He'd probably look at it and try to use it as if it were a rather fragile messer with an inadequate crossguard.
That's a joke, folks, not a statement that katana are flimsy.  Realistically, that IS probably what a knight, particularly a Germanic knight, would think of if he saw a katana.



 

Oh, good, another poster who is completely uninterested in the topic other than to do a drive by shitting.



 

Herein lies the fallacy of this argument.

Say that in prison, and you might get raped.

Japense steel is superior to any steel made in that time frame.

There are 2 distinct advantages.

One being the japanese blade is differencially harden.  Meaning a 58-62 rockwell leading, convex edge and hardended shell with a substancially softer yet tougher interior core.

The blade could take a contact blow and not shear.

The second is weight differential vs strength.

This being said holding skill and other variables equal.

the best japanese steel would defeat the best european steel.

It is still opinion though in the end.

Yep, so please substantiate the opinions that you just ventured.  Do you have any facts or data to back any of that up in a way which shows superior qualities of the Japanese steel and blades vs. European?





 

It has nothing to do with purifying his steel. If you want to understand the work involved with Japanese swords you need to understand the basic issue Japan has dealt with for ages, problems in it's resources.

Japans steel has very low carbon content. This actually carried over even into the modern era with the Yamamoto's and other warships armour belts.

To get over this Japanese smiths to there credit came up with ways to get around this limitation. Over all the steel they had was very, very poor. Most of what they used would have been used as horse shoes in Europe. That's not an insult, that is they type of steel the Japanese had to try to make weapons out of.

With low carbon steel the swords are not hard enough to hold an edge, they will also not temper well and lead to bending.

If your steel has to much carbon content they become to hard and brittle, they will literally shatter. This is why you see no usable swords made out of stainless steel, to much carbon and they are to brittle.

When Japanese smith got good steel they would "fold" it. This has 0 to do with looks, 0 to do with mysticism, 0 to do with ninja skillz It has to do with carbon migration between the bulk low carbon steel they had to work with and the very good bits they had.

By folding and folding they were able to over come the issues they had and make good swords. This is a masive amount of man power. Where in Europe a smith could turn over 10+ quality swords in the same time it took to make one good blade in Japan.

The style of sword developed in Japan has more to do with the volume and type of armour used. In Europe swords believe it or not were NOT a very useful item on the battle feild Armour was to prevalent and good. They were much more a status symbol or secondary weapon. Pikes, Halberds, Axes, Maces ect that defeated armour much better than swords was the norm. Think of it this way; Distance first, crushing second, cut last.

Japanese swords are nice, over all the design is very effective at what it's deigned for; cutting. Japanese smiths came up with masterful ways of over coming there the crap they had to work with.

To insinuate European swords are crude or poor in comparison is fan boy stupidity the likes LaRue and Magpul would be jealous of.

Different weapons, different situations.

Kampilan has a reverse edge and has seen battle.

<knock off the personal attacks>

Go back and watch the video I posted.

Bah.  Paladins + siege rams + handcannons.  Elephants are slow, expensive monk bait.  

Assuming one's likely enemies were wearing well-made metal armor, the answer is probably the longsword, since that is the weapon that evolved in that sort of environment.  From watching various ARMA/HEMA cutting videos, it's apparent that swords of any description (super ZOMG katanas included) had very little chance of cutting or piercing through riveted mail or plate, and that for an armored opponent, pole arms were in order, or alternately, close-in work with halfsword or dagger.

It's 90% user 10% blade in most sword VS sword.  The same is probably true in most things.

No, the fallacy lies in "heavier". Rarely have I seen a historical European fighting sword that weighs over 4 lbs. A few of the monster two-handed deals might get close to 5, but otherwise they weigh about the same as Japanese swords. The quality of the things would be pretty similar as well, Europe having better quality steel to work with. If we want to compare steel with properties that are eclipsed by legend rather than confirmed by history, a Damascus blade would slice atoms.

The myth of the magic katana has been pretty thoroughly debunked by now.

