Operation Red Wings - Page 2

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Posted: 1/7/2011 3:10:23 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:

Ok then, explain this:

http://www.navy.mil/moh/mpmurphy/pg.html

And this:

http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=33037

And this:

http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=32528

And all the other official stories and monuments built....

I'm just saying - who cares about the specific name - doesn't change the story. It's a name. Having an S or not on the end doesn't change a thing.

Not necessarily;

http://navywannabe.blogspot.com/2010/08/travel-day.html

You are right - it doesn't change the story. However, you indicated above that his misnaming the operation could be used as supporting evidence to prove he didn't have a basic grasp on the situation.

Given the evidence on both sides of the coin, can anyone really argue which is correct?

[EDITED for stupid URL linking]

Posted: 1/7/2011 3:17:36 PM EDT

[#2]

Good article, though the Gazette has been disappointing lately.

Posted: 1/7/2011 3:18:50 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Posted by a SEAL on another forum. Eye opening...

....... Marcus Luttrell's book omits some very significant events entirely and inserts events or issues which never happened. I suppose Marcus has his own reasons for saying what he says, and he alone will carry the burden for telling the story in the way in which he chose. I saw a very different reality in the wake of that disasterous mission and I will not follow the "company line" on this one when there is this much at stake. Every contributing factor that led to this horrible mission exists in the Teams today because it has not been honestly assessed and had the lessons learned promulgated throughout the SEAL community. Instead, the Navy threw medals at it. Not one person has been reprimanded for their negligence or lack of leadership (possibly because some of them are dead). Many people failed to properly plan and execute that mission, but no single person is more responsible than LT Michael Murphy.

When I think of Medal of Honor recipients I think of Tom Norris, Mike Thornton, Gary Gordon, Randy Shughart, Sammy Davis...etc. Mike Murphy falls far short of that crowd and the Teams lessen themselves by making him out to be someone of that ilk. Murphy is actually almost a polar opposite, in my mind.

Marcus will have to tell the story version he chose over and over again for the rest of his life. I am not inclined to support his detailed account when I saw too much to contradict that. It's easier to remove specific details which are classified than to recall a fable. What exactly remains classified about that mission anyway?

In the end, maybe the truth will surface anyway. No one will care because the Medals are all handed out....probably some other young frogmen will be dead because they didn't benefit from the lessons learned, too.

Frogman

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Originally Posted by Frogman
Well, the Teams are definately evolving...into what I am not certain.

LT Murphy will be the first SEAL to receive the Medal Of Honor for being primarily responsible for killing himself and 10 other SEALs and 8 160th SOAR operators. The mission he designed for himself was not accomplished. Maybe one family feels better because medals got thrown at this mess, but a lot of other families are not pleased. In my opinion the SEAL Teams are diminished when we elevate someone who died tragically (though they, themselves, are mostly to blame) to a status they did not rate in life.

I don't think we should name buildings after people who were killed by their own negligence, either, no matter how much we liked them personally. I know he was well liked by many SEALs. He also shot one of his own men in training. We use to move men who shot another SEAL out of the Team, at least for a while. The reason why was that those types of incidents usually indicated a lack of maturity and reasoning skills. He continued on and contrbuted to the greatest loss of life in a single day in SEAL Team history.

Maybe his picture should be on the wall of every SEAL Team quarterdeck...but not in the same display area as SEAL MOH winners, Kerry, Norris and Thornton.

I sat at the graves of Mike McGreevy and Jeff Lucas in Arlington two weeks ago and communicated. They died on the helicopter coming to rescue Murphy's bunch. They (nor, I for that matter) didn't have to like him or agree with him tactically to get on that helo and risk every tomorrow. That's just what you do in that situation. Both of those guys were better operators than Murphy, in my opnion.

Frogman

Thanks for reposting those comments as they are the comments that I was referring to.

Posted: 1/7/2011 3:25:15 PM EDT

[#4]

maybe they should just talk to someone who was really there.

I had the misfortune of watching the CH47 getting shot down in realtime Predator feed.

Not nearly as unfortunate as what happened to those who were in the fight.

Posted: 1/7/2011 3:25:43 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Oh man. Note to self: Read post first. I thought you were talking about the other "Red Wings".

same here!

Posted: 1/7/2011 3:27:49 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
maybe they should just talk to someone who was really there.

I had the misfortune of watching the CH47 getting shot down in realtime Predator feed.

Not nearly as unfortunate as what happened to those who were in the fight.

Did you see 80-150 Taliban combing the hills looking for the surviving SEAL?

Posted: 1/7/2011 3:37:19 PM EDT

[#7]

Tag

Posted: 1/7/2011 3:40:48 PM EDT

[#8]

Cliffs notes? What I'm getting here is that the SEALs were at fault for the disaster on the operation and that the Navy played it off with medals and so on. Then Luttrell was complicit in fabricating parts of the story for a book and movie deal. Is that about the size of it?

Posted: 1/7/2011 3:41:41 PM EDT

[#9]

So where are the guys from the other thread?
They don't want to post here?

Posted: 1/7/2011 3:42:28 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:

You guys need to understand that Luttrell was THE ONLY surviving member of his team and that means that we will probably never really know the exact events as they tragically transpired for those operators. The biggest WTF moment I had with the book was when they were compromised by the Afghan herders and simply let them go, as it was told. What kind of SOF recon element goes into combat without fucking wrist-restraints? At the very least, I would have cut some webbing or para-cord off my gear to bind those fuckers' hands and feet! A weapon sling - ANYTHING to keep them from just walking away with the whereabouts of my team freshly in their minds. I know some of my fellow ARFcommers may accuse me of quarterbacking the operation safely within the confines of my home, but it just did not make sense to me when I read that part of the book.

I also remember reading in a related Red Wings thread that several ARFcommers who've spent time downrange claimed the SEALs they saw and/or worked with didn't really have their shit together unlike other SOF operators. With that in mind, I believe I once heard that Lt. Murphy had been involved in a friendly-fire incident during a live-fire training exercise shortly before undertaking Operation Red Wings. Can anybody confirm or elaborate on any of that?

