done canton by canton, which is like a province. Everyone in Switzerland serves in the army, and the cantons used to let you have the guns at home. They’ve been moving to keeping the guns in depots. That means they’re not in the household, which makes sense because the literature shows us that if the gun is in the household, the risk goes up for everyone in the household.


Notice how little this ACTUALLY says. She says Switzerland is moving away from having widespread guns- she provides no authority for this. And what exactly does "moving away" mean? She then erroneously suggests that gun laws are fully kanton by kanton. Literally: "...[t]he laws are done canton by canton" (ignoring the Federal guarantee of right to possess and the right of self-defense). She then says "Everyone in Switzerland serves in the army..." which is false. Women are not subject to mandatory service (though they can volunteer-and I am exceptionally proud to note that some years ago a member of my own family was one of the earliest women to serve in one of the most elite Swiss volunteer units... I bet she racked up more jumps than you!) and men can opt out and serve in the civil corps instead (though the term is longer and it ends up being expensive). Oddly, these individuals can still buy firearms in Switzerland.

Then Dr. Rosenbaum drops this whopper:

"...the cantons used to let you have the guns at home. They’ve been moving to keeping the guns in depots."

Notice again this "moving to" language, which is both deceptive and meaningless. In this particular case it is also totally false.

I have to think that this is, in fact, an almost abusive perversion of the 2011 firearms referendum initiative in Switzerland "Für den Schutz vor Waffengewalt" ("For the protection of gun violence'). Among the provisions in this referendum was the requirement that military weapons be kept in the local depots instead of at home, to be retrieved when and if necessary in times of emergency, along with a full registration program, a requirement to "show necessity" and a host of other regulations that would make Switzerland look like the rest of gelded Europe. It's effect on private sales and ownership, however, wasn't totally clear (but was probably minimal).

Dr. Rosenbaum apparently never bothered to check because if she had she would know that this referendum was resoundingly defeated. And I don't mean MSNBC "resoundingly." I mean "resoundingly."

Specifically, it lost the popular vote by 12.5 points and 75% of the kantons rejected it. (Referendums must pass both the popular vote AND the majority of kantons). The defeat was so severe that the anti-gun lobby in Switzerland has effectively vanished in its wake. Smack.

"Moving away from having widespread guns?" Sure, Dr. Rosenbaum. "Tell us another one, Grandma!"

But any number of crazy stats haunt the amazing outline of the Swiss firearm experience. For example:

Many people like to cite this Wikipedia article to suggest:

1. Deaths by firearms in Switzerland are the highest in Europe.
2. Homicides by firearm in Switzerland are the highest in Europe.
3. Suicides by firearm in Switzerland are the highest in Europe.

I've noticed that even in the last 48 hours the article has been changed. It used to list figures from 1994 (while the remainder of countries were more modern). Even now it purports to evidence the following statistics:

Homicides by firearm: 0.52 per 100,000 residents
Suicides by firearm: 3.15 per 100,000 residents
Total firearm-related deaths: 3.50 per 100,000 residents.

While this is a big improvement it is entirely wrong. I suspect part of the problem is the poor German and French skills of Wikipedia editors.

Official statistics from the Bundesamt für Statistik are:

Firearm Related Deaths:

2006: 285
2007: 291
2008: 259
2009: 277
2010: 241

Homicides by Firearm:

2006: 26
2007: 27
2008: 20
2009: 24
2010: 19

Please note: Because most reporters and researchers are total mouth-breathers, the figure for ACTUAL fatalities in homicides in Switzerland is confused with attempted homicides or homicide "offenses." As an example, when three kids run into a Kwik-E-Mart and wax Apu (yes, highly HIGHLY unlikely in Switzerland) all three are charged with "homicide" (it is similar to the "felony murder" rule in the United States). One gun fatality. Three "gun-related homicide offenses." Of course, it serves many "scholars" to be careless about these statistics (plus they don't read German or French). The actual statistics are here: http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/de/index/themen/19/03/02/dos/03.html.

Interesting to note: Suicide is not a "crime" in Switzerland, as it is technically legal. Many "scholars" will try to include the suicide rate (or omit the suicide rate from other countries when they make comparisons).

