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Posted: 1/8/2011 9:14:36 PM EDT
[#1]
WTF?
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Posted: 1/8/2011 9:17:52 PM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 1/8/2011 9:19:43 PM EDT
[#3]
Those are for a 37mm launcher, Im referring to the ones with a pull pin & safety spoon. The hand thrown kind. |
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Posted: 1/8/2011 9:21:51 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Those are for a 37mm launcher, Im referring to the ones with a pull pin & safety spoon. The hand thrown kind. Like this? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=210218932 |
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Posted: 1/8/2011 9:23:15 PM EDT
[#5]
Its not that hard to make your own if they are now DD's, and I imagine it's still legal too.
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Posted: 1/8/2011 9:24:35 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: I was told that the atf reclassified them as dd's because of something in the fuses, can anyone verify this? I noticed the websites that used to sell the ALS smoke can no longer sells them. Do you have a link to those websites or any info on who told you? |
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Posted: 1/8/2011 9:27:20 PM EDT
[#7]
There are chemicals in the igniter that are listed on the BATFEs Explosives list and as such these devices need to be properly stored in explosive magazines. To my knowlege they are not DD, only "explosives". ATF has notified the places that used to sell them to comply or quit selling them. Why they didn't realize this a long time ago is anyones guess.
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Posted: 1/8/2011 9:28:31 PM EDT
[#8]
There's a thread in the DD section about this:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=21&t=331615 |
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Posted: 1/8/2011 9:30:44 PM EDT
[#9]
does anyone actually pay attention to the batf?
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Posted: 1/8/2011 9:59:49 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
There are chemicals in the igniter that are listed on the BATFEs Explosives list and as such these devices need to be properly stored in explosive magazines. To my knowlege they are not DD, only "explosives". ATF has notified the places that used to sell them to comply or quit selling them. Why they didn't realize this a long time ago is anyones guess. Most lead free primers contain RDX. Double and triple base powders contain Nitroglycerin, as do medications. The BATFE cannot take that approach. TR85. |
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Posted: 1/8/2011 10:10:21 PM EDT
[#11]
Sure they can. There is an exemption for sporting arms/firearms use. Medicine too. Black powder for example is on the list but if you say you are using it for your "sporting" muzzle loader then you are allowed/exempted 50 pounds before the rule kicks in. Small amounts of nitrocellulose, RDX, nitroglycerine, etc. in powders & primers are exempt. If you have 45 pounds of black powder and no black powder guns, you may have some explaining to do.
Here is the latest list: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-28874.pdf There is no "sporting use" for military type smoke grenades. |
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Posted: 1/8/2011 10:15:00 PM EDT
[#12]
I was told by ALS that they cant sell to anyone that isn't a DD dealer anymore when I called to ask them about it.
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Posted: 1/8/2011 10:29:34 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Sure they can. There is an exemption for sporting arms/firearms use. Medicine too. Black powder for example is on the list but if you say you are using it for your "sporting" muzzle loader then you are allowed/exempted 50 pounds before the rule kicks in. Small amounts of nitrocellulose, RDX, nitroglycerine, etc. in powders & primers are exempt. If you have 45 pounds of black powder and no black powder guns, you may have some explaining to do. Here is the latest list: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-28874.pdf There is no "sporting use" for military type smoke grenades. Lol, any paintballer/airsofter might say otherwise.... |
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Posted: 1/8/2011 10:42:30 PM EDT
[#14]
So thats why ammo to go stopped carrying them?
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Posted: 1/8/2011 10:43:54 PM EDT
[#15]
There are plenty of civillian smoke devices for all the posers. They don't get to define "sporting". Neither do I. My USAS-12 has plenty of "sporting" in it but I had to register it as a DD when Treasury said otherwise. Same with my Striker-12. Streetsweeping is a fun game played all over the world, but here it is no longer "sporting" so I had to register it too. Thank you Lloyd Bensen.
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Posted: 1/8/2011 10:46:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
does anyone actually pay attention to the batf? Oh not really, it's pretty much just those of us with an aversion to prison. 
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Posted: 1/8/2011 11:01:00 PM EDT
[#17]
According to folks at the last SWAT Roundup, smoke grenades are in fact now classified as a DD.
