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Grin
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Posted: 7/30/2012 6:51:55 PM
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 6:54:21 PM by Grin]
Originally Posted By Shung:
Originally Posted By mcantu:

Originally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet:
pfft!!! What does that matter? F-22 isn't going to let you get in close enough for a gun fight. He's going to take you out well before he's in your visual range or visible on your radar.

as soon as the F-22 turns on its radar to target its AMRAAMs, it becomes visible for the whole world to see.


Well.. Maybe the F-22 that is at your 2 o,clock at 60nm.....

But what about that other f-22 at 30nm at your 11 o'clock and who giving you the fox 3 on his wingman data linked target ?

You are fucked...


That's not even mentioning the targets that could be provided by that E-3 200nm away...


Doesn't the F-22 have a ridiculously powerful and uber advanced radar with a massively wide, nearly instantaneous sweep? Pretty sure it'd be less than a couple seconds for the F-22 to ID, lock, and fire on its own without any other input.

But, two F-22s with 6 AMRAAM-Cs each and linked targeting can do some major quick damage against 12 targets at the same time.

ETA: What about the AIM-9X helmet mount targeting system? Was it a gun kill the Typhoon got?
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Posted: 7/30/2012 6:52:08 PM
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 6:55:57 PM by Alien]
While the F-22 is a very capable fighter, and I admit to not being a huge fan of it, It is not designed primarily with dogfighting in mind. It is designed to eliminate its enemies from invisibility beyond visual range. I'm betting that if we weren't so concerned about stealth when R&Ding our latest gen fighters, they could have been much more capable in the agility department.

Being able to win in a knife fight won't matter when you are shot from afar with a long range rifle.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 6:53:01 PM
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:
Originally Posted By SlowOne:

Originally Posted By nick89302:
Not to downplay the accomplishment, but won't the Eurofighter need to find the f22 first?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Yep. Tactic mentioned is common sense. Any bets on how fast we develop a counter-strategy?


I am pretty sure these mock dogfights start at a common rendezvous point. That's not how a real shooting war works.



So why the fancy schmancy school at Miramar?

Dogfights occur - history should tell you that, mate.

Even in modern conflicts.

LOL, not for the magical F-22.

It's been regulated to air show and college football game fly-by duty ever since it's been introduced.


What conflict have we been involved in since it's introduction we've had a need for it? You could say the same thing about F15Cs since Desert Storm........
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Posted: 7/30/2012 6:54:31 PM
Never mind the F22, I was under the impression that no other countries fighter could'nt even touch todays F15
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Posted: 7/30/2012 6:54:39 PM
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targettarget
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Posted: 7/30/2012 6:54:59 PM

Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By Grin:
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:
Originally Posted By SlowOne:

Originally Posted By nick89302:
Not to downplay the accomplishment, but won't the Eurofighter need to find the f22 first?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Yep. Tactic mentioned is common sense. Any bets on how fast we develop a counter-strategy?


I am pretty sure these mock dogfights start at a common rendezvous point. That's not how a real shooting war works.



So why the fancy schmancy school at Miramar?

Dogfights occur - history should tell you that, mate.

Even in modern conflicts.

LOL, not for the magical F-22.

It's been regulated to air show and college football game fly-by duty ever since it's been introduced.


Why do you have to take every single motherfucking opportunity to bash anything American?



He bashes everyone in equal measure. TargetTarget is an equal opportunities basher

This.

Holy fuck.

If someone said to me: "Hey, your military kind of sucks", I wouldn't take that as: "Hey, the people in your military suck", but rather: "it sucks that your government doesn't take the seriously and under-funds it".

That's not bashing, that's fact. The only difference being that I don't take offense to factual things that are said.

Canada bought ~80 F-35's. Does that mean that I have some patriot duty to not make fun of the F-35, just because that's the fighter my country choose to buy? Fuck no. It's a shitty plane and was a shitty decision on our part, and I'll take whatever opportunity I can to point that out.

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Posted: 7/30/2012 6:55:26 PM
Originally Posted By Super_Duty_John:
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By SilentType:
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By UT-ARShooter:
The Eurofighter has canards and a delta wing. It should be very maneuverable, but those canards and all the hardpoints on that aircraft also make it show up more on radar. Good luck to the Eurofighter finding the F-22.


The F22 is supposed to be an aggressive interceptor - hardly fits the bill if it has to spend it's time hiding from the Eurofighter


Just because you guys are deaf, dumb, and blind in a fight doesn't mean we're hiding.