To be clear, with a population that is over 8,000,000 people (but we will round down to be conservative) the per capita figures for firearms related deaths and homicides by firearm (note these are NOT the same figure) per 100,000 people (the standard measure) are:

Firearm Related Deaths Per 100,000 people:

2006: 3.5750
2007: 3.6375
2008: 3.2375
2009: 3.4625
2010: 3.0125

Homicides by Firearm Per 100,000 people:

2006: 0.3250
2007: 0.3375
2008: 0.2500
2009: 0.3000
2010: 0.2375

To be clear, these figures are literally the best in the developed world for a country with any sort of firearms freedom for citizens (the UK has great stats at the expense of near total prohibition).

So to summarize:

- Switzerland is now in (and has for more than two decades been in) in the top 5 countries in the world when it comes to per capita firearms ownership.

- Mixing years a bit but with respect to homicides by firearm Switzerland is almost exactly equal to France (0.22 in 2009) and Denmark (0.22 in 2006), The Netherlands (0.20 in 2010), and is better than Finland (0.26 in 2010), Belgium (0.29 in 2006), Ireland (0.36 in 2010), Italy (0.36 in 2009), Portugal (0.48 in 2010), and Luxembourg (!!!) (0.60 in 2009).

You have to kick in suicides (which are technically not crimes given their legality) to get up to 3.01 per 100k. The United States, by contrast, was 2.98 with respect to homicides and 9.00 (!!!) for total deaths by firearm with mixed stats from 2008-2010.

It is perhaps possible for someone to try to claim that gun deaths are a problem in Switzerland, but only after drinking seventeen Hurricanes on a 4 day "Washington Post/New York Times Progressive" Florida-Bahamas Cruise (sponsored by Princess Cruises and featuring Paul Krugman!)

You will hear a number of other claims about Swiss gun laws/rights. For instance:

Claim: Firearms must now be stored in depots and cannot be kept in a private residence.

FALSE: This seems to be a carry over from what was proposed in the 2011 referendum. It isn't clear where else it could have come from. The Rosenbaum study / paper / article seems to suggest that it is only a matter of time before this policy is passed- all evidence to the contrary. At least, I hope this isn't true, because my SIG 551, 552 and 550 are all sitting about 5 meters from my chair right now, next to several boxes of ammo.

Claim: The possession of ammunition is now banned for citizens.

FALSE: This is often an inadvertent (or willful) misunderstanding of the recent change in policy by the Swiss Army. In the past an active militia member was issued their Sturmgewehr 90 along with their kit (helmet, body armor, camo, etc.) and a sealed container with ammunition (GP 90 in my day) free of charge. The Army has since stopped issuing the ammo. The original intent was for the ammo to be used by the citizen to fight their way to the rally point. Recently this policy has been rescinded (though more for cost than for anything else). Citizen soldiers are now expected to arrive at rally points in full kit with rifle in times of emergency and will be provided with ammunition there. Private sales of ammunition (including .223 and 5.56 NATO) are totally unaffected. I've got 5.56 ammo in my closet.

Claim: The Swiss figures for firearms per capita are so high because there are so many militia weapons.

FALSE: Sturmgewehr 90s that are issued to active militia members comprise only about 12% of all privately held weapons. Citizens can buy their weapon after their service term is over and many do (to the tune of nearly a million former militia weapons). A mere 260,000 are current-duty militia related weapons (and this doesn't count pistols issued to officers / support troops). Citizens (or residents, actually) can also buy anything from a SIG 550 to an AK in Switzerland. Private sales are not restricted.

Claim: Permits to buy firearms in Switzerland require the applicant to demonstrate need.

FALSE: Total nonsense. Unfortunately, many "scholars" look to some of the more restrictive kantons and pull their requirements for a CARRY permit and assume those requirements are universal for all firearms. In fact there is no "need based" requirement to purchase firearms and to the extent there is a "need based" requirement for a CCW/Open Carry permit it varies in application by kanton. (Effectively you have "shall issue unless stupid" "may issue" and "won't issue" in Switzerland, same as in the United States.

A complete refutation of the misunderstandings vis-a-vis Swiss firearms law would consume more space than the Ammo Oracle. Perhaps it will suffice to point out the following:

It is a routine experience to jump on a train in Switzerland and see teenaged/tween females with shouldered SIG 550s on or SIG 550s in the luggage rack headed to the range to practice for the annual competition. Clearly, they are not headed to militia exercises, clearly they are not Army, clearly they are not police. Certainly, there are progressive forces who will experience unbearable cranial pain before collapsing and expiring owing to a cerebral embolism if confronted with this basic fact. Clearly, there is a need by the "left" to twist and minimize the Swiss firearms experience to suit their own needs (or at least to avoid doing damage to same).

Don't give in.

Switzerland IS a "gun toting utopia." Come visit. We'll take you shooting.


