User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 5/13/2011 7:59:36 PM EDT
[#1]
Saiga 20
They are imported in sporter configuration, you have to mod them yourself or have somebody do it for you. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2011 8:00:06 PM EDT
[#2]
I would assume most companies make 20 gauge semi-autos. Might take a little work to get it to HD specs.
Personally, I'd get her a 12 gauge with low recoil ammo. I don't think gauge is going to make a huge difference in recoil. The guns don't hurt so much when you're getting shot at. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2011 8:06:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
I would assume most companies make 20 gauge semi-autos. Might take a little work to get it to HD specs. Personally, I'd get her a 12 gauge with low recoil ammo. I don't think gauge is going to make a huge difference in recoil. The guns don't hurt so much when you're getting shot at. I already have a 12 ga. Length of pull is too long for her. She flinches like a scared cat shooting 00 buck out of it. Do they make low recoil 12 ga 00 buck? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2011 8:11:02 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would assume most companies make 20 gauge semi-autos. Might take a little work to get it to HD specs. Personally, I'd get her a 12 gauge with low recoil ammo. I don't think gauge is going to make a huge difference in recoil. The guns don't hurt so much when you're getting shot at. I already have a 12 ga. Length of pull is too long for her. She flinches like a scared cat shooting 00 buck out of it. Do they make low recoil 12 ga 00 buck? Yes. Winchester Ranger, Fiocchi, and Federal do, off the top of my head. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2011 8:12:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Mossberg make the Persuader in 20 gauge. 18 inch barrel with a pistol grip. It's based on the model 500 pump.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2011 8:12:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would assume most companies make 20 gauge semi-autos. Might take a little work to get it to HD specs. Personally, I'd get her a 12 gauge with low recoil ammo. I don't think gauge is going to make a huge difference in recoil. The guns don't hurt so much when you're getting shot at. I already have a 12 ga. Length of pull is too long for her. She flinches like a scared cat shooting 00 buck out of it. Do they make low recoil 12 ga 00 buck? Yes. Winchester Ranger, Fiocchi, and Federal do, off the top of my head. I'll let her give the 12 ga another shot with said ammo. If it's gtg, I may get her a 12 w/ adjustable stock. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2011 8:13:20 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Mossberg make the Persuader in 20 gauge. 18 inch barrel with a pistol grip. It's based on the model 500 pump. Persuader is a pump though, right? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2011 8:36:54 PM EDT
[#8]
Get her an 18" gas operated semi-auto in 12ga. The gas system will reduce the recoil impulse to way below a pump 20ga, and the shorter barrel means less gas burned. As mentioned above, the 20ga kicks almost as much as a 12ga, both because the ammo is ballistically comparable, and because 20ga guns are usually somewhat lighter than the 12ga equivalent.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2011 8:41:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Look for 12ga ammo for law enforcement. A lot of them are low brass.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2011 8:48:20 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Get her an 18" gas operated semi-auto in 12ga. The gas system will reduce the recoil impulse to way below a pump 20ga, and the shorter barrel means less gas burned. As mentioned above, the 20ga kicks almost as much as a 12ga, both because the ammo is ballistically comparable, and because 20ga guns are usually somewhat lighter than the 12ga equivalent. That's why I was thinking semi auto 20 ga. Semi auto 20 will recoil less than semi auto 12. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2011 9:03:37 PM EDT
[#11]
One time in a shop,I saw a factory Remington 870, parked, mag extension, Knoxx recoil reducing stock. From what I have heard, 20 doesn't have enough recoil to take advantage of that stock, but I have never shot it in that configuration.
870 12ga with the Knoxx stock is soft though, regardless of what NUGnFancy says. ETA: sorry, I missed the semi-auto requirement. It was drunk and I was late. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2011 9:07:50 PM EDT
[#12]
If the length of pull on your shotgun is too long let her try a youth model. The LOP is shorter.