Hey, if any nation with Eurofighters ever wants to go to war with us I'm not too worried about how quickly we'll stomp the crap out of them.


Hey, Captain America.....Why don't you go and stand on a stage somewhere and beat your chest in a manly fashion before giving us an eyeful your shiny red, white and blue arse? Only I'm not quite sure that your blind raging patriotism is coming through strong enough

Even if we were deaf, dumb and blind your F22 still got it's ass handed to it. And while I stand to be corrected, my understanding is that as soon as the F22 decides to switch on it's targeting and guidance system, it stands out like tits on a table.

Besides, this isn't about us going to war with one another.... It's about testing capabilities, finding weaknesses and ensuring we plug those gaps in our capabilities as allies.


Ouch...tell us how you really feel AF, this is usually kind of out of character for you....no?


Nah mate. It s a thread about allied aircraft working together to build a better fighting force in my eyes. Most people can see that. Unfortunately silent type decided to start tub-thumping so I just thought I'd throw a gentle ribbing his way.

If you think that's bad you should see us Brits when we really get started.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 6:56:33 PM
Originally Posted By Grin:
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:
Originally Posted By SlowOne:

Originally Posted By nick89302:
Not to downplay the accomplishment, but won't the Eurofighter need to find the f22 first?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Yep. Tactic mentioned is common sense. Any bets on how fast we develop a counter-strategy?


I am pretty sure these mock dogfights start at a common rendezvous point. That's not how a real shooting war works.



So why the fancy schmancy school at Miramar?

Dogfights occur - history should tell you that, mate.

Even in modern conflicts.

LOL, not for the magical F-22.

It's been regulated to air show and college football game fly-by duty ever since it's been introduced.


Why do you have to take every single motherfucking opportunity to bash anything American?



O Canada... Wasn't the commander of their largest AF base a serial killer?
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Posted: 7/30/2012 6:57:02 PM
Had the 22 pilot been trying it would have been game over.

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Posted: 7/30/2012 6:57:16 PM

Originally Posted By Grin:

I know. Fuck me, for showing mercy. I need to stop being such a nice guy. I'm in a foul mood tonight and the last thing I wanted to see was a Canadian bashing America on grounds he has -2000% merit to bash on.

Canada uses a variation of the M16, F/A-18, M4, and several other US designs of aircraft and small arms. Why isn't he bashing his own country's shit?

Because this thread isn't about what Canada uses, you Nancy.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 6:57:32 PM
Originally Posted By RVwannaB:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Square me away.
I see no reason for this WVR non sense other than when playing against little countries with 50 year old air planes.
IN a real war reckon folks flying are ones looking for trouble. 100 NM missiles and never see them.
As for this, this play time takes time to train. F22 pilots hardly get any hours because the planes are so fucking expensive to fly and they have been severely restricted in what they can fly.
More hours, better pilots. but neutering the capabilities to make it fun errr, better training, doesn't indict the air craft, just the people in charge of it.


The Nav actually has a point. BFM is a very integral skill set that is very important to maintain. Missiles don't always work, and ROE doesn't always allow BVR shots. You may be forced to go in and visually ID the aircraft. Trust me BFM, is not a d*ck measuring contests, it's a valuable skill.


Lets take your two points.
1. Missiles don't always work. OK, all of them? Do you neuter your plane's qualitative advantage or do you run away another day when they do work? What is the failure point? what are the odds of failure? Is a volley of 10 AMRAAMs worth it for 2 Bandits that may then have an advantage or at least a chance at shooting down one of our 186 F22s? How often do missiles fail? I honestly don't know. And what is so critical of that particular threat to risk your F22.
2. ROE. Got it. But real war means big boy rules. Red Free. The whole point of the ATO is orchestrating the air space. If you have something flying where it ain't supposed to be, blow it the fuck up. Now, ROE in limited conflicts. Do we need F22s doing that? We have plenty of aircraft that can handle MIG 23s out there. Should we develop a cheap dedicated A2A for these kleine krieges that can be flown more than 8 hours a month?
F22 is replacing everything right now. Burning what few hours they can trying to juggle interdiction, deep strike and A2A all on a handful of hours per month? Should we put a plane like that into a role where all its advantages are nullifiied? And with F35 having single axis stealth, it won't alleviate the F22 from any of those duties (maybe interdiction)
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Posted: 7/30/2012 6:57:53 PM
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By Grin:
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By Rick-OShay:
Originally Posted By SlowOne:

Originally Posted By nick89302:
Not to downplay the accomplishment, but won't the Eurofighter need to find the f22 first?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Yep. Tactic mentioned is common sense. Any bets on how fast we develop a counter-strategy?