Have questions? Need clarifications or (gasp) more statistics? Post your needs in comments. I will happily dig out whatever you need to batter back the forces of darkness and ignorance. (Well, within reason. The forces of darkness and ignorance have had a pretty good recruiting season the last half-decade).
74novaman
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:12:37 PM EST
Fantastic! Still reading through everything, but thank you for taking the time to write out such a detailed post.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:19:37 PM EST
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:26:53 PM EST
Good job! I hope you emailed that to those leftist dolts.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:28:05 PM EST
OP...your brain...I must massage it...it has made my research easier.
elcope
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:28:08 PM EST
Fantastic as usual Mr Austrian.

So, the Taschenmunition was removed from service solely as a cost savings measure?
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:28:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By 74novaman:

Fantastic! Still reading through everything, but thank you for taking the time to write out such a detailed post.


12.5, 15.50, 18.5

Poznai Sebia ...
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:32:20 PM EST
I hate to use the term "owned", as in "pwned". But you just fucking owned them. There's no other way to put it.
Originally Posted By VBC:
I would hope so. Because I am old school as you will ever get. And old school one this motherfucking country. Not some pansy ass shit. And this country is all you have.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:32:55 PM EST
Great read.
Send that in to Townhall
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Comparing your few, brilliant, in-depth posts to my many (many, many) crap ones is frankly embarrassing.
Good work!

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What round for rampaging ladyboy? Time is of the essence!
flyfishnepa
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:36:24 PM EST
awesome post, bump


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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:39:31 PM EST
9/10 needs more fucks
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:40:24 PM EST
Right click. Save As.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:41:24 PM EST
Austrian always delivers.
Originally Posted By Tom-from-Michigan:
I have fired my rifles in the rain, but that is not the same as firing one after rising out of the water.
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[Last Edit: 12/16/2012 12:44:37 PM EST by tommytomaso]
Bravo!!!!!!! , by the way LOVE my K31!!!!
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:45:49 PM EST
Great info. and post. Thanks.
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tag. great work op
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:46:34 PM EST
Zurich Airport sucks. That is the extent of my experience in your country. I avoid it now.

Seriously, though - thanks for the post. You remains the highest ratio of quality posts by a long-term member by far, and this is why.

When the facts are on your side, there is no need to resort to drama, hyperbole, misdirection, or outright lies.

Thanks for bringing my - our - attention to that atrocious paper by Janet Rosenbaum, as I - we - will no doubt hear it referenced again in the future.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:48:30 PM EST
Originally Posted By elcope:
Fantastic as usual Mr Austrian.

So, the Taschenmunition was removed from service solely as a cost savings measure?


Not "solely" I suppose. I think the Army thought it was an easy bone to toss to the left that did no real harm and saved them money to boot.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:49:51 PM EST
Thanks for this!
Umiatsiaasara pullattagaq nimerussanik ulikkaarpoq
RayGunz2
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:53:42 PM EST
Brilliant work sir. Thank you.
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Originally Posted By Buckeye67:
Thanks for this!


Yep. That was some of the best reading I've had on ARFCOM.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:56:27 PM EST
Wow you win all the internets of the day.

I remember the referendum on gun rights in Switzerland. The media here were falling all over themselves predicting massive wins for the gun grabbers while claiming the Swiss had an extremely high gun violence rate.

Membership thanks to Retgarr ! Thanks buddy !
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Posted: 12/16/2012 12:58:36 PM EST
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:00:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By Obo2:
9/10 needs more fucks


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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:01:46 PM EST
thanks OP, that was very informative. However, you give ms rosenbaum too much credit. I'm sure she knows her research is bullshit and doesn't care that she's lying since she has good intentions and the ends justify the means.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:03:57 PM EST
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That's it, I'm moving to Switzerland.

I am a researcher. It is questionable how this woman was allowed her Ph. D.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:04:58 PM EST
Great post.

I had an argument with an anti-gun American on Facebook and he posted that BI-article.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:12:28 PM EST
Brilliant! Just brilliant!
"You just flipped the safety selector on this thread from "Stupid' to "Full Retard" and started spraying lunacy from the hip in all directions."LoganSackett
... كافر
Hey-Mikey
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:13:55 PM EST
Originally Posted By Austrian:
Switzerland IS a "gun toting utopia." Come visit. We'll take you shooting.


Just as soon as I win the lottery.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:14:17 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/16/2012 1:14:40 PM EST by JmPnTX]
Awesome. I'd love to come shoot some select fire Sig 550's

goldtop
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:15:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Austrian always delivers.


