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Posted: 3/2/2015 11:38:06 PM EDT
[#1]
Kicking it back to the top.... where it belongs!
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PA, USA
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Posted: 3/2/2015 11:52:04 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 74novaman:
Thanks for taking the time to post this. Powerful stuff. Yes sir, very informative post. Thank you |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 9:56:13 PM EDT
[#3]
From one of my students:
Third, and most interestingly, I was able to use some of what you taught. About a week ago, my wife and I were walking our dogs at 22:00 around the neighborhood (where Alexandria and Arlington meet, so it's not exactly dangerous) and we turned a corner, to find two young male individuals hanging out on the sidewalk in 8-degree weather. There was a tire iron on the ground. I told my wife to be careful and keep the dogs close; as we got closer, one of the males picked up the tire iron, as they kept looking at us. At about 20 feet away, I unzipped my jacket and flapped it slightly open on my right hip (where my Glock 23 was holstered) -- the tire iron went back on the ground. As we walked by these two males, I made sure my jacket moved just enough, with my hand physically present, to display the Glock's grip -- they were silent and gave us space, without any threatening movements. Without your course, without carrying my firearm, or without knowing how to address the situation in a non-escalatory fashion, the outcome would have been extraordinarily different. That goes into the book as a win. |
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Posted: 3/3/2015 10:21:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1911SFOREVER:
From one of my students: Third, and most interestingly, I was able to use some of what you taught. About a week ago, my wife and I were walking our dogs at 22:00 around the neighborhood (where Alexandria and Arlington meet, so it's not exactly dangerous) and we turned a corner, to find two young male individuals hanging out on the sidewalk in 8-degree weather. There was a tire iron on the ground. I told my wife to be careful and keep the dogs close; as we got closer, one of the males picked up the tire iron, as they kept looking at us. At about 20 feet away, I unzipped my jacket and flapped it slightly open on my right hip (where my Glock 23 was holstered) -- the tire iron went back on the ground. As we walked by these two males, I made sure my jacket moved just enough, with my hand physically present, to display the Glock's grip -- they were silent and gave us space, without any threatening movements. Without your course, without carrying my firearm, or without knowing how to address the situation in a non-escalatory fashion, the outcome would have been extraordinarily different. That goes into the book as a win. The most important thing was that your student was paying attention. Situational awareness can be the hardest thing to teach someone that has never been a victim. That is why I push it so much in my classes. |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 1:41:53 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Altair:
The most important thing was that your student was paying attention. Situational awareness can be the hardest thing to teach someone that has never been a victim. That is why I push it so much in my classes. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Altair:
Originally Posted By 1911SFOREVER:
From one of my students: Third, and most interestingly, I was able to use some of what you taught. About a week ago, my wife and I were walking our dogs at 22:00 around the neighborhood (where Alexandria and Arlington meet, so it's not exactly dangerous) and we turned a corner, to find two young male individuals hanging out on the sidewalk in 8-degree weather. There was a tire iron on the ground. I told my wife to be careful and keep the dogs close; as we got closer, one of the males picked up the tire iron, as they kept looking at us. At about 20 feet away, I unzipped my jacket and flapped it slightly open on my right hip (where my Glock 23 was holstered) -- the tire iron went back on the ground. As we walked by these two males, I made sure my jacket moved just enough, with my hand physically present, to display the Glock's grip -- they were silent and gave us space, without any threatening movements. Without your course, without carrying my firearm, or without knowing how to address the situation in a non-escalatory fashion, the outcome would have been extraordinarily different. That goes into the book as a win. The most important thing was that your student was paying attention. Situational awareness can be the hardest thing to teach someone that has never been a victim. That is why I push it so much in my classes. It's shocking how bad this is for most people. Great to hear your student had the best possible outcome. Deescalating a very real physical threat WITHOUT having to draw a weapon. The thing is you have to be aware of the threat first. |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 8:43:22 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1911SFOREVER:
From one of my students: Third, and most interestingly, I was able to use some of what you taught. About a week ago, my wife and I were walking our dogs at 22:00 around the neighborhood (where Alexandria and Arlington meet, so it's not exactly dangerous) and we turned a corner, to find two young male individuals hanging out on the sidewalk in 8-degree weather. There was a tire iron on the ground. I told my wife to be careful and keep the dogs close; as we got closer, one of the males picked up the tire iron, as they kept looking at us. At about 20 feet away, I unzipped my jacket and flapped it slightly open on my right hip (where my Glock 23 was holstered) -- the tire iron went back on the ground. As we walked by these two males, I made sure my jacket moved just enough, with my hand physically present, to display the Glock's grip -- they were silent and gave us space, without any threatening movements. Without your course, without carrying my firearm, or without knowing how to address the situation in a non-escalatory fashion, the outcome would have been extraordinarily different. That goes into the book as a win. Yup. Getting people to listen to that voice in their head that doesn't like a situation and to act on what they're perceiving is a win. |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 7:39:07 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1911SFOREVER:
From one of my students: Third, and most interestingly, I was able to use some of what you taught. About a week ago, my wife and I were walking our dogs at 22:00 around the neighborhood (where Alexandria and Arlington meet, so it's not exactly dangerous) and we turned a corner, to find two young male individuals hanging out on the sidewalk in 8-degree weather. There was a tire iron on the ground. I told my wife to be careful and keep the dogs close; as we got closer, one of the males picked up the tire iron, as they kept looking at us. At about 20 feet away, I unzipped my jacket and flapped it slightly open on my right hip (where my Glock 23 was holstered) -- the tire iron went back on the ground. As we walked by these two males, I made sure my jacket moved just enough, with my hand physically present, to display the Glock's grip -- they were silent and gave us space, without any threatening movements. Without your course, without carrying my firearm, or without knowing how to address the situation in a non-escalatory fashion, the outcome would have been extraordinarily different. That goes into the book as a win. Definitely a win. No fight means you win. That guy immediately recognized the potential trouble and by speaking a language those guys can understand discouraged them. Had your student not made his play those guys might have approached them with the tire iron creating greater escalation and possibly forcing the guy to fire. Your student was spared the hassle of dealing with a shooting but unfortunately those guys are still on the prowl somewhere. |
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Posted: 3/5/2015 12:59:04 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BurnedOutLEO:
Definitely a win. No fight means you win. That guy immediately recognized the potential trouble and by speaking a language those guys can understand discouraged them. Had your student not made his play those guys might have approached them with the tire iron creating greater escalation and possibly forcing the guy to fire. Your student was spared the hassle of dealing with a shooting but unfortunately those guys are still on the prowl somewhere. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BurnedOutLEO:
Originally Posted By 1911SFOREVER:
From one of my students: Third, and most interestingly, I was able to use some of what you taught. About a week ago, my wife and I were walking our dogs at 22:00 around the neighborhood (where Alexandria and Arlington meet, so it's not exactly dangerous) and we turned a corner, to find two young male individuals hanging out on the sidewalk in 8-degree weather. There was a tire iron on the ground. I told my wife to be careful and keep the dogs close; as we got closer, one of the males picked up the tire iron, as they kept looking at us. At about 20 feet away, I unzipped my jacket and flapped it slightly open on my right hip (where my Glock 23 was holstered) -- the tire iron went back on the ground. As we walked by these two males, I made sure my jacket moved just enough, with my hand physically present, to display the Glock's grip -- they were silent and gave us space, without any threatening movements. Without your course, without carrying my firearm, or without knowing how to address the situation in a non-escalatory fashion, the outcome would have been extraordinarily different. That goes into the book as a win. Definitely a win. No fight means you win. That guy immediately recognized the potential trouble and by speaking a language those guys can understand discouraged them. Had your student not made his play those guys might have approached them with the tire iron creating greater escalation and possibly forcing the guy to fire. Your student was spared the hassle of dealing with a shooting but unfortunately those guys are still on the prowl somewhere. What would the outcome had been like (most likely) if the dog-walking couple had simply turned back the way they came, once they had come around the corner and seen the sketchy guys? Genuinely curious to hear the answer from the more streetwise Arfcommers, since I had thought it was better to not pass so close to person, or group of people who set your Spidey senses tingling, and avoid the situation altogether if at all possible. |
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Posted: 3/5/2015 1:40:41 AM EDT
[#9]
despite reading through when it comes up, for some reason i have never subscribed to this thread.