Jim |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2011 9:38:25 PM EDT
[#13]
870+Knoxx Specops Adjustable stock+Low recoil 00Buck
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2011 9:57:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Saiga 20 http://world.guns.ru/userfiles/images/shotgun/sh31/saiga_20k.jpg They are imported in sporter configuration, you have to mod them yourself or have somebody do it for you. Holy shit! When did Saiga's get so expensive? I remember when they were under $400. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/13/2011 10:01:01 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
870+Knoxx Specops Adjustable stock+Low recoil 00Buck 870 is not semi auto |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 3:36:29 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
870+Knoxx Specops Adjustable stock+Low recoil 00Buck i tried that combo with my wife; the steel 870 was too heavy for her. maybe an alloy-framed mossberg with the knoxx ( now part of Remington) stock, with tactical buck? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 5:39:55 AM EDT
[#17]
if the 870 weighs too much, more important than a defensive firearm is some physical conditioning.
as far as a shotgun goes, I'd get her a hammerless, single trigger, 20ga coach gun, like the stoeger tactical one, mount a light and a shell caddy on it, and have her practice the hell out of reloading it. if she's worried about 12ga, and not strong enough to handle the 870, then it's not realistic to expect her to be able to competently "run" a semi-auto, or a pump under stress, clearing malfunctions, etc.. she needs simple, until she gets more familiar with firearms in general. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 5:49:32 AM EDT
[#18]
I believe the Hogue 12" LOP stock for an 870 would fit an 1100 or 1187. I'd skip the pistol grip part. The whole gun recoils so the same amount of force going into the should is also going into the hand if you don't know what your doing. Personally I'd also try to find some low recoil 12 rather than 20. I prefer Federal 00 Flitecontrol LE Low Recoil, but these can cause issues in some semi-autos.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 5:56:04 AM EDT
[#19]
Get her a Youth Model with a shorter length of pull.
20 gauge will work fine with buckshot. Forget the pistol grip, as that is a terrible idea, and only makes hitting the target much more difficult, especially for a woman that is not a well-trained shooter. Shotgun shooters have been using shoulder stocks for a long time. Ever wonder why? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 8:55:24 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
if the 870 weighs too much, more important than a defensive firearm is some physical conditioning. as far as a shotgun goes, I'd get her a hammerless, single trigger, 20ga coach gun, like the stoeger tactical one, mount a light and a shell caddy on it, and have her practice the hell out of reloading it. if she's worried about 12ga, and not strong enough to handle the 870, then it's not realistic to expect her to be able to competently "run" a semi-auto, or a pump under stress, clearing malfunctions, etc.. she needs simple, until she gets more familiar with firearms in general. Physical conditioning? She runs marathons in 2:30-2:50. She weighs 110 lbs and reps 80 lbs on bench. Lifting and cardio are a big part of our lives. It's completely inaccurate to say that because she doesn't have the physical stature to drive an 870 she is not competent in operating it. The two issues are separate. I'm betting she is more profficient with a pistol than 35% of arfcom. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 8:58:44 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Get her a Youth Model with a shorter length of pull. 20 gauge will work fine with buckshot. Forget the pistol grip, as that is a terrible idea, and only makes hitting the target much more difficult, especially for a woman that is not a well-trained shooter. Shotgun shooters have been using shoulder stocks for a long time. Ever wonder why? I figured a pistol grip would be an intuitive transition from her AR. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 9:16:48 AM EDT
[#22]
so why not set her up with an AR?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 9:22:14 AM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Get her an 18" gas operated semi-auto in 12ga. The gas system will reduce the recoil impulse to way below a pump 20ga, and the shorter barrel means less gas burned. As mentioned above, the 20ga kicks almost as much as a 12ga, both because the ammo is ballistically comparable, and because 20ga guns are usually somewhat lighter than the 12ga equivalent. That's why I was thinking semi auto 20 ga. Semi auto 20 will recoil less than semi auto 12. I've shot both, to me with semi shotguns the recoil difference is very small. You might check around your area for buckshot availability, 12 gauge buckshot is everywhere around here, but I cant find any 20 gauge buckshot at all, just birdshot, I had to order 20 gauge buckshot online. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 9:25:19 AM EDT
[#24]
Good to know.
