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Posted: 11/30/2012 10:32:28 AM EDT
I currently have investments with Charles Schwab. The investements are managed by the Mutual Fund Store. I have called them about moving investments just in case the " fiscal cliff" foolishness causes a big drop in the stock market. I moved investments 5 years ago and as of today I am finally at the break even point, but no more more than I originally invested.
The brokers always tell you not to get out. I believe that they are only worried about their commisions. I trust them about as much as I trust Obama. Some of the money is from old 401K's and is tax deferred so I do not want to take it out and pay a huge tax.
I am not looking for " Bury it in your backyard or that kind of stuff.

Are there investments that I can move everything to that are still within Charles Schwab that are safe. I don't care if I only make 1/4 of a percent interest. I don't want to take a huge drop and take another 5 years to recover. I am 51 and want to retire before 95 years old.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 10:43:05 AM EDT
Buy real things.
Land. Durable goods. Things that will have value no matter what the currency becomes.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 10:45:14 AM EDT
Unless you have some sort of an agreement with Chas. Schwab that there is a penalty for taking your money out, you can move it any time you want. Or, you can direct whoever you deal with to do a re-allocation of the investments to another group of funds with lower risk like money markets or cash accounts. i.e tell them to sell your currents funds and "park" all the money in a cash brokerage account until the "market adjustment you're worried about has come and gone.

As for the old 401Ks you can take them out without paying any income tax as long as you do a "Direct Rollover" to another institution and establish an IRA with that institution without having any of the funds deposited into your bank account.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 10:53:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dr_Octagon:
Buy real things.
Land. Durable goods. Things that will have value no matter what the currency becomes.


what about shampoo?

Link Posted: 11/30/2012 10:57:33 AM EDT
There is a slowly growing movement to "nationalize" 401K's.

That's where I would be worried first, then Roth's and other IRA's. If that doesn't get people riled up, I don't know what will.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 10:57:52 AM EDT
Deploy a % you are comfortable with into shorting the market. 20 or 30% would do the trick, but make sure to talk to your advisor.

There are ETF's that you can buy that will give you this exposure.

SDS
SRS
FAZ

To name a few...
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 10:59:19 AM EDT
I am taking the profits on a couple of my big gainers to avoid the increase in capital gains I expect.

But if they are tax free investments, I don't think I would move them. I might take some profits and preserve those wins as cash in the accounts.

Unlike others here, I just expect the economy to go back into another mild recession like Europe is experiencing right now.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:00:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2012 11:07:22 AM EDT by woodsie]
Originally Posted By Kennyo1:
I currently have investments with Charles Schwab. The investements are managed by the Mutual Fund Store. I have called them about moving investments just in case the " fiscal cliff" foolishness causes a big drop in the stock market. I moved investments 5 years ago and as of today I am finally at the break even point, but no more more than I originally invested.
The brokers always tell you not to get out. I believe that they are only worried about their commisions. I trust them about as much as I trust Obama. Some of the money is from old 401K's and is tax deferred so I do not want to take it out and pay a huge tax.
I am not looking for " Bury it in your backyard or that kind of stuff.

Are there investments that I can move everything to that are still within Charles Schwab that are safe. I don't care if I only make 1/4 of a percent interest. I don't want to take a huge drop and take another 5 years to recover. I am 51 and want to retire before 95 years old.


I've mentioned this before, but you can "insure" against the fiscal cliff with put options. It's one way to keep your money in the market but be 100% protected against any downside. The cost of such insurance is going to be in the neighborhood of 1%-2% of your portfolio depending how you structure it.

That's how I'm protecting my portfolio. I'm willing to give up 1%-2% to ensure that my money is secure through the end of the year and I don't get stuck missing out on a big rally if the cliff is averted because there WILL be a monster rally if they strike a deal before December 31st.

ETA:

The simplest options strategy would be to buy December 31st put options on DIA (Dow Index Fund) at 130. You'd need 1 contract for every $13,000 worth of money in your portfolio that you want to protect. Each contract currently costs $227 (1.7% of $13,000).