let's fix that... |
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Posted: 3/5/2015 2:33:15 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By missme:
What would the outcome had been like (most likely) if the dog-walking couple had simply turned back the way they came, once they had come around the corner and seen the sketchy guys? Genuinely curious to hear the answer from the more streetwise Arfcommers, since I had thought it was better to not pass so close to person, or group of people who set your Spidey senses tingling, and avoid the situation altogether if at all possible. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By missme:
Originally Posted By BurnedOutLEO:
Originally Posted By 1911SFOREVER:
From one of my students: Third, and most interestingly, I was able to use some of what you taught. About a week ago, my wife and I were walking our dogs at 22:00 around the neighborhood (where Alexandria and Arlington meet, so it's not exactly dangerous) and we turned a corner, to find two young male individuals hanging out on the sidewalk in 8-degree weather. There was a tire iron on the ground. I told my wife to be careful and keep the dogs close; as we got closer, one of the males picked up the tire iron, as they kept looking at us. At about 20 feet away, I unzipped my jacket and flapped it slightly open on my right hip (where my Glock 23 was holstered) -- the tire iron went back on the ground. As we walked by these two males, I made sure my jacket moved just enough, with my hand physically present, to display the Glock's grip -- they were silent and gave us space, without any threatening movements. Without your course, without carrying my firearm, or without knowing how to address the situation in a non-escalatory fashion, the outcome would have been extraordinarily different. That goes into the book as a win. Definitely a win. No fight means you win. That guy immediately recognized the potential trouble and by speaking a language those guys can understand discouraged them. Had your student not made his play those guys might have approached them with the tire iron creating greater escalation and possibly forcing the guy to fire. Your student was spared the hassle of dealing with a shooting but unfortunately those guys are still on the prowl somewhere. What would the outcome had been like (most likely) if the dog-walking couple had simply turned back the way they came, once they had come around the corner and seen the sketchy guys? Genuinely curious to hear the answer from the more streetwise Arfcommers, since I had thought it was better to not pass so close to person, or group of people who set your Spidey senses tingling, and avoid the situation altogether if at all possible. You have a good point. I too wondered about the part of the story where the dog walkers went by the guys and the guy made his gun even more known to them after the one guy threw down the tire iron. I am not going to second guess the guy though. Once the thugs armed themselves turning around and trying to walk away would probably just result in them pursuing. That is blood in the water. Once they got the message I would have probably crossed the street if I hadn't already to create distance and would have skipped the displaying the gun. It was that guy's first time apparently. Next time he will probably handle it a little better. At least he has the idea. |
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Posted: 3/5/2015 6:15:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Great post!
BTT |
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Posted: 3/5/2015 6:51:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BurnedOutLEO:
You have a good point. I too wondered about the part of the story where the dog walkers went by the guys and the guy made his gun even more known to them after the one guy threw down the tire iron. I am not going to second guess the guy though. Once the thugs armed themselves turning around and trying to walk away would probably just result in them pursuing. That is blood in the water. Once they got the message I would have probably crossed the street if I hadn't already to create distance and would have skipped the displaying the gun. It was that guy's first time apparently. Next time he will probably handle it a little better. At least he has the idea. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BurnedOutLEO:
Originally Posted By missme:
Originally Posted By BurnedOutLEO:
Originally Posted By 1911SFOREVER:
From one of my students: Third, and most interestingly, I was able to use some of what you taught. About a week ago, my wife and I were walking our dogs at 22:00 around the neighborhood (where Alexandria and Arlington meet, so it's not exactly dangerous) and we turned a corner, to find two young male individuals hanging out on the sidewalk in 8-degree weather. There was a tire iron on the ground. I told my wife to be careful and keep the dogs close; as we got closer, one of the males picked up the tire iron, as they kept looking at us. At about 20 feet away, I unzipped my jacket and flapped it slightly open on my right hip (where my Glock 23 was holstered) -- the tire iron went back on the ground. As we walked by these two males, I made sure my jacket moved just enough, with my hand physically present, to display the Glock's grip -- they were silent and gave us space, without any threatening movements. Without your course, without carrying my firearm, or without knowing how to address the situation in a non-escalatory fashion, the outcome would have been extraordinarily different. That goes into the book as a win. Definitely a win. No fight means you win. That guy immediately recognized the potential trouble and by speaking a language those guys can understand discouraged them. Had your student not made his play those guys might have approached them with the tire iron creating greater escalation and possibly forcing the guy to fire. Your student was spared the hassle of dealing with a shooting but unfortunately those guys are still on the prowl somewhere. What would the outcome had been like (most likely) if the dog-walking couple had simply turned back the way they came, once they had come around the corner and seen the sketchy guys? Genuinely curious to hear the answer from the more streetwise Arfcommers, since I had thought it was better to not pass so close to person, or group of people who set your Spidey senses tingling, and avoid the situation altogether if at all possible. You have a good point. I too wondered about the part of the story where the dog walkers went by the guys and the guy made his gun even more known to them after the one guy threw down the tire iron. I am not going to second guess the guy though. Once the thugs armed themselves turning around and trying to walk away would probably just result in them pursuing. That is blood in the water. Once they got the message I would have probably crossed the street if I hadn't already to create distance and would have skipped the displaying the gun. It was that guy's first time apparently. Next time he will probably handle it a little better. At least he has the idea. It's great to see you in the thread again. |
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Posted: 3/6/2015 12:25:18 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ClatuVertanictu: I was in fear for my life...I would like to speak to my attorney...then STFU. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ClatuVertanictu: Originally Posted By gndmepyon: My question about defending yourself is: If I end up having to defend myself, do I explain it to the cops or keep my mouth shut until I have an attorney present? The ambulance is for the chest pains, mental trauma, anxiety attack, or the mere fact you were forced to defend your life from the attack of a madman. |
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Posted: 3/6/2015 12:44:30 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cpl0313: You request an ambulance and make no statements until your lawyer arrives. The ambulance is for the chest pains, mental trauma, anxiety attack, or the mere fact you were forced to defend your life from the attack of a madman. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cpl0313: Originally Posted By ClatuVertanictu: Originally Posted By gndmepyon: My question about defending yourself is: If I end up having to defend myself, do I explain it to the cops or keep my mouth shut until I have an attorney present? No need to take emergency services away from those that actually need it. |
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Posted: 3/7/2015 2:13:09 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BurnedOutLEO:
You have a good point. I too wondered about the part of the story where the dog walkers went by the guys and the guy made his gun even more known to them after the one guy threw down the tire iron. I am not going to second guess the guy though. Once the thugs armed themselves turning around and trying to walk away would probably just result in them pursuing. That is blood in the water. Once they got the message I would have probably crossed the street if I hadn't already to create distance and would have skipped the displaying the gun. It was that guy's first time apparently. Next time he will probably handle it a little better. At least he has the idea. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BurnedOutLEO:
Originally Posted By missme:
Originally Posted By BurnedOutLEO:
Originally Posted By 1911SFOREVER:
