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Posted: 8/23/2012 1:53:50 PM EDT
Conical bullets from the Colt 1860 revolver produces are larger temporary cavity than does the Colt 1911 pistol. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 1:55:25 PM EDT
[#1]
Depends on if you use 10 grains of powder or 60 grains.
Never used conical bullets in my black powder revolvers. Might have to try that. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:03:38 PM EDT
[#2]
They used 30gr of blackpowder in the 1860. A Dragoon can hold 50gr, the Walker Colt can hold 60gr. You will have to use less gunpowder with longer conical bullets than with ball.
One thing about ball is that they're made of pure lead and so they really expand well. Conicals will have far greater penetration. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:04:37 PM EDT
[#3]
they knew their killing, even back then !
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:08:29 PM EDT
[#4]
The old ways are usually best.
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:08:34 PM EDT
[#5]
A. Temporary cavity is no longer as an important wounding factor.
2. Use 185 +p HP's in the 1911 and see if it still has a smaller cavity. D. Might want to bring your knowledge into the modern world and read up on the IWBA, and the Handgun wounding factors report. 3. The 1911 is still more accurate, reliable, faster to shoot, and faster to reload than the revolver. I love it when you boo boo semi automatics and try to prop up revolvers. Especially with outdated archaic information. But I guess us semi-auto shooters are just all "spray and prayers" who's modern shooting technique just wastes ammo... |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:18:34 PM EDT
[#6]
I enjoyed watching the video but the technical Information and wound theory it contains, and the implication of the thread title, is dated and no longer accepted.
For example; "knockdown power" is no longer an accepted term nor is the temporary cavity caused by handgun bullets considered an important wound mechanism. Handgun ammunition design and construction has surpassed ball. And cap and ball.
The claim made in the thread title that "a .44 caliber Colt percussion revolver has more stopping power than .45 ACP pistol" is frankly, meaningless. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:22:19 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
A. Temporary cavity is no longer as an important wounding factor. 2. Use 185 +p HP's in the 1911 and see if it still has a smaller cavity. The 1911 was designed for FMJ ammunition, it has reliability issues with HP ammunition. D. Might want to bring your knowledge into the modern world and read up on the IWBA, and the Handgun wounding factors report. 3. The 1911 is still more accurate, reliable, faster to shoot, and faster to reload than the revolver. I love it when you boo boo semi automatics and try to prop up revolvers. Especially with outdated archaic information.
But I guess us semi-auto shooters are just all "spray and prayers" who's modern shooting technique just wastes ammo... |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:27:41 PM EDT
[#8]
The percussion Colt revolver does not have the reliability, nor the firepower of modern automatics. But it is interesting that the .44 cap-n-ball revolver with 30gr of blackpowder comparies favorably to .45 ACP ball ammunition.
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:29:38 PM EDT
[#9]
Originally Posted By Sixgun_Symphony The 1911 was designed for FMJ ammunition, it has reliability issues with HP ammunition. ROFL Really? Better tell the HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people that use ammo other than FMJ in their 1911s that thier guns should not work reliably! I love your willful ignorance. You're like the Danc46 of revolvers. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:29:53 PM EDT
[#10]
Hm. So driving large chunks of soft metal at high speeds into soft squishy things puts big holes in 'em, you say? Very interesting.
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:37:31 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Quoted: A. Temporary cavity is no longer as an important wounding factor. 2. Use 185 +p HP's in the 1911 and see if it still has a smaller cavity. The 1911 was designed for FMJ ammunition, it has reliability issues with HP ammunition. D. Might want to bring your knowledge into the modern world and read up on the IWBA, and the Handgun wounding factors report. 3. The 1911 is still more accurate, reliable, faster to shoot, and faster to reload than the revolver. I love it when you boo boo semi automatics and try to prop up revolvers. Especially with outdated archaic information. But I guess us semi-auto shooters are just all "spray and prayers" who's modern shooting technique just wastes ammo... Red = Not true anymore. Colt made a small change to the barrel ramp some years ago to accommodate HP cartridges. Also, magazine lip designs were changed to handle the shorter length non-ball ammo. I own 5 1911's in 45ACP (3 Colt, 1 Sig, 1 Para) and they all feed HP ammo no problem.
