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Posted: 2/16/2017 3:47:01 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/16/2017 9:47:15 AM EDT
[#1]
I don't know what EP or TIM means.  I only fly with one of two other guys.  We fly like we train and train like we fly.  It standardized for a reason (it is also lawyer and insurer approved)  We don't usually do post flight debrief unless something went sideways then we talk about it.
Link Posted: 2/16/2017 1:08:35 PM EDT
[#2]
Link Posted: 2/16/2017 3:09:16 PM EDT
[#3]
I'll admit that this now seems almost a lifetime ago for me but I was flight crew as a flight engineer on C-141B's for 5 years in the 90's. The crew complement for the jet to move meant it had to have a pilot, copilot and 2 flight engineers.

Normally the engineers heads were always in the books. We were always studying, brushing up, and just trying to know the jets for everything in the books we always carried on our flights. Not everyone was strong in everything... some were better with hydraulics or pressurization than others and would trade knowledge off with the guys that knew the engines inside and out or how the flight controls worked or whatever. We were always trying to maintain our edge and keep sharp.

Same thing went for the pilots... invariably they would run what-if scenarios, ask the engineer at the panel to help with running a simulated checklist, pulling an engine to idle as a crew to practice 3 engine procedures or emergency procedures or the like.

this was in the 1990's though and I'd venture a guess to say it's a different USAF now than it was then...

Just to add, this was on our local flights and line missions... any time we could talk tech or practice we would take the chance... but there were also times aplenty when we just flew the jet too... no studying, no practicing, nothing but doing the job.
Link Posted: 2/16/2017 5:03:51 PM EDT
[#4]
Link Posted: 2/17/2017 7:37:59 AM EDT
[#5]
I fly for a small 91/135 Charter/Management organization. All of our pilots fly multiple aircraft, single pilot and crew. We still do some of our training in the aircraft, and that training is pretty scripted and flown to the standard. Its also the only single pilot training we do.

For revenue legs, no training is done, and debriefs seem to be limited to notable items or failures to adhere to standardization. Both the Chief Pilot and myself come from the 121, so compared to guys from other pipelines, our standards for standardization and cockpit discipline are different.

In the training environment, debriefs are far more rigorous.
Link Posted: 2/17/2017 1:50:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Do you fly all your rides like a checkride and (for A code/captains) keep your crews to the same standard?
View Quote

Yes.  Military and airline.
Link Posted: 2/17/2017 9:45:15 PM EDT
[#7]
I have always tried to fly like I was trained.  I'm not smart enough to fly one way on the line, and another way in the sim.  And like a rather famous guy around our school house always said, "your hearing always gets better at the hearing."

If it's technique, I really don't care how it gets done, but if it's procedure, I make an effort to do it as written.

All our airplanes are FOQA, and the Bus will even phone home right away for some things.  Big brother is always watching.
Link Posted: 2/18/2017 9:21:14 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If it's technique, I really don't care how it gets done, but if it's procedure, I make an effort to do it as written.
View Quote
+1  Multiple ways the skin a cat, so to speak.  

I've worked jobs where we did every flight by the numbers, some were less so.  With a crew, it really depended on the specific crew.  

Overseas, it depended on the command pilot and the crew.  We had one command pilot who insisted on constantly drilling and training, not only the person in the second seat but the entire crew.  Not just the normal EP's, but also what happens if the PIC gets shot, or somebody sees someone shooting at us or if we had a passenger (ANA/ANSF or other local national) who got unruly.  We would simulate a "fight" in back, and how we would maneuver the aircraft to put them on their face.  During every situation, everybody had a role, and specific call-outs in a specific order. On the flip side, we had a command guy who refused to do training with anyone.  His attitude was simply, "I'm here to fly, they don't pay me to instruct or lead". When bad things did finally happen, it was with a command guy who was closer to first type than the second, thankfully.  Even then, we didn't cover everything as well as we should have.  First time, things didn't go as smooth as we would have liked, but we lived and learned.  Second time, it was the same crew, and funny thing, things went smooth and we worked like a crew.  

Later in my career, I did a 135 tour job for several years.  Easy to get into the habit of flying sloppy, a trap many pilots fell into.  I made a point of finding what challenges I could.  Flying very precisely.  Everything I could do by the letter.  EP's were 100% memory items.  Critiqued myself after every flight.  Whatever I could do to continue to improve and not lose skills while doing a mundane job.

Now, I am in the process of setting up a new Part 135 operation as a CP.  I am intent on establishing realistic standards that encourage the crew to work together as a team, to work simulations during the many ferry legs we are going to have.  In that respect, I won't ever have the luxury of not doing it by the numbers.  If a crew sees me doing something different, that will get back to the other pilots: "Yeah, I know we should do X, but if the Chief is doing Y, than I can too." For the pilots, I am encouraging the leadership aspect.  There is a team, but there has to be a leader on board.  That should be the pilot.  So establish leadership by example, and a great way to do that is to train together.  
Link Posted: 2/19/2017 12:13:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Yes, I try to fly, train, and perform on check rides to the same standards every flight. Be it in my Pt91 day job or flying my own airplanes, the DOD contracting I've recently done, my airline days and back as an ARNG rotor-head. Except when flying aerobatics, it's work hard to stay in the middle of the envelope and fly by the book.