For that 1.7%, you're portfolio would be 100% protected against loss until December 31st presuming your mix of stocks and funds roughly tracked the Dow.





Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:03:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2012 11:07:57 AM EDT by midcap]
Triple tap

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Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:04:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2012 11:08:20 AM EDT by midcap]
Double tap

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Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:04:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2012 11:08:45 AM EDT by midcap]
Quad tap

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Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:04:52 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2012 11:07:31 AM EDT by midcap]
Edit

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Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:06:52 AM EDT
Woodsie, GD shuns at you doing anything but gold, vanguard index funds and land.


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Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:09:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2012 11:10:13 AM EDT by JCatt]
SELL IT ALL AND BUY GOLD!!! lol
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:09:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By midcap:
Snip
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Dude, your mobile version is going haywire.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:10:22 AM EDT
If you're just trying to prevent loss, put it all into a money market fund. It can stay in the IRA, so no tax consequences. You won't earn much while its there, but you'll be protected against loss.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:13:20 AM EDT
I can move mine to Stable Value fund. Close as I get to secure or do some there and some in PIMCO bond.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:15:57 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rkammer:
Unless you have some sort of an agreement with Chas. Schwab that there is a penalty for taking your money out, you can move it any time you want. Or, you can direct whoever you deal with to do a re-allocation of the investments to another group of funds with lower risk like money markets or cash accounts. i.e tell them to sell your currents funds and "park" all the money in a cash brokerage account until the "market adjustment you're worried about has come and gone.

As for the old 401Ks you can take them out without paying any income tax as long as you do a "Direct Rollover" to another institution and establish an IRA with that institution without having any of the funds deposited into your bank account.


All of the money is already invested. I don't want to take anything out. I just want to park it somewhere safe. I'd rather see no gain than a huge loss.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:27:41 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Kennyo1:
Originally Posted By rkammer:
Unless you have some sort of an agreement with Chas. Schwab that there is a penalty for taking your money out, you can move it any time you want. Or, you can direct whoever you deal with to do a re-allocation of the investments to another group of funds with lower risk like money markets or cash accounts. i.e tell them to sell your currents funds and "park" all the money in a cash brokerage account until the "market adjustment you're worried about has come and gone.

As for the old 401Ks you can take them out without paying any income tax as long as you do a "Direct Rollover" to another institution and establish an IRA with that institution without having any of the funds deposited into your bank account.


All of the money is already invested. I don't want to take anything out. I just want to park it somewhere safe. I'd rather see no gain than a huge loss.


401k should have a liscensed rep to talk to.


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Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:32:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By midcap:
Originally Posted By Kennyo1:
Originally Posted By rkammer:
Unless you have some sort of an agreement with Chas. Schwab that there is a penalty for taking your money out, you can move it any time you want. Or, you can direct whoever you deal with to do a re-allocation of the investments to another group of funds with lower risk like money markets or cash accounts. i.e tell them to sell your currents funds and "park" all the money in a cash brokerage account until the "market adjustment you're worried about has come and gone.

As for the old 401Ks you can take them out without paying any income tax as long as you do a "Direct Rollover" to another institution and establish an IRA with that institution without having any of the funds deposited into your bank account.


All of the money is already invested. I don't want to take anything out. I just want to park it somewhere safe. I'd rather see no gain than a huge loss.


401k should have a liscensed rep to talk to.

My old 401K's which are the majority of my investemnts were all rolled into a Charles Schwab account which is managed by The Mutial fund Store. So far they haven't made me a penny.

My work 401K is much smaller and I selected the funds myself. It is actually doing better than what I am paying a broker for.

I am getting to the point where I don't trust any of the advisers, brokers etc. They want their commissions. You making money takes a back seat to their commissions.


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Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:36:32 AM EDT
Do you know what you are invested in right now? If so let us know. You might already be where you need to be.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:42:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2012 11:48:59 AM EDT by graysonp]
Originally Posted By Seastate:
Do you know what you are invested in right now? If so let us know. You might already be where you need to be.