I am pretty sure these mock dogfights start at a common rendezvous point. That's not how a real shooting war works.



So why the fancy schmancy school at Miramar?

Dogfights occur - history should tell you that, mate.

Even in modern conflicts.

LOL, not for the magical F-22.

It's been regulated to air show and college football game fly-by duty ever since it's been introduced.


Why do you have to take every single motherfucking opportunity to bash anything American?



He bashes everyone in equal measure. TargetTarget is an equal opportunities basher

This.

Holy fuck.

If someone said to me: "Hey, your military kind of sucks", I wouldn't take that as: "Hey, the people in your military suck", but rather: "it sucks that your government doesn't take the seriously and under-funds it".

That's not bashing, that's fact. The only difference being that I don't take offense to factual things that are said.

Canada bought ~80 F-35's. Does that mean that I have some patriot duty to not make fun of the F-35, just because that's the fighter my country choose to buy? Fuck no. It's a shitty plane and was a shitty decision on our part, and I'll take whatever opportunity I can to point that out.



To be fair, the F-35 has ALWAYS been a shitty piece of shit.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:01:31 PM
Originally Posted By UT-ARShooter:
Originally Posted By nick1983:
A certain persona non grata here was saying how the RAF pilots who went to Nellis were saying they "couldn't do anything against the F22, UNLESS thery wanted to come down and play with us".

So unbunch the panties guys, nothing can touch the F22 unless the pilot wants it too.


So out of curiosity, where does the F-35 stand against the Eurofighters and Rapters? Have they gone up against them yet or is it too soon?



The F-35 is in development, despite news releases about production airplanes coming to the ramp. They'll be ready to fight in 2025 or thereabouts.

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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:01:32 PM
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By skin290:
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/07/f-22-germans/

$361 million F-22 can not out-dogfight a €90 million Eurofighter.

The fast, stealthy F-22 Raptor is “unquestionably” the best air-to-air fighter in the arsenal of the world’s leading air force. That’s what outgoing Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz wrote in 2009.

Three years later, a contingent of German pilots flying their latest Typhoon fighter have figured out how to shoot down the Lockheed Martin-made F-22 in mock combat. The Germans’ tactics, revealed in the latest Combat Aircraft magazine, represent the latest reality check for the $400-million-a-copy F-22, following dozens of pilot blackouts, and possibly a crash, reportedly related to problems with the unique g-force-defying vests worn by Raptor pilots.

In mid-June, 150 German airmen and eight twin-engine, non-stealthy Typhoons arrived at Eielson Air Force Base in Alaska for an American-led Red Flag exercise involving more than 100 aircraft from Germany, the U.S. Air Force and Army, NATO, Japan, Australia and Poland. Eight times during the two-week war game, individual German Typhoons flew against single F-22s in basic fighter maneuvers meant to simulate a close-range dogfight.

The results were a surprise to the Germans and presumably the Americans, too. “We were evenly matched,” Maj. Marc Gruene told Combat Aircraft’s Jamie Hunter. The key, Gruene said, is to get as close as possible to the F-22 … and stay there. “They didn’t expect us to turn so aggressively.”



Look on the bright side...... between us we have everyone licked.


"US"? I bet the Germans laugh at a Brit saying that, no? Would be like Canadia saying "US" when talking about an American accomplishment, eh?


We have Typhoons and the last time I checked we were allies, yes?

And if the Germans can do it, then think what the Brits can do. We have a 2:0 win record against the Germans, as demonstrated by the vast quantity of Luftwaffe wreckage at the bottom of the English Channel.



If we (US) ever end fighting a war with any of the Eurofighter countries, things will have really gone to fuck......

So it's pretty much a non issue. Good to know that these war games are taking place to let us and our allies evaluate our equipment against other nations...
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:02:51 PM
Originally Posted By Bunn19:
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By skin290:
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/07/f-22-germans/

$361 million F-22 can not out-dogfight a €90 million Eurofighter.

The fast, stealthy F-22 Raptor is “unquestionably” the best air-to-air fighter in the arsenal of the world’s leading air force. That’s what outgoing Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Norton Schwartz wrote in 2009.

