While a young Soldier in 2AD, I was sent to "The school of the machinegun" at Fort Hood. It was two weeks in the field. We attended classes in tents, and put the lessons to test on the range. (Crittenberger) I remember walking up to my targets after a range card shoot. At first, the double EE's seemed intact. As I got closer, I saw multiple pinpricks of light shine through. I was like "Fuck Yeah"!!, those T&E exercises work!!  Later, we learned more about MG fire. We fired from defilade positions... (Firing blind, over a slope, with a spotter directing fire.) That was extremely satisfying. Granted, this was WWI stuff, but I learned a lot about machine gunnery during that time.

10 meter targets are OK for the usual/casual machinegunner, but actually engaging area type targets with awesome results will make your pecker hard.

I'm not really qualified to add anything helpful so here is some RPK74 porn from my collection

It's in near perfect shape except for the dings from the spent cases hitting the top cover and the time I had it propped up against the wall in the garage and it fell over with  left front sight ear landing on concrete causing it to bend a mm or 2. Doesnt affect sight adjustment nor is it really noticeable but it drive my OCD ass insane given the rarity of the gun.

Some Eastern Perspectives on Machinegun Employment

As I re-evaluate much of what went on in the Southeast Asian Conflict, I learn that RPD gunners were trained to restrain their fire for the most part, and were trained to carry the gun by the carrying handle most of the time, until cleared for firing, usually in an ambush or deliberate attack.  Understanding that on the other side of the world, Sun Tzu's principles drive the doctrine, organization, training, and methodology towards warfare.  Under such a system, firepower is one of your very last resorts to engaging the enemy, when you're absolutely sure that you will get the results from expending your very limited resources.  At the squad-level, this means very restrained machinegun fire.

Notice the RPD gunner pulling security for the RPG gunner in this photo:



In the defense, they had a totally different approach to trench layout and bunker complexes, similar to what the Japanese used in WWII.
Here's a diagram of a bunker commonly encountered, with hidden entrances and access to a tunnel complex:



Tunneling:



From:  http://alabamavva.org/nvavc/index.html

Here's an excellent example of developing the "terrain" to your advantage in MOUT:

Let's not lose this to the archives.

Agree!

I have the perfect range complex where to conduct a formal machine gunners course for light machine gun shooting out to 1000yds.  It's bermed and graveled well, with more steel targets than you could ever want, and some very cool ranges.

I'm running a Designated Marksmen Course there in 2 weeks.  It's going to be a lot of fun.  As I have been pouring over Army and USMC DM Concepts, TO&E, training, and systems, it's interesting how the skills that a DM needs are very similar to those of a well-trained machine gunner.  I have seen some advocates even suggest double-assigning the Javelin Gunner as a DM in the Weapon's Squad, so that he can fill either role, situation-dependent.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_9_3/232302_Feeler_for_Demand_for_Designated_Marksmen_Training_in_Utah_Rocky_Mountain_Region.html

We'll need a whole separate thread on the Art of the Designated Marksman though, another skill set that is near and dear to my heart...

I'm of the school of thought that discussions about dismounted light infantry skill sets should be holistic, so when we talk about the machine guns, we're also talking about the capabilities and limitations of the riflemen, the roles DM's fill between riflemen, SAW gunners, Medium Machine Gunners, and Snipers, as well as our indirect assets with the mortars.

As usual, the most important thing for me is a focus on training with tough, realistic drills that stress time-critical application of rounds on-target from a patrolling posture to getting into position and making high-probability 1st-round or 1st-burst hits.

Some M60E3 action:

Anti-archive bump for an excellent discussion.

Cool thread with some great pics.

Thanks to all of you posting pics and information.



 

Why is this viewed as being some new latest greatest thing?
I met a guy back in the late 90's (bought an HK21 from him) that had made some back backs for the M60 for testing for the US Navy and Coast Guard so a guy could walk to any point on the ships deck and deliver fire. I believe their was an article about them in the old Machine Gun News back in the day as well.

I had a Navy magazine back in the 1980's that had a story on SEAL's and their training.  It's the one that featured this photograph, among others:



In one of the pics, they were sitting down in what appeared to be a chow break, and you could make out a feed chute on one of the guy's ALICE Pack frames, with an M60E3 sitting next to him, so yes, it appears to have been done before.

Did that thread ever get started?

WTF, dude. You're dust cover isn't closed.




I know that's not you.

Good time to point out that a lot of machine guns have ejection port covers as well.

MG42
M240
SAW
PK/PKM/PKT
Stoner 63

Can anybody list some other machine guns that have an ejection port door?

Here's a fun video of the modern aggressive technique being applied to shoulder-firing the M60E4 I think it is:

M3 Greasegun
P90

Depending on how you define it, I suppose you could count the Remington Model 8 and AK series.