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:37:49 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: The percussion Colt revolver does not have the reliability, nor the firepower of modern automatics. But it is interesting that the .44 cap-n-ball revolver with 30gr of blackpowder comparies favorably to .45 ACP ball ammunition. How does a 148 grain ball at 615 feet per second (124 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle) compare favorably to a 230 grain bullet at 800 FPS (327 ft-lbs) ? Modern .45 ACP is pushing 600 Ft-lbs, but since you like pretending time stopped at around what, 1957? We'll leave that out of the equation... |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:38:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Hm. So driving large chunks of soft metal at high speeds into soft squishy things puts big holes in 'em, you say? Very interesting. 615 FPS is NOT that high of speed. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:39:29 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
A. Temporary cavity is no longer as an important wounding factor. 2. Use 185 +p HP's in the 1911 and see if it still has a smaller cavity. The 1911 was designed for FMJ ammunition, it has reliability issues with HP ammunition. D. Might want to bring your knowledge into the modern world and read up on the IWBA, and the Handgun wounding factors report. 3. The 1911 is still more accurate, reliable, faster to shoot, and faster to reload than the revolver. I love it when you boo boo semi automatics and try to prop up revolvers. Especially with outdated archaic information.
But I guess us semi-auto shooters are just all "spray and prayers" who's modern shooting technique just wastes ammo... You are certainly living in the past. 
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:40:09 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
A. Temporary cavity is no longer as an important wounding factor. 2. Use 185 +p HP's in the 1911 and see if it still has a smaller cavity. D. Might want to bring your knowledge into the modern world and read up on the IWBA, and the Handgun wounding factors report. 3. The 1911 is still more accurate, reliable, faster to shoot, and faster to reload than the revolver. I love it when you boo boo semi automatics and try to prop up revolvers. Especially with outdated archaic information.
But I guess us semi-auto shooters are just all "spray and prayers" who's modern shooting technique just wastes ammo... Yes, but the 1860 gives you a tactical advantage of providing a smoke screen for your concealment. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:41:27 PM EDT
[#16]
Have a gun and don't miss.
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:43:17 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Quoted: The percussion Colt revolver does not have the reliability, nor the firepower of modern automatics. But it is interesting that the .44 cap-n-ball revolver with 30gr of blackpowder comparies favorably to .45 ACP ball ammunition. How does a 148 grain ball at 615 feet per second (124 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle) compare favorably to a 230 grain bullet at 800 FPS (327 ft-lbs) ? Modern .45 ACP is pushing 600 Ft-lbs, but since you like pretending time stopped at around what, 1957? We'll leave that out of the equation... Actually the Army spec for 45 ACP was 890 fps and 400 ft-lbs back in 1911. Far superior to anything the military had ever previously had. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:45:18 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hm. So driving large chunks of soft metal at high speeds into soft squishy things puts big holes in 'em, you say? Very interesting. 615 FPS is NOT that high of speed. Would YOU like to stand in front of one? ® There, we might as well dispose of that on page one. 
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:47:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Quoted: snip Actually the Army spec for 45 ACP was 890 fps and 400 ft-lbs back in 1911. Far superior to anything the military had ever previously had. I was going off the stated velocity of both rounds in the video for sake of argument. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:48:02 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hm. So driving large chunks of soft metal at high speeds into soft squishy things puts big holes in 'em, you say? Very interesting. 615 FPS is NOT that high of speed. Would YOU like to stand in front of one? ® There, we might as well dispose of that on page one. Only in a heavy rainfall, and at a distance of 100'  |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:49:17 PM EDT
[#21]
I mean, shit... if you're going to say a black powder round is comparable to more modern cartridges, at least name drop .44-40.
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Posted: 8/23/2012 2:57:57 PM EDT
[#22]
Originally Posted By Sixgun_Symphony The 1911 was designed for FMJ ammunition, it has reliability issues with HP ammunition. A 1911 has a controlled feed design, so the shape of the bullet shouldn't matter. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:00:14 PM EDT
[#23]
So what?? I'll still take the 1911 in 45 acp. Anyday.