Three years later, a contingent of German pilots flying their latest Typhoon fighter have figured out how to shoot down the Lockheed Martin-made F-22 in mock combat. The Germans’ tactics, revealed in the latest Combat Aircraft magazine, represent the latest reality check for the $400-million-a-copy F-22, following dozens of pilot blackouts, and possibly a crash, reportedly related to problems with the unique g-force-defying vests worn by Raptor pilots.

In mid-June, 150 German airmen and eight twin-engine, non-stealthy Typhoons arrived at Eielson Air Force Base in Alaska for an American-led Red Flag exercise involving more than 100 aircraft from Germany, the U.S. Air Force and Army, NATO, Japan, Australia and Poland. Eight times during the two-week war game, individual German Typhoons flew against single F-22s in basic fighter maneuvers meant to simulate a close-range dogfight.

The results were a surprise to the Germans and presumably the Americans, too. “We were evenly matched,” Maj. Marc Gruene told Combat Aircraft’s Jamie Hunter. The key, Gruene said, is to get as close as possible to the F-22 … and stay there. “They didn’t expect us to turn so aggressively.”



Look on the bright side...... between us we have everyone licked.


"US"? I bet the Germans laugh at a Brit saying that, no? Would be like Canadia saying "US" when talking about an American accomplishment, eh?


We have Typhoons and the last time I checked we were allies, yes?

And if the Germans can do it, then think what the Brits can do. We have a 2:0 win record against the Germans, as demonstrated by the vast quantity of Luftwaffe wreckage at the bottom of the English Channel.



If we (US) ever end fighting a war with any of the Eurofighter countries, things will have really gone to fuck......

So it's pretty much a non issue. Good to know that these war games are taking place to let us and our allies evaluate our equipment against other nations...


That's exactly the way I see it.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:05:00 PM

Originally Posted By Grin:

To be fair, the F-35 has ALWAYS been a shitty piece of shit.

Great.

So we agree.

It's the same as me posting pictures of my SKS's on here. Some people like them, most don't, and I give zero fucks about what anyone things.

Are they abominations of what an original SKS is supposed to be? Fucking rights they are; that doesn't mean that I get all jacked up and offended when someone tells me the truth.


Grin
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:07:52 PM
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By Grin:

To be fair, the F-35 has ALWAYS been a shitty piece of shit.

Great.

So we agree.

It's the same as me posting pictures of my SKS's on here. Some people like them, most don't, and I give zero fucks about what anyone things.

Are they abominations of what an original SKS is supposed to be? Fucking rights they are; that doesn't mean that I get all jacked up and offended when someone tells me the truth.




The stock tube thingy was still out of spec.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:11:04 PM
Originally Posted By Grin:
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By Grin:

To be fair, the F-35 has ALWAYS been a shitty piece of shit.

Great.

So we agree.

It's the same as me posting pictures of my SKS's on here. Some people like them, most don't, and I give zero fucks about what anyone things.

Are they abominations of what an original SKS is supposed to be? Fucking rights they are; that doesn't mean that I get all jacked up and offended when someone tells me the truth.




The stock tube thingy was still out of spec.



Can you two please take it elsewhere?
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mnvwguy02
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:11:41 PM
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 7:22:38 PM by mnvwguy02]
Assuming the F-22 met its design requirements, it would seem those requirements meant the F-22 would need only parity in dogfighing ability with the current crop of fighters from other nations rather than superiority. Meanwhile, the F-22 is superior in other roles.

Being the best, doesn't mean it is the best at everything. The F-22 has a broader overall performance envelope that its peers. At todays technology pace, that lead may be very short lived.
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Grin
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:11:52 PM
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By Grin:
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By Grin:

To be fair, the F-35 has ALWAYS been a shitty piece of shit.

Great.

So we agree.

It's the same as me posting pictures of my SKS's on here. Some people like them, most don't, and I give zero fucks about what anyone things.

Are they abominations of what an original SKS is supposed to be? Fucking rights they are; that doesn't mean that I get all jacked up and offended when someone tells me the truth.




The stock tube thingy was still out of spec.



Can you two please take it elsewhere?


Says Great Britain
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:11:53 PM
Let's put this another way for our Brit and Euro friends. Step back in time for a moment, to say October 25th, 1415, because really, that is what we have if we were to engage in real combat.

You guys have some of the best warriors available, and evenly matched in hand to hand, or.even better than ours.

This time however, with the F22, we have the ability to deploy a longbow. Most of your fighters, as good as they are, would be taken out long before they could take advantage of our weakness, and at the point they were able to, our numeric advantage would lead to a slaughter. You wouldn't have the numbers to engage us effectively once in close battle. Our longbowmen become knight just as capable as yours, and we still have more knights in our second battle line, the F15s.