I don't have much to add other than that my machine gunners have always been the best in my battalion. In Afghanistan, my buddy got two confirmed kills on some assholes that thought it would be fun to spray us with a pkm and then jump on a their little moped and try and get away. Range, laser confirmed, 932 meters. With one burst. The Marine Corps is keeping the art of machinegunnery alive and well.




 

You know, he could have back the bipod up 3 inches and not had such a fucked up firing position.

If he hit anything at 900 meters with that position, he isn't good, he is a god.

I think we was still getting into position when I snapped that. This pic is another time, like I mentioned. The firefight where he smoked those guys, I was too busy running to cover his flanks. Didn't have time to take pictures of his position there lol.





 

900 Meters away?
Shit, you had time to kill a goat, dig a pit and have a BBQ.

Yea, in hindsight that makes a lot of sense. We didn't know if anyone else wanted to play. We were also maneuvering into position from taking contact earlier.

Thanks for sharing some modern pics of a 240 gunner in theater.  How did you guys have your gun teams organized?  Do you use an Assistant Gunner and an Ammo Bearer?  Was someone spotting for the gunner normally, and with what optics if so?

No problem. Our organization was not quite the norm because we were very undermanned. Literally, we had two machinegunners for two squads. Often, one Marine would trail close with the machine gunner to provide security and spot. In my squad we had our Designated Marksman with a Mk12 be close as well to coordinate fires and spot for him with his higher powered optic. The M240s that the Marine Corps uses are all outfitted with 6X48 acogs so that he can walk their tracers onto the target. Unfortunately for that machinegunner, he carried all his ammo, usually 6-800 rounds. On bigger operations, a few guys would carry an extra belt of 100 rounds. Our optics that we carried were usually 4X ACOGs, 10X Steiner binos and 6X M240 ACOGs.





 

In every Light Infantry or Airborne unit I was in, we had a 9-man Weapon's Squad in every Rifle Platoon.  It consisted of:

WPNS SQD LDR

M60 or M240 Gunners x 2
Assistant Machine Gunners x 2
Ammo Bearers x 2
Anti-Armor WPNS Specialist (first it was the M47A1/A2 Dragon, then Javelin)

In Korea, there weren't enough guys for a 3-man gun team at the time, so the AG was also the AB, which really sucks when you combine the combat load of the two duty positions into a 120lb rucksack.
We also had the Steiner M22 binos as Squad Equipment, one per AG and one per WPNS SQD LDR.

Operationally, the gun teams ended up being tasked out with the line squads or under the direct control of the Platoon Leader and Platoon Sergeant.  The Weapons Squad TO&E helps maintain machine gunner and gun team skill sets in peacetime or for range training, but doesn't work so well for tactics because there is an adjustment that needs to be made by whoever is controlling the squad + or platoon as an operational element.  Every unit seemed to understand the importance of placing experienced guys on the gun, and would always pay lip service to how the AG should be the most experienced, but then throw a PFC with no experience into the AG duty position.

Earlier in the thread, I talked about a more logical TO&E of a Gun Team Leader, Gunner, AB set-up I think.  It always made sense to me that along with the gun teams, a DM should be right with them filling the role you described, because of the capabilities a trained DM has.

You just made a stick in a RLI Fireforce.

The Rhodesian Light Infantry had one of the most successful approaches to dismounted tactics and operational mindset.

They applied a lot of eastern thought with deception and boldness into their operations, which allowed them to carry much lighter loads than we do in the West, but yield almost unbelievable results.  The Sealous Scouts raid into the ZANLA training base where they set up a mobile support-by-fire is a lesson in boldness not commonly seen in armed conflict.  They were given authority to act waaaay outside the box.

I haven't read this thread entirely so I may have missed it. Have y'all discussed designing a new MG yet? let me preface this by saying I'm a civilian and my knowledge of machine guns and the tactics used to employe them is very limited. However, that doesn't mean I'm not interested in them, specifically their design. In '09 I had an internship with a defense contractor in Maryland. My job was to do detail line drawings of foreign weapons for the USMCs Foreign Weapons Manual. Long story short I got to go to the precision weapons section at Quontico and take apart FALs, AKs, G3s, SVDs, etc I geeked, big time.

Well, the gun I fell in love with was the PKM, for no other reason than it's design. Now I've read that the PKM is pretty highly regarded and is a very good MG. I would like to here yalls take on it as well.

While reading this thread I started thinking about the PKM and some things I have been reading recently regarding long distance precision shooting.
What if we designed a 308 belt fed MG off of the SR-25 lower (FA of course). Think of a 308 shrike more or less, but with this new rifle would be a new load for the 308, using high BC 185 or 190gn bullets. With barrels utilizing 1:9 or faster twist, Todd hoddnet has been putting out some very interesting info on super fast twist short barreled 308s. Basically they are flatter at longer distances and more accurate because of the extra spin imparted on them, they remain more stable in the transonic zone.