From one of my students: Third, and most interestingly, I was able to use some of what you taught. About a week ago, my wife and I were walking our dogs at 22:00 around the neighborhood (where Alexandria and Arlington meet, so it's not exactly dangerous) and we turned a corner, to find two young male individuals hanging out on the sidewalk in 8-degree weather. There was a tire iron on the ground. I told my wife to be careful and keep the dogs close; as we got closer, one of the males picked up the tire iron, as they kept looking at us. At about 20 feet away, I unzipped my jacket and flapped it slightly open on my right hip (where my Glock 23 was holstered) -- the tire iron went back on the ground. As we walked by these two males, I made sure my jacket moved just enough, with my hand physically present, to display the Glock's grip -- they were silent and gave us space, without any threatening movements. Without your course, without carrying my firearm, or without knowing how to address the situation in a non-escalatory fashion, the outcome would have been extraordinarily different. That goes into the book as a win. Definitely a win. No fight means you win. That guy immediately recognized the potential trouble and by speaking a language those guys can understand discouraged them. Had your student not made his play those guys might have approached them with the tire iron creating greater escalation and possibly forcing the guy to fire. Your student was spared the hassle of dealing with a shooting but unfortunately those guys are still on the prowl somewhere. What would the outcome had been like (most likely) if the dog-walking couple had simply turned back the way they came, once they had come around the corner and seen the sketchy guys? Genuinely curious to hear the answer from the more streetwise Arfcommers, since I had thought it was better to not pass so close to person, or group of people who set your Spidey senses tingling, and avoid the situation altogether if at all possible. You have a good point. I too wondered about the part of the story where the dog walkers went by the guys and the guy made his gun even more known to them after the one guy threw down the tire iron. I am not going to second guess the guy though. Once the thugs armed themselves turning around and trying to walk away would probably just result in them pursuing. That is blood in the water. Once they got the message I would have probably crossed the street if I hadn't already to create distance and would have skipped the displaying the gun. It was that guy's first time apparently. Next time he will probably handle it a little better. At least he has the idea. I questioned him on that exact topic. "Well, if you know the area, we're about half a mile above whereXXX meets XXX in XXX, off ofxXX. The triangle formed by the two XXXand XXX is, for lack of a better phrase, heavily Hispanic and non-English. Many of the residents I've run into around here, while not dangerous, do a lot of posturing and have oversized attitudes. From my experiences in Northern California with the knife-based Hispanic gang culture there, demonstrating a stronger position (without offending anyone outright) usually ends things, so that's what I went with. The part of the street where it happened is also dark and secluded at night, so there was no guarantee that crossing the street or turning around would be successful. My assumption was that if I show I'm aware, prepared (I also had a tactical flashlight and knife in my jacket pocket, as always), and not afraid of them, they'll leave us alone. If they caught us off guard or we demonstrated fear/weakness, it could be taken advantage of later. But, since I did nothing to overtly offend or challenge them and hurt their egos, I don't think this will come back around -- I made my point and I expect to be left alone, just as I would do if in their position. In my younger years, I wandered the streets of San Francisco, Oakland, and San Jose very late at night (often by myself -- it's a long story), and never had an issue, because of how I presented myself at just the right level of "leave me alone." So, I went with my gut feeling here, ready to act if they decided I wasn't serious, but even-handed and calm enough to not present myself as an open threat or rival, unless challenged and forced to respond." They're moving ASAP. He's a good kid. |
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Posted: 3/7/2015 10:28:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: John_Wayne777]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
I don't agree with the ambulance unless it's actually necessary. No need to take emergency services away from those that actually need it. I was at the Tactical Conference and I watched multiple middle-aged males go through a FOF scenario for the first time...and we were starting to look at medical intervention for one dude because we thought he was going to have a cardiac event and drop right there in front of us. I'm telling everybody this straight up: Unless you have a lot of experience with adrenaline and its effects on you, especially in life-or-death situations, do not fuck around. Your typical middle-aged dude that's pretty sedentary and a bit overweight can have a serious cardiac event that will kill in an event like this. I guarantee you that if such a person shows up at the ER complaining of chest pains and trouble breathing the docs there will not fuck around...they will act immediately because what I just described is a recipe for death. I've personally spent quality time in a parking lot trying in vain to pump life back into a dead guy's chest who dropped after far less physical stress than what I saw in those FOF scenarios...and everybody knew that shit was fake. I'm not a medical expert, but I've talked to a lot of folks who are about this and I'd advise everyone to err on the side of caution. As in with a wide margin on the side of caution. The symptoms you experience may be just the normal effect of a serious adrenaline dump...or it could be the early stages of something that will kill you. If you don't have a lot of experience with these sorts of things you don't know the difference...so take the ambulance ride. EDIT - I'll note something else that's been rattling around in my head for a while. At the same conference I was in the same room with a bunch of dudes who have been stabbed in a fucked-up-tangle or battle over a sidearm. or who have personally witnessed the aftermath of the same. Paul Sharp, who taught one of the blocks of instruction I attended on weapon retention/disarms, talked about an officer in his department who got into a fight with a suspect trying to take him into custody. Suspect tries to take the officer's gun, fight is on in earnest. The suspect, though, "bitch hits" with the sides of his fists. The officer finishes the arrest as backup arrives. Officer is winded, but says it's fine. He's a trained fighter so he's been winded before...except he gets worse. To the point where it's clear he's really struggling. The officer did not realize he had been stabbed several times with a small knife. Under the influence of adrenaline, wearing a dark uniform at night nobody could really tell he had several serious stab wounds until the guy passed out and damn near bled to death right in front of the other officers standing there. The officer here not knowing he'd sustained multiple stab wounds is consistent from what I've heard from other people who didn't realize they'd been stabbed until well after the fireworks were over. Do not believe that in the aftermath of a fight for your life you'll be able to accurately assess your medical state...especially if a blade was involved. |
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Posted: 3/7/2015 10:48:40 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By John_Wayne777:
I was at the Tactical Conference and I watched multiple middle-aged males go through a FOF scenario for the first time...and we were starting to look at medical intervention for one dude because we thought he was going to have a cardiac event and drop right there in front of us. I'm telling everybody this straight up: Unless you have a lot of experience with adrenaline and its effects on you, especially in life-or-death situations, do not fuck around. Your typical middle-aged dude that's pretty sedentary and a bit overweight can have a serious cardiac event that will kill in an event like this. I guarantee you that if such a person shows up at the ER complaining of chest pains and trouble breathing the docs there will not fuck around...they will act immediately because what I just described is a recipe for death. I've personally spent quality time in a parking lot trying in vain to pump life back into a dead guy's chest who dropped after far less physical stress than what I saw in those FOF scenarios...and everybody knew that shit was fake. I'm not a medical expert, but I've talked to a lot of folks who are about this and I'd advise everyone to err on the side of caution. As in with a wide margin on the side of caution. The symptoms you experience may be just the normal effect of a serious adrenaline dump...or it could be the early stages of something that will kill you. If you don't have a lot of experience with these sorts of things you don't know the difference...so take the ambulance ride. EDIT - I'll note something else that's been rattling around in my head for a while. At the same conference I was in the same room with a bunch of dudes who have been stabbed in a fucked-up-tangle or battle over a sidearm. or who have personally witnessed the aftermath of the same. Paul Sharp, who taught one of the blocks of instruction I attended on weapon retention/disarms, talked about an officer in his department who got into a fight with a suspect trying to take him into custody. Suspect tries to take the officer's gun, fight is on in earnest. The suspect, though, "bitch hits" with the sides of his fists. The officer finishes the arrest as backup arrives. Officer is winded, but says it's fine. He's a trained fighter so he's been winded before...except he gets worse. To the point where it's clear he's really struggling. The officer did not realize he had been stabbed several times with a small knife. Under the influence of adrenaline, wearing a dark uniform at night nobody could really tell he had several serious stab wounds until the guy passed out and damn near bled to death right in front of the other officers standing there. The officer here not knowing he'd sustained multiple stab wounds is consistent from what I've heard from other people who didn't realize they'd been stabbed until well after the fireworks were over. Do not believe that in the aftermath of a fight for your life you'll be able to accurately assess your medical state...especially if a blade was involved. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