Again, I'm by no means claiming to be an expert on these matters, nor am I seeking to smear the reputations of such brave men as these operators were. I just want to learn.

RIP to those lost in Operation Red Wings.

It has happened before. Once with a SF team in Iraq in the first Iraq war. Can't recall exact facts.

Bravo Two Zero, the SAS mission to hunt SCUDs led by Andy McNabb. According to his book, their cover was blown TWICE by goat herders...

Posted: 1/7/2011 3:42:50 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:

maybe they should just talk to someone who was really there.

I had the misfortune of watching the CH47 getting shot down in realtime Predator feed.

Not nearly as unfortunate as what happened to those who were in the fight.

Did you see 80-150 Taliban combing the hills looking for the surviving SEAL?

This please.

Posted: 1/7/2011 3:53:01 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
maybe they should just talk to someone who was really there.

I had the misfortune of watching the CH47 getting shot down in realtime Predator feed.

Not nearly as unfortunate as what happened to those who were in the fight.

Did you see 80-150 Taliban combing the hills looking for the surviving SEAL?

This please.

This please.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Posted: 1/7/2011 4:00:06 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
maybe they should just talk to someone who was really there.

I had the misfortune of watching the CH47 getting shot down in realtime Predator feed.

Not nearly as unfortunate as what happened to those who were in the fight.

Did you see 80-150 Taliban combing the hills looking for the surviving SEAL?

This please.

This please.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

We beg of you...

Posted: 1/7/2011 4:01:57 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Too many words

Cliff notes? I just finished Lone Survivor last night, I don't feel like reading another book on it just yet.

The Cliffs Notes is that the book Lone Survivor is VERY loosely based on the actual events that occurred.

I'd say! 8 - 10 Taliban stomp the shit out of 4 SEALS?

I had 6 ANP pin down a DEV GRU team in the middle of the night.

Posted: 1/7/2011 4:03:16 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Too many words

Cliff notes? I just finished Lone Survivor last night, I don't feel like reading another book on it just yet.

The Cliffs Notes is that the book Lone Survivor is VERY loosely based on the actual events that occurred.

I'd say! 8 - 10 Taliban stomp the shit out of 4 SEALS?

I had 6 ANP pin down a DEV GRU team in the middle of the night.

Middle of the night and middle of the day are two very different scenarios when confronting an unknown force

Posted: 1/7/2011 4:15:57 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Too many words

Cliff notes? I just finished Lone Survivor last night, I don't feel like reading another book on it just yet.

The Cliffs Notes is that the book Lone Survivor is VERY loosely based on the actual events that occurred.

I'd say! 8 - 10 Taliban stomp the shit out of 4 SEALS?

I had 6 ANP pin down a DEV GRU team in the middle of the night.

Middle of the night and middle of the day are two very different scenarios when confronting an unknown force

They could have known had they asked.
But don't worry, happy ending. they called in an AC-130 and killed 6 police and didn't get their target. No Tier 1 operators were harmed in the making of this goat fuck.

Posted: 1/7/2011 4:21:07 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'd say! 8 - 10 Taliban stomp the shit out of 4 SEALS?

I had 6 ANP pin down a DEV GRU team in the middle of the night.

Middle of the night and middle of the day are two very different scenarios when confronting an unknown force

I was under the impression that "Tier 1" operators owned the night.

Quoted:
They could have known had they asked.
But don't worry, happy ending. they called in an AC-130 and killed 6 police and didn't get their target. No Tier 1 operators were harmed in the making of this goat fuck.

ETA: Well with a little help from Spectre, apparently they do own the night!

Posted: 1/7/2011 4:45:36 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Red WING

Red WING

When did the name magically change to Red WINGS?!

Thats what I was going to say.

WTF kind of piece is this if the guy can't even get the name of the Op right?

He's claiming the name was changed....

ETA: Don't buy it. Take it with a grain of salt. Reads too much of someone with an opinion or bias then fact (Like I said above the guy has a book of his own to sell).

When was it ever operation Red Wing? The series of operations were named after American sports teams...

Plenty of times it has been called Red Wing officially and plenty of memorials made with the name "Red Wing". Even Official Memorials.

This is the first I've ever heard it called "Red Wings".

Could be called either or - doesn't matter and doesn't lend any more credence to this particular story.

ETA (Again): Maybe it was Red Wing on the Navy side and Red Wings on the Marine side?

It points to the fat the NAVSOF often doesn't go deep into the planning of its operations and I have no doubt that Luttrell and his Team mates thought it was "Red Wing." Because if you have ever dealt with SEALs you would quickly discover they (normally the younger ones) often discount all those who don't wear tridents.

Posted: 1/7/2011 5:06:06 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Red WING

Red WING

When did the name magically change to Red WINGS?!

Thats what I was going to say.

WTF kind of piece is this if the guy can't even get the name of the Op right?

He's claiming the name was changed....

ETA: Don't buy it. Take it with a grain of salt. Reads too much of someone with an opinion or bias then fact (Like I said above the guy has a book of his own to sell).

When was it ever operation Red Wing? The series of operations were named after American sports teams...

Plenty of times it has been called Red Wing officially and plenty of memorials made with the name "Red Wing". Even Official Memorials.

This is the first I've ever heard it called "Red Wings".

Could be called either or - doesn't matter and doesn't lend any more credence to this particular story.

ETA (Again): Maybe it was Red Wing on the Navy side and Red Wings on the Marine side?

It points to the fat the NAVSOF often doesn't go deep into the planning of its operations and I have no doubt that Luttrell and his Team mates thought it was "Red Wing." Because if you have ever dealt with SEALs you would quickly discover they (normally the younger ones) often discount all those who don't wear tridents.

It wouldn't surprise me if the "S" was dropped by a PA officer in an effort to avoid the obvious innuendo.

Posted: 1/7/2011 5:08:45 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Posted by a SEAL on another forum. Eye opening...