Specs:
Collapsible stock
20" Heavy quick change bbl
designed from the ground up to mount optics
Design a tripod to go with it
Suppressor mount


I guess it would be more of a light MG, but either way I can't sleep now because I can't stop designing it in my head.

Yes, we have discussed new machine gun concepts briefly, but I really wanted to focus on doctrine, training, and real-world employment of machine guns in the thread.  That said, I am a huge proponent of a new class of man-portable machine guns, called the Multi-Role LMG that has a maximum weight limitation at 11lbs, with a very low profile so it can be handled much like an assault rifle, but with a trajectory that rivals 7.62 NATO, with lower ammunition weight.

The problem with 7.62 NATO and other cartridges in its class like the 7.62x54R are:

* Excessive bulk & weight for dismounted soldiers
* Excessive recoil
* Excessive wear on weapon systems because they rely on pressure to get WWI-era .30 cal projectiles fast enough to still have enough energy at extended distances

The key to making a controllable, lightweight machinegun with a long service life, but with superior external ballistics revolves around two main themes:

* Constant recoil operating principle
* High BC projectiles fired from small, high-efficiency cases

7.62 NATO is really the main problem with developing a viable lightweight LMG with a long reach.  Increasing the projectile weight increases recoil and ammunition weight, in an already unacceptable system.  The only way to make 7.62 NATO more palatable is to reduce the case weight using different alloys, but the dismounted soldier is still penalized by the bulk of the cartridge and how it orients on his gear, especially when you place the linked cartridges nose-forward in the pouches on your fighting load for quicker feeding into the gun.

I'm a big fan of the 6.5mm projectiles, because you have such high BC's for weight, and still have enough projectile mass to penetrate barrier & armor mediums at extended distances, but with way less wind drift.  A 130gr Boat Tail FMJ 6.5mm will have a BC in the mid .5's G1, or just under .3 for the more appropriate G7 drag model.  If you use a case like the 6.5 Grendel in an LMG with constant-recoil, you just made a machine gunner's dream blaster.  The RPD would be a great proof-of-concept demonstrator, with a quick-barrel change mechanism taken from the SAW.  So would the KAC/Stoner LMG.

Interesting concepts. Constant recoil, that's the same concept used in the Singapore LMG, the ultimax 100, correct? Has there ever been one chambered in 7.62? I think that would be a decent stopgap. I think that until caseless ammo or something that can give 7.62 ballistics without the weight/bulk penalty, we aren't gonna see much in the way of progress. I think the 240L is a good step in that direction. Wish my broke ass Corps would get some



 

What about the use of duplex projectiles in 7.62 for machine gun use.  Twice the density of fire in the beaten zone for no weight penalty.  Of course

 






 

How about the Israeli NEGEV NG7 LMG (Light Machine Gun) 7.62mm? Fairly light weight at 7.5 kg and from the videos I've seen fairly low felt recoil.





YouTube: Video demostration of the weapon

IWI NEGEV NG7 Weapon Specs (from Data Sheet):

Models: NEGEV NG7 LMG, NEGEV NG7 LMG SF
Caliber: 7.62x51mm
Operation: Open bolt, gas impact on piston head, rotating Bolt
Firing Modes: Safe, Semi-auto, Auto
Feeding System: Box, Assault Drum Belt Feed
Assault Drum Capacity: 100, 125 rds.
Barrel Rifling: 1:12” twist, 4 grooves
Weight (Kg): Weapon only 7.6, 7.5
Overall (OA) Length (mm)l: 1000, 912
Length with Stock folded (mm): 820, 730
Barrel Length (mm): 508, 420
Firing characteristics: Muzzle velocity (approx.) (m/sec) 860, 810
Cyclic Rate of Fire (ROF) (approx.) (rds/min): 850 – 1050 (gas reg. position 1), 950 – 1150 (gas reg. position 2)
Sight: Rear iron sight Aperture, with elevation drum for 300-1000 m (at 100-m intervals), Back up rear sight Post, built in picatinny rail
Front Iron Sight: Post type (Adj. for windage & elevation)
Sight Line Radius: 440 mm

No.
I am already at range parity with the PKM.  I don't want to EVER be outranged by my enemies' weapons.

this. as fur the Negev, not bad but get rid if the semi option, I have no use for a machine gun in semi

I want a PKM chambered for 6.5x55 Ackley Improved.

16.7 lbs empty is more than I want, but about as low as you can go with a 7.62 NATO belt-fed, and definitely preferable over 27.6 lbs for the M240.  You still have to hump linked 7.62 NATO, which is a very limiting factor.