Battle of Agincourt, part II.

( I am fully aware the battle was much more complex than this. Still a good analogy, as least for me.)

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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:16:53 PM

Originally Posted By Grin:
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By Grin:
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By Grin:

To be fair, the F-35 has ALWAYS been a shitty piece of shit.

Great.

So we agree.

It's the same as me posting pictures of my SKS's on here. Some people like them, most don't, and I give zero fucks about what anyone things.

Are they abominations of what an original SKS is supposed to be? Fucking rights they are; that doesn't mean that I get all jacked up and offended when someone tells me the truth.




The stock tube thingy was still out of spec.



Can you two please take it elsewhere?


Says Great Britain

Yeah. Mind your business, GB.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:18:30 PM
So basically if someone develops a highly maneuverable stealth fighter , the advantages the Raptor enjoys now will be negated?
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:19:04 PM
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By Grin:

To be fair, the F-35 has ALWAYS been a shitty piece of shit.

Great.

So we agree.

It's the same as me posting pictures of my SKS's on here. Some people like them, most don't, and I give zero fucks about what anyone things.

Are they abominations of what an original SKS is supposed to be? Fucking rights they are; that doesn't mean that I get all jacked up and offended when someone tells me the truth.




Oh yes you do; it's why you throw a tantrum, and then storm off almost annually here, only to tuck tail and return a few weeks later.

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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:19:22 PM
Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By Grin:

I know. Fuck me, for showing mercy. I need to stop being such a nice guy. I'm in a foul mood tonight and the last thing I wanted to see was a Canadian bashing America on grounds he has -2000% merit to bash on.

Canada uses a variation of the M16, F/A-18, M4, and several other US designs of aircraft and small arms. Why isn't he bashing his own country's shit?

Because this thread isn't about what Canada uses, you Nancy.


That's because we already have enough threads about US military equipment. We don't need those same threads about equipment that has been rebranded with a maple leaf.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:20:37 PM
Originally Posted By Bradders:
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By nick89302:
Not to downplay the accomplishment, but won't the Eurofighter need to find the f22 first?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


Yep.

They seem to have been able to do so during the tests from what I understand, at least for some of the exercises.

To be honest the Raptor and Eurofighter between them make a dream team in terms of aerial combat in my eyes, but I am no expert in these matters. Add the A10 and Tornado in ground attack and low level smash-em-ups and and you have the perfect storm.


It's not the first time Eurofighter has pwn3d the F22....

As an aside to what you are saying, Tornado GR3 has now been scrapped (according to someone both you and I know who services them and today was his last day) but believe it or not, the Americans are paying to keep two flying in Afghanistan because it's reconnoissance capabilities are unequalled and its PGM capabilities are still to be bettered


Yeah they were kept on for their recon capabilities, not to patronise because there is no way a country with more recon assets than your whole airforce could handle it.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:20:41 PM
A pilot with no experience fighting a F22 will be long dead before he even gets close. It's sorta like saying "Hey all I have to do is rip this 300lb pro MMA fighters achelles tendon out and I can kick his ass" Sure it may work, if you can get to it. Good luck getting into visual range of a F22 as long as it has missles.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:20:44 PM
Originally Posted By ASUsax:
Meh. Yeah, in visual range, they're pretty evenly matched.

Good luck to the Typhoon in getting to Visual range.

The F-22 is better at almost everything... in visual range... it's merely equal.


The pilot would have to be sleeping at the stick for the Typhoon to get that close.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:21:49 PM
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 7:22:38 PM by SilentType]
The Eurofighter is worthless in an age with systems like the S-400.

It cannot operate inside any airspace under cover of an affordable integrated air defense network without significant risk. Unless you think the European people are suddenly willing to face significant risk to their pilots then the Eurofighter is useless at power projection.

Despite what the British or Europeans here have to say about AN/APG-77 Radar it doesn't stand out like "tits on a bar" when in use. That's the whole idea and effort behind AESA radar. In passive mode there is no way the Eurofighter pilot would ever know it was there until he was already on his way to hell.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:23:11 PM
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 7:25:17 PM by RVwannaB]
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Lets take your two points.
1. Missiles don't always work. OK, all of them? Do you neuter your plane's qualitative advantage or do you run away another day when they do work? What is the failure point? what are the odds of failure? Is a volley of 10 AMRAAMs worth it for 2 Bandits that may then have an advantage or at least a chance at shooting down one of our 186 F22s? How often do missiles fail? I honestly don't know. And what is so critical of that particular threat to risk your F22.