I don't agree with the ambulance unless it's actually necessary. No need to take emergency services away from those that actually need it. I was at the Tactical Conference and I watched multiple middle-aged males go through a FOF scenario for the first time...and we were starting to look at medical intervention for one dude because we thought he was going to have a cardiac event and drop right there in front of us. I'm telling everybody this straight up: Unless you have a lot of experience with adrenaline and its effects on you, especially in life-or-death situations, do not fuck around. Your typical middle-aged dude that's pretty sedentary and a bit overweight can have a serious cardiac event that will kill in an event like this. I guarantee you that if such a person shows up at the ER complaining of chest pains and trouble breathing the docs there will not fuck around...they will act immediately because what I just described is a recipe for death. I've personally spent quality time in a parking lot trying in vain to pump life back into a dead guy's chest who dropped after far less physical stress than what I saw in those FOF scenarios...and everybody knew that shit was fake. I'm not a medical expert, but I've talked to a lot of folks who are about this and I'd advise everyone to err on the side of caution. As in with a wide margin on the side of caution. The symptoms you experience may be just the normal effect of a serious adrenaline dump...or it could be the early stages of something that will kill you. If you don't have a lot of experience with these sorts of things you don't know the difference...so take the ambulance ride. EDIT - I'll note something else that's been rattling around in my head for a while. At the same conference I was in the same room with a bunch of dudes who have been stabbed in a fucked-up-tangle or battle over a sidearm. or who have personally witnessed the aftermath of the same. Paul Sharp, who taught one of the blocks of instruction I attended on weapon retention/disarms, talked about an officer in his department who got into a fight with a suspect trying to take him into custody. Suspect tries to take the officer's gun, fight is on in earnest. The suspect, though, "bitch hits" with the sides of his fists. The officer finishes the arrest as backup arrives. Officer is winded, but says it's fine. He's a trained fighter so he's been winded before...except he gets worse. To the point where it's clear he's really struggling. The officer did not realize he had been stabbed several times with a small knife. Under the influence of adrenaline, wearing a dark uniform at night nobody could really tell he had several serious stab wounds until the guy passed out and damn near bled to death right in front of the other officers standing there. The officer here not knowing he'd sustained multiple stab wounds is consistent from what I've heard from other people who didn't realize they'd been stabbed until well after the fireworks were over. Do not believe that in the aftermath of a fight for your life you'll be able to accurately assess your medical state...especially if a blade was involved. Yup. Easy to misinterpret even really significant pain in the middle/aftermath of an adrenaline rush. |
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Posted: 3/7/2015 11:03:04 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By John_Wayne777:
I was at the Tactical Conference and I watched multiple middle-aged males go through a FOF scenario for the first time...and we were starting to look at medical intervention for one dude because we thought he was going to have a cardiac event and drop right there in front of us. I'm telling everybody this straight up: Unless you have a lot of experience with adrenaline and its effects on you, especially in life-or-death situations, do not fuck around. Your typical middle-aged dude that's pretty sedentary and a bit overweight can have a serious cardiac event that will kill in an event like this. I guarantee you that if such a person shows up at the ER complaining of chest pains and trouble breathing the docs there will not fuck around...they will act immediately because what I just described is a recipe for death. I've personally spent quality time in a parking lot trying in vain to pump life back into a dead guy's chest who dropped after far less physical stress than what I saw in those FOF scenarios...and everybody knew that shit was fake. I'm not a medical expert, but I've talked to a lot of folks who are about this and I'd advise everyone to err on the side of caution. As in with a wide margin on the side of caution. The symptoms you experience may be just the normal effect of a serious adrenaline dump...or it could be the early stages of something that will kill you. If you don't have a lot of experience with these sorts of things you don't know the difference...so take the ambulance ride. EDIT - I'll note something else that's been rattling around in my head for a while. At the same conference I was in the same room with a bunch of dudes who have been stabbed in a fucked-up-tangle or battle over a sidearm. or who have personally witnessed the aftermath of the same. Paul Sharp, who taught one of the blocks of instruction I attended on weapon retention/disarms, talked about an officer in his department who got into a fight with a suspect trying to take him into custody. Suspect tries to take the officer's gun, fight is on in earnest. The suspect, though, "bitch hits" with the sides of his fists. The officer finishes the arrest as backup arrives. Officer is winded, but says it's fine. He's a trained fighter so he's been winded before...except he gets worse. To the point where it's clear he's really struggling. The officer did not realize he had been stabbed several times with a small knife. Under the influence of adrenaline, wearing a dark uniform at night nobody could really tell he had several serious stab wounds until the guy passed out and damn near bled to death right in front of the other officers standing there. The officer here not knowing he'd sustained multiple stab wounds is consistent from what I've heard from other people who didn't realize they'd been stabbed until well after the fireworks were over. Do not believe that in the aftermath of a fight for your life you'll be able to accurately assess your medical state...especially if a blade was involved. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
I don't agree with the ambulance unless it's actually necessary. No need to take emergency services away from those that actually need it. I was at the Tactical Conference and I watched multiple middle-aged males go through a FOF scenario for the first time...and we were starting to look at medical intervention for one dude because we thought he was going to have a cardiac event and drop right there in front of us. I'm telling everybody this straight up: Unless you have a lot of experience with adrenaline and its effects on you, especially in life-or-death situations, do not fuck around. Your typical middle-aged dude that's pretty sedentary and a bit overweight can have a serious cardiac event that will kill in an event like this. I guarantee you that if such a person shows up at the ER complaining of chest pains and trouble breathing the docs there will not fuck around...they will act immediately because what I just described is a recipe for death. I've personally spent quality time in a parking lot trying in vain to pump life back into a dead guy's chest who dropped after far less physical stress than what I saw in those FOF scenarios...and everybody knew that shit was fake. I'm not a medical expert, but I've talked to a lot of folks who are about this and I'd advise everyone to err on the side of caution. As in with a wide margin on the side of caution. The symptoms you experience may be just the normal effect of a serious adrenaline dump...or it could be the early stages of something that will kill you. If you don't have a lot of experience with these sorts of things you don't know the difference...so take the ambulance ride. EDIT - I'll note something else that's been rattling around in my head for a while. At the same conference I was in the same room with a bunch of dudes who have been stabbed in a fucked-up-tangle or battle over a sidearm. or who have personally witnessed the aftermath of the same. Paul Sharp, who taught one of the blocks of instruction I attended on weapon retention/disarms, talked about an officer in his department who got into a fight with a suspect trying to take him into custody. Suspect tries to take the officer's gun, fight is on in earnest. The suspect, though, "bitch hits" with the sides of his fists. The officer finishes the arrest as backup arrives. Officer is winded, but says it's fine. He's a trained fighter so he's been winded before...except he gets worse. To the point where it's clear he's really struggling. The officer did not realize he had been stabbed several times with a small knife. Under the influence of adrenaline, wearing a dark uniform at night nobody could really tell he had several serious stab wounds until the guy passed out and damn near bled to death right in front of the other officers standing there. The officer here not knowing he'd sustained multiple stab wounds is consistent from what I've heard from other people who didn't realize they'd been stabbed until well after the fireworks were over. Do not believe that in the aftermath of a fight for your life you'll be able to accurately assess your medical state...especially if a blade was involved. |
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Posted: 3/7/2015 11:06:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: John_Wayne777]
[#19]
So some sage advice I've just gotten from Mr. Sharp:
When you report you've just been in a fight, you are likely to be asked if you are injured. "I don't know." ...is a perfectly valid response to that question. ...and don't even get me started on people who have sustained blows to the head, which can cause all manner of problems not immediately obvious on scene until the person collapses and dies. Watch this video: 
This dude was stabbed in the heart and had no idea. |
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Posted: 3/7/2015 11:14:19 PM EDT
[#20]
I would have no qualms about taking an ambulance. And I have no doubt my paramedics would take great care of me.
