Naval guns were big. - Page 3

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Posted: 10/17/2011 5:49:29 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
Gerald Bull laughs at your "big guns".

He has not, for some time now.

Posted: 10/17/2011 6:00:02 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Nothing says FUCK YOU, TOJO better than a full broadside from one of the old battle wagons... The sheer shock of it would hit you in the chest like a baseball bat times 9. Notice the wakes at the waterline - that's the ship going SIDEWAYS from the recoil

No, it isn't. It's the shockwave from the muzzle blasts.

This

I can't believe this crap is still being parroted on the internet!

ETA: Just kidding.

To be fair, I was told by a USMC officer at NGF school at NAB Little Creek that it indeed caused an Iowa Class BB to "slide" when a full broad side was fired. I believed it for years, until dport schooled me. Damn you Capt Quail.

My friend's dad was a Gunner's Mate on the Iowa and he also told me about the ship moving sideways.

Posted: 10/17/2011 6:05:37 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Nothing says FUCK YOU, TOJO better than a full broadside from one of the old battle wagons... The sheer shock of it would hit you in the chest like a baseball bat times 9. Notice the wakes at the waterline - that's the ship going SIDEWAYS from the recoil

No, it isn't. It's the shockwave from the muzzle blasts.

This

I can't believe this crap is still being parroted on the internet!

ETA: Just kidding.

To be fair, I was told by a USMC officer at NGF school at NAB Little Creek that it indeed caused an Iowa Class BB to "slide" when a full broad side was fired. I believed it for years, until dport schooled me. Damn you Capt Quail.

My friend's dad was a Gunner's Mate on the Iowa and he also told me about the ship moving sideways.

I knew a guy who was a radar operator on a carrier during the Gulf War, he watched the Wisconsin slide 200 feet in the water, as measured with their radar every time she fired a broadside.

Posted: 10/17/2011 7:08:12 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I am pleased to note that all four of the battleships are spoken for as museums. A deal was recently made to preserve the Iowa, the last of the BBs

to still be in the Navy's inventory, and turn it into a museum along with the other three.

Here is part of the story: "San Fransisco shuns the Iowa" (from 2005):

"Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., a former San Francisco mayor, helped secure $3 million to tow the Iowa from Rhode Island to the Bay Area in 2001 in hopes of making touristy Fisherman's Wharf its new home.

But city supervisors voted 8-3 last month to oppose taking in the ship, citing local opposition to the Iraq war and the military's stance on gays, among other things.

"If I was going to commit any kind of money in recognition of war, then it should be toward peace, given what our war is in Iraq right now," Supervisor Ross Mirkarimi said.

Feinstein called it a "very petty decision."

"This isn't the San Francisco that I've known and loved and grew up in and was born in," Feinstein said. ""

Link: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8C3PH0G0

It is VERY rarely that I have anything complimentary to say about Dianne Feinstein, but I give her credit for this, at least. She does apparently have some measure of respect for the military,

and the sacrifices made by our soldiers, seamen, airmen, and marines in the defense of our freedom. And shows respect for our military's history.

That does not give her a pass on other issues, however.

Posted: 10/17/2011 7:33:21 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Nothing says FUCK YOU, TOJO better than a full broadside from one of the old battle wagons... The sheer shock of it would hit you in the chest like a baseball bat times 9. Notice the wakes at the waterline - that's the ship going SIDEWAYS from the recoil

No, it isn't. It's the shockwave from the muzzle blasts.

This

I can't believe this crap is still being parroted on the internet!

ETA: Just kidding.

To be fair, I was told by a USMC officer at NGF school at NAB Little Creek that it indeed caused an Iowa Class BB to "slide" when a full broad side was fired. I believed it for years, until dport schooled me. Damn you Capt Quail.

My friend's dad was a Gunner's Mate on the Iowa and he also told me about the ship moving sideways.

My Grandfather was the GMCM on there and said the same thing for years.

Posted: 10/17/2011 7:36:54 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
http://www.edumedia-share.com/uploaded/800/822.gif

You, Sir, win.

Always wondered how that worked. Had a general idea but neat to see it laid out like that.

Posted: 10/17/2011 7:39:55 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think I remember reading somewhere (can't remember where) that in more recent years obsolete Naval gun barrels were being utilized to make "bunker-buster" deep penetrator bombs. Don't recall the size ranges they selected ....... anyone have any knowledge of this ? The descriptions were kinda fascinating at the time.

Those were 203MM howitzer barrels from Army and Marine artillery pieces.

I got to see those being made at watervliet.

Fellow Mech-E or later on in your career Sir?