This.

And historically and statistically speaking, your returns will be much greater if you ride out market crashes and dips, rather than trying to move money in and out of "safe" investments. Noone can time the market consistently and perfectly. People have a tendency to wait too long to sell and then wait too long to buy back in. The result is that you buy and sell at inopportune times. You buy when prices are climbing and sell when prices are falling. Unless you know exactly when the market is going to peak and bottom (which you don't), you're better off keeping your money where it is and buying more if the price falls (dollar cost averaging so that your average price per share is reduced).

You still have 15+ years or so until retirement. Don't get hung up on short term volatility and make emotional decisions that you'll regret. Ask yourself this: Is McDonald's going to be selling more hamburgers in 15 years than they are today? Is Exxon Mobile going to keep selling gas after the fiscal cliff and beyond? Companies will find a way to be profitable regardless of what the government does. The key is to buy and hold them for the long term, and don't panic when short term fluctuations occur.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:44:49 AM EDT
My IRA lost 5% during the week after the election but since then has gained 10%. Some companies are still going to be making money even if the fiscal cliff happens. It's just making sure you are invested in them and not the companies that will get hit by the government spending cuts.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:49:04 AM EDT
If you are nervous, then get out of equities and on a temp basis have your stash in cash. Keep it with CS. Then when or if the dust settles get back in if the risk is something you can live with.


You got to go with your gut on this . right or wrong. And of course CS is going to say don't worry. But it's your money.

And your main job is to conserve/protect it.


GD

Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:55:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GANDYDANCER:
If you are nervous, then get out of equities and on a temp basis have your stash in cash. Then when or if the dust settles get back in if the risk is something you can live with.


This is a bad idea for a few reasons:

1. You don't know what the market is anticipating already in terms of the fiscal cliff. You're not the only person who knows this is coming up and millions of people have already factored this information into there portfolio way before you even considered it. The market may have all of the information priced in, or it may not. You don't (and won't) ever know until you're looking at it in retrospect.

2. You don't know when equities will peak or when they will bottom. If you sell now, you could be selling at a significant low compared to prices in 6 months, a year, etc. And you won't know when to buy back in. People wait and wait to find the bottom and never catch it. The result is you don't buy until well after markets have bottomed and have started to recover. Markets recovered about 70% in the 3 years after the 2008 crash, and anyone who was waiting to see what happened with the recession missed those returns.

3. There are several tax implications that go with selling off stock. You create tax liabilities that could be taxed as normal income, or even significant capital gains taxes. Depending on several factors (income, your investment accounts, holding periods, etc), you may be better off letting your investments fall in value with potential to recover, rather than lose that money to taxes permanently.

4. Putting your money in cash right now is unwise. Inflation is going to devalue your cash on hand, but equities in general will keep pace with inflation. The reason is that companies will raise prices (and profits will climb) as inflation moves higher. Your cash will only lose value, but Coca-Cola will be selling $5 cokes and making a fortune.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 11:58:32 AM EDT
Tagged for GD's always reliable investment advice
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 12:02:28 PM EDT
Putting it all into gold!
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 12:09:12 PM EDT
It seems that Kennyo1 is first and for most looking for peace of mind about his money. And rightly so.


If he is sits out 3 to 6 months of holding equities it won't be the end of the world. Months .............not years.

Many people are risk adverse and rightly so. When money goes to money heaven it ain't never going to return.


Nobody knows what the market will do in the future. And if I did I sure as hell would be selling that info to the highest bidders.


GD
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 12:16:47 PM EDT
Four years ago I was on a program that got canceled, and had to relocate just to keep my job. A few months later, THAT program got canceled. I thought for sure I was toast, so I stopped contributing to my 401k because I wanted cash in the bank. After about six months I still had a job, and went back to my normal contributions - but in that time I missed out on tons of cheap stocks and mutual funds, which have largely recovered. One example, our company stock dropped under $4. All of my matching would have been in that stock, at $4, and now it's at $23. A month ago it was $28. I missed out on some big returns there.

