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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:48:21 PM EDT
OK guys, I'm trying to build one of those tiny houses. I want it to be as energy-independent as possible. (For prepper reasons, not global warming BS.) I want to go with solar-heated hot water for as much of the space heating as humanly possible.

So I need to determine 1) Heat loss to conduction through walls (I'm ignoring air infiltration until I tackle this)

Assuming I am making a modest 16x24 house, with R60 walls and R100 ceilings and floor, are these correct?

Energy (in Watts) = DeltaT (internal goal temp - cold night temp in C) * surface area (in sq m) / R-value

Thus:

W= (23- (-1)= 24) * 59.4579 / 60

W = 23.78/hr

W = (23- (-1) = 24) * 71.3495 / 100

W = 17.12/hr

40.9 W/hr, .981 kWh/ day

Assuming these are correct, at what temperature would 300 gallons of heated water need to be to warm the internal 3072 cu ft of air to 70*F? That's where my math failed me. I got 1126 Kelvin.

Any help would be 'preciated.
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 10:06:36 PM EDT
[#1]
Don't make it so tight you suffocate, or have humidity issues.
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 10:07:02 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
That's where my math failed me. I got 1126 Kelvin.

Any help would be 'preciated.
View Quote


Water at that temperature would require one hell of a pressure vessel.
Link Posted: 10/26/2014 10:40:13 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Don't make it so tight you suffocate, or have humidity issues.
View Quote


I intend on forced ventilation with a fan, and a heat recovery ventilator. I agree, I don't want mold issues.

Link Posted: 10/27/2014 9:31:10 PM EDT
[#4]
One thing that screwed me up is that R-values are not unitless, and are usually quoted in Imperial, not metric units in the US.  So be careful with your area calculations, or convert your R-values over.

Otherwise, yes, the R value gives the total thermal resistance of the wall.  However, keep in mind that the convection conditions on the interior/exterior also provide some, and perhaps significant thermal resistance.  Thus your calculation could be Watts=area*deltaT/(R_wallcond+R_outsideconv+R_insideconv).
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 12:53:20 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
One thing that screwed me up is that R-values are not unitless, and are usually quoted in Imperial, not metric units in the US.  So be careful with your area calculations, or convert your R-values over.

Otherwise, yes, the R value gives the total thermal resistance of the wall.  However, keep in mind that the convection conditions on the interior/exterior also provide some, and perhaps significant thermal resistance.  Thus your calculation could be Watts=area*deltaT/(R_wallcond+R_outsideconv+R_insideconv).
View Quote


Use U values and not R-values.
U= 1/R and makes a whole lot of the calculations easier.

The units for 'R' are BTU/(h °F ft2)
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 12:55:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
OK guys, I'm trying to build one of those tiny houses. I want it to be as energy-independent as possible. (For prepper reasons, not global warming BS.) I want to go with solar-heated hot water for as much of the space heating as humanly possible.

So I need to determine 1) Heat loss to conduction through walls (I'm ignoring air infiltration until I tackle this)

Assuming I am making a modest 16x24 house, with R60 walls and R100 ceilings and floor, are these correct?

Energy (in Watts) = DeltaT (internal goal temp - cold night temp in C) * surface area (in sq m) / R-value

Thus:

W= (23- (-1)= 24) * 59.4579 / 60

W = 23.78/hr

W = (23- (-1) = 24) * 71.3495 / 100

W = 17.12/hr

40.9 W/hr, .981 kWh/ day

Assuming these are correct, at what temperature would 300 gallons of heated water need to be to warm the internal 3072 cu ft of air to 70*F? That's where my math failed me. I got 1126 Kelvin.

Any help would be 'preciated.
View Quote


The necessary temperature of the water depends on the physical shape of the water bath, and how you intend to allow it to conduct/convect heat to your building.  Would you have a fan running inside all the time to move air across the water?
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 12:57:40 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The necessary temperature of the water depends on the physical shape of the water bath, and how you intend to allow it to conduct/convect heat to your building.  Would you have a fan running inside all the time to move air across the water?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
OK guys, I'm trying to build one of those tiny houses. I want it to be as energy-independent as possible. (For prepper reasons, not global warming BS.) I want to go with solar-heated hot water for as much of the space heating as humanly possible.

So I need to determine 1) Heat loss to conduction through walls (I'm ignoring air infiltration until I tackle this)

Assuming I am making a modest 16x24 house, with R60 walls and R100 ceilings and floor, are these correct?