Yeah, it's fucking stupid. |
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Posted: 1/8/2011 11:14:35 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
does anyone actually pay attention to the batf? I do. They come and inspect me about once a year. And because I pay attention, they let me keep my FEL and my magazines chock full of all sorts of fun stuff that goes boom. I will contact my agent on Monday and see if I can clear this up. |
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Posted: 1/8/2011 11:23:34 PM EDT
[#19]
Sounds like you may be right OP all the online sources I use to get ALS products no longer have them listed.
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Posted: 1/8/2011 11:26:59 PM EDT
[#20]
That doesn't make much sense. Even explosive projectiles are only included explicitly by the amount of explosive present.
The term 'destructive device' shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; |
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Posted: 1/8/2011 11:29:15 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Sure they can. There is an exemption for sporting arms/firearms use. Medicine too. Black powder for example is on the list but if you say you are using it for your "sporting" muzzle loader then you are allowed/exempted 50 pounds before the rule kicks in. Small amounts of nitrocellulose, RDX, nitroglycerine, etc. in powders & primers are exempt. If you have 45 pounds of black powder and no black powder guns, you may have some explaining to do. Here is the latest list: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-28874.pdf There is no "sporting use" for military type smoke grenades. As a member in the destructive device forum said, safety fuse and black powder are also on that list. |
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Posted: 1/13/2011 9:37:45 AM EDT
[#22]
Finally got ahold of and just got off the phone with the ATF supervisor for this area (KCMO). To his knowlege there has been no re-classification of any smoke devices to DD status. If there were, there would have been a bulletin put out outlining the move, exemptions, grace periods, definitions, yada yada yada. There is no bulletin. He also said that there are many different igniters for smoke, flashbang and real grenades, some are "explosive" and must be treated as such but to contact the Technology Branch in D.C. for any further specifics.
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Posted: 1/13/2011 9:45:55 AM EDT
[#23]
They aren't treated as a DD, but they can be treated an an explosive depending on size, composition, etc.
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Posted: 1/13/2011 10:00:26 AM EDT
[#24]
They are not DD and do not require DD rules, they are "explosive" and fall under these storage rules and licenses requirements to be able to buy them. We use them a lot, but unlike Distraction devices and flash bangs we do not need to keep records on when we use them. There are two other forums that I know on this topic in the DD section of the armory( I believe) that I posted this on that can be read on for more talk about the matter. The smoke itself is not DD. I order this stuff for work and one day when ordering I had to fax a copy of our explosives license to the company that distributes for ALS to get these. I then talked to Mike Aultman senior VP of ALS to ask what was up and he told that this past November the BATF affirmed that the M201A1 ignitor used is on the explosives material list(actually its the chemical compound used in the ignitor) and therefore is now regulated. Whats on the open market on gunbroker is out of ALS control to monitor but ALS stocking distributors need to follow the rules he also told me. He said it is not some ALS BS to try and limit these things and that they are already started to work on a new ignitor because they are already loosing out on the market because paintball, sky divers, air soft people, and other training companies are not able to buy them with out without a explosives license or equivalent paperwork or better. These things still can be bought and found but the price is only going to go through the roof on them I say some on gunbroker for $65 and I buy them through our distributor for 25-35 a piece. It sucks
 yes but hopefully ALS comes up with a good alternative.
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Posted: 1/13/2011 10:05:21 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
does anyone actually pay attention to the batf? If you enjoy prison anal rape, it might not be important to know what's going on with the ATF. |
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Posted: 1/13/2011 10:07:37 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
does anyone actually pay attention to the batf? If you enjoy prison anal rape, it might not be important to know what's going on with the ATF. Nicely put! |
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Posted: 1/13/2011 10:10:36 AM EDT
[#27]
Hey what's new, the ATF doesn't seem to mind making shit up as it goes along.
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Posted: 1/13/2011 10:22:50 AM EDT
[#28]
Really? I haven't looked at them in some time, I used to see them on ammotogo.
