This happened a couple weeks ago to me on a training flight with a student.  I'm not sure how well I handled the situation as I was literally ready to fight someone just after it happend.  Now that I've had plenty of time to think about it, I think I may have overreacted to some degree and could have handled it better in other ways.  Hindsight is always 20/20 though.


I fly out of KSAV which is a Class C airport.  Because it's a busier airport, training flights in Cessna 172s are a low priority for the tower and approach.  When in the traffic pattern, it's not uncommon to get instructions to make 360 turns, extend upwind, downwind, change runways and everything else for traffic separation so the big boys can get in and out.  I understand it but it can be frustrating with students.  Only doing 3 or 4 landings in a hour isn't a good use of time.  Most of the time, for pattern work, I head to a noncontrolled field but especially like KTBR which is around 32 miles away from us.




KTBR is uncontrolled, in nice condition and the people at the FBO are super friendly.  There's also some nice mom and pop restaurants near the field if you happen to be there during lunch.  It's the fairly typical military field that is left over from the 40's.  It seems that most of the airports in this area are the 3 runway setup in a triangle pattern.  My student and I are heading that way when I get the AWOS with wind @170@12.  Runway 14 is the best choice here and I'm always a little cautious about this runway as Rwy 32 is the only runway with an ILS and it isn't uncommon to have others shooting the ILS even with a tail wind.  I've never had any major problem here though, I'll either come to a full stop and let other aircraft use the runway for a bit or they'll do the ILS 32 circle 14 and just enter a normal traffic pattern at TPA.  No big deal and I have no problem sharing the airport with others.




So...  We get the go ahead from Sav Departure to change frequencies and squawk VFR.  We change frequencies and I'm on the radio making appropriate radio calls.  As we're entering the downwind leg for 14, another aircraft gets on the radio.




Statesboro traffic, CAP927 ILS 32.




Statesboro traffic, Skyhawk 758GC, abeam the numbers left downwind 14 touch and go at Statesboro




Statesboro traffic, CAP927 ILS 32 touch and go - WTF man...  We can't both do touch and go's on the same piece of asphalt going the opposite direction.




That all happened back to back to back.  I assume that they've just begun the ILS and are at an IAF since I've been listening for a couple minutes and this is their initial radio call.  I tell the student to continue on with the traffic pattern and talk her way though the procedure and call out speeds and whatnot but we'll both keep a good lookout for the other guy just in case.




Statesboro traffic, Skyhawk 758GC, left base 14 at Statesboro and we'll come to a full stop for the other traffic - dividing attention between the airplane, student and the other traffic.




Statesboro traffic, Skyhawk 758GC turning final 14 at Statesboro




Uh CAP927 is about a uh 2 or 3 mile final for 32 touch and go. - Very surprised now, I've been looking but haven't seen them and I wasn't expecting them to be so close.  I was very wrong about them probably being at the IAF for their initial call.



(on the radio) Ok well I'm a 1.5-2 mile final on 14, the same and opposing runway as you.




CAP927 final 32 and uh full stop - I see them about this time as we're nearing the numbers and they're about 1/2-1 mile final.




I ended up taking the controls from my student and turned the normal landing in to a short field landing.  Hit just beyond the numbers, stood on the brakes and was off on a taxiway right at the intersecting runway which is less than 1000' from the threshold.  As we were exiting the runway, they were touching down.  They got off the runway on the taxiway that we would have used, had we done a normal landing.  He taxied to 14, took off and did some touch and goes and then off they went again.




I was so pissed off that anyone would land on the same runway, with a 10 knot tailwind, and not think anything about it.  I called another student who happens to be the airfield operation manager at KSAV and got the number to tower.  I confirmed that the aircraft was from the squadron that I'm familiar with and our maintenance service manager happens to be very active in.  The tower manager called back and said that he'd have to report it as a near mid-air collision which was fine by me.  I'd hear something from the FAA within a week.




I called the service manager and he confirmed who the two individuals flying were.  I know them both and have great respect for one and very little for the other.  After talking with the guy I know better, he confirmed the service managers and my suspicions on what was going on.  He was receiving an aircraft checkout in their new airplane and he was under the hood and concentrating on the instruments and wasn't paying attention to the radio at all.  When they were on short final and he removed his foggles, he saw us and heard me on the radio, added power to go to TPA and circle to 14 but the safety pilot/PIC said that the runway was long enough to land even with us on it so he felt pressured to continue to the approach.  Obviously, I strongly disagree with that and am upset that he wouldn't speak up and just go missed regardless of what the PIC said.  He also said that they didn't actually touch down until after I was off the runway.  Even if this is true, it's only because I made a super short landing and was off way sooner than we normally would have had I not taken control of the aircraft.