That plant gives one hell of a tour...And the Colonel that runs it is the only Soldier on post.

Yes, as a young cadet studying to do great things in life.
I went in 92 right after desert storm and bunker busters were all the rage.
Got to see the 16" sleeves that were still there beause we still had battleships (settle down rick)
Saw them machining 8" into bunker busters.
Saw brand new 140mm tank gun barrels they were testing.

Very cool tour.
The cadillac of the artillery world. They were proud of what they did, justifiably so.

Posted: 10/17/2011 7:45:08 AM EDT

[#8]

So much WIN!

Posted: 10/17/2011 7:45:23 AM EDT

[#9]

Ok maybe its not feasible to reactivate the Iowas now that they've all been made into museams.

However there are still a handful of barrells remaining, why not create some 16 inch Self propelled artillery with them.

Posted: 10/17/2011 7:53:22 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Do Not Hump

Sounds like a typical marriage.

Nick

Posted: 10/17/2011 7:53:32 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:Not that they are as useful now as they once were, but I wonder if we even have the machining capability to make half this stuff anymore?

I suspect that if we had to make cannon of such size today, completely different construction methods would be used.

Considering the lack of a technological base to do so, and the infrastructure investment required, I doubt we will see large cannons constructed in my, or the next several, lifetimes.

Cheaper to build a rocket or cruise missile to deliver the payload, and throw it away after one shot, than to set up for this sort of thing.

Posted: 10/17/2011 7:54:48 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Ok maybe its not feasible to reactivate the Iowas now that they've all been made into museams.

However there are still a handful of barrells remaining, why not create some 16 inch Self propelled artillery with them.

Because our weapons systems must fit in a C-17 and the European railway tunnels.

Kharn

Posted: 10/17/2011 8:00:37 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Damn those decks need to be holy stoned.

I believe they are teak.

The way we preserve our history is atrocious.

Take all the $$$$ spent on naming highways & buildings after politicians and apply it to those men and equipment who actually did something positive for our country.

"Holy Stoning" is a process where a Deck Swabber, Last Class (DSLC) takes a mop handle and affixes to one end of it a brick. The DSLC then puts some sand on the deck, and "scrubs" it with the brick to make the teak sparkle.

Posted: 10/17/2011 8:13:41 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
What do you mean not useful?
1, they created jobs, making the steel, making the steel into barrels and steel into ships.
2, a 16" 1900 - 2700 lbs round is quite useful at anything within 23.4 120 miles
3, they also could fire 15-20 kiloton nukes too....

280+ 16" shells hit Beruit in 1984, only mistake was stopping.

Arty can shoot anytime of the day, in any weather. Still a shit load of targets within 23.4 miles of the shore....
Think how well they would work clearing out the wall street protesters? The survivors would have jobs picking up the body parts and rubble.
win-win.

Fixed. They did a lot of testing and came out with new tech in the late 90's, they have range up too 120 miles and accuracy as good as many missiles for a lot less cost. The AP shells are able to do more damage to hardened targets than even the most modern missile systems. The Battleships are also able to take more damage than a modern ship and still keep fighting. In Libya we could have saved a ton of money with just one active battleship doing the job of the Aircraft carriers as most targets were well within the 120 mile operational umbrella.

Pretty sure your calculations are wrong when you consider the billion dollars a year it costs to maintain them.

What's it cost to maintain a carrier battle group and it's air wing?

Posted: 10/17/2011 8:26:46 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Ok maybe its not feasible to reactivate the Iowas now that they've all been made into museams.

However there are still a handful of barrells remaining, why not create some 16 inch Self propelled artillery with them.

Because it pretty much takes a battleship or a railway tran to make the guns 'self-propelled" - look at Atomic Annie - too big to really be practical, and that was only an 11". Took a big truck at each end to move it at all.

Posted: 10/17/2011 8:57:40 AM EDT

[#16]

The Iowa will be well taken care of in the Port of LA.

I was stoked that they got the bid, city vote and have already bought the berth where she will stay.

The list of people willing to give there time to help is closed, too many people have applied. This makes me happy, I'm on it too.

We had the same guns in coastal batteries around Los Angeles and many near the port. There is a very good tour through the bunkers with gun tubes, shells, targeting systems, ect. @ Fort McArthor.
As A kid we would sneek in to the ones that were off limits before they were removed. 10-12 floors deep with 20-30 FEET of concrete on the upper levels. The gun turret was a single or twin tube in a massive bunker. I think there were 20 something large guns and many more smaller flavors.