People take ambulances for hangnails... I'd not hesitate to call one for a once-in-a-lifetime event like this. |
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Posted: 3/7/2015 11:16:13 PM EDT
[#21]
Dang, great reminder JW_777... knives are one thing nobody wants to mess with, and worse if you're involved in a knife fight but don't know it.
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Posted: 3/7/2015 11:21:15 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By macman37:
Dang, great reminder JW_777... knives are one thing nobody wants to mess with, and worse if you're involved in a knife fight but don't know it. I'm not an expert...but I've talked to a shitload of people who are and I say this: The vast majority of people who get stabbed had no idea they were in a knife fight until they'd been stabbed. Often they have no idea even after the attack is over. |
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Posted: 3/7/2015 11:31:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By John_Wayne777:
So some sage advice I've just gotten from Mr. Sharp: When you report you've just been in a fight, you are likely to be asked if you are injured. "I don't know." ...is a perfectly valid response to that question. ...and don't even get me started on people who have sustained blows to the head, which can cause all manner of problems not immediately obvious on scene until the person collapses and dies. Watch this video:  http://youtu.be/lzNjB4olRlU
This dude was stabbed in the heart and had no idea. That also reinforces everything in this thread about the idea that evil people will act in a way we won't naturally even think to expect. Completely out of the blue. Also, WTF? 15 years for that?? |
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Posted: 3/7/2015 11:34:00 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By John_Wayne777:
So some sage advice I've just gotten from Mr. Sharp: When you report you've just been in a fight, you are likely to be asked if you are injured. "I don't know." ...is a perfectly valid response to that question. ...and don't even get me started on people who have sustained blows to the head, which can cause all manner of problems not immediately obvious on scene until the person collapses and dies. Watch this video: http://youtu.be/lzNjB4olRlU
This dude was stabbed in the heart and had no idea. That guy got a minimum 15 year sentence? What in the actual blue fuck is wrong with England? |
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Posted: 3/7/2015 11:37:42 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Smitro:
That guy got a minimum 15 year sentence? What in the actual blue fuck is wrong with England? Scumbag is a juvenile, I believe, and that's a minimum. I would hope Her Majesty's government would try to keep him in a cage longer than that given the nature of his crime and the fact that he's a white boy. |
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Posted: 3/7/2015 11:56:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: New_Username]
[#26]
This should be stickied in the Carry section.
Great read for anyone who CCW's. Mod's make it happen. Can we keep this open GD thread, and have it also stickied in Concealed Carry subforum? ETA: Just the OP of the thread needs to be stickied in CCW, great information for new carriers. |
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Posted: 3/8/2015 12:18:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: LordEC911]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By missme:
What would the outcome had been like (most likely) if the dog-walking couple had simply turned back the way they came, once they had come around the corner and seen the sketchy guys? Genuinely curious to hear the answer from the more streetwise Arfcommers, since I had thought it was better to not pass so close to person, or group of people who set your Spidey senses tingling, and avoid the situation altogether if at all possible. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By missme:
Originally Posted By BurnedOutLEO:
Originally Posted By 1911SFOREVER:
From one of my students: Third, and most interestingly, I was able to use some of what you taught. About a week ago, my wife and I were walking our dogs at 22:00 around the neighborhood (where Alexandria and Arlington meet, so it's not exactly dangerous) and we turned a corner, to find two young male individuals hanging out on the sidewalk in 8-degree weather. There was a tire iron on the ground. I told my wife to be careful and keep the dogs close; as we got closer, one of the males picked up the tire iron, as they kept looking at us. At about 20 feet away, I unzipped my jacket and flapped it slightly open on my right hip (where my Glock 23 was holstered) -- the tire iron went back on the ground. As we walked by these two males, I made sure my jacket moved just enough, with my hand physically present, to display the Glock's grip -- they were silent and gave us space, without any threatening movements. Without your course, without carrying my firearm, or without knowing how to address the situation in a non-escalatory fashion, the outcome would have been extraordinarily different. That goes into the book as a win. Definitely a win. No fight means you win. That guy immediately recognized the potential trouble and by speaking a language those guys can understand discouraged them. Had your student not made his play those guys might have approached them with the tire iron creating greater escalation and possibly forcing the guy to fire. Your student was spared the hassle of dealing with a shooting but unfortunately those guys are still on the prowl somewhere. What would the outcome had been like (most likely) if the dog-walking couple had simply turned back the way they came, once they had come around the corner and seen the sketchy guys? Genuinely curious to hear the answer from the more streetwise Arfcommers, since I had thought it was better to not pass so close to person, or group of people who set your Spidey senses tingling, and avoid the situation altogether if at all possible. Far from an expert but have had one experience and heard one second-hand story where a threat was recognized and attempted to unass the area. I think it depends on how they initially perceived you, weak/easy, and how aggressive/experienced they are. Mine- I recognized the threat and escorted some females to their vehicle somewhat close to the threat. I walked back to my vehicle and they followed me and split up. One engaged me verbally while the other tried to sneak around behind me. Nothing happened since I was aware of both of them and put myself in a position that only one could get to me at a time. 2nd hand account, friend was hiking a pretty popular trail, saw a group of teens that seemed out of place with their clothing and turned around. They ended up mugging her at the entrance and stealing her phone. If you stumble upon someone suspicious waiting around in an area that you perceive as a threat, they likely choose that spot because they know the area and are comfortable in it. If they are indeed a threat they probably know the area better than you and know the best places to ambush and surprise you. |
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Posted: 3/11/2015 11:39:55 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
No need to take emergency services away from those that actually need it. If taking that ambulance ride keeps me out of jail or prison then *I need the squad*. 90% of squad runs are bullshit. I am a 20 year EMT. I can't think of a time that the outcome of a run suffered because a squad was on a run and unavailable. |
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Posted: 3/12/2015 12:22:21 AM EDT
[#29]
Action beats reaction.