I actually don't regret my decision, because it was driven more by my own personal situation, not fear about the market. If I had lost my job, that money in the bank was like gold to me. I just wanted to point out what you could be missing if you pull out.

I've moved to a slightly more conservative mix recently, but I still have most in mutual funds and I am still buying and will continue to buy if the market takes a dip.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 1:35:25 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GoCart-Mozart:
Deploy a % you are comfortable with into shorting the market. 20 or 30% would do the trick, but make sure to talk to your advisor.

There are ETF's that you can buy that will give you this exposure.

SDS
SRS
FAZ

To name a few...


This is my plan. But I could barely afford a big tv with my balance.

Link Posted: 11/30/2012 1:42:24 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/30/2012 1:42:42 PM EDT by Mach]
The stock market is not a bull market or a bear market it s a fantasy market.

Just my personal opinion.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 1:43:16 PM EDT
Yes. I am investing in parachutes, hang gliders, and trampolines.
Link Posted: 11/30/2012 2:00:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BustinCaps:
Yes. I am investing in parachutes, hang gliders, and trampolines.


Imitation crab meat is going to be big next year.

Link Posted: 12/1/2012 6:05:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Kennyo1:
I currently have investments with Charles Schwab. The investements are managed by the Mutual Fund Store. I have called them about moving investments just in case the " fiscal cliff" foolishness causes a big drop in the stock market. I moved investments 5 years ago and as of today I am finally at the break even point, but no more more than I originally invested.
The brokers always tell you not to get out. I believe that they are only worried about their commisions. I trust them about as much as I trust Obama. Some of the money is from old 401K's and is tax deferred so I do not want to take it out and pay a huge tax.
I am not looking for " Bury it in your backyard or that kind of stuff.

Are there investments that I can move everything to that are still within Charles Schwab that are safe. I don't care if I only make 1/4 of a percent interest. I don't want to take a huge drop and take another 5 years to recover. I am 51 and want to retire before 95 years old.

I sold about half my equities before the election -- I'm not certain what's going to happen with this financial cliff issue.
So half my portfolio is sitting in cash. I know that I won't loose that!

I don't trust these financial guys either.
Most of these "Investment Counselors" are guys with no real financexperience. The really smart guys aren't going to be talking to you and me!

If you think that gold's going up, buy a mutual fund like VGPMX.
If you think that silver's going up, buy a stock like SLW.
If you think that land's going up, buy stocks in the largest landowners in the USA: paper companies like IP and WY.
Link Posted: 12/1/2012 6:27:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/1/2012 6:28:22 PM EDT by elcope]
Originally Posted By LurchAddams:

Originally Posted By Kennyo1:
I currently have investments with Charles Schwab. The investements are managed by the Mutual Fund Store. I have called them about moving investments just in case the " fiscal cliff" foolishness causes a big drop in the stock market. I moved investments 5 years ago and as of today I am finally at the break even point, but no more more than I originally invested.
The brokers always tell you not to get out. I believe that they are only worried about their commisions. I trust them about as much as I trust Obama. Some of the money is from old 401K's and is tax deferred so I do not want to take it out and pay a huge tax.
I am not looking for " Bury it in your backyard or that kind of stuff.

Are there investments that I can move everything to that are still within Charles Schwab that are safe. I don't care if I only make 1/4 of a percent interest. I don't want to take a huge drop and take another 5 years to recover. I am 51 and want to retire before 95 years old.

I sold about half my equities before the election -- I'm not certain what's going to happen with this financial cliff issue.
So half my portfolio is sitting in cash. I know that I won't loose that!

I don't trust these financial guys either.
Most of these "Investment Counselors" are guys with no real financexperience. The really smart guys aren't going to be talking to you and me!

If you think that gold's going up, buy a mutual fund like VGPMX.
If you think that silver's going up, buy a stock like SLW.
If you think that land's going up, buy stocks in the largest landowners in the USA: paper companies like IP and WY.