GD |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:00:55 PM EDT
[#24]
 |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:03:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Quoted: A. Temporary cavity is no longer as an important wounding factor. 2. Use 185 +p HP's in the 1911 and see if it still has a smaller cavity. D. Might want to bring your knowledge into the modern world and read up on the IWBA, and the Handgun wounding factors report. 3. The 1911 is still more accurate, reliable, faster to shoot, and faster to reload than the revolver. I love it when you boo boo semi automatics and try to prop up revolvers. Especially with outdated archaic information. But I guess us semi-auto shooters are just all "spray and prayers" who's modern shooting technique just wastes ammo... Yes, but the 1860 gives you a tactical advantage of providing a smoke screen for your concealment. So does the 1911 if you use plenty of liquid alox to lube the lead bullets and load wtih Winchester 231. Shit's smoky. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:06:05 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
So does the 1911 if you use plenty of liquid alox to lube the lead bullets and load wtih Winchester 231. Shit's smoky.
Yeah, I made that mistake once with my supressed SMG at an indoor range. Choked 3 people off the line.
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:07:20 PM EDT
[#27]
I hate that word.. "Stopping power"
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:07:56 PM EDT
[#28]
The .45 acp round basically duplicated the .45 Colt load the Mil used at the time because that is what the Military specified after the .38 fiasco.
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:15:36 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A. Temporary cavity is no longer as an important wounding factor. 2. Use 185 +p HP's in the 1911 and see if it still has a smaller cavity. The 1911 was designed for FMJ ammunition, it has reliability issues with HP ammunition. D. Might want to bring your knowledge into the modern world and read up on the IWBA, and the Handgun wounding factors report. 3. The 1911 is still more accurate, reliable, faster to shoot, and faster to reload than the revolver. I love it when you boo boo semi automatics and try to prop up revolvers. Especially with outdated archaic information.
But I guess us semi-auto shooters are just all "spray and prayers" who's modern shooting technique just wastes ammo... Red = Not true anymore. Colt made a small change to the barrel ramp some years ago to accommodate HP cartridges. Also, magazine lip designs were changed to handle the shorter length non-ball ammo. I own 5 1911's in 45ACP (3 Colt, 1 Sig, 1 Para) and they all feed HP ammo no problem. Here, 1 Colt, 2 Sigs, 1 Kimber. No problems either. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:16:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The percussion Colt revolver does not have the reliability, nor the firepower of modern automatics. But it is interesting that the .44 cap-n-ball revolver with 30gr of blackpowder comparies favorably to .45 ACP ball ammunition. How does a 148 grain ball at 615 feet per second (124 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle) compare favorably to a 230 grain bullet at 800 FPS (327 ft-lbs) ? Modern .45 ACP is pushing 600 Ft-lbs, but since you like pretending time stopped at around what, 1957? We'll leave that out of the equation... Soft lead ball expands well. Better than hardball. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:23:07 PM EDT
[#31]
With pure lead, you better not get much over the 615 fps, or you are liable to get pretty bad leading in your barrel.
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:28:04 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The percussion Colt revolver does not have the reliability, nor the firepower of modern automatics. But it is interesting that the .44 cap-n-ball revolver with 30gr of blackpowder comparies favorably to .45 ACP ball ammunition. How does a 148 grain ball at 615 feet per second (124 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle) compare favorably to a 230 grain bullet at 800 FPS (327 ft-lbs) ? Modern .45 ACP is pushing 600 Ft-lbs, but since you like pretending time stopped at around what, 1957? We'll leave that out of the equation... Actually the Army spec for 45 ACP was 890 fps and 400 ft-lbs back in 1911. Far superior to anything the military had ever previously had. Negative on that. The 1873 and 1909 service revolvers both chamberedd in .45 Colt used slightly heavier bullets at equal or better velocities. The .44 caliber Walker Colt, .44 Caliber Dragoons could get more velocity with ball, they could also use heavier conical bullets, but with reduced velocity. The 1860 Colt .44 percussion revolver was shown to do more damage in the video than the 1911 with .45 ACP hardball. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:31:59 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
I mean, shit... if you're going to say a black powder round is comparable to more modern cartridges, at least name drop .44-40. That is the chambering of my Colt Sheriff's Model that I use for CCW on most days. I use cast bullets from Lyman #427666 mold, sized .427 and lubed with Lyman "Black Powder Gold", over 35gr of Pyrodex P in Winchester brass with CCI large pistol primers. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:33:20 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
With pure lead, you better not get much over the 615 fps, or you are liable to get pretty bad leading in your barrel. I have had 900 FPS velocites with ball from my Dragoon. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:41:13 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The percussion Colt revolver does not have the reliability, nor the firepower of modern automatics. But it is interesting that the .44 cap-n-ball revolver with 30gr of blackpowder comparies favorably to .45 ACP ball ammunition. How does a 148 grain ball at 615 feet per second (124 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle) compare favorably to a 230 grain bullet at 800 FPS (327 ft-lbs) ? Modern .45 ACP is pushing 600 Ft-lbs, but since you like pretending time stopped at around what, 1957? We'll leave that out of the equation... Soft lead ball expands well. Better than hardball. Uh oh... where's your argument disappearing... |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:42:11 PM EDT
[#36]
With the advent of soft body armor, round-nosed pistol ctgs are obsolete.