....... Marcus Luttrell's book omits some very significant events entirely and inserts events or issues which never happened. I suppose Marcus has his own reasons for saying what he says, and he alone will carry the burden for telling the story in the way in which he chose. I saw a very different reality in the wake of that disasterous mission and I will not follow the "company line" on this one when there is this much at stake. Every contributing factor that led to this horrible mission exists in the Teams today because it has not been honestly assessed and had the lessons learned promulgated throughout the SEAL community. Instead, the Navy threw medals at it. Not one person has been reprimanded for their negligence or lack of leadership (possibly because some of them are dead). Many people failed to properly plan and execute that mission, but no single person is more responsible than LT Michael Murphy.

When I think of Medal of Honor recipients I think of Tom Norris, Mike Thornton, Gary Gordon, Randy Shughart, Sammy Davis...etc. Mike Murphy falls far short of that crowd and the Teams lessen themselves by making him out to be someone of that ilk. Murphy is actually almost a polar opposite, in my mind.

Marcus will have to tell the story version he chose over and over again for the rest of his life. I am not inclined to support his detailed account when I saw too much to contradict that. It's easier to remove specific details which are classified than to recall a fable. What exactly remains classified about that mission anyway?

In the end, maybe the truth will surface anyway. No one will care because the Medals are all handed out....probably some other young frogmen will be dead because they didn't benefit from the lessons learned, too.

Frogman

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Originally Posted by Frogman
Well, the Teams are definately evolving...into what I am not certain.

LT Murphy will be the first SEAL to receive the Medal Of Honor for being primarily responsible for killing himself and 10 other SEALs and 8 160th SOAR operators. The mission he designed for himself was not accomplished. Maybe one family feels better because medals got thrown at this mess, but a lot of other families are not pleased. In my opinion the SEAL Teams are diminished when we elevate someone who died tragically (though they, themselves, are mostly to blame) to a status they did not rate in life.

I don't think we should name buildings after people who were killed by their own negligence, either, no matter how much we liked them personally. I know he was well liked by many SEALs. He also shot one of his own men in training. We use to move men who shot another SEAL out of the Team, at least for a while. The reason why was that those types of incidents usually indicated a lack of maturity and reasoning skills. He continued on and contrbuted to the greatest loss of life in a single day in SEAL Team history.

Maybe his picture should be on the wall of every SEAL Team quarterdeck...but not in the same display area as SEAL MOH winners, Kerry, Norris and Thornton.

I sat at the graves of Mike McGreevy and Jeff Lucas in Arlington two weeks ago and communicated. They died on the helicopter coming to rescue Murphy's bunch. They (nor, I for that matter) didn't have to like him or agree with him tactically to get on that helo and risk every tomorrow. That's just what you do in that situation. Both of those guys were better operators than Murphy, in my opnion.

Frogman

Thanks for reposting those comments as they are the comments that I was referring to.

Seriously? Bob Kerry? You've got to be fucking kidding me.

Posted: 1/7/2011 5:18:10 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Red WING

Red WING

When did the name magically change to Red WINGS?!

Thats what I was going to say.

WTF kind of piece is this if the guy can't even get the name of the Op right?

He's claiming the name was changed....

ETA: Don't buy it. Take it with a grain of salt. Reads too much of someone with an opinion or bias then fact (Like I said above the guy has a book of his own to sell).

When was it ever operation Red Wing? The series of operations were named after American sports teams...

Plenty of times it has been called Red Wing officially and plenty of memorials made with the name "Red Wing". Even Official Memorials.

This is the first I've ever heard it called "Red Wings".

Could be called either or - doesn't matter and doesn't lend any more credence to this particular story.

ETA (Again): Maybe it was Red Wing on the Navy side and Red Wings on the Marine side?

It points to the fat the NAVSOF often doesn't go deep into the planning of its operations and I have no doubt that Luttrell and his Team mates thought it was "Red Wing." Because if you have ever dealt with SEALs you would quickly discover they (normally the younger ones) often discount all those who don't wear tridents.

VERY familiar with them.

That's my best guess - no one really cared about red wing or red wings. Such a minor difference it doesn't matter in the big picture. Hence Navy guys said one thing and Marines another.

Don't think its part of some huge conspiracy to change the story or events as the author alludes to.

ETA: I guess mostly I'm upset (arguing) because this is not shit that needs to be discussed publicly and discredit the dead. It just feels like the author in the OP is trying to hype up interest to his book or story of the events, and in doing so it discredits those who have died. Many will never know WHICH side is the most accurate. I've said before, some details were probably hyped up for the sake of a story, but when you make that public to the public it tends to discredit the people who have died and the people who continue to do the job. If lessons are to learned they need to be learned behind closed doors for the time being (even though they apparently have not).

Just my useless 2cents.

Posted: 1/7/2011 5:19:44 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Posted by a SEAL on another forum. Eye opening...

....... Marcus Luttrell's book omits some very significant events entirely and inserts events or issues which never happened. I suppose Marcus has his own reasons for saying what he says, and he alone will carry the burden for telling the story in the way in which he chose. I saw a very different reality in the wake of that disasterous mission and I will not follow the "company line" on this one when there is this much at stake. Every contributing factor that led to this horrible mission exists in the Teams today because it has not been honestly assessed and had the lessons learned promulgated throughout the SEAL community. Instead, the Navy threw medals at it. Not one person has been reprimanded for their negligence or lack of leadership (possibly because some of them are dead). Many people failed to properly plan and execute that mission, but no single person is more responsible than LT Michael Murphy.

When I think of Medal of Honor recipients I think of Tom Norris, Mike Thornton, Gary Gordon, Randy Shughart, Sammy Davis...etc. Mike Murphy falls far short of that crowd and the Teams lessen themselves by making him out to be someone of that ilk. Murphy is actually almost a polar opposite, in my mind.

Marcus will have to tell the story version he chose over and over again for the rest of his life. I am not inclined to support his detailed account when I saw too much to contradict that. It's easier to remove specific details which are classified than to recall a fable. What exactly remains classified about that mission anyway?

In the end, maybe the truth will surface anyway. No one will care because the Medals are all handed out....probably some other young frogmen will be dead because they didn't benefit from the lessons learned, too.