I'm thinking of trying to find a mossberg spx. I think that if I can get the length of pull dialed in for her, she will be able to run it without any problems. It would be nice to only have 12 ga shells to worry about. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 9:25:35 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Okay, am I missing something?Quoted: Get her a Youth Model with a shorter length of pull. 20 gauge will work fine with buckshot. Forget the pistol grip, as that is a terrible idea, and only makes hitting the target much more difficult, especially for a woman that is not a well-trained shooter. Shotgun shooters have been using shoulder stocks for a long time. Ever wonder why? I figured a pistol grip would be an intuitive transition from her AR. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 9:44:17 AM EDT
[#26]
There isn't much difference in the recoil between 12 and 20 g. If you want lower recoil for her, you should look into a semi-auto carbine.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 9:53:58 AM EDT
[#27]
Try an AR. No recoil.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 10:45:13 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Get her a Youth Model with a shorter length of pull. 20 gauge will work fine with buckshot. Forget the pistol grip, as that is a terrible idea, and only makes hitting the target much more difficult, especially for a woman that is not a well-trained shooter. Shotgun shooters have been using shoulder stocks for a long time. Ever wonder why? I figured a pistol grip would be an intuitive transition from her AR. She has an AR15? Then why does she need a shotgun? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 11:23:37 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Get her a Youth Model with a shorter length of pull. 20 gauge will work fine with buckshot. Forget the pistol grip, as that is a terrible idea, and only makes hitting the target much more difficult, especially for a woman that is not a well-trained shooter. Shotgun shooters have been using shoulder stocks for a long time. Ever wonder why? I figured a pistol grip would be an intuitive transition from her AR. So you're looking for a stock WITH pistol grip? It looks like O_P was thinking you're looking for a pistol grip only, and I agree those are a terrible idea. Stock with pistol grip is a decent idea. You might want to try tracking down a Remington 11-48. IIRC they were a recoil operated auto with the action spring on the magazine tube so nothing goes back into the stock. That way, the stock attaches right up to the receiver instead of over a tube containing the action spring like the 1100/11-87. That way, 870 stocks will fit, and finding a stock she likes might be easier. Add a shorter barrel(or cut the original to 18-20 inshes) and you've got a HD shotgun for her. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 11:36:40 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
if the 870 weighs too much, more important than a defensive firearm is some physical conditioning. as far as a shotgun goes, I'd get her a hammerless, single trigger, 20ga coach gun, like the stoeger tactical one, mount a light and a shell caddy on it, and have her practice the hell out of reloading it. if she's worried about 12ga, and not strong enough to handle the 870, then it's not realistic to expect her to be able to competently "run" a semi-auto, or a pump under stress, clearing malfunctions, etc.. she needs simple, until she gets more familiar with firearms in general. Physical conditioning? She runs marathons in 2:30-2:50. She weighs 110 lbs and reps 80 lbs on bench. Lifting and cardio are a big part of our lives. It's completely inaccurate to say that because she doesn't have the physical stature to drive an 870 she is not competent in operating it. The two issues are separate. I'm betting she is more profficient with a pistol than 35% of arfcom. didn't mean to put you on the defensive. I was just going off the information available, and want the best for you and her. in all seriousness then, have you given any thought to a Kel-Tec Sub2K? it's the smallest, lightest, non-22lr long gun I have, and it has a PG. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 11:40:51 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Wondering that myself. Info, we need MOAR!Quoted: Quoted: Get her a Youth Model with a shorter length of pull. 20 gauge will work fine with buckshot. Forget the pistol grip, as that is a terrible idea, and only makes hitting the target much more difficult, especially for a woman that is not a well-trained shooter. Shotgun shooters have been using shoulder stocks for a long time. Ever wonder why? I figured a pistol grip would be an intuitive transition from her AR. She has an AR15? Then why does she need a shotgun? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 5:30:46 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Get her a Youth Model with a shorter length of pull. 20 gauge will work fine with buckshot. Forget the pistol grip, as that is a terrible idea, and only makes hitting the target much more difficult, especially for a woman that is not a well-trained shooter. Shotgun shooters have been using shoulder stocks for a long time. Ever wonder why? I figured a pistol grip would be an intuitive transition from her AR. She has an AR15? Then why does she need a shotgun? I had a couple AR's. She has claimed one of them. I live in a neighborhood with tightly packed houses. I would be more comfortable if she was armed with buck shot if in a self defense scenario in case she were to miss. That's not to say there is no collateral liability with buckshot. ETA-I never thought I would read someone on arf posting "why do you need a gun." |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 5:32:14 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Get her a Youth Model with a shorter length of pull. 20 gauge will work fine with buckshot. Forget the pistol grip, as that is a terrible idea, and only makes hitting the target much more difficult, especially for a woman that is not a well-trained shooter. Shotgun shooters have been using shoulder stocks for a long time. Ever wonder why? I figured a pistol grip would be an intuitive transition from her AR. So you're looking for a stock WITH pistol grip? It looks like O_P was thinking you're looking for a pistol grip only, and I agree those are a terrible idea. Stock with pistol grip is a decent idea. You might want to try tracking down a Remington 11-48. IIRC they were a recoil operated auto with the action spring on the magazine tube so nothing goes back into the stock. That way, the stock attaches right up to the receiver instead of over a tube containing the action spring like the 1100/11-87. That way, 870 stocks will fit, and finding a stock she likes might be easier. Add a shorter barrel(or cut the original to 18-20 inshes) and you've got a HD shotgun for her. Yes, a shotgun with a stock AND pistol grip...I'm not a fan of shotguns without butt stocks. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 5:41:58 PM EDT
[#34]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 7:11:23 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Get her a Youth Model with a shorter length of pull. 20 gauge will work fine with buckshot. Forget the pistol grip, as that is a terrible idea, and only makes hitting the target much more difficult, especially for a woman that is not a well-trained shooter. Shotgun shooters have been using shoulder stocks for a long time. Ever wonder why? I figured a pistol grip would be an intuitive transition from her AR. She has an AR15? Then why does she need a shotgun? I had a couple AR's. She has claimed one of them. I live in a neighborhood with tightly packed houses. I would be more comfortable if she was armed with buck shot if in a self defense scenario in case she were to miss. That's not to say there is no collateral liability with buckshot. ETA-I never thought I would read someone on arf posting "why do you need a gun." The .223/5.56 with proper ammo selection is much less likely to penetrate too many walls than a bunch of lead pellets from a shotgun. I'm sure somebody in this thread has a link to the Box o' Truth. Now add in the difference in usability (the weight and length of the gun for her), platform familiarity (having to learn controls, reloading, etc), and comfortableness of practice (who wants to run through 100+ rounds of 12 or even 20 gauge for practice? And what's the good of a defensive gun with which you don't practice?), and she's much less likely to miss in a stressful situation with the AR15 than a shotgun. Throw in ammo capacity, and recoil... and the AR15 is a lot more attractive for her HD weapon. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/14/2011 8:41:23 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Get her a Youth Model with a shorter length of pull. 20 gauge will work fine with buckshot. Forget the pistol grip, as that is a terrible idea, and only makes hitting the target much more difficult, especially for a woman that is not a well-trained shooter. Shotgun shooters have been using shoulder stocks for a long time. Ever wonder why? I figured a pistol grip would be an intuitive transition from her AR. She has an AR15? Then why does she need a shotgun? I had a couple AR's. She has claimed one of them. I live in a neighborhood with tightly packed houses. I would be more comfortable if she was armed with buck shot if in a self defense scenario in case she were to miss. That's not to say there is no collateral liability with buckshot. ETA-I never thought I would read someone on arf posting "why do you need a gun." The .223/5.56 with proper ammo selection is much less likely to penetrate too many walls than a bunch of lead pellets from a shotgun. I'm sure somebody in this thread has a link to the Box o' Truth. Now add in the difference in usability (the weight and length of the gun for her), platform familiarity (having to learn controls, reloading, etc), and comfortableness of practice (who wants to run through 100+ rounds of 12 or even 20 gauge for practice? And what's the good of a defensive gun with which you don't practice?), and she's much less likely to miss in a stressful situation with the AR15 than a shotgun. Throw in ammo capacity, and recoil... and the AR15 is a lot more attractive for her HD weapon. What is this proper ammo selection that you're referring to? If you're referring to glaser or frangible ammo, forget about it. I'm not running that shit. I would definitely like to see a link comparing over penetration of buck compared to .223. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2011 4:50:59 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
I would definitely like to see a link comparing over penetration of buck compared to .223. That's easy enough. 
Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls Bottom Line: Any round that will Stop a bad guy will penetrate several walls. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2011 5:02:07 AM EDT
[#38]
Does it have to have a pistol grip?
If not, this should work well for her IMHO: http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=41§ion=products |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2011 7:33:15 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would definitely like to see a link comparing over penetration of buck compared to .223. That's easy enough.
Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls Bottom Line: Any round that will Stop a bad guy will penetrate several walls. All your tests are great stuff. Do you have one where you try to simulate wall board combine with two exterior walls? I say 2 exterior because it would have to go through my stucco and into the neighbors wood siding or stucco. I'm not sure about stucco housing but wood siding is usually tacked onto osb. My closest neighbor is about 20 yards from my exterior wall to theirs. The neighbor across the street is about 50 yards away. I'm more concerned about this neighbor as they are in the line of sight of my front door. I would imagine that buckshot would be less likely to travel through 2 exterior walls, 50 yards apart, than .223 traveling over 3000 fps. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2011 8:57:18 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would definitely like to see a link comparing over penetration of buck compared to .223. That's easy enough.
Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls Bottom Line: Any round that will Stop a bad guy will penetrate several walls. All your tests are great stuff. Do you have one where you try to simulate wall board combine with two exterior walls? I say 2 exterior because it would have to go through my stucco and into the neighbors wood siding or stucco. I'm not sure about stucco housing but wood siding is usually tacked onto osb. My closest neighbor is about 20 yards from my exterior wall to theirs. The neighbor across the street is about 50 yards away. I'm more concerned about this neighbor as they are in the line of sight of my front door. I would imagine that buckshot would be less likely to travel through 2 exterior walls, 50 yards apart, than .223 traveling over 3000 fps. No, I do not have any tests with exterior walls, as there are literally hundreds of different exterior walls. But all of them are usually much tougher than interior walls. And, as that test and others have shown, there is not really much difference in wall penetration between rifles and shotguns. If you want a shotgun, no problem. I like shotguns.
But don't try to justify it by, "It doesn't penetrate as much as a rifle", as that is simply not true. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2011 9:03:48 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would definitely like to see a link comparing over penetration of buck compared to .223. That's easy enough.
Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls Bottom Line: Any round that will Stop a bad guy will penetrate several walls. . All your tests are great stuff. Do you have one where you try to simulate wall board combine with two exterior walls? I say 2 exterior because it would have to go through my stucco and into the neighbors wood siding or stucco. I'm not sure about stucco housing but wood siding is usually tacked onto osb. My closest neighbor is about 20 yards from my exterior wall to theirs. The neighbor across the street is about 50 yards away. I'm more concerned about this neighbor as they are in the line of sight of my front door. I would imagine that buckshot would be less likely to travel through 2 exterior walls, 50 yards apart, than .223 traveling over 3000 fps. No, I do not have any tests with exterior walls, as there are literally hundreds of different exterior walls. But all of them are usually much tougher than interior walls. And, as that test and others have shown, there is not really much difference in wall penetration between rifles and shotguns. If you want a shotgun, no problem. I like shotguns.
But don't try to justify it by, "It doesn't penetrate as much as a rifle", as that is simply not true. I'd bet dollars to donuts that buckshot will penetrate less distance through a medium (ballistic gel) at 50 yards than a rifle at the same distance. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2011 2:44:59 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
I'd bet dollars to donuts that buckshot will penetrate less distance through a medium (ballistic gel) at 50 yards than a rifle at the same distance. One of the better types (ie not FMJ) of .223, after having passed through a single wall, versus buckshot in the same test? That would certainly be interesting, let me know when you can get a big enough gelatin block to catch a piece of buckshot like that. I would bet they would probably be about the same, after all the .223 would be deformed and tumbling, which would slow it down a lot, and provide lower sectional density than the round pellet which would help it slow down quite a bit when it hits a wall. Maybe shoot a copper-plated round ball through a .32 black powder pistol? That might be accurate enough to pass through drywall and then hit some water jugs 50 yards away. Might take a dozen tries, but some test shots through drywall at some big butcher paper may give an idea whether it's feasible to try with water jugs. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/15/2011 2:48:31 PM EDT
[#43]
I remember seeing test results- other than OP, that showed that a .223 penetrated less than #00 buckshot, 9mm and .45acp. The heavier projectiles, even going slower, penetrated more wallboard than the .223. I think I remember that hollowpoints acted like FMJs due to the hollow cavity filling with wall material. I also think that a softpoint penetrated less, but it's been some time since I read it. I will try to find it. I think it was an online article from a magazine.
Jim |
|
|
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