You bring up some great questions. OPSEC takes over. Is a particular plane worth it? Depends on what you are defending? Someone much higher than my pay grade gets to make that decision.

Originally Posted By Sylvan:2. ROE. Got it. But real war means big boy rules. Red Free. The whole point of the ATO is orchestrating the air space. If you have something flying where it ain't supposed to be, blow it the fuck up. Now, ROE in limited conflicts. Do we need F22s doing that? We have plenty of aircraft that can handle MIG 23s out there. Should we develop a cheap dedicated A2A for these kleine krieges that can be flown more than 8 hours a month?


Depends! I sure hope it's a very liberal ROE, but like with anything else in life, you train for the worst and hope for the best.

Originally Posted By Sylvan:F22 is replacing everything right now.


Not really. It's manly replacing the Light Greys. <––––Edit...light greys = F-15C

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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:23:45 PM
Originally Posted By wilNva:
A pilot with no experience fighting a F22 will be long dead before he even gets close. It's sorta like saying "Hey all I have to do is rip this 300lb pro MMA fighters achelles tendon out and I can kick his ass" Sure it may work, if you can get to it. Good luck getting into visual range of a F22 as long as it has missles.


Even once they get into visual range the planes are still closely matched and it would come down to pilot skill. It's not like the Eurofighter has some incredible edge in a dog fight.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:27:39 PM
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 7:28:25 PM by SilentType]
You need dedicated fighter aircraft, because even your multi-role jets may sometimes be placed more heavily into a single role for a mission. For example, your might be using your F-35's to knock out radar and surface to air missile sights on the ground to clear the way for B-2's going in to hit hardened targets. How do you provide air cover to the B-2s and back-up the F-35s while providing some measure of safety for your fighters? Well, you need F-22s.

An enemy Mig can still get lucky and head toward a B-2's flight path at which point you need some dedicated fighters to take care of them.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:29:35 PM
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By brass:
Was the weak spot the G-Suits?

Just saw an F-22 Turn 180º in about 1.5 lengths of itself at an airshow at a fairly high speed, The thrust vectoring can spin it around like a UFO.

German has more manly pilots or what?


That would be really handy in a BVR engagement.



What if he wants to look behind him?


In answer to your question, I don't know the specifics of the tests that were carried out, only that there were no huge surprises given the manoeuvrability of the Typhoon in a close dogfight when the BVR advantage is lost. As has been said before though, you have to get close first and that's not going to be a walk in the park.




Lost your reply in the noise of the thread. They were talking about G Suit issues and blackouts. Did the Germans have any? To get a hit in a dogfight, they'd be pulling the same Gs. Or was it a multi-aircraft distraction thing that had an extra red join the fight, such as in the SuperBug getting the pip on a 22 several years ago?

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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:31:55 PM
Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
Let's put this another way for our Brit and Euro friends. Step back in time for a moment, to say October 25th, 1415, because really, that is what we have if we were to engage in real combat.

You guys have some of the best warriors available, and evenly matched in hand to hand, or.even better than ours.

This time however, with the F22, we have the ability to deploy a longbow. Most of your fighters, as good as they are, would be taken out long before they could take advantage of our weakness, and at the point they were able to, our numeric advantage would lead to a slaughter. You wouldn't have the numbers to engage us effectively once in close battle. Our longbowmen become knight just as capable as yours, and we still have more knights in our second battle line, the F15s.

Battle of Agincourt, part II.

( I am fully aware the battle was much more complex than this. Still a good analogy, as least for me.)



Not a bad analogy at all.......However, for all the advantages of the longbow, it was never guaranteed to stop everything coming it's way, could be flanked and engaged from multiple directions and once the enemy were within the ranks it was useless. All it takes is a fast breakthrough and the longbow becomes vulnerable, and that is the point of this. All systems have exploitable weaknesses no matter how good they are and it is good to find them ad isolate them before using them in anger. There is an element of good fortune, human error and human ingenuity in all these things.


Out of interest, did you know that the Welsh invented the invented the longbow, and it was the English that developed it strategic value and deployed it?

And the skeletons of longbowmen can be identified by the massive increase in upper body bone mass to support the muscular structure needed to operate the weapon?

Those guys were built like Gorillas.