Frogman

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Originally Posted by Frogman
Well, the Teams are definately evolving...into what I am not certain.

LT Murphy will be the first SEAL to receive the Medal Of Honor for being primarily responsible for killing himself and 10 other SEALs and 8 160th SOAR operators. The mission he designed for himself was not accomplished. Maybe one family feels better because medals got thrown at this mess, but a lot of other families are not pleased. In my opinion the SEAL Teams are diminished when we elevate someone who died tragically (though they, themselves, are mostly to blame) to a status they did not rate in life.

I don't think we should name buildings after people who were killed by their own negligence, either, no matter how much we liked them personally. I know he was well liked by many SEALs. He also shot one of his own men in training. We use to move men who shot another SEAL out of the Team, at least for a while. The reason why was that those types of incidents usually indicated a lack of maturity and reasoning skills. He continued on and contrbuted to the greatest loss of life in a single day in SEAL Team history.

Maybe his picture should be on the wall of every SEAL Team quarterdeck...but not in the same display area as SEAL MOH winners, Kerry, Norris and Thornton.

I sat at the graves of Mike McGreevy and Jeff Lucas in Arlington two weeks ago and communicated. They died on the helicopter coming to rescue Murphy's bunch. They (nor, I for that matter) didn't have to like him or agree with him tactically to get on that helo and risk every tomorrow. That's just what you do in that situation. Both of those guys were better operators than Murphy, in my opnion.

Frogman

Thanks for reposting those comments as they are the comments that I was referring to.

Seriously? Bob Kerry? You've got to be fucking kidding me.

Bob KerrEy.
Same liberal douchebag, but a certifiable hero.

Posted: 1/7/2011 5:44:05 PM EDT

[#23]

The article is condensed from the book by Ed Darak, Victory Point.

Read it, it will all then be clear. He talks about the change in command and the change in SOP that occured just before Red Wings, this is what doomed the mission.

Then goes into operation Whalers that went down after he dust settled and how the AQers that upset Red Wings were dispatched.

Posted: 1/7/2011 5:51:42 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Then goes into operation Whalers that went down after he dust settled and how the AQers that upset Red Wings were dispatched.

Too bad there ain't a video up on the web about that. Details for us who haven't read the book?

Posted: 1/7/2011 6:08:27 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Then goes into operation Whalers that went down after he dust settled and how the AQers that upset Red Wings were dispatched.

Too bad there ain't a video up on the web about that. Details for us who haven't read the book?

Marines did an extended hammer/anvil op killed most drove others back into Pakistan. Everything that went bad in Red Wings went right in Whalers; the Marines were allowed to to their thing and they did it well.

Posted: 1/7/2011 6:16:07 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Posted by a SEAL on another forum. Eye opening...

....... Marcus Luttrell's book omits some very significant events entirely and inserts events or issues which never happened. I suppose Marcus has his own reasons for saying what he says, and he alone will carry the burden for telling the story in the way in which he chose. I saw a very different reality in the wake of that disasterous mission and I will not follow the "company line" on this one when there is this much at stake. Every contributing factor that led to this horrible mission exists in the Teams today because it has not been honestly assessed and had the lessons learned promulgated throughout the SEAL community. Instead, the Navy threw medals at it. Not one person has been reprimanded for their negligence or lack of leadership (possibly because some of them are dead). Many people failed to properly plan and execute that mission, but no single person is more responsible than LT Michael Murphy.

When I think of Medal of Honor recipients I think of Tom Norris, Mike Thornton, Gary Gordon, Randy Shughart, Sammy Davis...etc. Mike Murphy falls far short of that crowd and the Teams lessen themselves by making him out to be someone of that ilk. Murphy is actually almost a polar opposite, in my mind.

Marcus will have to tell the story version he chose over and over again for the rest of his life. I am not inclined to support his detailed account when I saw too much to contradict that. It's easier to remove specific details which are classified than to recall a fable. What exactly remains classified about that mission anyway?

In the end, maybe the truth will surface anyway. No one will care because the Medals are all handed out....probably some other young frogmen will be dead because they didn't benefit from the lessons learned, too.

Frogman

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Originally Posted by Frogman
Well, the Teams are definately evolving...into what I am not certain.

LT Murphy will be the first SEAL to receive the Medal Of Honor for being primarily responsible for killing himself and 10 other SEALs and 8 160th SOAR operators. The mission he designed for himself was not accomplished. Maybe one family feels better because medals got thrown at this mess, but a lot of other families are not pleased. In my opinion the SEAL Teams are diminished when we elevate someone who died tragically (though they, themselves, are mostly to blame) to a status they did not rate in life.

I don't think we should name buildings after people who were killed by their own negligence, either, no matter how much we liked them personally. I know he was well liked by many SEALs. He also shot one of his own men in training. We use to move men who shot another SEAL out of the Team, at least for a while. The reason why was that those types of incidents usually indicated a lack of maturity and reasoning skills. He continued on and contrbuted to the greatest loss of life in a single day in SEAL Team history.

Maybe his picture should be on the wall of every SEAL Team quarterdeck...but not in the same display area as SEAL MOH winners, Kerry, Norris and Thornton.

I sat at the graves of Mike McGreevy and Jeff Lucas in Arlington two weeks ago and communicated. They died on the helicopter coming to rescue Murphy's bunch. They (nor, I for that matter) didn't have to like him or agree with him tactically to get on that helo and risk every tomorrow. That's just what you do in that situation. Both of those guys were better operators than Murphy, in my opnion.

Frogman

Thanks for reposting those comments as they are the comments that I was referring to.

Seriously? Bob Kerry? You've got to be fucking kidding me.

Bob KerrEy.
Same liberal douchebag, but a certifiable hero.

Yep. Guy ran a kick ass operation with his lower leg missing. No arguing with that.

As for the original post, I think the only people that need to be dissecting what really happened are in the SOF community. For me personally, a bunch of bad ass dudes went out, made some mistakes, made some heroic sacrifices, and will hopefuly improve the quality of US military operations in the future.

Much respect.

Posted: 1/7/2011 6:16:45 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'd say! 8 - 10 Taliban stomp the shit out of 4 SEALS?