Were we close to actually hitting each other?  Absolutely not.


Had I not taken the controls from my student would we have been close?  Probably not but we would have both been using the same taxiway to exit the runway.


What if I hadn't been there and my student was doing her first solo?  That's where I'm getting really pissed off.


What if a deer ran out on the runway and we both went around?  This is where I'm getting pissed off again.




What could I have done differently?  We could have taken the scenic route and done a tour of downtown Statesboro, let the guy do his touch and go and then went in to the pattern and done our practice.  Not knowing his exact position in relationship to the airport complicated this.  He only good position report was when he was on a short final.  It would have been a lot easier had he said "ILS 32 7 mile final" or something along those lines...  That's what I do because not everyone, especially students, know what ILS/GPS/VOR/LOC/whatever else 32 would mean.  I also could have simply asked them to give a better position report with distance from the field.  I'm a huge believer in not having conversations on CTAF.  Just like most other places, there's tons of nearby airports on the same CTAF and it can be difficult to get in without stepping on someone even when there's no one else around the field.  I guess I simply didn't want to block up the CTAF so I just assumed they were at the IAF.




People make mistakes.  I make mistakes and am not afraid to admit it.  Willfully and knowingly approaching a runway that you KNOW has aircraft on it, which is landing the opposite direction and has the right-of-way is beyond me.  I couldn't imagine doing anything like that.




The FAA hasn't attempted to contact me yet and it's been something like 3 weeks.  I was told they'd contact me a couple months ago when I declared an emergency after losing my vacuum in IMC but they never contacted me for that either.


 

Base ball bat to the knees.

Had someone do that to me at Durango, once.   That's what happens when no one is in charge of the airport.

I stopped reading at CAP flight...

When I was getting my private I had a jumper pilot in a King Air take off with a tailwind as I was on final at a little airport that didn't have taxi ways.  He didn't want to wait for me to land and back taxi because more jumpers where waiting to get a lift.

I now never fly near fields that have jumpers.

EDIT:  The airport was Cedartown (4A4).

Tower cleared me to land on a DC8 that was on the active runway. That was a fun conversation.

Been there.  Except it was a G4.  KIWS, two years ago.

 
Yep.

Me too

You share a part of the responsibility. You were aware of conflicting traffic and didn't to communicate WITH them. Yes, you made radio calls, but they didn't respond to you. You both were talking, but not communicating. You did take steps to modify your landing - I would have called them directly to figure out what was going on or aborted early if they did not reply.

Yes, you had the logical "right of way" based on what you said the winds were, but at non-controlled airports there are no "active" runways and it is up to everyone using that field to communicate and decide what to do. What they were doing was 100% legal, even if not the best idea.

I fly out of an uncontrolled field and they have a jump operation there. They had a pilot that thought the skydiving center 'owned' the airport. So he thought that he and only he could decide what runway was 'active'. He would often take off and land down wind because it made for short taxis for him. I am flying a Pitts.... I don't do tailwinds on landing, it is just not worth adding that little bit of risk. I am on DW for 13 and he is taxing out for 31. I call DW 13 and he gets on the radio and starts yelling at me that the 'active' is 31. I reply that this is a non-controlled field and there is no 'active' and that the winds are clearly favoring 13. He then says that the 'preferred' runway is 31. I simply reply that I am on DW for 31 and am not going to land on 13 with a tailwind. Later he tries to bitch me out for not using the 'preferred' runway. I hand him an AFD and ask him to show me where in the AFD it has a preferred runway for this airport (there is not one). He says it is accepted local procedure. The chief CFI is next me and says... Ah, no. We don't have that. So I tell him that just because it is best for him means nothing to everyone else. This guy was trying to bully not only me, but students into doing TW TO/landings they didn't want to fight him and the CFI's had already had this issue with him. He was unprofessional and fired in about another week. Everyone had issues with him.

The difference here was we were communicating, not just talking on the radio.

Another time I am in the landing flare and at the end of the runway I see a glint of light. In the Pitts once in the three point attitude you can't see in front of you at all, so I hammer the throttle and yank the plane off and side step right.... A Cessna 172 flashes past me. I had been making calls and ,like you listening, but I had not heard a single call. About 2 mins later a call comes out.... "Blue Pitts, you up?" I reply. The guy says "Sorry, that was me. I was making calls, but was on the wrong frequency."

See out AWOS was out. So people would occasionally flip to AWOS to listen and then since they didn't hear anything forget to flip back to UNICOM.

The guy might have been like that jump pilot and just an ass with wings. But you could have avoided the situation by forcing him to communicate with you, or just abandoning that landing.

Typical CAP crap.

