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cn6145
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Posted: 4/22/2010 12:28:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/22/2010 12:29:54 AM EST by cn6145]
I can't read all four pages of this stupid shit.
As a former EM1(E-6) I'll say this: Always glad to see an officer moving away from me to ask someone else a stupid question, and although I got along fine with the Chiefs Mess, It always smelled a little funny. Thats why they called it the Goat Locker. And no, I was not a dirt bag. Always got very high evals and went from E1 undesignated seaman to getting paid for E6 in 5 1/2 years.
Navy Chief is right. If you have not made a cruise STFU. You do not have a clue.
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ETA: I own page 5 of a dumb thread
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Posted: 4/22/2010 1:30:39 AM EST
I agree with Sgt. Maj. Louis Espinal, Bravo Zulu!
"The LORD is my light and my salvation; Whom shall I fear? The LORD is the strength of my life; Of whom shall I be afraid? When the wicked came against me To eat up my flesh, My enemies and foes, They stumbled and fell," Psalm 27:1-2.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 1:41:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/22/2010 1:50:25 AM EST by ProudVeteran]
Originally Posted By joshki:
Originally Posted By Greenhorn:
I don't see why not. In Iraq everyone ate in the same dining halls. Heck, I once sat across from a one-star general. Why are boats different?


Because it's not Iraq. It's a ship. If you haven't been there, you don't understand the culture –– it's tradition and culture, and nobody who doesn't understand it is going to change it. How, in fact, as a senior enlisted Marine, he had never heard of this, I cannot fathom.

ETA: In general, the SGM probably would have been invited to join the Chiefs in the Chiefs' Mess –– and why anybody would want to dine in the wardroom when they were invited to the Chiefs' Mess, I don't get.


I have been there and done that and having junior enlisted be a slave (mess cook) and serve the officers does lower morale on a ship. I was a mess cook for 30 days in the wardroom and I hated every second of it, made me feel like a slave. At least they could have some boot ensign serve the officers instead of an enlisted person.

You are a former chief who ate in the chief's mess and slept in separate berthing so of course you support this tradition and if you did complain about it all of your chief friends would disown you.
"The LORD is my light and my salvation; Whom shall I fear? The LORD is the strength of my life; Of whom shall I be afraid? When the wicked came against me To eat up my flesh, My enemies and foes, They stumbled and fell," Psalm 27:1-2.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 2:04:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By DOW:
The SgtMaj is out of line.

ETA
<––––––––––––––L/Cpl for years who never whined. Stop fucking with tradition already.


This

Not only that but if they integrate the Enlisted now have to be on thier fucking toes all the time incase some pissed off butter bar wants to start shit about them eating an apple the wrong way, and the Officers will have to be constantly worrying about what they say or do in front of the E crowd instead of just eating thier food.

There is age old logic behind this practice.
"A man who is good enough to shed his blood for his country is good enough to be given a square deal afterwards. More than that no man is entitled, and less than that no man shall have."
Theodore Roosevelt, 1903
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Posted: 4/22/2010 2:40:24 AM EST
It is not tradition and culture, it is screwing the men.

Hello there, lesser forms of life. I want you enlisted scum to work 14 hour days and stand watch another 4. When you are allowed to get chow it will be low quality mass dumped crap.

Us very important officers will also work 16 hour days, most of it paperwork, but take lots of private naps in our rooms and eat the finest food served to us––because we are gods and you are clods.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 2:54:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By RickGreen:
Us very important officers will also work 16 hour days, most of it paperwork, but take lots of private naps in our rooms and eat the finest food served to us––because we are gods and you are clods.


The food is the same between the ward room and the mess decks. People detailed to mess duty, do mess duty and not their normal duties for the 30 days (normal assignment length on the ships I have been on).

The one issue I have how the ward room on some ships are run, is the usage of junior troops to wait on the members of the mess. Make the food and put it out, there is no need to do what some ships do of having the junior troops bring what amounts to a menu to your table, than bring the food out that you select and later bus the tables.
In the real world off-campus, good marksmanship trumps good will.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 3:05:00 AM EST
“Having lower-enlisted sailors serve even the most junior of offi cers on fine china for every meal, clean their rooms, make their beds and take out their trash is not only demeaning, but it fosters discontent amongst the ranks,” Inman said.


WTF?? Does that shit REALLY HAPPEN?