The gunners could hit the Catalina Island 22 miles offshore or shoot over it, but tried not to. The island of San Clamente was used as a target and landing training area. I fish there often and you can still see the huge craters fully covering a 10-15 mile swath on one side of the island. Swimming pool maker does it no justice, some are huge.

For the cost of some advanced projects we could have kept these ships in service. They still have a place IMO. If not just to scare the piss out of coastal assholes.

Posted: 10/17/2011 9:13:27 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Nothing says FUCK YOU, TOJO better than a full broadside from one of the old battle wagons... The sheer shock of it would hit you in the chest like a baseball bat times 9. Notice the wakes at the waterline - that's the ship going SIDEWAYS from the recoil

No, it isn't. It's the shockwave from the muzzle blasts.

This

I can't believe this crap is still being parroted on the internet!

ETA: Just kidding.

To be fair, I was told by a USMC officer at NGF school at NAB Little Creek that it indeed caused an Iowa Class BB to "slide" when a full broad side was fired. I believed it for years, until dport schooled me. Damn you Capt Quail.

My friend's dad was a Gunner's Mate on the Iowa and he also told me about the ship moving sideways.

I knew a guy who was a radar operator on a carrier during the Gulf War, he watched the Wisconsin slide 200 feet in the water, as measured with their radar every time she fired a broadside.

You sure about that? It would be like having the rug pulled out from underneath you every time a salvo was fired.

Posted: 10/17/2011 9:21:15 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Nothing says FUCK YOU, TOJO better than a full broadside from one of the old battle wagons... The sheer shock of it would hit you in the chest like a baseball bat times 9. Notice the wakes at the waterline - that's the ship going SIDEWAYS from the recoil

No, it isn't. It's the shockwave from the muzzle blasts.

This

I can't believe this crap is still being parroted on the internet!

ETA: Just kidding.

To be fair, I was told by a USMC officer at NGF school at NAB Little Creek that it indeed caused an Iowa Class BB to "slide" when a full broad side was fired. I believed it for years, until dport schooled me. Damn you Capt Quail.

My friend's dad was a Gunner's Mate on the Iowa and he also told me about the ship moving sideways.

I knew a guy who was a radar operator on a carrier during the Gulf War, he watched the Wisconsin slide 200 feet in the water, as measured with their radar every time she fired a broadside.

Ask him if he could pick up the mail bouy on radar too.

Posted: 10/17/2011 9:44:38 AM EDT

[#19]

Real quick and dirty calculations just using the heaviest weight and highest velocity given for a projectile and the weight of the ship and ignoring any resistance the water might give to sideways motion or other losses I get the ship having a sideways velocity of 0.58 ft/sec after firing a full broadside salvo.

Because there are losses of energy in the system through things such the recoil mechanism I'm sure the actual velocity of the ship is much less.

A quick calc. on the accuracy of the gun gives me 23 MOA (at 19 plus miles) if I read the supplied info correctly.

Posted: 10/17/2011 10:01:15 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Gerald Bull laughs at your "big guns".

From a Belgium graveyard.

Let's hear it for Supergun, Iraq.....and the MOSSAD.

Quoted:
So... Why would they want to make them?

Make a supergun? In quick theory, if you have the land infrastructure to make such a cannon, shells are cheaper and it is not as easy to divert something on pure ballistic flight.
____________________________________________________
("When you steal from the mob, that's not robbery.....it's suicide."––tagline, (w,stte), "Charlie Varrick")

They have a section of Saddam's supergun at the USAF museum at RAF Duxford.

Posted: 10/17/2011 12:04:10 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Ask him if he could pick up the mail bouy on radar too.

The BB didn't move sideways, but some doppler radar can track individual pellets in a shotgun pattern.

Posted: 10/17/2011 2:22:55 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

To be fair, I was told by a USMC officer at NGF school at NAB Little Creek that it indeed caused an Iowa Class BB to "slide" when a full broad side was fired. I believed it for years, until dport schooled me. Damn you Capt Quail.[/div]

Shoney Qualls is pretty smart guys and was actually a rocket scientist, by college degree.

Posted: 10/17/2011 5:59:50 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

You think those guns are big? Imagine the 18" naval guns on the Musashi and Yamato. Adding 2 more inches of barrel diameter no doubt increases the weight immensely.

Wonder what those shells weighed?

I seem to remember they were 3200lbs, maybe 3600lbs.

Posted: 10/17/2011 6:02:32 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:

To be fair, I was told by a USMC officer at NGF school at NAB Little Creek that it indeed caused an Iowa Class BB to "slide" when a full broad side was fired. I believed it for years, until dport schooled me. Damn you Capt Quail.[/div]

Shoney Qualls is pretty smart guys and was actually a rocket scientist, by college degree.