Unless zeroes get added to, or knocked off current currency. i.e. re-monitization.

ETA: Or simply inflated to nothingness, as is current policy from the Fed.

Link Posted: 12/1/2012 6:30:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By elcope:
Originally Posted By LurchAddams:

Originally Posted By Kennyo1:
I currently have investments with Charles Schwab. The investements are managed by the Mutual Fund Store. I have called them about moving investments just in case the " fiscal cliff" foolishness causes a big drop in the stock market. I moved investments 5 years ago and as of today I am finally at the break even point, but no more more than I originally invested.
The brokers always tell you not to get out. I believe that they are only worried about their commisions. I trust them about as much as I trust Obama. Some of the money is from old 401K's and is tax deferred so I do not want to take it out and pay a huge tax.
I am not looking for " Bury it in your backyard or that kind of stuff.

Are there investments that I can move everything to that are still within Charles Schwab that are safe. I don't care if I only make 1/4 of a percent interest. I don't want to take a huge drop and take another 5 years to recover. I am 51 and want to retire before 95 years old.

I sold about half my equities before the election -- I'm not certain what's going to happen with this financial cliff issue.
So half my portfolio is sitting in cash. I know that I won't loose that!

I don't trust these financial guys either.
Most of these "Investment Counselors" are guys with no real financexperience. The really smart guys aren't going to be talking to you and me!

If you think that gold's going up, buy a mutual fund like VGPMX.
If you think that silver's going up, buy a stock like SLW.
If you think that land's going up, buy stocks in the largest landowners in the USA: paper companies like IP and WY.


Unless zeroes get added to, or knocked off current currency. i.e. re-monitization.

ETA: Or simply inflated to nothingness, as is current policy from the Fed.


I'm still to vulnerable there.... Utility is a factor I have considered. PMs CAN be devalued.
Link Posted: 12/1/2012 6:39:18 PM EDT
Nylons

Chocolate

K-Y

Shampoo





Link Posted: 12/1/2012 6:56:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DaveSpud:
If you're just trying to prevent loss, put it all into a money market fund. It can stay in the IRA, so no tax consequences. You won't earn much while its there, but you'll be protected against loss.


This Did it about 2 weeks ago.
Link Posted: 12/1/2012 7:11:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Keith_J:

I'm still to vulnerable there.... Utility is a factor I have considered. PMs CAN be devalued.


And that is something I still take into account. Could the US Gov't tax any gains on long term held gold at X%, hell yes, or make it illegal to possess i.e. FDR, of course.

No more than 20% of my holdings are in PM's. That being said, my average cost for 1OZ Kuggerands is appx $425oz and 1OZ Silver in various denominations at less than $20OZ. I'm glad I got in early.

Above and beyond that I have assets that are non PM's that I personally hold, (guns, foriegn currency, bonds, both US and foriegn, traditional savings and checking, land, AG), I try to spread it out amongst all across that which where I won't be wiped out in one event.

Diversity is the key to survival IMHO.

Link Posted: 12/1/2012 7:14:04 PM EDT
I moved into 75% cash and 25% stocks in December 2011 in my 401k account.

I would have been buying dividend stocks in my personal account except for this fiscal cliff business.
Link Posted: 12/1/2012 7:25:32 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
I moved into 75% cash and 25% stocks in December 2011 in my 401k account.

I would have been buying dividend stocks in my personal account except for this fiscal cliff business.


The only problem, is that I don't trust either cash or stocks (even less) to amount to more that 40% of my portfolio. The balance should be filled with something (else).
Link Posted: 12/1/2012 7:29:19 PM EDT
Rehypothecation. Look it up.

Remember the ABCD's of investing: Anything Ber-Nank Can't Destroy.
Link Posted: 12/1/2012 7:34:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/1/2012 7:35:00 PM EDT by raven]

Originally Posted By elcope:
Originally Posted By raven:
I moved into 75% cash and 25% stocks in December 2011 in my 401k account.

I would have been buying dividend stocks in my personal account except for this fiscal cliff business.