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Posted: 1/13/2011 10:36:39 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sure they can. There is an exemption for sporting arms/firearms use. Medicine too. Black powder for example is on the list but if you say you are using it for your "sporting" muzzle loader then you are allowed/exempted 50 pounds before the rule kicks in. Small amounts of nitrocellulose, RDX, nitroglycerine, etc. in powders & primers are exempt. If you have 45 pounds of black powder and no black powder guns, you may have some explaining to do. Here is the latest list: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-28874.pdf There is no "sporting use" for military type smoke grenades. Lol, any paintballer/airsofter might say otherwise.... Those fuckers can get nasty. Chemical warfare on the paintball field. Castle Conquest at EMR finally had to ban the smoke grenades because people were filling up the walls with smoke. It was fucking with some people's asthma and making everyone cough and wheeze just to get to their firing positions. While I'm glad we banned them for that game, they do have a purpose in games other than all-CQB. They're fun to use, it looks cool as hell and they are "tactically" useful. But most paintballers use expired lifeboat smoke because they're cheaper (vessel owners can't use them once the expiration date pops). Yeah, it's international orange instead of grey, but whatever. |
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Posted: 1/13/2011 10:41:29 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sure they can. There is an exemption for sporting arms/firearms use. Medicine too. Black powder for example is on the list but if you say you are using it for your "sporting" muzzle loader then you are allowed/exempted 50 pounds before the rule kicks in. Small amounts of nitrocellulose, RDX, nitroglycerine, etc. in powders & primers are exempt. If you have 45 pounds of black powder and no black powder guns, you may have some explaining to do. Here is the latest list: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-28874.pdf There is no "sporting use" for military type smoke grenades. Lol, any paintballer/airsofter might say otherwise.... Those fuckers can get nasty. Chemical warfare on the paintball field. Castle Conquest at EMR finally had to ban the smoke grenades because people were filling up the walls with smoke. It was fucking with some people's asthma and making everyone cough and wheeze just to get to their firing positions. While I'm glad we banned them for that game, they do have a purpose in games other than all-CQB. They're fun to use, it looks cool as hell and they are "tactically" useful. But most paintballers use expired lifeboat smoke because they're cheaper (vessel owners can't use them once the expiration date pops). Yeah, it's international orange instead of grey, but whatever. Just a heads up, that shit can be really bad for you |
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Posted: 1/13/2011 10:52:01 AM EDT
[#31]
According to Mike Aultman THE ALS guy the ruling has them reclassified as an EXPLOSIVE and thus you have to have a storage magazine and an explosives license to purchase.
Doubt ALS would decide to eliminate a source of revenue without a cause. NOT a Destructive Device. |
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Posted: 1/13/2011 10:57:25 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
There are plenty of civillian smoke devices for all the posers. They don't get to define "sporting". Neither do I. My USAS-12 has plenty of "sporting" in it but I had to register it as a DD when Treasury said otherwise. Same with my Striker-12. Streetsweeping is a fun game played all over the world, but here it is no longer "sporting" so I had to register it too. Thank you Lloyd Bensen. What kind of "posering" do you do with the USAS12 and Street Sweeper? |
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Posted: 1/13/2011 10:58:11 AM EDT
[#33]
Damn it, that shit was on my list of items to buy before the apocalypse.
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Posted: 1/13/2011 11:03:02 AM EDT
[#34]
The fuze alone is classified as "explosive material" , no one knows if you now have to have an explosives license and a certified magazine to store these "explosive meterials"
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Posted: 1/13/2011 11:03:40 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Damn it, that shit was on my list of items to buy before the apocalypse. You are now doomed, sorry |
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Posted: 1/13/2011 11:28:03 AM EDT
[#36]
I was annoyed and baffled when they designated flashbangs as DDs. They aren't intended to destroy anything, and if they are in fact destructive devices, what in the blue fuck is the Mayberry PD doing throwing them in people's houses?
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Posted: 1/13/2011 11:31:04 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
There are plenty of civillian smoke devices for all the posers. They don't get to define "sporting". Neither do I. My USAS-12 has plenty of "sporting" in it but I had to register it as a DD when Treasury said otherwise. Same with my Striker-12. Streetsweeping is a fun game played all over the world, but here it is no longer "sporting" so I had to register it too. Thank you Lloyd Bensen. What kind of "posering" do you do with the USAS12 and Street Sweeper? Any kind I want.