I can understand officers, Chiefs, and junior enlisted each having their own private meal shack where they can bitch without being heard by those they outrank, especially on ship where there isn't much other privacy. But as a former Army officer, damn, I would have chewed the ass of anyone who made one of my soldiers play "servant"....
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Posted: 4/22/2010 3:13:31 AM EST
Wonder what the good Sergeant Major would think if the Navy said no more to 'first of foot and right of the line, that is a silly, old tradition.'

I did three floats, all I did was laundry detail (once) and mess (once) for our own. Never did I walk into a state room, sling chow for a zero or anything else.

We did hide some booze in an officers head up on the air duct above a urinal on the old LPH-2 Iwo

(_@___]]~~ It is better to smoke here, than here after. Grab a cigar.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 3:20:28 AM EST
How else will they keep the tickle fights private???!!!

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Posted: 4/22/2010 3:23:18 AM EST
Probably him just being feeling he "deserves" to sit with officers.

It's fine how it is, stop fucking with tradition.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 3:31:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
“Having lower-enlisted sailors serve even the most junior of offi cers on fine china for every meal, clean their rooms, make their beds and take out their trash is not only demeaning, but it fosters discontent amongst the ranks,” Inman said.


WTF?? Does that shit REALLY HAPPEN?

I can understand officers, Chiefs, and junior enlisted each having their own private meal shack where they can bitch without being heard by those they outrank, especially on ship where there isn't much other privacy. But as a former Army officer, damn, I would have chewed the ass of anyone who made one of my soldiers play "servant"....


Yes that is how it happens! Junior enlisted mess cook in the wardroom and they basically are like slaves serving their masters.
"The LORD is my light and my salvation; Whom shall I fear? The LORD is the strength of my life; Of whom shall I be afraid? When the wicked came against me To eat up my flesh, My enemies and foes, They stumbled and fell," Psalm 27:1-2.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 3:34:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By ProudVeteran:
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
“Having lower-enlisted sailors serve even the most junior of offi cers on fine china for every meal, clean their rooms, make their beds and take out their trash is not only demeaning, but it fosters discontent amongst the ranks,” Inman said.


WTF?? Does that shit REALLY HAPPEN?

I can understand officers, Chiefs, and junior enlisted each having their own private meal shack where they can bitch without being heard by those they outrank, especially on ship where there isn't much other privacy. But as a former Army officer, damn, I would have chewed the ass of anyone who made one of my soldiers play "servant"....


Yes that is how it happens! Junior enlisted mess cook in the wardroom and they basically are like slaves serving their masters.


Wow, I didn't know about that. For us, it's simply chow halls split with a reserved section for O's and Staff NCO's.
If that's how it is, I'd be pissed too.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Posted: 4/22/2010 3:40:19 AM EST
Originally Posted By joshki:
Originally Posted By junker46:
Originally Posted By joshki:
Originally Posted By junker46:
Originally Posted By joshki:
Originally Posted By Greenhorn:
I don't see why not. In Iraq everyone ate in the same dining halls. Heck, I once sat across from a one-star general. Why are boats different?
Because it's not Iraq. It's a ship. If you haven't been there, you don't understand the culture –– it's tradition and culture, and nobody who doesn't understand it is going to change it. How, in fact, as a senior enlisted Marine, he had never heard of this, I cannot fathom.
ETA: In general, the SGM probably would have been invited to join the Chiefs in the Chiefs' Mess –– and why anybody would want to dine in the wardroom when they were invited to the Chiefs' Mess, I don't get.

200 years of tradition unmarred by progress. your post offer no explanation at all.

Oh stuff it, you've made how much you hate the Navy you served in clear.
And you never did answer the multiple times I asked you what rank you were when you got out.

E-6
ETA: wait, are y'all going to spout the rhetoric of sour grapes or something?

If you looked at yourself as an E6 rather than a First Class, that explains a lot.


Game. Set! MATCH!

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Posted: 4/22/2010 3:43:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By poink:
Originally Posted By Desert_AIP:
Originally Posted By poink:
Originally Posted By joshki:
Originally Posted By poink:
Didn't we used to have segregated units on the basis of race? Why not go back to that? After all, so many of you people argue not to 'mess with tradition.'

That's just straight up trolling.

No, it's the exact same. People are being separated on basis of class.

The rank structure is separated for important and distinct functional purposes which are not arbitrary.
Separation by sex or race would definitely be arbitrary.
Using the term class is also improper.
Class dentoes some sort of hierachical level of worth.
The different segments of the rank structure are all equally worthy.
The mere fact that one can promote and can move between "classes" destroys the class/caste argument.