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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:33:46 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 11:44:39 PM by RVwannaB]
Originally Posted By targettarget:Fucking rights they are; that doesn't mean that I get all jacked up and offended when someone tells me the truth.


Nor do I, the problem is, what you're saying is BS.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:34:45 PM

Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Originally Posted By RVwannaB:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Square me away.
I see no reason for this WVR non sense other than when playing against little countries with 50 year old air planes.
IN a real war reckon folks flying are ones looking for trouble. 100 NM missiles and never see them.
As for this, this play time takes time to train. F22 pilots hardly get any hours because the planes are so fucking expensive to fly and they have been severely restricted in what they can fly.
More hours, better pilots. but neutering the capabilities to make it fun errr, better training, doesn't indict the air craft, just the people in charge of it.


The Nav actually has a point. BFM is a very integral skill set that is very important to maintain. Missiles don't always work, and ROE doesn't always allow BVR shots. You may be forced to go in and visually ID the aircraft. Trust me BFM, is not a d*ck measuring contests, it's a valuable skill.


Lets take your two points.
1. Missiles don't always work. OK, all of them? Do you neuter your plane's qualitative advantage or do you run away another day when they do work? What is the failure point? what are the odds of failure? Is a volley of 10 AMRAAMs worth it for 2 Bandits that may then have an advantage or at least a chance at shooting down one of our 186 F22s? How often do missiles fail? I honestly don't know. And what is so critical of that particular threat to risk your F22.
2. ROE. Got it. But real war means big boy rules. Red Free. The whole point of the ATO is orchestrating the air space. If you have something flying where it ain't supposed to be, blow it the fuck up. Now, ROE in limited conflicts. Do we need F22s doing that? We have plenty of aircraft that can handle MIG 23s out there. Should we develop a cheap dedicated A2A for these kleine krieges that can be flown more than 8 hours a month?
F22 is replacing everything right now. Burning what few hours they can trying to juggle interdiction, deep strike and A2A all on a handful of hours per month? Should we put a plane like that into a role where all its advantages are nullifiied? And with F35 having single axis stealth, it won't alleviate the F22 from any of those duties (maybe interdiction)
Interesting discussion.

I figured out what a BVF and a WVR is but what the hell is a BFM?

You .mil types sure do use a lot of shorthand - its almost like secret squirrel clubhouse speak



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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:36:51 PM
Originally Posted By brass:
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:
Originally Posted By brass:
Was the weak spot the G-Suits?

Just saw an F-22 Turn 180º in about 1.5 lengths of itself at an airshow at a fairly high speed, The thrust vectoring can spin it around like a UFO.

German has more manly pilots or what?


That would be really handy in a BVR engagement.



What if he wants to look behind him?


In answer to your question, I don't know the specifics of the tests that were carried out, only that there were no huge surprises given the manoeuvrability of the Typhoon in a close dogfight when the BVR advantage is lost. As has been said before though, you have to get close first and that's not going to be a walk in the park.




Lost your reply in the noise of the thread. They were talking about G Suit issues and blackouts. Did the Germans have any? To get a hit in a dogfight, they'd be pulling the same Gs. Or was it a multi-aircraft distraction thing that had an extra red join the fight, such as in the SuperBug getting the pip on a 22 several years ago?



I would assume they had G Suilts. The Typhoon is very manoeuvrable aircraft and RAF Pilots certainly use G suits.

From what I understand of the article it was a series of one on one engagements the highlighted the vulnerability
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:38:57 PM
[Last Edit: 8/8/2012 11:43:45 PM by RVwannaB]
Originally Posted By us-kiwi:I figured out what a BVF and a WVR is but what the hell is a BFM?

You .mil types sure do use a lot of shorthand - its almost like secret squirrel clubhouse speak


BFM

Here are some F-15C doing a little BFM, starting around the 6:15 mark.
F-15 Video
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:39:00 PM
Every fighter has a weak spot somewhere, the trick is for you to find out the other guys weak spot before he finds out yours.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:40:37 PM
Sure seems odd that after 20+ years of development the F22 still has problems with things like the oxygen system. I think the taxpayers done got screwed. Wasn't there some sort of speed restriction set in place as well?
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:41:47 PM
Originally Posted By RVwannaB:
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
Lets take your two points.
1. Missiles don't always work. OK, all of them? Do you neuter your plane's qualitative advantage or do you run away another day when they do work? What is the failure point? what are the odds of failure? Is a volley of 10 AMRAAMs worth it for 2 Bandits that may then have an advantage or at least a chance at shooting down one of our 186 F22s? How often do missiles fail? I honestly don't know. And what is so critical of that particular threat to risk your F22.