(But I'd have to see a sword "go right through" another, maybe several times no matter which culture built either one, before I'd even start to believe it)

You really don't know what you're talking about.



Too much carbon doesn't necessarily make a steel brittle. It can with improper tempering but that is in the heat treat, not the amount of carbon.



Stainless steel has too much carbon and is brittle??????????????? Um, no. I'm not going to go get my Machinist's Handbook, but I can assure you that, especially 300 series stainless, is not brittle. 440c can be made to be brittle. CPM 10v can, too. But neither of them are as brittle as a carbon steel with the same carbon content and the same Rc.



You're mistaken on the damascus steel. They didn't fold high carbon steel into low carbon steel. They fold the surface carbon into the center to distribute it. The sword was made of different steels for different sections (in cross section) of the sword. The high carbon, high hard piece being the edge.



Also, part of the reason Japanese take so long to make the sword is all the religious and tradition crap they preform while making it, believing it gave the sword special abilities.



I'm unsure of when each civilization aquired the open hearth furnace technology to make modern steel. I would surmise it came about in Europe, first, because of Japan's isolationist and traditionalist views. That would certainly make a difference in steel quality.

Okay, if not Damascus steel, then Solingen or Toledo. Take your pick, Europe had many centers of high quality steelworking.

Japan was neither isolationist nor hidebound/traditionalist until the 1630's, well into the gunpowder era. Prior to that, they were part of the Chinese trading sphere, and were buying European swords for the steel, which they would reforge into more typical blades. They have always been innovative adopters and adapters of foreign technology, especially military technology. They just had shitty local resources, and masterfully worked around it.

trust me, i know how swords are made. folding steel is not some ancient buried secret. i just assumed masamune was purifying it somehow because the steel he used was reportedly better than that of everyone else. Or he had some source of better steel than others. I cannot confirm nor deny this, it's just what I have heard.

For mass battle I would rather have an axe than a sword. You pull shields out of the way and get them on the back swing. Or you partner nails them. If the armor stops it. It will still break bones.

Buying and reforging european sword blanks would be a good bet.  

the OP's question was about modern usage, which means modern/current metallurgy would apply...

I suggest reading any of SM Stirling's "Emberverse" novels to see what he says. :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emberverse_series

Great series

So, you're saying it's not like this?











Seriously tho, watching those videos did give me a new appreciation for sword fighting.

A gladius did both extremely well.  A rapier could also cut very well (the cut was certainly taught in schools of fence).  Just because it wasn't designed to cut through maile doesn't mean it couldn't cut.  

Also note that the gladius and rapier were designed for one-handed use, meaning they delivered an effective cut with less force behind the blade.

That would be my vote.

Pointwork = rapier

Cutter/cleaver = Too subjective or preferncial

Anything by Hitori Hanso.  

I think arfcom needs to sponser a giant LARP rally to settle the matter.

This one would by far be the winner.

Plus you can duel wield  gladiu's...or is that gladi?

I believe, and I certainly hope, that I've never come across as being in that second group.  I DO get annoyed at the (to indulge in a bit of hyperbole) "OMGkatanasaresoawesomeEnolaGaygotluckyasamuraicouldcutaB-29inhalfat32,000feet!!!" kind of fanboyism, and even moreso at the constant presentation of European swords as heavy, clumsy, crude, slow, and brutishly used in these kind of threads, and try to keep to defending from that and from blanket statements that katanas and similar blades are somehow inherently superior, generally spouted without any kind of backup data or substantiation.  I LIKE katanas, I'd love to own one and learn to use it someday, but I like longsword better, and have my hands full learning (slowly) how to fight in that style.  I am extremely impressed with what Japanese smiths did with the resources that they had.  I'd just appreciate a similar courtesy, or at least an open mind, from the rabid katanophiles.





BTW, I cannot recall, from past threads like this, if you're familiar with Albion's work, but they have a two handed sword that they've released in the last couple years that is of a peculiarly Danish design.  Pricey, but very cool.