Yes, I agree...but in terms of responsibilities and command roles, not in having different dining facilities.
Hell, why not have different bathrooms for officers only? Talk about reinforcing the idea of 'second class' among the enlisted.


They do.
Continue your pointless trolling.

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Posted: 4/22/2010 3:53:41 AM EST
"This tradition of segregating the mess is not in keeping with our American values; it’s time the Navy abolishes this age-old tradition and allows all sailors and Marines, officers and enlisted, aboard the ship to dine as one. We are all warriors and brothers-in-arms; break down this barrier that symbolizes segregation and division. It’s time to make this tradition a thing of the past. "

Sgt. Maj. Louis Espinal

U.S. Southern Command/Joint Task Force-Haiti

********************************

Dumb-assed whiney affirmative-action shit.

The Soviet military abolished all rank upon taking over what was left of the Imperial Russian Army in 1917... We're just all good ole boys, now, comrade !

That shit lasted about three months, and discipline in the Soviet Army flipped into the cruelest probably ever known in recent times because of the problems created and the lessons learned.

As far as some of the posters whining about being "slaves," I might quote an old Marine Corps recruiting poster...


"We don't promise you a rose garden !"

BTW, I peeled potatoes, washed pots and pans for 14 hours, and ended up an infantry company commander. Not real impressed with malcontents.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 3:54:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By satellite:
Originally Posted By ProudVeteran:
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
“Having lower-enlisted sailors serve even the most junior of offi cers on fine china for every meal, clean their rooms, make their beds and take out their trash is not only demeaning, but it fosters discontent amongst the ranks,” Inman said.


WTF?? Does that shit REALLY HAPPEN?

I can understand officers, Chiefs, and junior enlisted each having their own private meal shack where they can bitch without being heard by those they outrank, especially on ship where there isn't much other privacy. But as a former Army officer, damn, I would have chewed the ass of anyone who made one of my soldiers play "servant"....


Yes that is how it happens! Junior enlisted mess cook in the wardroom and they basically are like slaves serving their masters.


Wow, I didn't know about that. For us, it's simply chow halls split with a reserved section for O's and Staff NCO's.
If that's how it is, I'd be pissed too.



On the ships I have been on, normally they do the waiter thing till the Marines embark. Than they stop because the Marines say they won't allow their junior troops to act as waiters.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 3:58:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By ProudVeteran:
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
“Having lower-enlisted sailors serve even the most junior of offi cers on fine china for every meal, clean their rooms, make their beds and take out their trash is not only demeaning, but it fosters discontent amongst the ranks,” Inman said.

WTF?? Does that shit REALLY HAPPEN?
I can understand officers, Chiefs, and junior enlisted each having their own private meal shack where they can bitch without being heard by those they outrank, especially on ship where there isn't much other privacy. But as a former Army officer, damn, I would have chewed the ass of anyone who made one of my soldiers play "servant"....

Yes that is how it happens! Junior enlisted mess cook in the wardroom and they basically are like slaves serving their masters.


So who do you think does the cooking and cleaning for the entire fucking ship?
There is no difference between cooking and cleaning in the admirals mess, the chiefs mess, the wardroom or the main galley.
Most of the people who I had to send TAD mess cranking didn't seem to mind the Chiefs mess or the wardroom, they sure didn't want to be working the scullery on the main mess deck (unless they were a bit crazy).

Heck, I'll bet some of you would be shocked if I told you junior Enlisted people in aviation had to carry hundreds of pounds of aircraft chocks and chains around all day long to secure the planes (that officers operate) to the deck.


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Posted: 4/22/2010 4:03:36 AM EST
As being a Marine on ship, I just prayed to not get mess duty. As far as I am concerned, keep those officers in the farthest berthing away from me. Officers also incur a tab in the wardroom that they have to pay if I remember correctly.....
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Posted: 4/22/2010 4:09:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
“Having lower-enlisted sailors serve even the most junior of offi cers on fine china for every meal, clean their rooms, make their beds and take out their trash is not only demeaning, but it fosters discontent amongst the ranks,” Inman said.


WTF?? Does that shit REALLY HAPPEN?

I can understand officers, Chiefs, and junior enlisted each having their own private meal shack where they can bitch without being heard by those they outrank, especially on ship where there isn't much other privacy. But as a former Army officer, damn, I would have chewed the ass of anyone who made one of my soldiers play "servant"....