They are investment quality firearms and pretty much anything the .gov wants to ban, I want to own (except for the Cobray StreetSweeper...it was a piece of crap so I got rid of it). As far as military smoke grenades go, or flashbangs or any other explosives, I can buy all I want...legally. 
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Posted: 1/13/2011 11:33:04 AM EDT
[#38]
None the less, they can and sometimes do. Fire is a big danger with them.
Quoted: I was annoyed and baffled when they designated flashbangs as DDs. They aren't intended to destroy anything |
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Posted: 1/13/2011 11:34:12 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: Damn it, that shit was on my list of items to buy before the apocalypse. Me too. And hiking. Are 40mm smokes still good to go? My M4 could use a 203 launcher. |
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Posted: 1/13/2011 11:35:46 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sure they can. There is an exemption for sporting arms/firearms use. Medicine too. Black powder for example is on the list but if you say you are using it for your "sporting" muzzle loader then you are allowed/exempted 50 pounds before the rule kicks in. Small amounts of nitrocellulose, RDX, nitroglycerine, etc. in powders & primers are exempt. If you have 45 pounds of black powder and no black powder guns, you may have some explaining to do. Here is the latest list: http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2010/pdf/2010-28874.pdf There is no "sporting use" for military type smoke grenades. Lol, any paintballer/airsofter might say otherwise.... Those fuckers can get nasty. Chemical warfare on the paintball field. Castle Conquest at EMR finally had to ban the smoke grenades because people were filling up the walls with smoke. It was fucking with some people's asthma and making everyone cough and wheeze just to get to their firing positions. While I'm glad we banned them for that game, they do have a purpose in games other than all-CQB. They're fun to use, it looks cool as hell and they are "tactically" useful. But most paintballers use expired lifeboat smoke because they're cheaper (vessel owners can't use them once the expiration date pops). Yeah, it's international orange instead of grey, but whatever. Just a heads up, that shit can be really bad for you So we found out. After the game everyone came out of the castle hacking, coughing, crying and wheezing, we decided that over 1000 people with dozens of smoke grenades in an area just larger than 4 acres is too tight to be messing around with that shit. I think it was the right call. Not to mention the hazards of people unable to see where they're going or what they're shooting at. |
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Posted: 1/13/2011 11:40:43 AM EDT
[#41]
ost
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Posted: 1/13/2011 11:42:08 AM EDT
[#42]
It isn't the explosive (there really isn't an explosive) bur rather the fuse assembly which could be used in an improvised explosive device. Never mind the delay is 2 seconds or so which would make such IED very dangerous.
Real hand grenade fuses have longer delays (5 seconds) and a hefty dose of primary explosive in the cap. Smoke fuses only have a hot squib which bathes the interior tunnel of the smoke composition with flame. |
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Posted: 1/13/2011 11:44:32 AM EDT
[#43]
HC smoke will make you sick with fume fever. Bad juju, don't breathe it.
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Posted: 1/13/2011 11:44:53 AM EDT
[#44]
We need to disband the ATF. After we ass rape them in court under charges of treason.  |
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Posted: 1/13/2011 11:47:32 AM EDT
[#45]
So what's the alternative?
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Posted: 1/13/2011 11:50:22 AM EDT
[#46]
Fuck I wanted to buy some
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Posted: 1/13/2011 11:50:38 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
So what's the alternative? Youtube |
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Posted: 1/13/2011 12:06:32 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
HC smoke will make you sick with fume fever. Bad juju, don't breathe it. Yup. We have a whole manual devoted to the Toxic Effects of pyrotechnics. It's a thrilling read 
The smoke composition in an M18 puts off quite a few different nasty chemicals that I recognize by name. Most cause lung damage. Shipboard pyro used for distress has about 40 different chemicals with a bunch of numbers and really long words. All I know is the hazard codes following them tell of high risk of cancer and permanent lung damage if inhaled |
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Posted: 1/13/2011 3:22:06 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
They are investment quality firearms So you must be an FFL if you are buying guns for business purposes.......
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