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Posted: 8/23/2012 3:48:22 PM EDT
[#37]
All I am hearing is a poor attempt at turning nostalgia into fact.
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Posted: 8/23/2012 4:03:50 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
All I am hearing is a poor attempt at turning nostalgia into fact. Look at the video. the .44 caliber ball produced a larger temporary cavity than the .45 ACP hardball round. Now the 1911 does have more firepower due to quick reloads and it is far more reliable than any percussion gun. I am not saying that anyone should trade in their modern handguns for a cap-n-ball revolver, but it is interesting to see that the percussion .44 hits as hard or harder than the vaunted .45 ACP round. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 4:04:28 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: Quoted: I mean, shit... if you're going to say a black powder round is comparable to more modern cartridges, at least name drop .44-40. That is the chambering of my Colt Sheriff's Model that I use for CCW on most days. I use cast bullets from Lyman #427666 mold, sized .427 and lubed with Lyman "Black Powder Gold", over 35gr of Pyrodex P in Winchester brass with CCI large pistol primers. So it would take you 4.5 Colt Sheriff models to equal one Glock 27 with two spare magazines. Hope you never have to stop more than a bad guy or two.  |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 4:10:27 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: Quoted: With pure lead, you better not get much over the 615 fps, or you are liable to get pretty bad leading in your barrel. I have had 900 FPS velocites with ball from my Dragoon. Are you going to stick to what was talked about in the video which proves your "point" otherwise I'll start posting up modern ballistic testing which will blow your assumptions out of the water.... |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 4:12:31 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I mean, shit... if you're going to say a black powder round is comparable to more modern cartridges, at least name drop .44-40. That is the chambering of my Colt Sheriff's Model that I use for CCW on most days. I use cast bullets from Lyman #427666 mold, sized .427 and lubed with Lyman "Black Powder Gold", over 35gr of Pyrodex P in Winchester brass with CCI large pistol primers. So it would take you 4.5 Colt Sheriff models to equal one Glock 27 with two spare magazines. Hope you never have to stop more than a bad guy or two.
That gives you forty five shots. If you shoot that many guys then your gunfight will make world news. People will talk about it a hundred years from now. Seriously though, I think you need an M-249 SAW and some hand grenades for any reasonable chance of winning that fight. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 4:13:06 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: So you're going to base you're entire hypothesis on ONE video showing a gel test, that is about 40 years older than modern scientific gel testing? Quoted: All I am hearing is a poor attempt at turning nostalgia into fact. Look at the video. the .44 caliber ball produced a larger temporary cavity than the .45 ACP hardball round. Now the 1911 does have more firepower due to quick reloads and it is far more reliable than any percussion gun. I am not saying that anyone should trade in their modern handguns for a cap-n-ball revolver, but it is interesting to see that the percussion .44 hits as hard or harder than the vaunted .45 ACP round. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 4:18:06 PM EDT
[#43]
The .44 caliber percussion Colts have a fine track record for killing men. The only problem is with reliability and very slow reloading, which is why they were replaced with the cartridge revolvers in 1873.