IIRC, an Army Colonel around 1960 would have had junior enlisted mowing the lawn of his on-post house.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 4:15:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By sharkman6:
Also, don't the Chiefs chip in money for their mess? I know the officers do, or at least did.


Officers pay for all their meals while afloat.

It is actually sort of a racket on amphibs; the navy normally has normal meals as long as the Marines are embarked and when we conduct exercises ashore, they break out the steak and lobster, etc.


Heck, on the Bataan, they locked up the Texas Pete. Apparently that stuff was walking off the tables and into Marines packs .

We ate good in Norfolk, then things gradually went down hill once we put out to sea. I think the "affectionate" term for the chow was "Kibbles and Shit" after a couple weeks underway. If you timed it well though, you could catch the cooks whipping up a batch of cinnamon buns early in the morning (0300), for some reason those fellas like BDUs, and we always had some extras to trade.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 4:18:38 AM EST
Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By satellite:
Originally Posted By ProudVeteran:
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
“Having lower-enlisted sailors serve even the most junior of offi cers on fine china for every meal, clean their rooms, make their beds and take out their trash is not only demeaning, but it fosters discontent amongst the ranks,” Inman said.


WTF?? Does that shit REALLY HAPPEN?

I can understand officers, Chiefs, and junior enlisted each having their own private meal shack where they can bitch without being heard by those they outrank, especially on ship where there isn't much other privacy. But as a former Army officer, damn, I would have chewed the ass of anyone who made one of my soldiers play "servant"....


Yes that is how it happens! Junior enlisted mess cook in the wardroom and they basically are like slaves serving their masters.


Wow, I didn't know about that. For us, it's simply chow halls split with a reserved section for O's and Staff NCO's.
If that's how it is, I'd be pissed too.



On the ships I have been on, normally they do the waiter thing till the Marines embark. Than they stop because the Marines say they won't allow their junior troops to act as waiters.


Interesting, thanks for that info.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 4:29:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By ProudVeteran:
Originally Posted By joshki:
Originally Posted By Greenhorn:
I don't see why not. In Iraq everyone ate in the same dining halls. Heck, I once sat across from a one-star general. Why are boats different?


Because it's not Iraq. It's a ship. If you haven't been there, you don't understand the culture –– it's tradition and culture, and nobody who doesn't understand it is going to change it. How, in fact, as a senior enlisted Marine, he had never heard of this, I cannot fathom.

ETA: In general, the SGM probably would have been invited to join the Chiefs in the Chiefs' Mess –– and why anybody would want to dine in the wardroom when they were invited to the Chiefs' Mess, I don't get.


I have been there and done that and having junior enlisted be a slave (mess cook) and serve the officers does lower morale on a ship. I was a mess cook for 30 days in the wardroom and I hated every second of it, made me feel like a slave. At least they could have some boot ensign serve the officers instead of an enlisted person.

You are a former chief who ate in the chief's mess and slept in separate berthing so of course you support this tradition and if you did complain about it all of your chief friends would disown you.


I spent 5 years aboard a ship as a junior enlisted. Please don't pretend to tell me I hold my opinions because I'm a Chief (not former, btw). Chiefs don't join the Navy as Chiefs.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 4:30:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By RickGreen:
Us very important officers will also work 16 hour days, most of it paperwork, but take lots of private naps in our rooms and eat the finest food served to us––because we are gods and you are clods.


The food is the same between the ward room and the mess decks. People detailed to mess duty, do mess duty and not their normal duties for the 30 days (normal assignment length on the ships I have been on).

The one issue I have how the ward room on some ships are run, is the usage of junior troops to wait on the members of the mess. Make the food and put it out, there is no need to do what some ships do of having the junior troops bring what amounts to a menu to your table, than bring the food out that you select and later bus the tables.


I tend to agree with that point.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 4:32:14 AM EST
Originally Posted By Dustrod:
As being a Marine on ship, I just prayed to not get mess duty. As far as I am concerned, keep those officers in the farthest berthing away from me. Officers also incur a tab in the wardroom that they have to pay if I remember correctly.....


Officers always pay for their food.

When I got back from Viet Nam, my first paycheck was almost zero... went to Disbursing and was told "they" had forgotten to deduct $2.18 per day for my meals, most of which came in a little brown box, delivered by helicopter. 95 % of my pay was sent to my wife, so I didn't catch any shortfall.