If you have cause to act, then ACT. They have planned their attack, if you interrupt their plan, even by a half second, your odds of winning just went way up. Act may be displaying a firearm, preparing to draw it, drawing it, or drawing and shooting. You have to take the advantage away from the predator. Predators hate it when their plan gets disrupted. Act, before you get caught reacting. |
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Posted: 3/12/2015 1:24:34 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By John_Wayne777: I was at the Tactical Conference and I watched multiple middle-aged males go through a FOF scenario for the first time...and we were starting to look at medical intervention for one dude because we thought he was going to have a cardiac event and drop right there in front of us. I'm telling everybody this straight up: Unless you have a lot of experience with adrenaline and its effects on you, especially in life-or-death situations, do not fuck around. Your typical middle-aged dude that's pretty sedentary and a bit overweight can have a serious cardiac event that will kill in an event like this. I guarantee you that if such a person shows up at the ER complaining of chest pains and trouble breathing the docs there will not fuck around...they will act immediately because what I just described is a recipe for death. I've personally spent quality time in a parking lot trying in vain to pump life back into a dead guy's chest who dropped after far less physical stress than what I saw in those FOF scenarios...and everybody knew that shit was fake. I'm not a medical expert, but I've talked to a lot of folks who are about this and I'd advise everyone to err on the side of caution. As in with a wide margin on the side of caution. The symptoms you experience may be just the normal effect of a serious adrenaline dump...or it could be the early stages of something that will kill you. If you don't have a lot of experience with these sorts of things you don't know the difference...so take the ambulance ride. EDIT - I'll note something else that's been rattling around in my head for a while. At the same conference I was in the same room with a bunch of dudes who have been stabbed in a fucked-up-tangle or battle over a sidearm. or who have personally witnessed the aftermath of the same. Paul Sharp, who taught one of the blocks of instruction I attended on weapon retention/disarms, talked about an officer in his department who got into a fight with a suspect trying to take him into custody. Suspect tries to take the officer's gun, fight is on in earnest. The suspect, though, "bitch hits" with the sides of his fists. The officer finishes the arrest as backup arrives. Officer is winded, but says it's fine. He's a trained fighter so he's been winded before...except he gets worse. To the point where it's clear he's really struggling. The officer did not realize he had been stabbed several times with a small knife. Under the influence of adrenaline, wearing a dark uniform at night nobody could really tell he had several serious stab wounds until the guy passed out and damn near bled to death right in front of the other officers standing there. The officer here not knowing he'd sustained multiple stab wounds is consistent from what I've heard from other people who didn't realize they'd been stabbed until well after the fireworks were over. Do not believe that in the aftermath of a fight for your life you'll be able to accurately assess your medical state...especially if a blade was involved. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By John_Wayne777: Originally Posted By bcauz3y: I don't agree with the ambulance unless it's actually necessary. No need to take emergency services away from those that actually need it. I was at the Tactical Conference and I watched multiple middle-aged males go through a FOF scenario for the first time...and we were starting to look at medical intervention for one dude because we thought he was going to have a cardiac event and drop right there in front of us. I'm telling everybody this straight up: Unless you have a lot of experience with adrenaline and its effects on you, especially in life-or-death situations, do not fuck around. Your typical middle-aged dude that's pretty sedentary and a bit overweight can have a serious cardiac event that will kill in an event like this. I guarantee you that if such a person shows up at the ER complaining of chest pains and trouble breathing the docs there will not fuck around...they will act immediately because what I just described is a recipe for death. I've personally spent quality time in a parking lot trying in vain to pump life back into a dead guy's chest who dropped after far less physical stress than what I saw in those FOF scenarios...and everybody knew that shit was fake. I'm not a medical expert, but I've talked to a lot of folks who are about this and I'd advise everyone to err on the side of caution. As in with a wide margin on the side of caution. The symptoms you experience may be just the normal effect of a serious adrenaline dump...or it could be the early stages of something that will kill you. If you don't have a lot of experience with these sorts of things you don't know the difference...so take the ambulance ride. EDIT - I'll note something else that's been rattling around in my head for a while. At the same conference I was in the same room with a bunch of dudes who have been stabbed in a fucked-up-tangle or battle over a sidearm. or who have personally witnessed the aftermath of the same. Paul Sharp, who taught one of the blocks of instruction I attended on weapon retention/disarms, talked about an officer in his department who got into a fight with a suspect trying to take him into custody. Suspect tries to take the officer's gun, fight is on in earnest. The suspect, though, "bitch hits" with the sides of his fists. The officer finishes the arrest as backup arrives. Officer is winded, but says it's fine. He's a trained fighter so he's been winded before...except he gets worse. To the point where it's clear he's really struggling. The officer did not realize he had been stabbed several times with a small knife. Under the influence of adrenaline, wearing a dark uniform at night nobody could really tell he had several serious stab wounds until the guy passed out and damn near bled to death right in front of the other officers standing there. The officer here not knowing he'd sustained multiple stab wounds is consistent from what I've heard from other people who didn't realize they'd been stabbed until well after the fireworks were over. Do not believe that in the aftermath of a fight for your life you'll be able to accurately assess your medical state...especially if a blade was involved. As usual, you make some fantastic points man. Well said. I think I'll just go ahead and say "call that ambulance, sir", if you don't mind.  |
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Posted: 3/12/2015 10:20:53 PM EDT
[#31]
DO IT OR ELSE!!!
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Posted: 3/13/2015 1:49:49 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By John_Wayne777: DO IT OR ELSE!!!  |
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Posted: 3/13/2015 9:34:45 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
I'm gonna do it, but only so JW777 can't say "I told you so", after I write my AAR in GD. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bcauz3y:
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
DO IT OR ELSE!!! Hey wait a second...
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Posted: 3/13/2015 9:36:14 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blitz_308:
Hey wait a second... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Blitz_308:
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
DO IT OR ELSE!!! Hey wait a second... 
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Posted: 3/21/2015 12:11:37 PM EDT
[#35]
had a bad experience last night. Keep your head on a swivel.
I took the boy (14) to the mountains for 4wheeling and shooting for the last day of spring break. the ATV and trailer was covered in mud and when we got back to Tulsa I desperately needed to get them hosed off before I put them in the garage. I do not relish the thought of a Car Wash in Tulsa at 10PM but decided the Car Wash in between the Police Station and a busy Quick Trip might be the safest bet. We went over the QT to get change and noticed a somewhat well dressed black guy bumming money are the far side of the parking lot. I had my SW66 on as well. I was wearing a Mossy Oak long sleeve shirt unbuttoned, with the tail out. after about 10 minutes both the boy and I notice that Sugar Bear with walking our way roughly 100 yards from us and there are no others in the Car Wash. the boy gets behind me and hangs out are the far side of the bay when Sugar Bear disappears from view ( going well out of his way to do this, probably 40 yards out). we were both thinking he was going to flank us and show up at our backs. Sugar Bear pops up out of the blue 8 feet in front of me from my side of the car wash bay. he starts to talk I wave him out and told him to go away pretty firm. he stood there and gave the " I need a dollar for my hotel bill". I had already swept my shirt tail before he appeared in anticipation of his arrival and held my right arm down in front of the holster keeping it hidden. I told him to "GO" he stood there and looked at me dead on, took one step toward me and said "Listen, I nee....." I then gripped my revolver and started to draw and his eyes got huge.. held his hands up high and said " I"M GOOD....I'm GOOD" and walked away back peddling 2 steps and disappeared out of view as quickly as he appeared. they are artists at their craft of being predators. we were in a muddy 4x4, pulling nasty ATV's and wearing Camouflage clothing. I'm 5'10 225 with a bald head and beard, not exactly looking like someone dishing out soup in a homeless shelter. my son is almost 6ft. he was prepared to engage us both. my son and I were floored that he would stalk us over 100-150 yards away from his hangout with us looking like Rednecks. we both came to the conclusion : we were isolated. we were occupied in doing something. his behavior from the start of his stalk was spot on with everything I have ever seen in urban environments. they will use every possible tool to conceal themselves from your eyesight or line of sight. Potted plants, tree's in this case vacuum machines and he made an out of his way 40 -50 yard 180 deep out of our eyesight. the bottom line is that they will engage people who are bigger, stronger, more intimidating and show all the signs of being armed, if they think they can get the drop on them. |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 3/21/2015 2:49:04 PM EDT
[#36]
So much information to take into consideration.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/21/2015 4:25:39 PM EDT
[#37]
Great post. Thank you.
