None of us have treated Dudley unfairly. Every single post that's critical of him was in direct and pointed response from his own hyperbole, lies, or insults.



He did this entirely to himself.



Do you understand that? I take it you've read the entire thread?



 

Agreed.  We must maintain the moral high ground in this fight, that includes truth in our advertising as such.  Our enemies have distorted the truth, created lies, and deceived the public and our elected officials enough.  They also accuse us of the very same thing.   We cannot give them the ammunition to use against us which Mr. Brown has done gleefully and without remorse.  This is a problem.  He doesn't understand it or refuses to acknowledge it.  Either way, he's helping our enemies by doing it.  It makes all of our efforts that much more difficult and it makes us a laughing stock.  

His attitude and demeanor on this thread has left me wondering just what the hell he's up to.  He won't address my concerns, or those of others here.  He side stepped the issue and instead acted like a child in his responses trying to call me out and others.  When that didn't work, he childishly put me on ignore in the hopes I'd go away.  If he'd just apologized and stopped using these disgraceful tactics, this thread would have died on page 1.  Instead, he's dug a hole to China.

I'm sure he's done good things in the past but that doesn't excuse what he's doing now.

That tells me pretty much all I need to know. NAGR says that they "work tightly with" groups that insult, lie about, spit at (literally), block, and then take credit for, the efforts of those who are working (and succeeding) at incremental gun rights improvements. They are an "all or nothing, black or white, for-us or against-us" group.

In addition to what others have said, I'd like to point out that Mr. Brown's "the end is nigh!" deceptive approach to fundraising, doesn't stop with fundraising either.  His "alerts" concerning various gun legislation end up creating confusion and lack of coordination amongst gun owners who aren't able to tell which threats are realistic immediate ones that need attention and which threats are distant at best.  H.R. 45 is a perfect example. Same with the UN Small Arms Treaty.  That does hurt those of us who support the Second Amendment, and if Dudley Brown is one of those people, I can't imagine why he would want to do that.

Anybody who has been around gun boards long enough knows enough members who were highly regarded "good guys" who had been part of those communities for years who end up outright scamming other pro-Second people in a variety of schemes. The EE board here is chock full of them.  And there are a lot of questions I've got about the organization. It has been around since 2002 but only donated to candidates in 2010?  Based on their news releases, they are in a legal fight every other day, yet they don't have any legal expenses to report?  Same thing with "insider reports" from D.C. - to read those reports you'd think they had an army of lobbyists; but they don't have a single registered lobbyist and again, they don't appear to be paying any law firms for that type of work.  Dudley Brown may not be a scammer; but his modus operandi is close enough to it that I am going to steer clear all the same.

Guess what I got in todays mail?

A "survey" to send to Rand Paul c/o National Association of Gun Rights.
The "survey" was about the UN Small Arms treaty that NAGR and Mr Paul seem to believe will pass as law and supercede the Constiution.

Of course its worded in such a way as to state that by signing the "survey" that you stand with NAGR in its battle against the forces of evil and such.

(and yes, there are checkboxes to indicate the amount of $$$ you are willing to donate)

I filled out an "edited" version of the survey and mentioned Arfcom as the reason NAGR would never get a single dollar from me.

Oh, and I'm not putting a stamp on it either. I'll let Dudley pay the postage.

In one of his posts here, Mr. Brown proclaimed his alliance with Iowa Gun Owners (IGO).  May I be the first to say here that several of the points that "TruthAndFreedom" makes above about NAGR apply equally to IGO.  Not only do these groups tend to take credit for the accomplishments of others - even after having bashed those others as traitors to the cause and their legislative proposals as fatally flawed compromises - but they most often become actual obstacles to real progress in enlarging the recognition and protection of our firearms and self-defense rights.  They attack and threaten would-be friends as viciously as true enemies.  No wonder they have no legislative successes.

Legislators who might have been somewhat cowed by these super-aggressive "tactics" at first have begun to realize that they are paper tigers.  Their donor base may be wising up, too, judging from the greatly increased frequency (and corresponding sloppiness) of their fundraising appeals.