You bring up some great questions. OPSEC takes over. Is a particular plane worth it? Depends on what you are defending? Someone much higher than my pay grade gets to make that decision.

Originally Posted By Sylvan:2. ROE. Got it. But real war means big boy rules. Red Free. The whole point of the ATO is orchestrating the air space. If you have something flying where it ain't supposed to be, blow it the fuck up. Now, ROE in limited conflicts. Do we need F22s doing that? We have plenty of aircraft that can handle MIG 23s out there. Should we develop a cheap dedicated A2A for these kleine krieges that can be flown more than 8 hours a month?


Depends! I sure hope it's a very liberal ROE, but like with anything else in life, you train for the worst and hope for the best.

Originally Posted By Sylvan:F22 is replacing everything right now.


Not really. It's manly replacing the Light Greys. <––––Edit...light greys = F-15C



That ain't all they replacing.
We still have F15Cs, we are lacking some other airframes the F22 is more critical at. and, again, with just a few hours to train, guess where they go?

The person way above your pay grade making that call is a fighter pilot. This may come as a shock, but I am not sure I trust him to make the smart call.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:43:11 PM


Hell, the Europeans couldn't even arm their own damn planes or fuel then for the Libyan campaign, which was a seriously limited engagement.

USAF probably had to foot the bill for the fuel they used for that exercise.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:45:46 PM
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 7:56:10 PM by Rich_V]
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:


If you think that's bad you should see us Brits when we really get started.




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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:46:04 PM
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 7:46:45 PM by ArmyInfantryVet]

Originally Posted By targettarget:

Originally Posted By Grin:

Why do you have to take every single motherfucking opportunity to bash anything American?

And since when is telling the truth considered bashing?

Your super-duper F-22 was evenly beat by a fighter that's 5 years older and 25% of the cost. That's not bashing, that's fucking fact.



it's about even in a dog fight? so what?

Every other aspect of fighter combat, the F-22 kicks the shit out of the Eurofighter.

Good luck trying to close with an F-22 when he sees you 30 or 40 miles out, and already has a missile flying up your ass even before your radar sees the F-22
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:50:24 PM
Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:

<snip>

Out of interest, did you know that the Welsh invented the invented the longbow, and it was the English that developed it strategic value and deployed it?

And the skeletons of longbowmen can be identified by the massive increase in upper body bone mass to support the muscular structure needed to operate the weapon?

Those guys were built like Gorillas.



Interesting. I did not know that.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:50:56 PM
[Last Edit: 7/30/2012 7:58:59 PM by RVwannaB]
Originally Posted By Sylvan:The person way above your pay grade making that call is a fighter pilot. This may come as a shock, but I am not sure I trust him to make the smart call.


Hey now, we ain't all that bad! Again, I don't get to make that call...we are all merely pawns in the fight. If they decide that the point we are defending is worth more than our lives...well, we all signed on the dotted line.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:54:48 PM
Both the US and nations employing the Eurofighter need to be wary not to let pride bias their outlook on this. On our side of things, we need to realize that there may be weak links. Especially in close range. Vectored thrust is out there.

Eurofighter countries need to realize that BVR may be more of a reality these days. They can't count on dogfights.

What the article didn't specify was how they did it. There was a way F15s could get kills by getting the f22 into a turning stall.

And of course we may not be getting the full story, I sure hope were not.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:57:53 PM

Originally Posted By Agent_Funky:

individual German Typhoons flew against single F-22s in basic fighter maneuvers meant to simulate a close-range dogfight.

Not surprising. The Typhoon's airframe is designed to be ultra maneuverable. The F-22 compromises this for stealth. F-22's tactics are to sneak up your tailpipe and see if you can outmaneuver a missile.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:58:43 PM
Originally Posted By Sylvan:
these playing around dog fights are just fighter pilot ego management.
real war means BVR.
WVR is a chance to play, which means its all they do.


Tomcat guys I worked with said that the USAF was all about lobbing AMRAAMs from BVR and a lot less into BFM than was the Navy. LIke me, his last cockpit time was ~10 years ago, but it makes sense given the operating environments. CVN-based guys are a lot more likely to need to do a VID than land based given the respective operating environments.
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Posted: 7/30/2012 7:59:05 PM
If there were a country I'd expect to be capable of producing a fighter aircraft that could rival the United States, it'd be Germany.
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