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Posted: 3/22/2015 3:37:37 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OKnativeson:
had a bad experience last night. Keep your head on a swivel. I took the boy (14) to the mountains for 4wheeling and shooting for the last day of spring break. the ATV and trailer was covered in mud and when we got back to Tulsa I desperately needed to get them hosed off before I put them in the garage. I do not relish the thought of a Car Wash in Tulsa at 10PM but decided the Car Wash in between the Police Station and a busy Quick Trip might be the safest bet. We went over the QT to get change and noticed a somewhat well dressed black guy bumming money are the far side of the parking lot. I had my SW66 on as well. I was wearing a Mossy Oak long sleeve shirt unbuttoned, with the tail out. after about 10 minutes both the boy and I notice that Sugar Bear with walking our way roughly 100 yards from us and there are no others in the Car Wash. the boy gets behind me and hangs out are the far side of the bay when Sugar Bear disappears from view ( going well out of his way to do this, probably 40 yards out). we were both thinking he was going to flank us and show up at our backs. Sugar Bear pops up out of the blue 8 feet in front of me from my side of the car wash bay. he starts to talk I wave him out and told him to go away pretty firm. he stood there and gave the " I need a dollar for my hotel bill". I had already swept my shirt tail before he appeared in anticipation of his arrival and held my right arm down in front of the holster keeping it hidden. I told him to "GO" he stood there and looked at me dead on, took one step toward me and said "Listen, I nee....." I then gripped my revolver and started to draw and his eyes got huge.. held his hands up high and said " I"M GOOD....I'm GOOD" and walked away back peddling 2 steps and disappeared out of view as quickly as he appeared. they are artists at their craft of being predators. we were in a muddy 4x4, pulling nasty ATV's and wearing Camouflage clothing. I'm 5'10 225 with a bald head and beard, not exactly looking like someone dishing out soup in a homeless shelter. my son is almost 6ft. he was prepared to engage us both. my son and I were floored that he would stalk us over 100-150 yards away from his hangout with us looking like Rednecks. we both came to the conclusion : we were isolated. we were occupied in doing something. his behavior from the start of his stalk was spot on with everything I have ever seen in urban environments. they will use every possible tool to conceal themselves from your eyesight or line of sight. Potted plants, tree's in this case vacuum machines and he made an out of his way 40 -50 yard 180 deep out of our eyesight. the bottom line is that they will engage people who are bigger, stronger, more intimidating and show all the signs of being armed, if they think they can get the drop on them. Everyone needs to remember the last line. Any attempt at sympathy, is a ploy to get you to drop your guard for a half second. Glad to hear you and your son are ok. The good thing from this is I bet your son has leaned a life lesson or two. |
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Posted: 3/22/2015 4:53:57 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nick1983:
Everyone needs to remember the last line. Any attempt at sympathy, is a ploy to get you to drop your guard for a half second. Glad to hear you and your son are ok. The good thing from this is I bet your son has leaned a life lesson or two. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nick1983:
Originally Posted By OKnativeson:
had a bad experience last night. Keep your head on a swivel. I took the boy (14) to the mountains for 4wheeling and shooting for the last day of spring break. the ATV and trailer was covered in mud and when we got back to Tulsa I desperately needed to get them hosed off before I put them in the garage. I do not relish the thought of a Car Wash in Tulsa at 10PM but decided the Car Wash in between the Police Station and a busy Quick Trip might be the safest bet. We went over the QT to get change and noticed a somewhat well dressed black guy bumming money are the far side of the parking lot. I had my SW66 on as well. I was wearing a Mossy Oak long sleeve shirt unbuttoned, with the tail out. after about 10 minutes both the boy and I notice that Sugar Bear with walking our way roughly 100 yards from us and there are no others in the Car Wash. the boy gets behind me and hangs out are the far side of the bay when Sugar Bear disappears from view ( going well out of his way to do this, probably 40 yards out). we were both thinking he was going to flank us and show up at our backs. Sugar Bear pops up out of the blue 8 feet in front of me from my side of the car wash bay. he starts to talk I wave him out and told him to go away pretty firm. he stood there and gave the " I need a dollar for my hotel bill". I had already swept my shirt tail before he appeared in anticipation of his arrival and held my right arm down in front of the holster keeping it hidden. I told him to "GO" he stood there and looked at me dead on, took one step toward me and said "Listen, I nee....." I then gripped my revolver and started to draw and his eyes got huge.. held his hands up high and said " I"M GOOD....I'm GOOD" and walked away back peddling 2 steps and disappeared out of view as quickly as he appeared. they are artists at their craft of being predators. we were in a muddy 4x4, pulling nasty ATV's and wearing Camouflage clothing. I'm 5'10 225 with a bald head and beard, not exactly looking like someone dishing out soup in a homeless shelter. my son is almost 6ft. he was prepared to engage us both. my son and I were floored that he would stalk us over 100-150 yards away from his hangout with us looking like Rednecks. we both came to the conclusion : we were isolated. we were occupied in doing something. his behavior from the start of his stalk was spot on with everything I have ever seen in urban environments. they will use every possible tool to conceal themselves from your eyesight or line of sight. Potted plants, tree's in this case vacuum machines and he made an out of his way 40 -50 yard 180 deep out of our eyesight. the bottom line is that they will engage people who are bigger, stronger, more intimidating and show all the signs of being armed, if they think they can get the drop on them. Everyone needs to remember the last line. Any attempt at sympathy, is a ploy to get you to drop your guard for a half second. Glad to hear you and your son are ok. The good thing from this is I bet your son has leaned a life lesson or two. I have taken my son on several Urban Safaris over the years. he is extremely street wise. in reviewing everything we both feel that he wasn't alone and was a "scout" for a crew. he disappeared into thin air after the fact and we both think he got into a car close by that probably had the rest of his homies. they will test anyone. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 3/25/2015 2:13:00 AM EDT
[#40]
Awesome post and replies. Thank you all.
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Posted: 3/26/2015 6:09:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Diesel_Maximus_2992]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OKnativeson: I have taken my son on several Urban Safaris over the years. he is extremely street wise. in reviewing everything we both feel that he wasn't alone and was a "scout" for a crew. he disappeared into thin air after the fact and we both think he got into a car close by that probably had the rest of his homies. they will test anyone. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By OKnativeson: Originally Posted By nick1983: Originally Posted By OKnativeson: had a bad experience last night. Keep your head on a swivel. I took the boy (14) to the mountains for 4wheeling and shooting for the last day of spring break. the ATV and trailer was covered in mud and when we got back to Tulsa I desperately needed to get them hosed off before I put them in the garage. I do not relish the thought of a Car Wash in Tulsa at 10PM but decided the Car Wash in between the Police Station and a busy Quick Trip might be the safest bet. We went over the QT to get change and noticed a somewhat well dressed black guy bumming money are the far side of the parking lot. I had my SW66 on as well. I was wearing a Mossy Oak long sleeve shirt unbuttoned, with the tail out. after about 10 minutes both the boy and I notice that Sugar Bear with walking our way roughly 100 yards from us and there are no others in the Car Wash. the boy gets behind me and hangs out are the far side of the bay when Sugar Bear disappears from view ( going well out of his way to do this, probably 40 yards out). we were both thinking he was going to flank us and show up at our backs. Sugar Bear pops up out of the blue 8 feet in front of me from my side of the car wash bay. he starts to talk I wave him out and told him to go away pretty firm. he stood there and gave the " I need a dollar for my hotel bill". I had already swept my shirt tail before he appeared in anticipation of his arrival and held my right arm down in front of the holster keeping it hidden. I told him to "GO" he stood there and looked at me dead on, took one step toward me and said "Listen, I nee....." I then gripped my revolver and started to draw and his eyes got huge.. held his hands up high and said " I"M GOOD....I'm GOOD" and walked away back peddling 2 steps and disappeared out of view as quickly as he appeared. they are artists at their craft of being predators. we were in a muddy 4x4, pulling nasty ATV's and wearing Camouflage clothing. I'm 5'10 225 with a bald head and beard, not exactly looking like someone dishing out soup in a homeless shelter. my son is almost 6ft. he was prepared to engage us both. my son and I were floored that he would stalk us over 100-150 yards away from his hangout with us looking like Rednecks. we both came to the conclusion : we were isolated. we were occupied in doing something. his behavior from the start of his stalk was spot on with everything I have ever seen in urban environments. they will use every possible tool to conceal themselves from your eyesight or line of sight. Potted plants, tree's in this case vacuum machines and he made an out of his way 40 -50 yard 180 deep out of our eyesight. the bottom line is that they will engage people who are bigger, stronger, more intimidating and show all the signs of being armed, if they think they can get the drop on them. Everyone needs to remember the last line. Any attempt at sympathy, is a ploy to get you to drop your guard for a half second. Glad to hear you and your son are ok. The good thing from this is I bet your son has leaned a life lesson or two. I have taken my son on several Urban Safaris over the years. he is extremely street wise. in reviewing everything we both feel that he wasn't alone and was a "scout" for a crew. he disappeared into thin air after the fact and we both think he got into a car close by that probably had the rest of his homies. they will test anyone. I work for a small company as the manager in the shipping area. We are required to have our exterior door unlocked durring working hours. I am 5'11 193 and one of my drivers (6'8 and almost 300) were working behind the counter when one a a 17year old walks in ghetto from head to to and claiming his bike was broken outside and was lookin "fur dem allen wurrches". We told him we did not have any (we did but not in plane site). He begins to get flustered claiming that because we had trucks we had to have wrenches. As he was in the process of the truck monologue I leaned slightly left to see around him and saw his buddy. Equally Thugged up holding what looked like a pipe behind his leg and scanning the street. I immediately went 0-60. Interrupted him with a strong "we don't have anything YOU WANT" while simultaneously and exaggeratedly shoved my left hand into my front pocket and got a good grip on my BUG (my boss is ok with my ccw as long as I do not reveal it to others, which is like preaching to the quire. So I did not go for the 45 on my hip because I did not want to blow my cover but still wanted my hand on A weapon and to make a statement at that moment) The kids eyes got HUGE. Looked down at my hand, which is what I wanted him to do, Stuttered a "fine, whatuurver, man", and backed out the door. I heard them beat feet like Mad down the street. To this day the driver not 3ft from me still has no idea I carry or how close I came to crushing primers. And yes the we outsized those kids by a good 50lbs and they still pushed for whatever they were after until It got serious |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 6:34:58 PM EDT
[#42]
we have been told this week that more than likely the guy we were accosted by was a scout for the crew in the car that had guns and they were most likely going to car jack me for my 4x4 and ATV's. once the scout had studied us up, they would have jacked us immediately or followed us to a suitable location. there have been numerous car jackings for trucks pulling ATV's in the past year by Ghetto Thugs and unfortunately in one case they fire shots to run the driver of the truck off the road and killed his 10 year old girl in the process.