We have a CAP unit at my local airport and when they're in the air, mosy everyone stays on the ground.

I've never flown around CAP flights.  What's the problem with them?  Other than OP's experience, do they think the sky is all theirs and everybody else is in their way or something?

Agreed.

Many years of operating a helicopter IFR at busy uncontrolled airports has taught me that there is a very small percentage of people that...

1)  Truly understand regulations and procedures

2)  Understand how their actions (or inactions) affect other people

3)  Can maintain good situational awareness of traffic in the terminal area

and

4) Can communicate their intentions effectively and quickly adapt on the fly.


It can be hard for anyone to manage all 4 things at the same time perfectly.  I come up short in some area often.

But, frankly, we have plenty of guys that struggle with any of that, never mind all 4 at once.



Every time I've thought I'd seen every way that I could fuck up, I've eventually proved myself wrong.  

And I fuck up a lot less than most guys.

You too?

Last month there was a fatal accident at a runway intersection in Tampa Bay: http://wfla.com/2016/03/18/emergency-crews-respond-to-report-of-plane-crash-at-peter-o-knight-airport/

Supposedly a 172 and a twin Cessna were taking off at the same time and didn't see each other. As I understand it, the twin Cessna yanked hard and stalled it trying to avoid the other aircraft. Both people in the twin were killed. I have had an airplane pull out on the runway in front of me at that airport when I was on short final and I believe that Tampa Approach/Departure can be reached while on the ground at that airport and that aircraft on instrument flight plans are frequently off frequency.

I've experienced a similar situation to the OP in IMC involving multiple aircraft operating VFR in IMC. I'm not kidding.

I had an incident that really pissed me off at KDED (Deland, FL) that I posted about a few years back. Ceilings were around 900ft with tops around 4000 ft. I had a clearance to take off on 27 (I think) with a clearance and a void time; the window was 5 minutes. As soon as my clearance time starts, I hear a heavy Asian accent in a twin on a VOR approach calling out his legs ON THE OPPOSITE RUNWAY during my departure window. In the last minute of my window, I see the plane break out of the bases and continue overhead and I depart. About a minute after departing, I hear a Cessna off of KDED (same airport) calling and asking for flight following. There was a solid 3000ft of overcast that I had to climb through and it was regional -- as far as you could see visually when you broke out of the top. There was absolutely no way that Cessna was in VMC.

You don't want to hear this, but you were 50% at fault, maybe more.      I know, It's easy to get self rightious thinking "but the Wind is favoring MY Runway".      

Doesn't matter, you Knew there was conflicting traffic, and you continued the approach.   It's an uncontrolled field, the Runway doesn't belong to anybody.  

This is hard, (or impossible) for me to explain to you, from your current perspective, but you're only job right now is to develop the experiance and skill it takes to graduate out of general aviation.    

Weird stuff like this occurs monthly in GA, and it occurs maybe once every 5000 hours when flying jets within the system.  

It makes for a cool story, and a little excitement, but your primary duty is just to survive, with as little drama as possible.    Nothing else matters, except to survive to bitch about the crew meal, while you are making $300 per hour

I've had more than one altercation with CAP superstars.  The most infuriating one was a CAP pilot giving a ride to three kids and nearly hit me head on twice in the same pattern.

Turns out he had turned the radio down so he could talk to the kids uninterrupted.  I ate his soul on the ramp in front of the kids and I think the OP should have completely curb stomped both pilots.  If you don't have the balls to tell another pilot in your cockpit not to do something blatantly unsafe you shouldn't be flying.

In the pattern you have to have your head on a swivel especially at uncontrolled fields. I have been in the pattern too many times trying to figure out who was where. I have extended my downwind, made small clearing turns to see if someone was left or right, above or below me. To me really about 4 other aircraft in the pattern is my max allowed, I am not doing a 5 mile final. When I do touch and goes I like my crosswind, downwind, base and final to be at 4-5 o'clock relative to the runway on a right downwind and 7-8 o'clock  on a left downwind

Yep.   BTW, they like it when you refer to them as "Admiral" or  "Commodore".

"Air Marshall" works in a pinch.

Gruppenführer tends to ruffle some feathers, though.

Well said.

Seems to me that the original poster failed to take into account his equal responsibility to see and avoid other traffic. We all share in the responsibility to prevent accidents, including getting out of the way of someone else who may be making a bad decision. Lots of folks who have had the legal right of way; on the water, in the air, and on the roads are still dead for not yielding to another ship, plane or ground vehicle that collided with the right of way holder.

The foreign students, especially those from Asia and the middle-east doing practice at uncontrolled fields are the worst. I don't know if it's cultural or what, but a lot of them seem to be absolutely clueless when it comes to situational awareness and they don't seem to understand the concept of queuing.