BTW, I see that Mr. Brown and NAGR are using the term "Constitutional Carry" to refer to Alaska/Arizona style legislation.  I'm not sure about NAGR, but IGO always called this "Real Right to Carry" when they were opposing the great new "shall issue" law that Iowa Carry and NRA pushed through in Iowa.  It wasn't until NRA popularized the name "Constitutional Carry" that IGO started using it.  Those that can do.  Those that can't, rant.

it is hard for me to express how happy i am this guy has been called out.  

we, as a 2A community, face a significant threat.  POSERS from the FRINGE...  NAGR has gained some tiny momentum for themselves, but it is important for us to understand how and why.  

****

the WHO - the fringe group rolls up, fills a niche in the market by latching onto a couple senators or house reps here and there.  so they mention them by name in this thread or their outgoing communications.  ever notice they never mention a governor?  nope.  they hold no clout with any politician of significance and never will.  if you were able to talk to the all the reps and senators from capitol hill, and ask "who is RMGO?" most wouldn't know.  most don't care.  now ask them if they've ever heard of "NRA" and the nods go vertical...  the fringe has managed to put together a can't miss scenario to extract money from you.  the posers gets nothing done, but send out hate and discontent emails like they're going out of style...  "the sky is falling, oh, and send me money" is all you get from them.  do they actually accomplish anything?  nope.  lots of bawling like a bottle calf.  no accomplishments.  

the WHAT - these types of groups exist to suck membership from NRA.  they know they'll never gain any real traction, but that doesn't matter as long as the checks keep rolling in.  they'll cash in on your outrage of some current event, send you a timely correspondence in the hopes to capitalize on your disgust, and extract money from you.  90% of the people reading this won't send them any.  maybe less, but unfortunately some do.  these types of orgs boob nonstop about moves NRA makes, but if you cut to the thick of it, they only really want to work with or endorse extremely right conservative republicans.  ...and nobody else.  NRA, on the other hand has a simple stance.  they don't care if you're R, D, I, L, Z or whatever.  if you back gun rights, they'll back you.  after all, NRA is a single issue advocacy group.  the others tend to see things from a candidate position rather than a issue perspedtive, and if joe blow democrat rep votes pro gun day and night but is also votes pro abortion, they burn them to the stake.  there are cases i've watched first hand on how democrats have voted 100% with these groups, then get labeled "gun grabbers" or "anti gun" at the next election cycle.  

the HOW - so when you build a business off the backs of others hard work and the facts show you never really have any TRUE accomplishments of your own, what can you do to keep the revenue stream coming in?  shock and outrage.  if you read the emails they all send, they are contorted, warped, tiny moments in history (recent or long past) they use to get you fired up.  hopefully in your heightened emotion you'll send them some scratch.  unfortunately some do.  enough to keep these folks living very well apparently...  

the game plan is quite simple.  follow NRA around and utilize three and only three moves from the tiny playbook.  

-play 1 - criticize NRA and/or their state affiliates nonstop about what they do, who they work with, and how they do it.  in a nutshell, they bitch about the forward motion they are making as 'too little' or 'doesn't go far enough' all the while knowing you can't build rome in a single day...
-play 2 - when NRA has a win, they claim full credit.  they show up at the state house at bill signing time to get their pictures taken and then send out emails with the pics saying "this victory for gun rights wasn't possible without you, the membership of {insert the name they operate under that day}, and your constant help as we pushed the gun grabbers back and forced republicans who pledged their support into this position.  you see, without {insert name} these squishy republicans would've run from action, blah, blah, blah..."
-play 3 - when NRA loses or doesn't make the forward motion they wanted, they whine like mules about about how their compromising beliefs got them nowhere or how the {insert name}'s bill would have been hoisted into victory if more people would have donated money and given support.

they all subscribe to "Confrontational Politics" - a book by former senator, H.L. Richardson.  they use it as their own little bible.

the WHY - their tactics?  shock, awe, no compromise, all or nothing, etc.  their result?  nothing.  again, they claim others credit.  but more importantly, if you're in a position to constantly lose since you want the world handed to you on a platter, then everything will fall short, which gives you eternal bitching rights and provides continual opportunity for funding based on critique... brilliant?  maybe.  unethical and immoral?  damn straight...