Energy (in Watts) = DeltaT (internal goal temp - cold night temp in C) * surface area (in sq m) / R-value

Thus:

W= (23- (-1)= 24) * 59.4579 / 60

W = 23.78/hr

W = (23- (-1) = 24) * 71.3495 / 100

W = 17.12/hr

40.9 W/hr, .981 kWh/ day

Assuming these are correct, at what temperature would 300 gallons of heated water need to be to warm the internal 3072 cu ft of air to 70*F? That's where my math failed me. I got 1126 Kelvin.

Any help would be 'preciated.


The necessary temperature of the water depends on the physical shape of the water bath, and how you intend to allow it to conduct/convect heat to your building.  Would you have a fan running inside all the time to move air across the water?



Just use BTUs.
1 BTU is the heat to change 1 pound of water by 1 degree F

You need delta T over the radiator to calculate the delivered heat.
Many are rated for 180 F water in to deliver X BTU/hour.
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 12:57:47 PM EDT
[#8]

Link Posted: 10/28/2014 2:18:08 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Use U values and not R-values.
U= 1/R and makes a whole lot of the calculations easier.

The units for 'R' are BTU/(h °F ft2)
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
One thing that screwed me up is that R-values are not unitless, and are usually quoted in Imperial, not metric units in the US.  So be careful with your area calculations, or convert your R-values over.

Otherwise, yes, the R value gives the total thermal resistance of the wall.  However, keep in mind that the convection conditions on the interior/exterior also provide some, and perhaps significant thermal resistance.  Thus your calculation could be Watts=area*deltaT/(R_wallcond+R_outsideconv+R_insideconv).


Use U values and not R-values.
U= 1/R and makes a whole lot of the calculations easier.

The units for 'R' are BTU/(h °F ft2)


You can use whatever the heck you want as long as the units are consistent.  Besides, if he's looking at series resistance of a wall including convection resistance, using R values is easier because they can be added.
Link Posted: 10/28/2014 3:41:38 PM EDT
[#10]
have you done the heat loss/ gain calculations on the proposed home yet? you way over killed the insulation factor to the point where you will have mold issues. the money spent on framing and  insulating your home to that extreme would require a very long payback too boot not to mention aggravate the humidity level in the home. keep in mind that you may not even see the Sun in January and February so it would be difficult to heat 300 gallons of water to be used to heating
Link Posted: 10/29/2014 6:25:20 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
One thing that screwed me up is that R-values are not unitless, and are usually quoted in Imperial, not metric units in the US.  So be careful with your area calculations, or convert your R-values over.

Otherwise, yes, the R value gives the total thermal resistance of the wall.  However, keep in mind that the convection conditions on the interior/exterior also provide some, and perhaps significant thermal resistance.  Thus your calculation could be Watts=area*deltaT/(R_wallcond+R_outsideconv+R_insideconv).
View Quote


Yeah, when I say R60 I mean TRUE R60. Not R60 cellulose with framing losses, but a cumulative R60 wall.

Yeah, I know it will be ~2 feet thick.
Link Posted: 10/29/2014 6:27:18 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The necessary temperature of the water depends on the physical shape of the water bath, and how you intend to allow it to conduct/convect heat to your building.  Would you have a fan running inside all the time to move air across the water?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
OK guys, I'm trying to build one of those tiny houses. I want it to be as energy-independent as possible. (For prepper reasons, not global warming BS.) I want to go with solar-heated hot water for as much of the space heating as humanly possible.

So I need to determine 1) Heat loss to conduction through walls (I'm ignoring air infiltration until I tackle this)

Assuming I am making a modest 16x24 house, with R60 walls and R100 ceilings and floor, are these correct?

Energy (in Watts) = DeltaT (internal goal temp - cold night temp in C) * surface area (in sq m) / R-value

Thus:

W= (23- (-1)= 24) * 59.4579 / 60

W = 23.78/hr

W = (23- (-1) = 24) * 71.3495 / 100

W = 17.12/hr

40.9 W/hr, .981 kWh/ day

Assuming these are correct, at what temperature would 300 gallons of heated water need to be to warm the internal 3072 cu ft of air to 70*F? That's where my math failed me. I got 1126 Kelvin.

Any help would be 'preciated.


The necessary temperature of the water depends on the physical shape of the water bath, and how you intend to allow it to conduct/convect heat to your building.  Would you have a fan running inside all the time to move air across the water?


Crap.