I had 6 ANP pin down a DEV GRU team in the middle of the night.

Middle of the night and middle of the day are two very different scenarios when confronting an unknown force

I was under the impression that "Tier 1" operators owned the night.

Quoted:
They could have known had they asked.
But don't worry, happy ending. they called in an AC-130 and killed 6 police and didn't get their target. No Tier 1 operators were harmed in the making of this goat fuck.

ETA: Well with a little help from Spectre, apparently they do own the night!

Yeah because Blue on Blue incident are sooooooo funny.

Back on topic: I'm sure we all know this one...When you speak the truth, have one foot in the stirrup. Sure does apply on ARFCOM.

The book may be Luttrell's honest memory of the battle. That being said, battles are EXTREMELY confusing and witnesses rarely agree on what they saw. Being that there is only one talking witness at this moment, the truth of the matter will be conjecture for some time to come. Or perhaps he felt obligated to make sure that the memories of his comrades was a honorable one. It would certainly be human to err so. I know I would consider it, were I him. Or perhaps the actual writer took some liberties with the story to make it more...enthralling. Either way its obvious that there is a disagreement on what really happened. Being that a MOH was awarded based solely on the word of one person, who memory is now being called into question, further investigation is certainly warranted.

Posted: 1/7/2011 6:22:53 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
My own personal Operation Red Wings was a success. It wasn't that hard to achieve, just a little gross.

Gross? GROSS???!!!! I used my teeth on the little string, Man! I was only 16 - - - she was, too! HONEST!

Posted: 1/7/2011 7:47:36 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'd say! 8 - 10 Taliban stomp the shit out of 4 SEALS?

I had 6 ANP pin down a DEV GRU team in the middle of the night.

Middle of the night and middle of the day are two very different scenarios when confronting an unknown force

I was under the impression that "Tier 1" operators owned the night.

Quoted:
They could have known had they asked.
But don't worry, happy ending. they called in an AC-130 and killed 6 police and didn't get their target. No Tier 1 operators were harmed in the making of this goat fuck.

ETA: Well with a little help from Spectre, apparently they do own the night!

Yeah because Blue on Blue incident are sooooooo funny.

Blue on blue? ANP = Afghan National Police? I'm not up to speed on all current abbreviations so that is my mistake. Didn't mean it that way.

Carry on.

Posted: 1/7/2011 7:51:06 PM EDT

[#30]

whole lot of agendas at play all the way around. I would take all with a large grain of salt. Nothing more needs said.

Posted: 1/7/2011 7:55:11 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'd say! 8 - 10 Taliban stomp the shit out of 4 SEALS?

I had 6 ANP pin down a DEV GRU team in the middle of the night.

Middle of the night and middle of the day are two very different scenarios when confronting an unknown force

I was under the impression that "Tier 1" operators owned the night.

Quoted:
They could have known had they asked.
But don't worry, happy ending. they called in an AC-130 and killed 6 police and didn't get their target. No Tier 1 operators were harmed in the making of this goat fuck.

ETA: Well with a little help from Spectre, apparently they do own the night!

Yeah because Blue on Blue incident are sooooooo funny.

Blue on blue? ANP = Afghan National Police? I'm not up to speed on all current abbreviations so that is my mistake. Didn't mean it that way.

Carry on.

ANP are, for the most part, on our side.

Posted: 1/7/2011 7:55:29 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'd say! 8 - 10 Taliban stomp the shit out of 4 SEALS?

I had 6 ANP pin down a DEV GRU team in the middle of the night.

Middle of the night and middle of the day are two very different scenarios when confronting an unknown force

I was under the impression that "Tier 1" operators owned the night.

Quoted:
They could have known had they asked.
But don't worry, happy ending. they called in an AC-130 and killed 6 police and didn't get their target. No Tier 1 operators were harmed in the making of this goat fuck.

ETA: Well with a little help from Spectre, apparently they do own the night!

Yeah because Blue on Blue incident are sooooooo funny.

Back on topic: I'm sure we all know this one...When you speak the truth, have one foot in the stirrup. Sure does apply on ARFCOM.

The book may be Luttrell's honest memory of the battle. That being said, battles are EXTREMELY confusing and witnesses rarely agree on what they saw. Being that there is only one talking witness at this moment, the truth of the matter will be conjecture for some time to come. Or perhaps he felt obligated to make sure that the memories of his comrades was a honorable one. It would certainly be human to err so. I know I would consider it, were I him. Or perhaps the actual writer took some liberties with the story to make it more...enthralling. Either way its obvious that there is a disagreement on what really happened. Being that a MOH was awarded based solely on the word of one person, who memory is now being called into question, further investigation is certainly warranted.

Murphy's MOH wasn't based on the book.

Posted: 1/7/2011 8:02:20 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'd say! 8 - 10 Taliban stomp the shit out of 4 SEALS?

I had 6 ANP pin down a DEV GRU team in the middle of the night.

Middle of the night and middle of the day are two very different scenarios when confronting an unknown force

I was under the impression that "Tier 1" operators owned the night.

Quoted:
They could have known had they asked.
But don't worry, happy ending. they called in an AC-130 and killed 6 police and didn't get their target. No Tier 1 operators were harmed in the making of this goat fuck.

ETA: Well with a little help from Spectre, apparently they do own the night!

Yeah because Blue on Blue incident are sooooooo funny.

Back on topic: I'm sure we all know this one...When you speak the truth, have one foot in the stirrup. Sure does apply on ARFCOM.

The book may be Luttrell's honest memory of the battle. That being said, battles are EXTREMELY confusing and witnesses rarely agree on what they saw. Being that there is only one talking witness at this moment, the truth of the matter will be conjecture for some time to come. Or perhaps he felt obligated to make sure that the memories of his comrades was a honorable one. It would certainly be human to err so. I know I would consider it, were I him. Or perhaps the actual writer took some liberties with the story to make it more...enthralling. Either way its obvious that there is a disagreement on what really happened. Being that a MOH was awarded based solely on the word of one person, who memory is now being called into question, further investigation is certainly warranted.