****

if it were me and this thread is going to get a sticky, i'd make copies of the pages you all linked to and host them.  these types of groups have a way of their web pages and various things folks have cited disappearing over time.  unfortunately these gypsies seem to linger, so it is important this information doesn't get lost with a server wipe...  

i've been scammed by these guys before, and don't want to see others get sucked in.  

one last point of discussion...  if you'll notice, these so called gun groups primarily concentrate on 'constitutional carry' which NRA coined.  before the posers stole "constitutional carry" as their nomenclature, it was referred to as 'permitless carry' or 'alaska carry' by the fringe.  fact:  NRA and only NRA accomplished those pieces of legislation in any state. yet the fringe gun groups roll up, attempt to take credit, and then other state's fringe gun groups claim their affiliates did it.  i've listened to it in person, first hand, from these posers...

another trend you'll see is the quiet, and sometimes hard to link, forming of other fringe groups within other communities.  it isn't uncommon for these fringe self appointed leaders, having had much success sucking membership and funding from NRA, to set up fringe groups of other well grounded groups.  you're seeing some of these entrepreneurs start small pro life groups, small pro traditional marriage groups, etc.  all where current, established, and healthy groups of this kind are in place.  why?  so they can pick up stragglers, complain that the big groups aren't getting anything done, extract funding, and live with a big house and new tahoe in the driveway...  in many cases you're going to have to search hard, but most of the fed and state reporting for this stuff is a matter of public record.  if you dig hard enough you'll find the facts...

NAGR outright lying to their membership in outgoing emails should be no shock to our community.  the genuine shock is the number of people who don't know they're lying...  that is within your power to change.  it is done by giving your time, your passion, and your membership to orgs with integrity and a track record to back it.  that is something few can boast.  it is also done by letting people know the facts about this...  

i'm not sure if we can wipe clean this tarnish from our community.  frankly, it is a real PITA...  it slows us down from the real mission, and distracts us from our common goals.  however, i can't in good faith, see people routinely scammed, as the blame falls on our community, not the actual snake oil salesmen all too often.

That's a hell of a first post Swamp_Fox50.

Good stuff, thanks.  

Still going huh?  

Well, I have some more questions.  

1.  Just how many organizations does Mr. Dudley lobby for?  

2. Is any money passed from one organization to another (apparently he  funds gun money to tax groups) if so, why? Is NAGR not a single-issue organization?

3.  How much money goes to Mr. Dudley personally?  Is his salary or office space paid for out of the total? Any of his family listed as employees/consultants?  

This whole thing stinks of a scam/money laundering scheme.  I wonder if Mr Dudley is on the radar of the local IRS or state comptroller's office.

I'm gonna go ahead and unsubscribe from my RMGO email.

Good things happened at the State level, but this behavior I cannot abide.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

nagr being questioned about hit piece robo calls.  as an iowan, i can tell you my phones were under seige from these types of hits and smears days prior to caucus:

http://www.boston.com/Boston/politicalintelligence/2012/01/pro-gun-group-goes-after-rick-santorum-for-not-completing-its-survey-launches-robo-calls/nK0OoLLYwk1tcZWJWclN4H/index.html

this report, while short, should tell you plenty.

another guy too look into is larry pratt at goa:

wiki for larry pratt

take a look under "political organizations" and do some looking around via google...  

seems like there is money to be made from controversy, huh?  don't get sucked in folks...

Not sending out a survey and then attacking a politician for not responding to it is pretty scummy, if that's really what happened.

Although I'm guessing what may have happened is some volunteer opened up the letter and said "NAGR?  Who the heck is that?" and pitched it.  The same thing would happen if I sent them a survey for DERP (Democrats Endevouring for Responsible Patriotism).  Regardless of whether it was sent or not I'm sure campaigns gets all kinds of crap from no-name organizations and ignore a lot of it.

It's spreading...  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2830510/posts

I see nothing inconsistent or of concern there...



 

He has made a career of creating lobbying organizations - with himself in charge - for issues where a larger, already established organization already existed.  He then paints the latter as "compromising" and what not, and siphons off their funding and membership by attracting the fringe elements who exist in ANY organization, who are never happy with the larger consensus.

GOA is just his first and most successful.

You see the same thing on the left.  For every PETA, Greenpeace, etc. there are smaller, less effective, organizations that eat their own, and where the money trail usually leads to one person who is in an unelected person and runs the organization as a personal fiefdom.

And? "Free marketplace" and all that... Competition is good.