Perhaps I was being optimistic, but I'm also assuming the efficiency of the water bath to be 100%, for the reason that once heat gets inside it must heat up the tinyhouse. I could be wrong here.
Link Posted: 10/29/2014 6:28:47 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Just use BTUs.
1 BTU is the heat to change 1 pound of water by 1 degree F

You need delta T over the radiator to calculate the delivered heat.
Many are rated for 180 F water in to deliver X BTU/hour.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
OK guys, I'm trying to build one of those tiny houses. I want it to be as energy-independent as possible. (For prepper reasons, not global warming BS.) I want to go with solar-heated hot water for as much of the space heating as humanly possible.

So I need to determine 1) Heat loss to conduction through walls (I'm ignoring air infiltration until I tackle this)

Assuming I am making a modest 16x24 house, with R60 walls and R100 ceilings and floor, are these correct?

Energy (in Watts) = DeltaT (internal goal temp - cold night temp in C) * surface area (in sq m) / R-value

Thus:

W= (23- (-1)= 24) * 59.4579 / 60

W = 23.78/hr

W = (23- (-1) = 24) * 71.3495 / 100

W = 17.12/hr

40.9 W/hr, .981 kWh/ day

Assuming these are correct, at what temperature would 300 gallons of heated water need to be to warm the internal 3072 cu ft of air to 70*F? That's where my math failed me. I got 1126 Kelvin.

Any help would be 'preciated.


The necessary temperature of the water depends on the physical shape of the water bath, and how you intend to allow it to conduct/convect heat to your building.  Would you have a fan running inside all the time to move air across the water?



Just use BTUs.
1 BTU is the heat to change 1 pound of water by 1 degree F

You need delta T over the radiator to calculate the delivered heat.
Many are rated for 180 F water in to deliver X BTU/hour.


So just convert BTUs to Watts?

I'm actually using 110*F as a baseline for my heat.
Use too high, and it will never run in Ohio winters. Use too low, and it will be taking in cold water.
Link Posted: 10/29/2014 6:29:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


Oh believe me, I'm gonna spray foam the f&*( out of it.
Link Posted: 10/31/2014 9:34:34 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


You can use whatever the heck you want as long as the units are consistent.  Besides, if he's looking at series resistance of a wall including convection resistance, using R values is easier because they can be added.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
One thing that screwed me up is that R-values are not unitless, and are usually quoted in Imperial, not metric units in the US.  So be careful with your area calculations, or convert your R-values over.

Otherwise, yes, the R value gives the total thermal resistance of the wall.  However, keep in mind that the convection conditions on the interior/exterior also provide some, and perhaps significant thermal resistance.  Thus your calculation could be Watts=area*deltaT/(R_wallcond+R_outsideconv+R_insideconv).


Use U values and not R-values.
U= 1/R and makes a whole lot of the calculations easier.

The units for 'R' are BTU/(h °F ft2)


You can use whatever the heck you want as long as the units are consistent.  Besides, if he's looking at series resistance of a wall including convection resistance, using R values is easier because they can be added.


Except when they are not just stacked up.
You have studs or framing in that wall.
It 'short circuits' the insulation.

U values make the calculations easier.
Link Posted: 11/1/2014 12:06:01 AM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Except when they are not just stacked up.
You have studs or framing in that wall.
It 'short circuits' the insulation.

U values make the calculations easier.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
One thing that screwed me up is that R-values are not unitless, and are usually quoted in Imperial, not metric units in the US.  So be careful with your area calculations, or convert your R-values over.

Otherwise, yes, the R value gives the total thermal resistance of the wall.  However, keep in mind that the convection conditions on the interior/exterior also provide some, and perhaps significant thermal resistance.  Thus your calculation could be Watts=area*deltaT/(R_wallcond+R_outsideconv+R_insideconv).


Use U values and not R-values.
U= 1/R and makes a whole lot of the calculations easier.

The units for 'R' are BTU/(h °F ft2)


You can use whatever the heck you want as long as the units are consistent.  Besides, if he's looking at series resistance of a wall including convection resistance, using R values is easier because they can be added.


Except when they are not just stacked up.
You have studs or framing in that wall.
It 'short circuits' the insulation.

U values make the calculations easier.


If you ONLY have parallel conduction, 1/R is easier.  But when you have both series and parallel conduction, it makes no difference at all which one you use.  Frankly, it makes a piddling difference even in the extreme cases.  It is, however, standard thermal analysis technique to use R.  Do you use 1/R when solving for current in an electrical circuit with parallel loads?
Link Posted: 11/2/2014 9:57:56 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


You can use whatever the heck you want as long as the units are consistent.  Besides, if he's looking at series resistance of a wall including convection resistance, using R values is easier because they can be added.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
One thing that screwed me up is that R-values are not unitless, and are usually quoted in Imperial, not metric units in the US.  So be careful with your area calculations, or convert your R-values over.