Murphy's MOH wasn't based on the book.

Im aware of that. However it is mostly based on Luttrell's testimony.

Posted: 1/7/2011 8:10:17 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'd say! 8 - 10 Taliban stomp the shit out of 4 SEALS?

I had 6 ANP pin down a DEV GRU team in the middle of the night.

Middle of the night and middle of the day are two very different scenarios when confronting an unknown force

I was under the impression that "Tier 1" operators owned the night.

Quoted:
They could have known had they asked.
But don't worry, happy ending. they called in an AC-130 and killed 6 police and didn't get their target. No Tier 1 operators were harmed in the making of this goat fuck.

ETA: Well with a little help from Spectre, apparently they do own the night!

Yeah because Blue on Blue incident are sooooooo funny.

Back on topic: I'm sure we all know this one...When you speak the truth, have one foot in the stirrup. Sure does apply on ARFCOM.

The book may be Luttrell's honest memory of the battle. That being said, battles are EXTREMELY confusing and witnesses rarely agree on what they saw. Being that there is only one talking witness at this moment, the truth of the matter will be conjecture for some time to come. Or perhaps he felt obligated to make sure that the memories of his comrades was a honorable one. It would certainly be human to err so. I know I would consider it, were I him. Or perhaps the actual writer took some liberties with the story to make it more...enthralling. Either way its obvious that there is a disagreement on what really happened. Being that a MOH was awarded based solely on the word of one person, who memory is now being called into question, further investigation is certainly warranted.

Murphy's MOH wasn't based on the book.

Im aware of that. However it is mostly based on Luttrell's testimony.

...and you'll see that Luttrell's official documents like the AAR are not crazy like the book. I think the exaggerated nature of the book stems from the writer more than Luttrell.

Posted: 1/7/2011 8:12:04 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'd say! 8 - 10 Taliban stomp the shit out of 4 SEALS?

I had 6 ANP pin down a DEV GRU team in the middle of the night.

Middle of the night and middle of the day are two very different scenarios when confronting an unknown force

I was under the impression that "Tier 1" operators owned the night.

Quoted:
They could have known had they asked.
But don't worry, happy ending. they called in an AC-130 and killed 6 police and didn't get their target. No Tier 1 operators were harmed in the making of this goat fuck.

ETA: Well with a little help from Spectre, apparently they do own the night!

Yeah because Blue on Blue incident are sooooooo funny.

Back on topic: I'm sure we all know this one...When you speak the truth, have one foot in the stirrup. Sure does apply on ARFCOM.

The book may be Luttrell's honest memory of the battle. That being said, battles are EXTREMELY confusing and witnesses rarely agree on what they saw. Being that there is only one talking witness at this moment, the truth of the matter will be conjecture for some time to come. Or perhaps he felt obligated to make sure that the memories of his comrades was a honorable one. It would certainly be human to err so. I know I would consider it, were I him. Or perhaps the actual writer took some liberties with the story to make it more...enthralling. Either way its obvious that there is a disagreement on what really happened. Being that a MOH was awarded based solely on the word of one person, who memory is now being called into question, further investigation is certainly warranted.

Murphy's MOH wasn't based on the book.

Im aware of that. However it is mostly based on Luttrell's testimony.

...and you'll see that Luttrell's official documents like the AAR are not crazy like the book. I think the exaggerated nature of the book stems from the writer more than Luttrell.

Which is what I put in my post.

Posted: 1/7/2011 8:25:58 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Oh man. Note to self: Read post first. I thought you were talking about the other "Red Wings".

Detroit hockey?

Posted: 1/7/2011 8:29:44 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:

I'd say! 8 - 10 Taliban stomp the shit out of 4 SEALS?

I had 6 ANP pin down a DEV GRU team in the middle of the night.

Middle of the night and middle of the day are two very different scenarios when confronting an unknown force

I was under the impression that "Tier 1" operators owned the night.

Quoted:

They could have known had they asked.

But don't worry, happy ending. they called in an AC-130 and killed 6 police and didn't get their target. No Tier 1 operators were harmed in the making of this goat fuck.

ETA: Well with a little help from Spectre, apparently they do own the night!

Yeah because Blue on Blue incident are sooooooo funny.

Back on topic: I'm sure we all know this one...When you speak the truth, have one foot in the stirrup. Sure does apply on ARFCOM.

The book may be Luttrell's honest memory of the battle. That being said, battles are EXTREMELY confusing and witnesses rarely agree on what they saw. Being that there is only one talking witness at this moment, the truth of the matter will be conjecture for some time to come. Or perhaps he felt obligated to make sure that the memories of his comrades was a honorable one. It would certainly be human to err so. I know I would consider it, were I him. Or perhaps the actual writer took some liberties with the story to make it more...enthralling. Either way its obvious that there is a disagreement on what really happened. Being that a MOH was awarded based solely on the word of one person, who memory is now being called into question, further investigation is certainly warranted.

Murphy's MOH wasn't based on the book.

Im aware of that. However it is mostly based on Luttrell's testimony.

The guy walked into the middle of open terrain while under intense fire and placed a phone call to get help. That's ballsy shit, and I'm sure that the guy on the other end could have verified it, had he not been killed in the Chinook.

Posted: 1/7/2011 8:31:56 PM EDT

[#38]

ETA: nm

Posted: 1/7/2011 8:52:27 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'd say! 8 - 10 Taliban stomp the shit out of 4 SEALS?

I had 6 ANP pin down a DEV GRU team in the middle of the night.

Middle of the night and middle of the day are two very different scenarios when confronting an unknown force

I was under the impression that "Tier 1" operators owned the night.

Quoted:
They could have known had they asked.
But don't worry, happy ending. they called in an AC-130 and killed 6 police and didn't get their target. No Tier 1 operators were harmed in the making of this goat fuck.

ETA: Well with a little help from Spectre, apparently they do own the night!

Yeah because Blue on Blue incident are sooooooo funny.

Back on topic: I'm sure we all know this one...When you speak the truth, have one foot in the stirrup. Sure does apply on ARFCOM.