I can also get better than 615 FPS velocity in my reproduction Colt Dragoon. I am thinking they must have used FFG blackpowder rather than the finer grade FFFG in that test. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 4:25:02 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Or, you know, 27 (3x9=27) 27/6=4.5 . Thinking that having 45 shots (well, 27) means you can kill 45 (27) guys you're living in more of a fantasy world than I thought.Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I mean, shit... if you're going to say a black powder round is comparable to more modern cartridges, at least name drop .44-40. That is the chambering of my Colt Sheriff's Model that I use for CCW on most days. I use cast bullets from Lyman #427666 mold, sized .427 and lubed with Lyman "Black Powder Gold", over 35gr of Pyrodex P in Winchester brass with CCI large pistol primers. So it would take you 4.5 Colt Sheriff models to equal one Glock 27 with two spare magazines. Hope you never have to stop more than a bad guy or two. That gives you forty five shots. If you shoot that many guys then your gunfight will make world news. People will talk about it a hundred years from now. Seriously, I think you need an M-249 SAW for any reasonable chance of winning that fight. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 4:27:15 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The percussion Colt revolver does not have the reliability, nor the firepower of modern automatics. But it is interesting that the .44 cap-n-ball revolver with 30gr of blackpowder comparies favorably to .45 ACP ball ammunition. How does a 148 grain ball at 615 feet per second (124 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle) compare favorably to a 230 grain bullet at 800 FPS (327 ft-lbs) ? Modern .45 ACP is pushing 600 Ft-lbs, but since you like pretending time stopped at around what, 1957? We'll leave that out of the equation... Just for comparison, my Keltec P32 with 73gr ball is pushing about 135 ft lb and that's the gun I carry when nothing else is small enough for how I'm dressed. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 4:29:27 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: The .44 caliber percussion Colts have a fine track record for killing men. The only problem is with reliability and very slow reloading, which is why they were replaced with the cartridge revolvers in 1873. I can also get better than 615 FPS velocity in my reproduction Colt Dragoon. I am thinking they must have used FFG blackpowder rather than the finer grade FFFG in that test. And people can get better velocity in .45 ACP than what is shown in the video as well. In bullets that are SPACE AGE compared to cap and ball. Your argument falls apart under scrutiny. The only people that will believe you and your video are people living under rocks. IMHO it's a disservice to spread opinions like yours as fact, and back them by outdated "proof". Then again, if people believe your original post, and take it at face value as truth without learning anything more to discover it's straight up teetotal bullshit, then they get what they deserve. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 4:31:17 PM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: They used 30gr of blackpowder in the 1860. A Dragoon can hold 50gr, the Walker Colt can hold 60gr. You will have to use less gunpowder with longer conical bullets than with ball. One thing about ball is that they're made of pure lead and so they really expand well. Conicals will have far greater penetration. How does 60gr of power compare to 70gr? |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 4:31:31 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The percussion Colt revolver does not have the reliability, nor the firepower of modern automatics. But it is interesting that the .44 cap-n-ball revolver with 30gr of blackpowder comparies favorably to .45 ACP ball ammunition. How does a 148 grain ball at 615 feet per second (124 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle) compare favorably to a 230 grain bullet at 800 FPS (327 ft-lbs) ? Modern .45 ACP is pushing 600 Ft-lbs, but since you like pretending time stopped at around what, 1957? We'll leave that out of the equation... Just for comparison, my Keltec P32 with 73gr ball is pushing about 135 ft lb and that's the gun I carry when nothing else is small enough for how I'm dressed. 6.6 oz vs 43 oz of weight. About equal reliability. |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 4:34:00 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Or, you know, 27 (3x9=27) 27/6=4.5 . Thinking that having 45 shots (well, 27) means you can kill 45 (27) guys you're living in more of a fantasy world than I thought.
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I mean, shit... if you're going to say a black powder round is comparable to more modern cartridges, at least name drop .44-40. That is the chambering of my Colt Sheriff's Model that I use for CCW on most days. I use cast bullets from Lyman #427666 mold, sized .427 and lubed with Lyman "Black Powder Gold", over 35gr of Pyrodex P in Winchester brass with CCI large pistol primers. So it would take you 4.5 Colt Sheriff models to equal one Glock 27 with two spare magazines. Hope you never have to stop more than a bad guy or two.
That gives you forty five shots. If you shoot that many guys then your gunfight will make world news. People will talk about it a hundred years from now. Seriously, I think you need an M-249 SAW for any reasonable chance of winning that fight. You sure do miss the sarcasm. I was thinking that you had a magazine capacity of 15 shots, typical for the wondernines. Still my point is that if you really need that many rounds, then your gunfight will make headlines. BTW, if you think it unrealistic to require that many shots (as I do) then why do you insist on carrying three magazines? |
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Posted: 8/23/2012 4:37:01 PM EDT
[#50]
OP, the .44 was a devastating cal. / round that caused many a horrific wound and amputation during the Civil War and probably caused more carnage than the .45 ACP would have. No amount of modern day 'expertise' can diminish that.
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