Otherwise, yes, the R value gives the total thermal resistance of the wall.  However, keep in mind that the convection conditions on the interior/exterior also provide some, and perhaps significant thermal resistance.  Thus your calculation could be Watts=area*deltaT/(R_wallcond+R_outsideconv+R_insideconv).


Use U values and not R-values.
U= 1/R and makes a whole lot of the calculations easier.

The units for 'R' are BTU/(h °F ft2)


You can use whatever the heck you want as long as the units are consistent.  Besides, if he's looking at series resistance of a wall including convection resistance, using R values is easier because they can be added.


Except when they are in parallel.
Like the studs on each side of the cavity.
Link Posted: 11/3/2014 8:29:12 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
have you done the heat loss/ gain calculations on the proposed home yet? you way over killed the insulation factor to the point where you will have mold issues. the money spent on framing and  insulating your home to that extreme would require a very long payback too boot not to mention aggravate the humidity level in the home. keep in mind that you may not even see the Sun in January and February so it would be difficult to heat 300 gallons of water to be used to heating
View Quote


That's what I'm trying to do here.

I know the insulation is extreme, that's what I'm shooting for, and why I chose cellulose. It absorbs and redistributes moisture throughout, without allowing any moisture to condense on the framing. I will use forced (negative pressure) ventilation to ensure that no air goes from hot -> cold, which is the main reason for water vapor being trapped in a wall.

Yeah, the payback will likely take decades - but I don't care. This is a prepper house, intended for if fossil fuels or electricity are no longer available. It needs to be as self-sufficient as possible, which is which I'm going to the extremely small size and R-value. The cost is not an issue, as much as the desire for a house with almost no dependence on outside fuel/electricity sources.

I think the humidity would also be kept in check by continuous ventilation, going through a HRV to recover lost heat.

Ohio gets approx 2.5kW/m^2 sunlight in Dec/Jan, for approx 4 hours/day. Assuming a collector efficiency of ~18%, I think ~200ft sq of collector could theoretically provide 100% of space heating needs. I'm just trying to make sure I'm right before I buy spend ~$40k on a 384 square foot cabin and realize I was wrong.

Link Posted: 11/3/2014 11:17:31 AM EDT
[#19]
You are going to need a large thermal mass to store the heat.

A couple days in a row of clouds and you better have a decent backup source.
Link Posted: 11/3/2014 11:27:29 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
You are going to need a large thermal mass to store the heat.

A couple days in a row of clouds and you better have a decent backup source.
View Quote


I intend to insulate the water tank to ~R60.

If I do need a backup, I will have a propane/wood burner (have not decided which, yet)
Link Posted: 11/3/2014 11:41:45 AM EDT
[#21]
http://www.dickinsonmarine.com/dheaters.php

Just in case your solar dreams don't come true.
Link Posted: 11/3/2014 11:56:56 AM EDT
[#22]
If my solar theory doesn't work, I'm lookin' for a woodburning fireplace. Or potentially a propane heater, if I can store several years' worth.

I do like your idea, though. My Father's house runs off of diesel as a backup. He has one of those outdoor woodburners that pipe heated water to your floors.

I guess I was born to be kind of independent?
Link Posted: 11/3/2014 12:06:36 PM EDT
[#23]
Just apply the One is None rule and you should be good to go.
Link Posted: 11/3/2014 3:40:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Yeah, when I say R60 I mean TRUE R60. Not R60 cellulose with framing losses, but a cumulative R60 wall.

Yeah, I know it will be ~2 feet thick.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
One thing that screwed me up is that R-values are not unitless, and are usually quoted in Imperial, not metric units in the US.  So be careful with your area calculations, or convert your R-values over.

Otherwise, yes, the R value gives the total thermal resistance of the wall.  However, keep in mind that the convection conditions on the interior/exterior also provide some, and perhaps significant thermal resistance.  Thus your calculation could be Watts=area*deltaT/(R_wallcond+R_outsideconv+R_insideconv).


Yeah, when I say R60 I mean TRUE R60. Not R60 cellulose with framing losses, but a cumulative R60 wall.

Yeah, I know it will be ~2 feet thick.


What I'm saying is that your R60 is almost certainly an American R-60, which has units of ft^2*degF*hour/BTU, but you are doing the rest of your calculations in SI (meters, Watts, etc).  You need to translate your R-values into SI units.  An SI R60 wall would be like 12 feet thick.
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