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 the444shooter 
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Joined: Apr 2003  TX, USA
 Posts: 112 Feedback: 100% (7) |
Posted: 11/30/2011 10:45:25 PM
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT As far as the 'felony' sale to another person is concerned, does anyone know what's considered an acceptable amount of time( in the law's eyes) to keep a firearm before selling it to another individual? |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:46:36 PM
The ATF visited his house? To check on multiple rifle purchases?
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RDP
You need a hug
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:46:53 PM
Sell them all for a profit? Or did you sell them to a person that can't legally have them? Or did you sell them to a mule?
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Furyataurus
Be a Fountain, not a drain
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:46:59 PM
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 10:47:51 PM by Furyataurus]
Originally Posted By the444shooter:
ATF was notified per new law regarding border states sales of multiple rifles after my friend bought a couple WASR-10s. ATF knocks on his door tonight to check and see if he still has them. Their reason for suspicion? 'it's holiday time and people do a lot of traveling so it's possible he could be taking them farther south.' he shows them that the guns are still in his possession, along with his other firearms he's purchased legally and they leave, satisfied. However, one of them tells him it would be a felony if he HAD sold them to somebody else. Kinda scary to me that they are following up on these purchases. As far as the 'felony' sale to another person is concerned, does anyone know what's considered an acceptable amount of time( in the law's eyes) to keep a firearm before selling it to another individual? 1 second after you paid for it. Buyers remorse happens all the time.  |
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iluvguns
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:47:10 PM
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 10:48:23 PM by iluvguns]
shoulda told them to fuck off
eta: or tell them he aleady sold them to the other ATF agents that came to his door  |
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Got_Guns
Confirmed Pre-Ban
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:47:54 PM
They probably wanted to make sure he wasn't cutting in on there business
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:48:40 PM
I would tell them to go check on the weapons of their bosses since they have a demonstrated pattern of turning up in Mexico.
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itsARanchrifle
Home of tier 1 ranch goats and cattle.
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:48:54 PM
In.
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:49:16 PM
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 10:52:57 PM by the444shooter]
Yes. Knocked on his door, announced that they were ATF (don't know how they were dressed) and asked about his purchase and whether he had any other guns.
ETA, they thanked him for his cooperation and went on their way with not so much as a peep otherwise. Just disconcerting that they seem to think that you still can't legally sell them to someone else. These are the people that are 'in charge' *facepalm* |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:49:35 PM
Originally Posted By iluvguns:
shoulda told them to fuck off This. I would have contacted my attorney before they came through the door. No warrant, go away. |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:50:08 PM
Do NOT invite the ATF inside to view your collection EVER! Tell them you will meet them at their office with your attorney present. OP's friend sounds like he is lucky at this point if nothing more comes of this.
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:50:50 PM
Did they have a warrant?
No warrant, no talk. |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:51:02 PM
Originally Posted By mustangduckk:
Originally Posted By iluvguns:
shoulda told them to fuck off This. I would have contacted my attorney before they came through the door. No warrant, go away. For real. Sounds like an investigation for which they have no probable cause or reasonable suspicion. |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:51:03 PM
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 10:53:33 PM by GetDown_M4A3]
Allowing people into your home without a warrant to look at firearms. Smart. No possible chance they'd lie about being ATF, or have fake ID, right?
I always challenge people even after they've shown ID, because if I've never seen that agency's ID before, how would I know it's real? Besides the warrant issue, I'd have called the ATF to verify their identity. I've had people lie about their ID/agency twice when I've been responsible for security somewhere (military and civilian), and my being vigillant about checking won each time. |
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MNJack762
Sucks at internet ranting.
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:51:04 PM
Originally Posted By iluvguns:
tell them he aleady sold them to the other ATF agents that came to his door I like this answer the best.  |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:51:10 PM
Always Think "Fuck-off"
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Bladeswitcher
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:51:21 PM
Originally Posted By the444shooter:
ATF was notified per new law regarding border states sales of multiple rifles after my friend bought a couple WASR-10s. ATF knocks on his door tonight to check and see if he still has them. Their reason for suspicion? 'it's holiday time and people do a lot of traveling so it's possible he could be taking them farther south.' he shows them that the guns are still in his possession, along with his other firearms he's purchased legally and they leave, satisfied. However, one of them tells him it would be a felony if he HAD sold them to somebody else. Kinda scary to me that they are following up on these purchases. As far as the 'felony' sale to another person is concerned, does anyone know what's considered an acceptable amount of time( in the law's eyes) to keep a firearm before selling it to another individual? The agent was talking out of his ass. It is not illegal to sell a gun. It is illegal to "engage in business" without a license. The BATFE offers a somewhat informative interpretation that specifically says you can sell guns as a hobby and that you may sell all or part of your collection. The term “engaged in the business,” as applicable to a firearms dealer, is defined as a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms.