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Posted: 4/22/2010 4:39:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By Espada:
Originally Posted By Dustrod:
As being a Marine on ship, I just prayed to not get mess duty. As far as I am concerned, keep those officers in the farthest berthing away from me. Officers also incur a tab in the wardroom that they have to pay if I remember correctly.....


Officers always pay for their food.

When I got back from Viet Nam, my first paycheck was almost zero... went to Disbursing and was told "they" had forgotten to deduct $2.18 per day for my meals, most of which came in a little brown box, delivered by helicopter. 95 % of my pay was sent to my wife, so I didn't catch any shortfall.





Now you no longer pay for your food if you are in combat zone, unless you are embarked on a ship. Kind weird how that works.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 4:49:55 AM EST
I spent one continuous week on a carrier while serving in the Army.....I like the tradition and so did my guys. However, an Army E-6 better not cut in front of my guys or any another Army lower enlisted while on a ship...that tradition is best kept for the squids and the Armys tradition is to let lower ranking personal eat first.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 4:51:50 AM EST
I ate in all three messes aboard seven ships: The enlisted mess decks, the CPO mess (E-7, E-8, E-9 for all services) and in the wardroom. One of my ships was an LKA (A large cargo ship, used to carry Marines and their junk.). I got commissioned just before reporting there. One day I was eating in the CPO mess and the next, I ate in the wardroom (FTR...I much preferred "The Mess".)

ALL of the senior enlisted Marines mess with their peers in the CPO mess. On the LKA, that included our senior jarheads. Our Sergeant Major would no more have thought about crashing the wardroom than flying to the moon!

The junior enlisted (E-1 –– E-6) Marines mess with the crew and all of the officers mess in the wardroom. On large vessels commanded by a Navy captain, the CO has a personal mess with his own mess attendant and he often eats alone, unless invited to dine with the officers by the XO who is the president of the officers' mess. The officers fund their own mess. Enlisted personnel, including the chiefs do not. The chiefs do have a mess fund, used to purchase "stuff" they deem necessary for their own comforts...that the Navy supply system doesn't normally provide. That is how they get the great condiments and other goodies that the officers and crew never see.

Aboard most ships, all hands eat food prepared in the general mess...there is only one full sized galley, although the wardroom and the large vessels have a small galley for preparing quick meals and to support the CO's needs.

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Shipboard life is DIFFERENT that life ashore and always has been. I served in a spec warfare unit for five years. We all ate together...enlisted, chiefs and officers...but aboard ship it is a world apart and this pissy Marine isn't about to change it. In my 28 year career, I never ate in any other mess not associated with my rank.

This Marine is out of line.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 4:52:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By Greenhorn:
Originally Posted By joshki:
Originally Posted By Greenhorn:
I don't see why not. In Iraq everyone ate in the same dining halls. Heck, I once sat across from a one-star general. Why are boats different?


Because it's not Iraq. It's a ship. If you haven't been there, you don't understand the culture –– it's tradition and culture, and nobody who doesn't understand it is going to change it. How, in fact, as a senior enlisted Marine, he had never heard of this, I cannot fathom.


OK, tradition and culture is fine, but is there an actual logical reason for it?

Yes.
Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical, liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.---Anon
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Posted: 4/22/2010 4:53:48 AM EST
I'm, Army, but I wouldn't want to have to rub shoulders with brass when I'm trying to relax over my meal.
*post contains personal opinion only and should not be considered information released in an official capacity*
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:03:10 AM EST
I'd sure like to see the Navy change its traditions because some outsider comes in and gets offended......, Damn I knew Sailors were tougher than marines but this is taking it to a new level.
However I am Aircrew and stand/sit/eat/work side by side with Officers 90% of the time. Once you get out of the Boat Navy Mentality its completely different and such traditions are not as heavily enforced. Hell I've shared a hotel Room Suite with one of my Pilots while on Det, thats a huge no no in the blackshoe (Boat) Navy.
We do Have a CPO Mess at the Squadron and OMG its nice in there but the Ward Room is a joke and the first class Mess makes it look like a Crack house.
monkeyman
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:05:22 AM EST
I suppose that back in the day when officers were educated and the average sailor couldn't write his own name, segregation was necessary.

Maybe that is still the case, I don't know.
HeavyMetal
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:12:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By DoubleARon:
It's not that the officers didn't want the SOUTHCOM Sergeant Major dining with them, it's that they were dishonest and basically lied to the Chief of Staff to keep him from doing so. I dunno why the Navy does things the way it does, but in the Army, most senior officers I've known would rather eat with their enlisted than their junior officers.