The book may be Luttrell's honest memory of the battle. That being said, battles are EXTREMELY confusing and witnesses rarely agree on what they saw. Being that there is only one talking witness at this moment, the truth of the matter will be conjecture for some time to come. Or perhaps he felt obligated to make sure that the memories of his comrades was a honorable one. It would certainly be human to err so. I know I would consider it, were I him. Or perhaps the actual writer took some liberties with the story to make it more...enthralling. Either way its obvious that there is a disagreement on what really happened. Being that a MOH was awarded based solely on the word of one person, who memory is now being called into question, further investigation is certainly warranted.

Murphy's MOH wasn't based on the book.

Im aware of that. However it is mostly based on Luttrell's testimony.

The guy walked into the middle of open terrain while under intense fire and placed a phone call to get help. That's ballsy shit, and I'm sure that the guy on the other end could have verified it, had he not been killed in the Chinook.

According to whom? See my point? Im not the only one who thinks that something is not right here...
The other thread
Scan the thread for people in the know, who have reservations about what really happened out there. Also, mid page there is a photo of the area. Explain to me how moving a couple of meters into the open is going to get a SAT phone into operation? LT Murphy may very well deserve his MOH. But the whole thing doesnt seam to wash to me.

Posted: 1/7/2011 9:08:50 PM EDT

[#40]

read it and the point was what? the military covered up the operation( rather skewed the information in it). The SOF command took over a US Marine operation( first two phases in exchange for help)? The war in A-stan is a SF style of war and I'm sure the Marines where glad to have the SEALs. The comm break down?, it can happen with any kind of gear, getting found on a mission? happens. SEALs coming to the aid of other SEALS and taking a risk that ended in tragedy,..... it's war. "He who dares wins" risk is part of the job.

Posted: 1/7/2011 9:14:11 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
read it and the point was what? the military covered up the operation( rather skewed the information in it). The SOF command took over a US Marine operation( first two phases in exchange for help)? The war in A-stan is a SF style of war and I'm sure the Marines where glad to have the SEALs. The comm break down?, it can happen with any kind of gear, getting found on a mission? happens. SEALs coming to the aid of other SEALS and taking a risk that ended in tragedy,..... it's war. "He who dares wins" risk is part of the job.

SF and SEALs
Comparing footballs to nanotubes.
I don't know of any military organization that is happy to have SEALs.
The comm break down happened after the SEALs specifically did not take the advice of the marines.

A 148 is a great piece of kit. It is NOT a substitute for a PRC-117, however. Nor is an iridium

1st key is to not reinforce failure, but the MH-47 shoot down could have been dumb luck. Or it could have been a poor choice of LZs.

Posted: 1/7/2011 9:27:46 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Posted by a SEAL on another forum. Eye opening...

Originally Posted by Frogman
Well, the Teams are definately evolving...into what I am not certain.

LT Murphy will be the first SEAL to receive the Medal Of Honor for being primarily responsible for killing himself and 10 other SEALs and 8 160th SOAR operators. The mission he designed for himself was not accomplished. Maybe one family feels better because medals got thrown at this mess, but a lot of other families are not pleased. In my opinion the SEAL Teams are diminished when we elevate someone who died tragically (though they, themselves, are mostly to blame) to a status they did not rate in life.

I don't think we should name buildings after people who were killed by their own negligence, either, no matter how much we liked them personally. I know he was well liked by many SEALs. He also shot one of his own men in training. We use to move men who shot another SEAL out of the Team, at least for a while. The reason why was that those types of incidents usually indicated a lack of maturity and reasoning skills. He continued on and contrbuted to the greatest loss of life in a single day in SEAL Team history.

Maybe his picture should be on the wall of every SEAL Team quarterdeck...but not in the same display area as SEAL MOH winners, Kerry, Norris and Thornton.

I sat at the graves of Mike McGreevy and Jeff Lucas in Arlington two weeks ago and communicated. They died on the helicopter coming to rescue Murphy's bunch. They (nor, I for that matter) didn't have to like him or agree with him tactically to get on that helo and risk every tomorrow. That's just what you do in that situation. Both of those guys were better operators than Murphy, in my opnion.

Frogman

Jesus Christ. I'm not even sure what to say which is a good thing since I guess I have no business saying anything.

You sure took the words out of my mouth. I know enough to "stay in my lane" on matters like this, but reading these statements is startling.

Posted: 1/7/2011 9:45:35 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
read it and the point was what? the military covered up the operation( rather skewed the information in it). The SOF command took over a US Marine operation( first two phases in exchange for help)? The war in A-stan is a SF style of war and I'm sure the Marines where glad to have the SEALs. The comm break down?, it can happen with any kind of gear, getting found on a mission? happens. SEALs coming to the aid of other SEALS and taking a risk that ended in tragedy,..... it's war. "He who dares wins" risk is part of the job.

Well, my point was that it was a fucked up operation from the time that SOF strong armed their way into it and instead of picking it apart, they hushed it up and threw medals at it(which again, may be well deserved) which allowed even more fucked up accounts of the operation to be released. The major differance between our military and the majority of the rest of the world is that we dont shy away from our own mistakes. We break it down piece by piece and figure out what when right and what went wrong. In this case the detail still arent clear and its obviously leaving a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of folks on the .mil side. SEALs are some of the best warriors in the world, but they are not bullet proof nor unable to make mistakes sometimes. Shit always goes wrong on a mission, however you do everything in your power to mitigate those problems before you leave the wire. The single most fatal mistake they made could have been avoided if they had stopped and listened to the guys who owned that sector. There were also a lot of little errors that could have easily been avoided. Errors that I would have thought were above men of that caliber. Now maybe even if they had done it all right they still would have been comped and ambushed, but thats not what happened so there is a need to pick the operation apart not write books and make movies about it so everyone feels good about a epic disaster.

Posted: 1/7/2011 9:54:11 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:

read it and the point was what? the military covered up the operation( rather skewed the information in it). The SOF command took over a US Marine operation( first two phases in exchange for help)? The war in A-stan is a SF style of war and I'm sure the Marines where glad to have the SEALs. The comm break down?, it can happen with any kind of gear, getting found on a mission? happens. SEALs coming to the aid of other SEALS and taking a risk that ended in tragedy,..... it's war. "He who dares wins" risk is part of the job.