[27 CFR 478.11] |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:51:33 PM
Originally Posted By ArchInfidel:
Do NOT invite the ATF inside to view your collection EVER! Tell them you will meet them at their office with your attorney present. OP's friend sounds like he is lucky at this point if nothing more comes of this. For what? Legally buying firearms? |
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OrARGB
Shall not be infringed!
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:51:34 PM
Originally Posted By mustangduckk:
Originally Posted By iluvguns:
shoulda told them to fuck off This. I would have contacted my attorney before they came through the door. No warrant, go away. This again... |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:53:11 PM
Originally Posted By joedirt1977:
Originally Posted By ArchInfidel:
Do NOT invite the ATF inside to view your collection EVER! Tell them you will meet them at their office with your attorney present. OP's friend sounds like he is lucky at this point if nothing more comes of this. For what? Legally buying firearms? We live in interesting times. |
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resq2106
Detent Launch World Record Holder
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:53:44 PM
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 10:56:28 PM by resq2106]
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN.
ETA: Paging nolo_contendere! |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:55:07 PM
This obviously took him by surprise, so I think he let them in because his guard was down
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thedoctors308
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:56:00 PM
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant? No warrant, no talk. Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion. But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it. However, it won't end the way you think. |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:56:43 PM
Buy one of these for your buddy for Christmas/Hanukkah/Festivus/Whatever.
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:58:18 PM
Can't say that I wouldn't have let them in either––I guess it's the 'respect people in official positions' part of my brain.
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Chris0013
USMC 0311; Duh, Grunt
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:58:30 PM
Originally Posted By Cnacki77:
Buy one of these for your buddy for Christmas/Hanukkah/Festivus/Whatever. Exactly. |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 10:59:26 PM
I might have showed them the WASRs to make them go away but he shouldn't have showed them anything else. And you probably want to show the rifles at the door rather then have them come in and see things they may not need to see.
For those of you that say lawyer up ? Is it really worth it ? And refusing to show them, means they may raid with a warrant. Not worth the BS. I doubt they are really interested in him, if its all as you say just over buying a few rifles. Show the rifles, they go away and forget. You don't want them interested in you. |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:00:49 PM
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant? No warrant, no talk. Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion. But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it. However, it won't end the way you think. Exactly. Sometimes satisfying them makes it go away and not make a mountain out of a molehouse. They shouldn't have been there.. But they were. Do what you can to make them go away and forget about it which is probably what they did. |
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Renegade13B
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:02:00 PM
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 11:03:10 PM by Renegade13B]
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant? No warrant, no talk. Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion. But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it. However, it won't end the way you think. How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF? And when did exercising constitutionally guaranteed rights become being confrontational? |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:02:05 PM
Originally Posted By resq2106:
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN. ETA: Paging nolo_contendere! You don't want to buy and sell too often and appear to be dealing with a license. Occasional sales are fine. I'd like to know the context of the comment about selling them being illegal. Perhaps they might if he'd sold them as part of a straw purchase, or possibly illegal dealing otherwise selling them would be legal. |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:03:21 PM
Originally Posted By Renegade13B:
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant? No warrant, no talk. Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion. But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it. However, it won't end the way you think. How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF? Who knows ? Maybe nothing happens, maybe something does. But best case you get a note if your file about not cooperating and possibly engaging in funny business rather than a note saying they checked up and you still had the rifles ( that they already knew you had, so no worries there ) |
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Ghetto
Still alive.
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:03:31 PM
What part of TX?
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thedoctors308
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:03:34 PM
Originally Posted By Renegade13B:
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant? No warrant, no talk. Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion. But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it. However, it won't end the way you think. How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF? It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile. |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:03:38 PM
Originally Posted By resq2106:
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN. ETA: Paging nolo_contendere! Tell that to this guy |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:04:29 PM
somebodys dog is going to get shot
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:04:50 PM
Originally Posted By resq2106:
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN. ETA: Paging nolo_contendere! I don't play an ATF agent on TV, but I don't think so. You have to intend on keeping the guns you purchase for personal use or collection. If you buy with the intent to resell, that isn't personal anymore, that's a business intent. |
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LockingBlock
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:05:23 PM
[Last Edit: 11/30/2011 11:05:42 PM by LockingBlock]
Normal, they do it all the time.
He fit the profile of criminal behavior...checked...he is good to go. Had he done the F U!!! JBTs!!! Yeah...moving towards the suspect side of life |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:05:24 PM
My ffl sed he never got that letter from the ATF so he's not doing it. Hopefully that's still the case.