This is a good tool to find out what info is not making it's way up the COC to him.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:13:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By DOW:
The SgtMaj is out of line.

ETA
<––––––––––––––L/Cpl for years who never whined. Stop fucking with tradition already.

I'm with him. The SgtMjr should know better.

Don't fuck with Naval tradition.

On my boat (CVN) the E-6's had a separate dining room but got their chow from the common galley, the Chiefs (E-7 - E-9) had a completely separate dining hall/galley, Officers ate in the board rooms. E-5 and below ate in the common mess decks.

There is a defined pecking order in the Navy, E-3 and below are usually treated as one group (shitty), E-4 > E-6 are given somewhat more respect as they have time in rate, E-7 > E-9 are the Chiefs and are not to be fucked with under any circumstances.

Officers are Officers, the word of Commander and up are pretty much treated as gospel.

"Deserves got nothing to do with it." ~William Munny
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:18:48 AM EST
OK - real quick question from an old Grunt: what is a navy "chief," exactly? Is it analogous to the Army's Warrant Officers? I thought chief referred to chief petty officers, which I thought were equivalent to SFC and up. Can someone square me away?
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his/her life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life."
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:19:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By poink:
Didn't we used to have segregated units on the basis of race? Why not go back to that? After all, so many of you people argue not to 'mess with tradition.'



One of the dumbest statements I have ever heard...
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:20:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By SkilletsUSMC:
The officer/enlisted messes don't bother me, but officers should have to clean their own fucking ward rooms...

THAT was always bullshit in my mind...

This plus a million! I've always thought that sending a Sailor to 20 Months of advanced electronics training, that after he reports to a ship, 90 days of mess duty, is a waste of money and gives the Sailors a bad attitude (it sure did to me!).
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:22:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By Steelerfan_LG1:
OK - real quick question from an old Grunt: what is a navy "chief," exactly? Is it analogous to the Army's Warrant Officers? I thought chief referred to chief petty officers, which I thought were equivalent to SFC and up. Can someone square me away?

Chief=E7, Senior Chief=E8, Master Chief=E9
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:23:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By NC_Andy:

Originally Posted By Steelerfan_LG1:
OK - real quick question from an old Grunt: what is a navy "chief," exactly? Is it analogous to the Army's Warrant Officers? I thought chief referred to chief petty officers, which I thought were equivalent to SFC and up. Can someone square me away?

Chief=E7, Senior Chief=E8, Master Chief=E9


Well then that Marine should have eaten with his peers in the Chief's mess.

Thanks for the clarification too!
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his/her life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life."
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:29:03 AM EST
Originally Posted By reconBYfire:
I spent one continuous week on a carrier while serving in the Army.....I like the tradition and so did my guys. However, an Army E-6 better not cut in front of my guys or any another Army lower enlisted while on a ship...that tradition is best kept for the squids and the Armys tradition is to let lower ranking personal eat first.


It's a Marine tradition, as well.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:34:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By ProudVeteran:
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
“Having lower-enlisted sailors serve even the most junior of offi cers on fine china for every meal, clean their rooms, make their beds and take out their trash is not only demeaning, but it fosters discontent amongst the ranks,” Inman said.


WTF?? Does that shit REALLY HAPPEN?

I can understand officers, Chiefs, and junior enlisted each having their own private meal shack where they can bitch without being heard by those they outrank, especially on ship where there isn't much other privacy. But as a former Army officer, damn, I would have chewed the ass of anyone who made one of my soldiers play "servant"....


Yes that is how it happens! Junior enlisted mess cook in the wardroom and they basically are like slaves serving their masters.

I don't know about you but my TAD to the mess decks (or ships laundry or some other menial task) was outlined in the Enlistment contract I signed when I went in. Also, for those that don't know, Navy ships never sleep, they are active 24/7 when at sea, this means they get dirty and must be cleaned almost constantly. The outgoing shift cleans up their own mess, junior enlisted are assigned cleaning duty as needed. The CVN I was on had about 4500 crewmen when under way, S-2 Div (Supply) obviously doesn't have enough Mess Specialists to cook for, and clean up after, that many people, thus mess cranks are used. You could be cleaning, cooking, or checking out fuckign basketballs in the MWR office, but you'll do your time somewhere for the benefit of the crew.
"Deserves got nothing to do with it." ~William Munny
FivespeedF150
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:46:36 AM EST

Originally Posted By NC_Andy:

Originally Posted By Steelerfan_LG1:
OK - real quick question from an old Grunt: what is a navy "chief," exactly? Is it analogous to the Army's Warrant Officers? I thought chief referred to chief petty officers, which I thought were equivalent to SFC and up. Can someone square me away?