the 5-0 talking to me said it could have very easily turned into a huge gunfight later on, if I had acted soft. now a friend of mine brought up an interesting take on this. he thinks by the Homies behavior of suddenly appearing that a lot of thugs have a sense that all white people are genuinely intimidated by any ghetto member. that by just gaining the element of surprise that his is enough for any non ghetto member to hand over wallets, cash or keys. we will keep an AR handy from now on when traveling with the ATV's. |
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Posted: 3/26/2015 7:35:15 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RocketmanOU:
Yup. Easy to misinterpret even really significant pain in the middle/aftermath of an adrenaline rush. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RocketmanOU:
Originally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
I don't agree with the ambulance unless it's actually necessary. No need to take emergency services away from those that actually need it. I was at the Tactical Conference and I watched multiple middle-aged males go through a FOF scenario for the first time...and we were starting to look at medical intervention for one dude because we thought he was going to have a cardiac event and drop right there in front of us. I'm telling everybody this straight up: Unless you have a lot of experience with adrenaline and its effects on you, especially in life-or-death situations, do not fuck around. Your typical middle-aged dude that's pretty sedentary and a bit overweight can have a serious cardiac event that will kill in an event like this. I guarantee you that if such a person shows up at the ER complaining of chest pains and trouble breathing the docs there will not fuck around...they will act immediately because what I just described is a recipe for death. I've personally spent quality time in a parking lot trying in vain to pump life back into a dead guy's chest who dropped after far less physical stress than what I saw in those FOF scenarios...and everybody knew that shit was fake. I'm not a medical expert, but I've talked to a lot of folks who are about this and I'd advise everyone to err on the side of caution. As in with a wide margin on the side of caution. The symptoms you experience may be just the normal effect of a serious adrenaline dump...or it could be the early stages of something that will kill you. If you don't have a lot of experience with these sorts of things you don't know the difference...so take the ambulance ride. EDIT - I'll note something else that's been rattling around in my head for a while. At the same conference I was in the same room with a bunch of dudes who have been stabbed in a fucked-up-tangle or battle over a sidearm. or who have personally witnessed the aftermath of the same. Paul Sharp, who taught one of the blocks of instruction I attended on weapon retention/disarms, talked about an officer in his department who got into a fight with a suspect trying to take him into custody. Suspect tries to take the officer's gun, fight is on in earnest. The suspect, though, "bitch hits" with the sides of his fists. The officer finishes the arrest as backup arrives. Officer is winded, but says it's fine. He's a trained fighter so he's been winded before...except he gets worse. To the point where it's clear he's really struggling. The officer did not realize he had been stabbed several times with a small knife. Under the influence of adrenaline, wearing a dark uniform at night nobody could really tell he had several serious stab wounds until the guy passed out and damn near bled to death right in front of the other officers standing there. The officer here not knowing he'd sustained multiple stab wounds is consistent from what I've heard from other people who didn't realize they'd been stabbed until well after the fireworks were over. Do not believe that in the aftermath of a fight for your life you'll be able to accurately assess your medical state...especially if a blade was involved. Yup. Easy to misinterpret even really significant pain in the middle/aftermath of an adrenaline rush. Ronald Reagan shooting |
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Posted: 4/11/2015 11:49:32 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By John_Wayne777:
I'm not an expert...but I've talked to a shitload of people who are and I say this: The vast majority of people who get stabbed had no idea they were in a knife fight until they'd been stabbed. Often they have no idea even after the attack is over. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By John_Wayne777:
Originally Posted By macman37:
Dang, great reminder JW_777... knives are one thing nobody wants to mess with, and worse if you're involved in a knife fight but don't know it. I'm not an expert...but I've talked to a shitload of people who are and I say this: The vast majority of people who get stabbed had no idea they were in a knife fight until they'd been stabbed. Often they have no idea even after the attack is over. most of the stabbing victims I have worked on in ER have all made comments to the effect " I never felt it or I didn't know I was stabbed until I saw that I was bleeding or until someone told me I was bleeding". most have just said they thought they had been hit by a fist or something else. truly terrifying. always look at someone's hands, then eyes. |
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Posted: 4/12/2015 10:03:54 AM EDT
[#45]
I read this last year and decided to read it again myself today. I have passed it on to friends and family who carry, and more so the one's that don't.
Thanks again for a great post. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 10:22:13 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheGrayMan:
Here is a guy who "saw G coming," but lacked the will or means to do anything about it. http://youtu.be/ttF9nabxvTgWhat a dumb fuck. It is not so bad if it would end like that all the time but he could have been beat or killed. So many options to use and he just stood there. |
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BHR
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Posted: 5/1/2015 10:41:35 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TEXASROOTERSBROTHER:
What a dumb fuck. It is not so bad if it would end like that all the time but he could have been beat or killed. So many options to use and he just stood there. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TEXASROOTERSBROTHER:
Originally Posted By TheGrayMan:
Here is a guy who "saw G coming," but lacked the will or means to do anything about it. http://youtu.be/ttF9nabxvTgWhat a dumb fuck. It is not so bad if it would end like that all the time but he could have been beat or killed. So many options to use and he just stood there. He was afraid, which is natural I suppose. Everyone was all nervous smiles. One has to be mentally prepared and equipped to fight at a moment's notice. And look like a hard target. |
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Posted: 5/8/2015 5:35:06 PM EDT
[#48]
Back to the top.
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Posted: 5/18/2015 11:19:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Pro_Patria_431]
[#49]
Good story, but doesn't belong here.
Archived thread here originally from Glocktalk. Edit to fix my lack of verification. |
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Posted: 5/18/2015 11:24:01 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryI've seen that one in quite a few places on the internet. Unlike other stories, though, there is a notable lack of any new articles or proof. Still a great story.
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