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:06:10 PM
Originally Posted By 74AKZ:
Originally Posted By resq2106:
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN. ETA: Paging nolo_contendere! You don't want to buy and sell too often and appear to be dealing with a license. Occasional sales are fine. I'd like to know the context of the comment about selling them being illegal. Perhaps they might if he'd sold them as part of a straw purchase, or possibly illegal dealing otherwise selling them would be legal. From how he told it to me it sounded like a blanket statement about selling to another individual. By all means, lawyers and people who have played lawyers on tv, let me know what you think! |
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Bladeswitcher
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:07:00 PM
Originally Posted By resq2106:
. . . As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN. Damn right. That agent needed to be told right up front that his inquiry would be the subject of a phone call to your Congressman's office AND THE NRA the very next morning . . . |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:07:37 PM
Originally Posted By Ghetto:
What part of TX? DFW area |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:08:01 PM
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant? No warrant, no talk. Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion. But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it. However, it won't end the way you think. Or he could tell them to fuck off with similar results. |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:09:01 PM
Originally Posted By 74AKZ:
And refusing to show them, means they may raid with a warrant. 
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echofivekilo
competitor
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:09:05 PM
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Renegade13B:
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant? No warrant, no talk. Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion. But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it. However, it won't end the way you think. How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF? It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile. Which isn't a big deal if you haven't done anything wrong, correct? |
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Bladeswitcher
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:09:09 PM
Originally Posted By Gator:
Originally Posted By resq2106:
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN. ETA: Paging nolo_contendere! I don't play an ATF agent on TV, but I don't think so. You have to intend on keeping the guns you purchase for personal use or collection. If you buy with the intent to resell, that isn't personal anymore, that's a business intent. Your intent at the time of purchase is all that matters. If you change your mind about a gun the next day then it's perfectly OK to "enhance your collection." I don't believe the BATFE is equipped with a mind-reading intent detector yet. |
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Renegade13B
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:10:21 PM
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Renegade13B:
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Originally Posted By Der_Hans:
Did they have a warrant? No warrant, no talk. Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion. But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it. However, it won't end the way you think. How is it going to end if you choose not to talk to the ATF? It will seem suspicious and your name goes into the "further review" pile. And? How is that any different from letting them see the rifles? (assuming you aren't involved in any criminal activity) |
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Lon_Moer
I've seen the future - I can't afford it.
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:11:12 PM
Except for some .22's, I've never actually purchased a complete/factory rifle.
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:11:12 PM
Originally Posted By the444shooter:
Originally Posted By 74AKZ:
Originally Posted By resq2106:
I think you can buy guns and sell them all day long as long as the people you sell them to are not prohibitted from owning them. If they are prohibitted, it's a "straw purchase". As far as asking about other guns he owns, I would be making a call to my congressman's office RFN. ETA: Paging nolo_contendere! You don't want to buy and sell too often and appear to be dealing with a license. Occasional sales are fine. I'd like to know the context of the comment about selling them being illegal. Perhaps they might if he'd sold them as part of a straw purchase, or possibly illegal dealing otherwise selling them would be legal. From how he told it to me it sounded like a blanket statement about selling to another individual. By all means, lawyers and people who have played lawyers on tv, let me know what you think! There is no law prohibiting a sale such as you describe. I bet if you call ATF and ask they will agree. |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:12:03 PM
Originally Posted By DontShootMyDog:
Originally Posted By 74AKZ:
And refusing to show them, means they may raid with a warrant.
Didn't say it was likely, but its certainly possible. People have gotten in trouble for less. More like its as doctor308 said, you'll be marked for further review and scrutiny. Who wants that ? |
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:12:32 PM
When I was building my Mosin Nagant coffee table, the State Police actually contacted the FFL to get my phone number and "additional information".
I was really hoping the person from State was a cute chick just trying to find out how awesome I am....but, alas, I never heard anything more of it. I guess when they Googled the model of the rifles, they had a big laugh, realizing it probably wasn't part of some elaborate gun-running scheme. |
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bobbitybobbity
Arfcom's own STD
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Posted: 11/30/2011 11:13:26 PM
Originally Posted By 74AKZ: Originally Posted By thedoctors308: Originally Posted By Der_Hans: Did they have a warrant? No warrant, no talk. Or you could talk quick and allay suspicion. But by all means, if you are hell bent on seeking a confrontation with LE go for it. However, it won't end the way you think. Exactly. Sometimes satisfying them makes it go away and not make a mountain out of a molehouse. They shouldn't have been there.. But they were. Do what you can to make them go away and forget about it which is probably what they did. Sorry to burst your bubble, but, they did not go away and forget it. There will be a written record of all that transpired, to include impressions, suspicions, and a diagram of the home. Rest assured, any time, EVERY time you are contacted by a LEO, you are wearing a littl;e sign on your head that says "suspect". Maybe not by the contacting officer, maybe not that day, week, month, even year,but, yes, you are a tooth on a gear which you do not control, nor know about. They are not just stopping by idly. Guaranteed. Not saying your friend is in trouble, r did anything wrong, but, for some reason, someone has reason to believe he did. Or someone he has a connection to did. |
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