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Posted: 7/5/2014 6:46:46 PM EDT
I think this might go here...

I've seen tons and tons of ar500 videos and almost nothing penetrates it.  Yesterday we were shooting at a 6x8 1/4" plate you can get off ebay for a plate carrier.  We shot 8mm Mauser 196gr from a 1944 Mauser 24.5", .308 150gr from a Springfield m1a 18", every 5.56mm you can think of including green tip from 10" to 18" barrels etc.  not even more than a few dings.  

A guy comes along and punches right through it 5 times with a ar15 like it was nothing!  I ask him what ammo he used and he just said normal 55gr FMJ!!  But he says with his 24" barrel they're doing 3700fps.  Was this guy telling the truth?  I get more velocity is better but even a normal 55gr round at that speed I'd think ar500 would stop it.  Any thoughts or calculators out there to guess his kinetic energy when a .308 m1a wouldn't even scratch it?  Was he lying?  Using AP rounds?
Link Posted: 7/5/2014 10:21:44 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I think this might go here...

I've seen tons and tons of ar500 videos and almost nothing penetrates it.  Yesterday we were shooting at a 6x8 1/4" plate you can get off ebay for a plate carrier.  We shot 8mm Mauser 196gr from a 1944 Mauser 24.5", .308 150gr from a Springfield m1a 18", every 5.56mm you can think of including green tip from 10" to 18" barrels etc.  not even more than a few dings.  

A guy comes along and punches right through it 5 times with a ar15 like it was nothing!  I ask him what ammo he used and he just said normal 55gr FMJ!!  But he says with his 24" barrel they're doing 3700fps.  Was this guy telling the truth?  I get more velocity is better but even a normal 55gr round at that speed I'd think ar500 would stop it.  Any thoughts or calculators out there to guess his kinetic energy when a .308 m1a wouldn't even scratch it?  Was he lying?  Using AP rounds?
View Quote



I've heard of similar things happening, although I wouldn't think it would be possible with factory ammo.  I'm not sure what the failure mode of AR500 looks like (brittle or ductile failure), which could have an effect on what penetrates it effectively.  Sometimes more speed/ lower mass is the ticket.
Link Posted: 7/5/2014 10:56:24 PM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 7/5/2014 11:19:16 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 7/6/2014 1:53:06 AM EDT
[#4]
Your power explanation is an interesting one.  I'm curious what's actually going on physically here- it seems as though most steels exhibit improved tensile properties with increasing strain rates, even explosion-speed strain rates  http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/otopdf/1999/oto99018.pdf.

I'm wondering if the AR500 is hard enough that the steel is experiencing brittle failure right at the impact location- if the round makes "clean" holes, this seems likely.  It probably just knocks a plug out.
Link Posted: 7/6/2014 4:33:49 AM EDT
[#5]
Wow great info and makes sense.  I do have to add...I remember the holes being very smooth through the middle of the plate, however, at the very front of the holes about 2mm wide and maybe 1mm deep the metal looked chipped like broken glass.  So it's like the round hit the plate and cracked it leaving rough jagged edges, but then drilled smooth through and out the back side the metal was sharp like any metal where a round goes through.  Ill try to get pics later to show it.
Link Posted: 7/6/2014 1:08:09 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Wow great info and makes sense.  I do have to add...I remember the holes being very smooth through the middle of the plate, however, at the very front of the holes about 2mm wide and maybe 1mm deep the metal looked chipped like broken glass.  So it's like the round hit the plate and cracked it leaving rough jagged edges, but then drilled smooth through and out the back side the metal was sharp like any metal where a round goes through.  Ill try to get pics later to show it.
View Quote


That would be exactly what I would expect to see from a brittle failure mode.  By chance, is the back of the hole a little larger in diameter than the front of the hole?  Brittle materials don't like to fail in pure shear- they usually fail along a 45 degree line so that there is some tensile component.  You can see this if you break a piece of chalk by grabbing it with two hands and rotating them axially in opposite directions.  The chalk will break along a ~45 degree curved line.

I'll offer a possible explanation from what little I remember from materials science.  Steel bends and deforms as forces cause bonds in its crystalline structure to shift around and change attachment points.  If the strain rate is large enough, there might not be time for the bonds to re-form, and you would get immediate brittle failure once the yield stress of the material was exceeded.  This could cause a sharp drop in the total force required to get the material to break.  However, I'm not an expert in this area, so take this with a grain of salt.
Link Posted: 7/6/2014 4:59:37 PM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 7/8/2014 9:05:32 AM EDT
[#9]
A 55 gr. .223 bullet traveling at 3700 fps exerts a great deal more pressure than the tensile strength of AR500 steel. KE scales with velocity squared, so 20% more velocity gives you 44% more KE.
Compare the KE above  - 107564.246 ft-lbf - to the tensile energy [tensile strength *volume of hole produced by the bullet, which is the thickness * area of the bullet] of AR500 (Chapel quotes 247,000 psi:http://www.chapelsteel.com/ar500-ar500f.html).
If you set the KE equal to the yield tensile energy you can solve for the max velocity of a 55 grain bullet that the steel will absorb without blowing out.
I think this is why armor plate gets thicker; a 50% increase in thickness is a linear 50% increase in protection / energy absorption capability. But I'm not a material scientist or armor designer.
 
Link Posted: 7/9/2014 9:22:52 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
A 55 gr. .223 bullet traveling at 3700 fps exerts a great deal more pressure than the tensile strength of AR500 steel. KE scales with velocity squared, so 20% more velocity gives you 44% more KE.

Compare the KE above  - 107564.246 ft-lbf - to the tensile energy [tensile strength *volume of hole produced by the bullet, which is the thickness * area of the bullet] of AR500 (Chapel quotes 247,000 psi:http://www.chapelsteel.com/ar500-ar500f.html).

If you set the KE equal to the yield tensile energy you can solve for the max velocity of a 55 grain bullet that the steel will absorb without blowing out.

I think this is why armor plate gets thicker; a 50% increase in thickness is a linear 50% increase in protection / energy absorption capability. But I'm not a material scientist or armor designer.
 
View Quote


What's interesting is that this calculation predicts that both .308 and regular-velocity .223 should easily penetrate the plate (like by a factor of 10 between right and left hand sides of the equation), which is apparently not the case.
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