There was a Botswanese Special Forces Captain in my Squad in Patrolling Phase of the Q-Course who really loved the Negev.  The South African SS-77 and Negev share a lot of similarities.



This is key right here.  The PKM is the weapon system that we need to be thinking about matching or exceeding with regards to:

* External ballistics capability
* Terminal Ballistics capability
* Weapon weight/profile/maneuverability/recoil (16.5 lbs/7.5kg)
* Reliability

PKM's are very light for a 7.62x54R belt-fed, and therefore are relatively easy to carry and employ.  They use a canister mounted to the gun to feed from, and are rarely employed with an AG like we would in the US, but are most effective when a trained Sharpshooter (DM) with optics accompanies them, in addition to an RPG gunner and maybe a Team Leader.  The Chechens used this 4-man team structure with murderous results against the Russians in the 1st & 2nd Chechen Wars, and there are a lot of Chechens floating around the CENTCOM AOR to pass on their experience, in addition to all the Pashtun Muj who were trained in Pakistan during the Soviet-Afghan War of 1979-1989, and have passed on those lessons to their sons and nephews.



So the question is, can we match or over-match the 7.62x54R PKM in the 4 categories listed above?  The answer is that we can over-match it in all of the categories.  Here's how:

* 6.5mm 130gr FMJBT with higher BC will fly as flat from a slower mv, and suffer from less wind deflection...OVERMATCH
* 6.5mm 130gr FMJBT sectional density beats any 7.62 ball projectile yielding increased penetration and a longer projectile for soft tissue yaw characteristics...OVERMATCH
* A small-cased 6.5mm based on the 7.62 Russian Short (6.5 Grendel) uses a much lighter, smaller receiver design, and generates less than 50% of the recoil of 7.62x54R...OVERMATCH
* Using proven long-term reliability belt-fed designs, the reliability of the PKM can be matched for MTBF, and exceeded by using constant-recoil...OVERMATCH

Additionally, the small case capacity 6.5mm with .444 case head diameter does not suffer from over-bore throat-torching issues, and therefore yields a very long barrel life, which is critical for machine guns and long-term logistics considerations of an army.

Employing a constant-recoil mechanism for the operating system would make such a weapon behave like this:

Ultimax 100 LMG

OST.

Smaller rounds are going to have an earlier tracer burnout.
also, with MGs, energy matters.  

we already have the SAW.
instead of going tweener, go big.
338 Norma magnum.  25% weight increase, 75% range increase.

The 5.56 and 7.62 have the same tracer range (or at least close), so I think there is more to the story than just size.

I'm sure the wonder of modern chemistry could get a few hundred more meters out of a tracer.

I would go with 6.5x51 AKA .260.

Better yet, a 6.5 with LSAT technology, to replace both the SAW and the M240.

Double.

I was at a machine gun shoot once where the guy with the 1919 let his 9yo daughter run the gun while he was the assistant.  She was an absolute wizard with the T&E at 250 yards, mostly tagging the little bottles of tannerite in a single 6 round burst.  You had to be fast to get to any of em before she blew em all up.  Darned target hogging kids!  

Again, with MGs, Energy matters.

This isn't a long range shooting competition.

ETA, there is no comparison between 7.62 tracer and 5.56.  5.56 is nearly invisible during the day and provides  much less illumination. 7.62 you can easily see even in bright daylight.
Its so bright, they have purple tip for night time shooting with less illum.

I can't recall ever shooting the SAW with tracers.  Given that most are under the AR LIN and not the LMG LIN, I don't see much use for tracers at all.

Now, the M240 does have some nice tracer action.

There is ALWAYS room for tracers.

Ever been on the receiving end?

Scary as all fuck.
My up mag was 100% tracer for precisely that reason.

Sylvan, I may be on a combat deployment, but the only combat I've seen was one SFC sucker punch another one.

That is fucking awesome.
1SG break it up or start collecting bets?

BDE MG punched the acting 1SG for the unit that we were replacing. The 1SG had been trying to kick him out of the motor pool as we were conducting inventories.

Remember when I got the XO job and you told me to learn supply?  I did.  So when I showed up and they had no TMs, didn't know what a CHR was, and wanted us to sign for end items (including 60 pieces of rolling stock) without inventorying BII, I was a little upset.

Anyway, the punching didn't last long.  My CDR even got in to try to break it up.  I was perfectly content to watch them kill each other with rocks, but apparently that's not the right answer either.

Our 1SG didn't say much.

Anyway, the MG was on a plane home within 48 hours, with the NCOER that he didn't want, and the guy he punched went home and retired.

So much win.
And good job holding firm on inventoring BII.