Yep.
Originally Posted By PlaneJane:
I knew if I stayed here long enough, I'd encounter someone who couldn't even spell "vagina".
simplemitch
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:15:48 PM EST
Excellent post, Sir. If only this could make it to a major news outlet and be REQUIRED reading for it's "journalists".
"Hey, does this rag smell like chloroform to you?....."

"Ours is the age that is proud of machines that think and suspicious of men who try to." -H. Mumford Jones
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:19:04 PM EST
You should consider submitting this to BI in response. It would be interesting to see if they publish you.
Agent_Funky
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:27:52 PM EST
An outstanding, insightful and extremely interesting post.

Thank you

Please distribute this far and wide.
I saw a movie once where only the police and military had guns. It was called Schindler's List.

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131050
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:32:30 PM EST
Wow. Thanks for the write-up.
Lon_Moer
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:42:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Austrian always delivers.

Yes, he does.
I knew daredevils and I ain't got nothin' against them, ........it's just they're all dead.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:47:49 PM EST
Emailed her a link. Asked her to register and offer rebuttal.

The chances of that happening? 1 in 87.
HeavyMetal
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:50:23 PM EST
Woud you be willing to submit this for publication cleaned-up a bit if I can arrange something?
I suppose it is possible to convey more ignorance with less words, but I doubt I will ever see it in my lifetime.--Bohr Adam

If LAV promotes using the slide lock/release to chamber a round after a mag change, then he should be ignored.-MP0117
Steve_T_M
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:51:28 PM EST
Bitch slapped with the facts.
Arfpocalypse Now 3: Herby and the Bandit

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1291210_Arfpocalypse_Now_3__Herby_and_the_Bandit__an_Arfcomics_production_.html
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:52:33 PM EST
Most excellent
Schlange
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Posted: 12/16/2012 1:59:23 PM EST


Excellent work.
Fuck Obama
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Posted: 12/16/2012 2:03:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/16/2012 3:05:35 PM EST by Gamma762]
This post..... delivers

ETA: if Switzerland could squeeze in an English speaking canton, you'd fill it overnight.

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This is...a clue - Pat_Rogers
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, FL, MI, SC, NH - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
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Posted: 12/16/2012 2:12:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/16/2012 2:14:05 PM EST by Hammer2Fall]
Great post!


Originally Posted By HeavyMetal:
Woud you be willing to submit this for publication cleaned-up a bit if I can arrange something?


Thinking a similar thought.
Because a man who'd trade his liberty for a safe and dreamless sleep doesn't deserve the both of them, and neither shall he keep. - Frank Turner

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DK-Prof
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Posted: 12/16/2012 2:18:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By Slu54:
That's it, I'm moving to Switzerland.

I am a researcher. It is questionable how this woman was allowed her Ph. D.


The majority of people with PhDs are NOT competent or properly trained researchers. A substantial proportion are complete fucking morons.
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Posted: 12/16/2012 2:20:09 PM EST
Bravo, Austrian.

With this post you've knocked one over the fence and into the cheap seats.

Again, bravo, well done.
"I yelled "HEY!! W.T.F!!!?? as I pointed my M-OU812 urban ass-salt axe handle menacingly at him, just daring him to come take my gummy bears!"
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Posted: 12/16/2012 2:28:34 PM EST
Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By Slu54:
That's it, I'm moving to Switzerland.

I am a researcher. It is questionable how this woman was allowed her Ph. D.


The majority of people with PhDs are NOT competent or properly trained researchers. A substantial proportion are complete fucking morons.


I've been called a complete fucking moron, where do I send off for my PhD?
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Posted: 12/16/2012 2:34:14 PM EST
"Those embassy attacks? I didn't do that. Someone else made that happen!" ~BHO
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nick89302
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Posted: 12/16/2012 2:36:10 PM EST
I always look forward to your posts. Thank you.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
cableguy221
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Posted: 12/16/2012 2:38:46 PM EST
bookmarked, very well done
Originally Posted By Dtrain323i:
I've said it before and I'll say it again
In a survival situation i'd want Les Stround
For a bar fight against zombie pirates on crystal meth? I'd want Bear Grylls
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Posted: 12/16/2012 2:43:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/16/2012 2:49:18 PM EST by Saladman]
I am actually amazed at the statistics some people pull up from the darkest recesses of their smelly end It boggles the mind

Anyway, excellent post


All I got out of that was that I need a sturmgewehr 90.
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