Chief=E7, Senior Chief=E8, Master Chief=E9



This reminds me one of the contractors in bahrain, he was prior Army. Army calls their warrants (CWO's) "Chiefs"... the Navy CWO2 gave him a funny look when he called him Chief
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:48:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By Doable_Bill:
Originally Posted By reconBYfire:
I spent one continuous week on a carrier while serving in the Army.....I like the tradition and so did my guys. However, an Army E-6 better not cut in front of my guys or any another Army lower enlisted while on a ship...that tradition is best kept for the squids and the Armys tradition is to let lower ranking personal eat first.


It's a Marine tradition, as well.


That is correct.

Chow eating order goes from the bottom up, even if there isn't enough for everyone. But in every USMC chow hall I've ever ate at (8 years ago), the Non NCOs had their own eating area, and there was separate sections for NCOs, and Staff NCOs.

My bet is that the SGTMAJ in question here, would have thrown a justified shitfit if LCpl Smuchatelli ditty bopped over to the Staff NCO section in the chow hall, helped himself to the salad bar, and sat down next to him.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:53:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By Greenhorn:
Originally Posted By joshki:
Originally Posted By Greenhorn:
I don't see why not. In Iraq everyone ate in the same dining halls. Heck, I once sat across from a one-star general. Why are boats different?


Because it's not Iraq. It's a ship. If you haven't been there, you don't understand the culture –– it's tradition and culture, and nobody who doesn't understand it is going to change it. How, in fact, as a senior enlisted Marine, he had never heard of this, I cannot fathom.


OK, tradition and culture is fine, but is there an actual logical reason for it?


Its really hard to talk about officers when you're sitting with them...

Really, its allows for an atmosphere for everyone to talk, come up with ideas, share greivances etc. without having the CoC sitting right there.

<––––––––Former enlisted Sailor.
"This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."
LCDR Robert W. Copeland, USNR, CO, USS Samuel B. Roberts (DE 413)
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:55:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By KA3B:
SERGEANT MAJOR’S LETTER

As the command sergeant major for Joint Task Force-Haiti, I am humbled and proud to represent all the soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines and Coast Guards men serving in support of Operation Unified Response.

I have served aboard many ships in my more than 30 years in the Marine Corps. I am very familiar with the century-old tradition of segregating the mess between officers and enlisted on the ship.

It’s time for a change. It’s time the Navy abolishes this tradition.

Recently, I accompanied the commander of the JTF-Haiti, Army Lt. Gen. Ken Keen, to a senior leaders conference on one of our ships. The purpose of the gathering of leaders was to discuss lessons learned and lay the foundation for the way ahead. A day before the conference, I had been asked by officers aboard the ship to join the enlisted service members on the ship. I didn’t. Instead, I ate dinner with my commander and the other flag and senior officers.

During my career, I have dined with numerous flag officers and dignitaries, but this is the first time I’ve ever felt like a “second class” leader.

I have served with both the Army and Air Force over my career, and neither of these branches of service practices this separation. The benefits I see of breaking bread together with officers and enlisted is that it builds cohesion and contributes to the esprit de corps of the unit.

Today, I serve because I love being a Marine. I get the satisfaction of knowing that every day I have the opportunity to make an impact on the life of a future leader. But as a senior enlisted leader at U.S.

Southern Command and JTF-Haiti, I have the responsibility to all those I lead and represent to stand up and voice my concerns when I feel a correction is needed, or an injustice is being committed.

This tradition of segregating the mess is not in keeping with our American values; it’s time the Navy abolishes this age-old tradition and allows all sailors and Marines, officers and enlisted, aboard the ship to dine as one. We are all warriors and brothers-in-arms; break down this barrier that symbolizes segregation and division. It’s time to make this tradition a thing of the past.