 

agreed.  Just as different rifles excel at various purposes (Mk 18 with a red dot for CQB, SPR or scoped Bolt gun for long range, etc.) different styles of blades evolved for different purposes.  

Massed Phalanx = Spear and Gladius

Horseback = Lance or Cavalry Saber

Personal Protection against unarmored assailants = Rapier or Katana would probably do equally well

Fighting someone in heavy plate armor = My first choice would be a crossbow with a bolt designed to defeat heavy armor.  If I had to do i up close, probably a Halberd

nerd fight!

The question seemed to be what a civilian would use for general defense in normal life.  The answer is a rapier or smallsword.  Devastating in anything but armored conflict.

Drunk Portuguese sailors slaughtered professional Samurai wholesale with their dress rapiers.

I'll be checking it out more too.  those guys made it look easy but I can't imagine the man hours they's spent practicing for it

I'd kind of like to see a citation on the drunk Portuguese sailors, actually.  Not that I doubt a good rapier fighter could beat a samurai (note, I'm not saying every time or silly shit like that, just that it's plausible), but if I'm going to insist on substantiation to the "Japanese swords are a better design and material" type posts...I really should ask the same on something like this.



 

Dude, the stuff is not equally incorrect. Japanese swordsmanship is a beautiful combat art. So is Sayoc Kali. But would you want to be a Sayoc practitioner facing a Ringeck student with his longsword?

This is the point: In the face of a longswordsman, the traditional JSA practitioner would have to deal with immediate technical disadvantages that involve range and single-edged strike response adaptability.

Think squared off pistol vs SBR at 30 yards. Yes, it could be won...but who has the advantage? Would you want to bet your life on being the pistolero it if you could choose an SBR?

I practice with some fairly experienced guys, but have NEVER seen winding or duplieren that fast AND precise, all at once.



 

it's important to remember that the OP is talking about a compromise sword––a jack of all trades.  a rapier, for example, would be great for unarmored dueling, but almost worthless on a battlefield.  a hand and a half seems more useful there, but i'd hate to have to clear rooms with one.  and what if i injure my weak arm?  that would be an awfully cumbersome arming sword.  not to mention, kinematics and physique play into this as well––what works best for me is going to be a lot different that for someone who is 6'4" and 250#.



when i decided to buy a sword, i sat down and considered all these things to decide what would be the best all-purpose sword for me.  i'm never going to need the damn thing, but if i was going to sink the money, i wanted it to be actually useful.  wound up going with a slightly heavier than usual (2.25#) chinese straight sword.  

A katana would never get in range.

The Jap steel sucked, the Yamamoto is sitting on the bottom of the ocean with its sister and the Iowa's would have, given the opportunity, raped them in a stand up fight.

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-040.htm

European steel making was always better, when they where still playing with sharp sticks Europe was using firearms.

Not bad points, but if the katana guy has at least a passing familiarity with what he's facing, and knows the limitations, a reach advantage can be negated with good timing and judgment of distance and measure.  Not to mention the annoying way a shorter blade can surprise you by coming off the bind when you don't expect it to.  I'm going to throw out my gut response of fighter>sword or style, with the full admission that I simply don't know how the katana is used in practice, and so lack the understanding to make a truly informed opinion on whether one art or the other has a substantial enough advantage to tilt the odds sufficiently.



 

I can agree with all of that. And dare I mention close quarters where the range issue has already been leveled out...a shorter blade can be murder.

I don't know if it is true but I read a stastic somewhere that the rapier was responsible for more deaths than any other type of sword.

I used to do rapier/cut and thrust, and me and the guy I practiced with would sometimes screw around with single sword versus paired daggers.  He HATED facing me when I had the two daggers.  



 

Poking shit never gets old, does it?

I didn't think you were, but a man likes to check, from time to time, that he's not acting like an ass when he's not paying attention.  
I'll be interested to see where this thread has gone (and what new videos I can look at are up) later, I'm Night Crew for a while, so I'm off to bed.





Be nice if Albion's site is back up when I awake, I'm super motivated/tempted to get a Leichtenauer blunt for some reason.