Why? After forty-three years and burying forty-one fellow pilots I've known, it's kept me alive, despite some total dumbass stuff I did in my younger years.
Link Posted: 2/20/2017 12:09:30 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 2/25/2017 5:21:26 PM EDT
[#11]
I try to fly to the standards.  
Occasionally, I will do something fun that I would not do on a checkride, but not something that violates the rules/regs.  (Checks are ALL business.)
Link Posted: 2/25/2017 11:58:14 PM EDT
[#12]
I dont know what most of that shit means?    Mil lingo?  from WWII?

But yeah, in the airlines, you follow the checklists and the SOP.

The checkrides are legit.   Tough but fair.  Professional.  

pt. 91 can be reputable, or it can be a clownshow.  Depends on the Cpt. And CP.

The airplanes will rat you out these days, so, no shenannigans allowed.
Link Posted: 2/26/2017 12:06:50 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
+1  Multiple ways the skin a cat, so to speak.  

I've worked jobs where we did every flight by the numbers, some were less so.  With a crew, it really depended on the specific crew.  

Overseas, it depended on the command pilot and the crew.  We had one command pilot who insisted on constantly drilling and training, not only the person in the second seat but the entire crew.  Not just the normal EP's, but also what happens if the PIC gets shot, or somebody sees someone shooting at us or if we had a passenger (ANA/ANSF or other local national) who got unruly.  We would simulate a "fight" in back, and how we would maneuver the aircraft to put them on their face.  During every situation, everybody had a role, and specific call-outs in a specific order. On the flip side, we had a command guy who refused to do training with anyone.  His attitude was simply, "I'm here to fly, they don't pay me to instruct or lead". When bad things did finally happen, it was with a command guy who was closer to first type than the second, thankfully.  Even then, we didn't cover everything as well as we should have.  First time, things didn't go as smooth as we would have liked, but we lived and learned.  Second time, it was the same crew, and funny thing, things went smooth and we worked like a crew.  

Later in my career, I did a 135 tour job for several years.  Easy to get into the habit of flying sloppy, a trap many pilots fell into.  I made a point of finding what challenges I could.  Flying very precisely.  Everything I could do by the letter.  EP's were 100% memory items.  Critiqued myself after every flight.  Whatever I could do to continue to improve and not lose skills while doing a mundane job.

Now, I am in the process of setting up a new Part 135 operation as a CP.  I am intent on establishing realistic standards that encourage the crew to work together as a team, to work simulations during the many ferry legs we are going to have.  In that respect, I won't ever have the luxury of not doing it by the numbers.  If a crew sees me doing something different, that will get back to the other pilots: "Yeah, I know we should do X, but if the Chief is doing Y, than I can too." For the pilots, I am encouraging the leadership aspect.  There is a team, but there has to be a leader on board.  That should be the pilot.  So establish leadership by example, and a great way to do that is to train together.  
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
If it's technique, I really don't care how it gets done, but if it's procedure, I make an effort to do it as written.
+1  Multiple ways the skin a cat, so to speak.  

I've worked jobs where we did every flight by the numbers, some were less so.  With a crew, it really depended on the specific crew.  

Overseas, it depended on the command pilot and the crew.  We had one command pilot who insisted on constantly drilling and training, not only the person in the second seat but the entire crew.  Not just the normal EP's, but also what happens if the PIC gets shot, or somebody sees someone shooting at us or if we had a passenger (ANA/ANSF or other local national) who got unruly.  We would simulate a "fight" in back, and how we would maneuver the aircraft to put them on their face.  During every situation, everybody had a role, and specific call-outs in a specific order. On the flip side, we had a command guy who refused to do training with anyone.  His attitude was simply, "I'm here to fly, they don't pay me to instruct or lead". When bad things did finally happen, it was with a command guy who was closer to first type than the second, thankfully.  Even then, we didn't cover everything as well as we should have.  First time, things didn't go as smooth as we would have liked, but we lived and learned.  Second time, it was the same crew, and funny thing, things went smooth and we worked like a crew.  

Later in my career, I did a 135 tour job for several years.  Easy to get into the habit of flying sloppy, a trap many pilots fell into.  I made a point of finding what challenges I could.  Flying very precisely.  Everything I could do by the letter.  EP's were 100% memory items.  Critiqued myself after every flight.  Whatever I could do to continue to improve and not lose skills while doing a mundane job.

Now, I am in the process of setting up a new Part 135 operation as a CP.  I am intent on establishing realistic standards that encourage the crew to work together as a team, to work simulations during the many ferry legs we are going to have.  In that respect, I won't ever have the luxury of not doing it by the numbers.  If a crew sees me doing something different, that will get back to the other pilots: "Yeah, I know we should do X, but if the Chief is doing Y, than I can too." For the pilots, I am encouraging the leadership aspect.  There is a team, but there has to be a leader on board.  That should be the pilot.  So establish leadership by example, and a great way to do that is to train together.  


Be very, very careful asking your guys to do "Simulations" Enroute.   Always remeber Law of unintended consequences.   Do SOP.  Not simulated emergencies.  If you must,   Make it simple, such a "fly a published approach when practicable".
Link Posted: 2/26/2017 12:13:43 AM EDT
[#14]
I didn't.

I treated check rides like I had a cop behind me while driving. As soon as they were gone though, I did what I wanted and most of the time it was the "right" thing to do.

(UH-60A/L/M crew chief for the 1st ID & 82nd ABN)
Link Posted: 2/26/2017 12:16:19 AM EDT
[#15]
The pilots that did were also the ones that never smiled and were generally disliked. They are also the same type you wonder about being on the spectrum.

Just my observations
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