SF and SEALs

Comparing footballs to nanotubes.

I don't know of any military organization that is happy to have SEALs.

The comm break down happened after the SEALs specifically did not take the advice of the marines.

A 148 is a great piece of kit. It is NOT a substitute for a PRC-117, however. Nor is an iridium

1st key is to not reinforce failure, but the MH-47 shoot down could have been dumb luck. Or it could have been a poor choice of LZs.

Not a lot of places to drop off a dozen guys by helo on that mountain...and in the middle of the day, the Taliban probably had the place camped out after Murphy's team roped in the night before...

Posted: 1/7/2011 9:57:59 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:

Quoted:
read it and the point was what? the military covered up the operation( rather skewed the information in it). The SOF command took over a US Marine operation( first two phases in exchange for help)? The war in A-stan is a SF style of war and I'm sure the Marines where glad to have the SEALs. The comm break down?, it can happen with any kind of gear, getting found on a mission? happens. SEALs coming to the aid of other SEALS and taking a risk that ended in tragedy,..... it's war. "He who dares wins" risk is part of the job.

SF and SEALs
Comparing footballs to nanotubes.
I don't know of any military organization that is happy to have SEALs.
The comm break down happened after the SEALs specifically did not take the advice of the marines.

A 148 is a great piece of kit. It is NOT a substitute for a PRC-117, however. Nor is an iridium

1st key is to not reinforce failure, but the MH-47 shoot down could have been dumb luck. Or it could have been a poor choice of LZs.

Not a lot of places to drop off a dozen guys by helo on that mountain...and in the middle of the day, the Taliban probably had the place camped out after Murphy's team roped in the night before...

Yeah. Ideally you suck it up, insert in 2 klicks out and make the hump. You assume risk based upon the situation. Maybe they thought they had it? Again, it could have been a good LZ and taliban just got lucky.

Posted: 1/7/2011 10:02:40 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
Posted by a SEAL on another forum. Eye opening...

Originally Posted by Frogman
Well, the Teams are definately evolving...into what I am not certain.

LT Murphy will be the first SEAL to receive the Medal Of Honor for being primarily responsible for killing himself and 10 other SEALs and 8 160th SOAR operators. The mission he designed for himself was not accomplished. Maybe one family feels better because medals got thrown at this mess, but a lot of other families are not pleased. In my opinion the SEAL Teams are diminished when we elevate someone who died tragically (though they, themselves, are mostly to blame) to a status they did not rate in life.

I don't think we should name buildings after people who were killed by their own negligence, either, no matter how much we liked them personally. I know he was well liked by many SEALs. He also shot one of his own men in training. We use to move men who shot another SEAL out of the Team, at least for a while. The reason why was that those types of incidents usually indicated a lack of maturity and reasoning skills. He continued on and contrbuted to the greatest loss of life in a single day in SEAL Team history.

Maybe his picture should be on the wall of every SEAL Team quarterdeck...but not in the same display area as SEAL MOH winners, Kerry, Norris and Thornton.

I sat at the graves of Mike McGreevy and Jeff Lucas in Arlington two weeks ago and communicated. They died on the helicopter coming to rescue Murphy's bunch. They (nor, I for that matter) didn't have to like him or agree with him tactically to get on that helo and risk every tomorrow. That's just what you do in that situation. Both of those guys were better operators than Murphy, in my opnion.

Frogman

Wasnt there, but I will say that I saw that post on another board as well, as well, and it was made at about the same time as this incidemt, ie. several years ago. The author wrote abook and interviewed the USMC battalion in the AO. I dont see why a group of Marines would contradict a posthumous MoH citation out of spite or conjecture.

Posted: 1/7/2011 10:10:17 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
read it and the point was what? the military covered up the operation( rather skewed the information in it). The SOF command took over a US Marine operation( first two phases in exchange for help)? The war in A-stan is a SF style of war and I'm sure the Marines where glad to have the SEALs. The comm break down?, it can happen with any kind of gear, getting found on a mission? happens. SEALs coming to the aid of other SEALS and taking a risk that ended in tragedy,..... it's war. "He who dares wins" risk is part of the job.

SF and SEALs
Comparing footballs to nanotubes.
I don't know of any military organization that is happy to have SEALs.
The comm break down happened after the SEALs specifically did not take the advice of the marines.

A 148 is a great piece of kit. It is NOT a substitute for a PRC-117, however. Nor is an iridium

1st key is to not reinforce failure, but the MH-47 shoot down could have been dumb luck. Or it could have been a poor choice of LZs.

Were they trying to use the MBITR to reach the Marines' net down valley or with a TACSAT antenna?

Posted: 1/7/2011 10:24:47 PM EDT

[#48]

Operation Red wings is very easy to accomplish. Just stay north of the rip cord and all is good!

Posted: 1/7/2011 11:44:50 PM EDT

[#49]

Wow. Alot of armchair QB's that apparently witnessed the event first hand. At least, that is the impression I am getting from alot of the "operators" on here who have access to all of these files.

I'm also getting the vibe of a lot of contempt.

As for the author of the article, I have read some of his other articles/posts when he was getting ready for the book to be released, and he basically did everything but piss on the graves of the dead and call Luttrell's mother a whore. He has ZERO credibility with me, I don't care how good his info is.

Luttrell is the only living witness that was on the ground that wasn't a taliban fighter, so his word will have to suffice. Anything else is just Monday morning QB bullshit, unless the guy who claims to have been flying the predator drone is able to step up and give reliable testimony otherwise.

As for why they didn't use the radio, it is covered in the book. If you haven't read the book, then don't make assumptions when you are ill informed. The man with the radio was the first one killed and his body, and therefore the radio, was not in an area that could be easily reached, IIRC from the book.

Posted: 1/8/2011 12:57:03 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Wow I thought this was going to be about something complete different.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Operation Red Wings (Page 2 of 3)

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