The only problem, is that I don't trust either cash or stocks (even less) to amount to more that 40% of my portfolio. The balance should be filled with something (else).
I don't have a choice between cash or stocks. The choice with stocks is capitalization size of the companies and if they are foreign are not.

Link Posted: 12/1/2012 7:40:36 PM EDT
No. If it causes a drop I'll just buy more ... at the sale price.

Link Posted: 12/1/2012 7:40:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By graysonp:

4. Putting your money in cash right now is unwise. Inflation is going to devalue your cash on hand, but equities in general will keep pace with inflation.


During the last big bout of inflation, the 1970's, the equities market didn't do well at all. Generally speaking higher real interest rates devalue equities, since that reduces the net present value of future dividends.

You can argue about whether history will repeat itself. Back in the 70's the bond vigilantes demanded progressively higher interest rates as inflation increased, and in fact demanded an interest rate premium on the fear of accelerating inflation. The high interest rates (peaking at a 20% prime rate) drove down stock PE multiples. A lot of the increase in stock prices in the 1980-2010 period was the result of lower real interest rates. Given the dearth of alternatives and a fed that wants negative real interest rates I don't know if the bond holders can demand higher rates today.

I think it's a bad idea to be on long duration bonds right now, though. They don't carry that much of a premium, and if rates go up you'll be hosed.
Link Posted: 12/1/2012 7:43:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mach:
The stock market is not a bull market or a bear market it s a fantasy market.

Just my personal opinion.


What's the fantasy?

S&P stocks are trading at right around 15 times earnings. That's a pretty reasonable valuation by any stretch of the imagination and implies a reasonable rate of return.
Link Posted: 12/1/2012 7:46:15 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:
I moved into 75% cash and 25% stocks in December 2011 in my 401k account.

I would have been buying dividend stocks in my personal account except for this fiscal cliff business.


Man.... you missed out on some BIG gains. My portfolio is up 18% since then. It has been a GREAT year to be in the market.

That said - when I hit 18%, I moved into cash until this short term thing is over.
Link Posted: 12/1/2012 7:47:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/1/2012 7:53:05 PM EDT
Looks like you folks in the U.S. are in for yet another rough ride, and we are not immune to it.
The purse tightening started here right after your Presidential election, and the frugality of spending habits here has exponentially increased.
Money markets are moving to proven resource based investments and distancing from R&D parlays that are heavily based in the U.S.

The tax bomb that is about to be dropped on your economy is going to be devastating to say the least to those who live in the blast zone.
The collateral damage will be felt world wide but will be tolerable when the big money market players move assets global and stimulate economies with a better future.

Investing in the U.S. these days may be a pipe dream for patriots, but the rest of the world is bailing.

Obama is getting his wish.



Link Posted: 12/1/2012 7:56:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By raven:

Originally Posted By elcope:
Originally Posted By raven:
I moved into 75% cash and 25% stocks in December 2011 in my 401k account.

I would have been buying dividend stocks in my personal account except for this fiscal cliff business.


The only problem, is that I don't trust either cash or stocks (even less) to amount to more that 40% of my portfolio. The balance should be filled with something (else).
I don't have a choice between cash or stocks. The choice with stocks is capitalization size of the companies and if they are foreign are not.




Of course you do, Dude.

Go to assets you can hold, (or walk on). Land, AG (i.e. Cows or other livestock), and / or foriegn currency, we're only talking a few thousand of each. IOW diversify.

Think, how do I hide this shit from the taxman?
Link Posted: 12/1/2012 7:58:35 PM EDT
Originally Posted By woodsie:
Originally Posted By Mach:
The stock market is not a bull market or a bear market it s a fantasy market.

Just my personal opinion.


What's the fantasy?

S&P stocks are trading at right around 15 times earnings. That's a pretty reasonable valuation by any stretch of the imagination and implies a reasonable rate of return.


Yeah, the Fed pumping $85 Billion of un-backed securities per month in pure, naked printing of dollars has NOTHING in propping up this false market.
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