Are we talking about the same guy? This Capt name was Quail I'm pretty sure, Jump Wings and A.O. Wings was with 2nd ANGLICO before he went to LFTCLANT.

Posted: 10/17/2011 6:08:33 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Damn those decks need to be holy stoned.

I believe they are teak.

The way we preserve our history is atrocious.

Take all the $$$$ spent on naming highways & buildings after politicians and apply it to those men and equipment who actually did something positive for our country.

That is correct the deck is teak wood. I stood on the deck of the USS Missouri that was anchored in Long Beach Calif before being deactived, and the tour guide mentioned that it was teak wood, but I forget the reason why though. Can someone explain.

BTW: I walked on the same deck that the treaty end WWII was signed, what an awesome and humbling feeling on history.

Teak holds up well compared to other wood in a marine environment.

Or did you mean why was it decked with teak instead of sand grit embeded in the paint on a steel deck?

Posted: 10/17/2011 6:30:48 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:

How big?

Here's a little article that shows the barrels from WWII guns.

http://www.rgspemkt.com/4925V5.jpg

http://www.rgspemkt.com/WebCoverPageV5.jpg

http://www.rgspemkt.com/Hist1-V5.jpg

http://www.rgspemkt.com/Hist2-V5.jpg

http://www.rgspemkt.com/215-P2.html

Not that they are as useful now as they once were, but I wonder if we even have the machining capability to make half this stuff anymore?

no, we don't.

Man I get tired of hearing this line, as if making large steel tubes is somehow beyond our grasp despite all the advances in technology that have been made in the last 50 years.

IF we had the need to build battleship guns again we could do it lighter and stronger than before.

We have several items on the old ships that we can no longer make. We do not have the ability to make the armor for one anymore,lots og the gears and the like either. We have lost a lot of abilities that we had in the early half of the 20th century due to attrition and technology making things "better". Hell, look at something like a Garand/M14 receiver. With all the companies out there trying to make a reliable copy, no one has come close to what a man with a furnace and a hammer forge using nothing but experience and judging the color of the steel by eye. Sad to say but the closest anyone has come is the Chinese with the Norinco receivers.

If we needed a modern battleship, we would make it nuclear powered just like the aircraft carriers we are making now. Since the aircraft carriers we are building now are huge, propulsion would not be a problem.

A hammer forge is used to make simple objects. Drop forging uses dies to make more complicated parts. I doubt the Garand receiver was hammer forged.

Posted: 10/17/2011 6:40:37 PM EDT

[#27]

I can make a Garand receiver easily. Its just that much more easier and cheaper to make an AR10.

Why can't we make armor anymore?

Posted: 10/17/2011 6:40:54 PM EDT

[#28]

For Sale Big guns, Really big guns!

G

Posted: 10/17/2011 6:40:54 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
How big?

Here's a little article that shows the barrels from WWII guns.

http://www.rgspemkt.com/4925V5.jpg

http://www.rgspemkt.com/WebCoverPageV5.jpg

http://www.rgspemkt.com/Hist1-V5.jpg

http://www.rgspemkt.com/Hist2-V5.jpg

http://www.rgspemkt.com/215-P2.html

Not that they are as useful now as they once were, but I wonder if we even have the machining capability to make half this stuff anymore?

no, we don't.

Man I get tired of hearing this line, as if making large steel tubes is somehow beyond our grasp despite all the advances in technology that have been made in the last 50 years.

IF we had the need to build battleship guns again we could do it lighter and stronger than before.

We have several items on the old ships that we can no longer make. We do not have the ability to make the armor for one anymore,lots og the gears and the like either. We have lost a lot of abilities that we had in the early half of the 20th century due to attrition and technology making things "better". Hell, look at something like a Garand/M14 receiver. With all the companies out there trying to make a reliable copy, no one has come close to what a man with a furnace and a hammer forge using nothing but experience and judging the color of the steel by eye. Sad to say but the closest anyone has come is the Chinese with the Norinco receivers.

If we needed a modern battleship, we would make it nuclear powered just like the aircraft carriers we are making now. Since the aircraft carriers we are building now are huge, propulsion would not be a problem.

A hammer forge is used to make simple objects. Drop forging uses dies to make more complicated parts. I doubt the Garand receiver was hammer forged.

Correct. IIRC the M1 and M14 receivers were drop-forged and machined. Different, in the M1/M14 section of the Armory, and a few other members, have copies of the actual spec documents, and post pics of them periodically on ARFcom.