Sgt. Maj. Louis Espinal

U.S. Southern Command/Joint Task Force-Haiti


Noted.
"This will be a fight against overwhelming odds from which survival cannot be expected. We will do what damage we can."
LCDR Robert W. Copeland, USNR, CO, USS Samuel B. Roberts (DE 413)
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Posted: 4/22/2010 5:59:15 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/22/2010 6:00:19 AM EST by Silence]
For all you saying "do away with it", imagine having to eat mess everyday with Captain Graf on the Cowpens (or someone similar) at the table next to you...
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Posted: 4/22/2010 6:01:21 AM EST
Originally Posted By ProudVeteran:

You are a former chief who ate in the chief's mess and slept in separate berthing so of course you support this tradition and if you did complain about it all of your chief friends would disown you.


You seem to forget the little detail that he assuredly mess cranked (more than once) before becoming a Chief.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 6:03:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By slabertooch:
Originally Posted By Doable_Bill:
Originally Posted By reconBYfire:
I spent one continuous week on a carrier while serving in the Army.....I like the tradition and so did my guys. However, an Army E-6 better not cut in front of my guys or any another Army lower enlisted while on a ship...that tradition is best kept for the squids and the Armys tradition is to let lower ranking personal eat first.


It's a Marine tradition, as well.


That is correct.

Chow eating order goes from the bottom up, even if there isn't enough for everyone. But in every USMC chow hall I've ever ate at (8 years ago), the Non NCOs had their own eating area, and there was separate sections for NCOs, and Staff NCOs.

My bet is that the SGTMAJ in question here, would have thrown a justified shitfit if LCpl Smuchatelli ditty bopped over to the Staff NCO section in the chow hall, helped himself to the salad bar, and sat down next to him.


On ship there is a special line for E-6's so they do not have to wait as long in line. At least on the Bonhomme Richard
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Posted: 4/22/2010 6:04:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By ProudVeteran:
Originally Posted By spartacus2002:
“Having lower-enlisted sailors serve even the most junior of offi cers on fine china for every meal, clean their rooms, make their beds and take out their trash is not only demeaning, but it fosters discontent amongst the ranks,” Inman said.


WTF?? Does that shit REALLY HAPPEN?

I can understand officers, Chiefs, and junior enlisted each having their own private meal shack where they can bitch without being heard by those they outrank, especially on ship where there isn't much other privacy. But as a former Army officer, damn, I would have chewed the ass of anyone who made one of my soldiers play "servant"....


Yes that is how it happens! Junior enlisted mess cook in the wardroom and they basically are like slaves serving their masters.


Bullshit.

Junior enlisted don't cook in the wardroom. They serve the same stuff as is prepared on the mess decks. The officers eat the same as the enlisted, only they have to PAY for it whereas enlisted men don't.

Second, NO ENLISTED cleans the officer's rooms, makes their racks, or anything of the kind.

I'm sure JO's in the Army burn the shit for the officers, not enlisted men.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 6:06:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/22/2010 6:16:52 AM EST by _DR]
Next they will allow enlisted men in the O-club, and vice versa.

I was an E-5 before I got my comission. I knew plenty of NCOs that would have shit a brick if you told them officers would be allowed in the NCO club.

The separation is there for a reason, and it has nothing to do with subservience. WOs are also an entity unto themselves.

The enlisted/Officer protocol has been fine for over 200 years, I don't see why they feel the need to fuck with it while we are at war. Just like the whole openly gay thing. This always happens with Democrat presidents, the shit rolls on down and fucks everything up. I ought to know, I had the misfortune of serving under Clinton and watching our military dry up and shrivel to a shadow of its former self in the 90's. Our TO&E was like a wish list from the Salvation Army.
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Posted: 4/22/2010 6:06:23 AM EST
Originally Posted By joshki:
Originally Posted By R0N:
Originally Posted By RickGreen:
Us very important officers will also work 16 hour days, most of it paperwork, but take lots of private naps in our rooms and eat the finest food served to us––because we are gods and you are clods.


The food is the same between the ward room and the mess decks. People detailed to mess duty, do mess duty and not their normal duties for the 30 days (normal assignment length on the ships I have been on).

The one issue I have how the ward room on some ships are run, is the usage of junior troops to wait on the members of the mess. Make the food and put it out, there is no need to do what some ships do of having the junior troops bring what amounts to a menu to your table, than bring the food out that you select and later bus the tables.


I tend to agree with that point.


As do I.

It always bothered me to have the guys serve me. I picked up my own plates and returned them to the galley, and always went out of my way to thank the guys who were serving. If I could get my own plate, I did.
"We live in an era where nothing is a surprise and everything is an outrage." - Rush Limbaugh
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