 

No one is selling dish soap here.  If you cannot understand that a scammer sucking donations off of legitimate  organizations is a problem, then there is no hope for you.

I hear that a lot about them, but every time there is a pro-gun case being run up, an anti-gun bill being shouted down, or a consistent presence on talk shows opposing the anti's, the GOA always seems to have a hand in it. From amicus briefs to letter writing campaigns. For a group that is an 1/8th the size of the NRA, they sure do seem to get around. The GOA even jumped on the Heller bandwagon long before the NRA did. Heck, the NRA didn't even want the Heller case to go forward since it already had its own case in the works that would have done even less than Heller.





In fact, if it wasn't for the "no compromise" types at Cato, SAF, and GOA, Heller might not have been as big an issue as it was. The point is arguable, of course, but I still don't see the big fuss over a "get both"/"get as many as you can" approach to pro-gun organizations.





I'm an NRA Life Member, a GOA life member, and I have contributed off and on to the SAF and JPFO. It's too important an issue to leave all your eggs in one basket.





 

http://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/1439167346



 

No shit.  I'd be willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt, at least to come here and *properly* defend themselves.  This guy has done nothing but a disservice to himself and convinced me to never spend a dime with him.

 

When you unsubscribe from the NAGR e-mail thing, it gives you a chance to tell them why. I linked to this thread and told them they'd had their Zumbo moment and to take me off the list.



"Invisible hand of the marketplace" at work.



 

Quoted, so our friend may read.

 

I'm not nitpicking when I say that NAGR is the funniest and most inept acronym ever.

Period.

One of my favorite things to do when NAGR, GOA RMGO is screaming no compromise the NRA sucks they fucked us in 86 and 94 is point out that GOA was formed in 1976 IIRC.

Latest email from Dudley...  Posted without comment for your input.

F&F led to the death of three border patrol agents??

agent Terry and who else?

One of the guns at Jaime Avila's murder scene was a Fast & Furious gun IIRC, though Avila was not a Border Patrol agent.

As for NAGR jumping on to Fast & Furious now, I just did a quick Google search and the earliest alert/news/etc. I could find from them relating to Fast and Furious was from September 2011.  So they are about 10 months behind Sipsey Street Irregulars and 9 months behind CBS News in reporting on this particular piece of gun news.  If I was looking for a Chicken-Little, no-compromise, gun rights group to represent me.  I think I'd like one that was a little faster with the relevant stories.

Well put... Bravo!

I don't always like the marketing spam that the NRA sends me, the seemingly dirty, underhanded political tactics they sometimes employ, or even the "scare tactic" letters I get from the NRA that resemble the letter that the OP posted from NGR.  But by God.... the NRA gets the job done.   And, I will continue to contribute to their organization.

The election is heating up and this needs to be bumped before people get duped by Dudley.  He's apparently trashing Newt as seen on another thread.

lying for money = theft, even in this day and age.

Link it.





 

That's my point. He's not BP.  It's not hard to find out who has been verified to have been killed with ATF's guns.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1280049_Newt_Gingrich_to_end_all_import_bans_on_firearms_.html&page=1

See page 4

nothing new, but one of dudley's many 'pay my mortgage folks' groups is in trouble again.  prepare for a massive push for funding and membership:

http://www.pagunblog.com/2012/06/25/rmgo-loses-its-tax-exempt-status/

asshat....

Yes they are.

If JD Kinman is a member here, I raise my glass to you, sir!

This

If only his attorney hadn't told him to be so snarky on his last IRS form...

This

it is funny you remarked like that...  this guy is counting on every single person who read this thread and passed the information on to others to literally forget about it.  the only way to be rid of a gypsy is to keep them out and lock them out.  if you read down through his emails, he makes grand claims routinely, but then manages to embellish on his own bullshit when he recycles his garbage every few years.  for dumley brownstains, the old tricks are apparently the best tricks.

don't forget this guy is a taker.  no more, no less.

What's the deal with Larry Pratt?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

They've been scamming for quite some time.
Very anti-NRA

http://www.nagr.org/

I never got my Very Sorry Song or a good Thunderdome.    

Give me a quarter or I'll tell Mom!

Can we get this pinned up top?  This guy sends email after email with his lies and he needs to be stopped!