I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Op-would you like someone to involve the feds the next time you fuck up?  You will make a big mistake sooner than later.    Uncontrolled field means just that and you must understand that many in GA don't have much if a clue what they are doing or what the rules are.  Use this as a learning experience and move on.

NASA reports all around, although I think you're too late.

And there's a problem with people not making position reports, or saying things like "N1234X at FLUKY inbound for the GPS 34 approach"  If the other traffic is VFR only, that position report is meaningless.  Even if you're IFR current, if you're not IFR at the moment, and don't have your plates/EFB handy, it's not very helpful.

There's what's legal and what's courteous.

Based on the OP's post, the other aircraft was shooting the ILS and was on final approach when OP was on downwind.

Legally, the other aircraft has the right of way (91.113g).  However, both pilots should've made an effort to work things out.

Any more than 4 planes in the pattern, and if most are student pilots, an uncontrolled field, on UNICOM, and you are asking for it. I would not be under the hood at an uncontrolled field with a crapload of student pilots making touch and goes. Waste of money to be in a nice approach and have the safety pilot take away the aircraft. If the field was IFR, then by all means

Can you explain why you think the other plane had legal ROW based on 91.113g?

"(g) Landing. Aircraft, while on final approach to land or while landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or operating on the surface, except that they shall not take advantage of this rule to force an aircraft off the runway surface which has already landed and is attempting to make way for an aircraft on final approach. When two or more aircraft are approaching an airport for the purpose of landing, the aircraft at the lower altitude has the right-of-way, but it shall not take advantage of this rule to cut in front of another which is on final approach to land or to overtake that aircraft. "

Are you considering a plane on an Inst approach to be "on final"? The FAF is at 1800 and at 5NM out.
Not arguing, just wondering where we can consider an aircraft to be "on final".... I mean I could do a 10 mile final starting at 4K feet. Would that mean I have ROW over some guy on DW at 1000K?

Yeah, my airport has a Dropzone on it.... Little parachute on the sectional and notation on the AFD. Anyway when a pilot calls and says they are going to fly over the field.... About every pilot in the area AND the dropzone manifest get on the radio and tell them not to fly over the top... And they fly right over the top anyway.

2nd page and GD disappoints.


"He's too close for missiles Goose, I'm switching to guns"

The issue of right of way only extends to aircraft that are in conflict with each other.  If the guy is 10 miles out on final approach in a 152, and you're abeam the numbers in your 172....there's no right of way issue if you can safely land without impacting the other aircraft.  I am involved in this type of situation fairly often when I'm in the pattern and guys are shooting instrument approaches.  If I can't safely make it ill extend in order to give way and allow the other aircraft to land first.

In the case of the OP, there was clearly a conflict between the two aircraft.  According to the FAA, the aircraft on final approach has the legal right of way.

To answer your second question, I would logically conclude that an aircraft established on the final approach course of an IAP is indeed on final.  From the pilot/controller glossary under traffic pattern:

e. Final Approach. A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended runway centerline. The final approach normally extends from the base leg to the runway. An aircraft making a straight-in approach VFR is also considered to be on final approach.

Yes, an airplane lined up on a straight in approach is "On final approach to land"   That part is obvious, and not even fodder for debate.  

People are supposed to use common sense, tempered with conservative judgement, and a strong will to live.   We have it easy today, because we have radios.

There are plenty of places where you can have a midair, crash and everybody burn to death, with neither party breaking any FAR's.

Uncontrolled airports are not the place for self-righteous indignation over vague wording in the FAR's.  

Amen.

So an airplane on a 20 mile "final" has the right away according to you?

Yes, common sense is king. But I was asking why he said LEGALLY. As in lets say this was an issue and the FAA became involved. I asked because it was a vague wording and I was hoping someone that made a claim would be willing to share WHY he made that claim.

Someone else said after the FAF he thought would be considered "final", and that makes sense to me. But you are claiming a guy on a 10 mile "final" would be on final. So where does that stop? 20 miles? 30 miles?

You will have to forgive me for asking a clarification question..... I was always told not to jump down the throat of someone who asked a question in the pursuit of education. I guess you never heard of that concept?

Like I stated before, someone aligned on the final approach course (can be 40+ miles at ORD on the high and wide) has the right of way.  That right of way only comes in to play if there's a conflict.

If some schmoe calls 15 mile final and you're on base, there's (typically) no conflict.  Continue as usual.  If you're on the departure leg, and some guy calls 10 mile final, there might be an issue by the time you get to the base/final leg.  In this case, traffic already established on final has right of way, even if you're in the pattern.

That's the legal end of things.  The polite/courteous way to share the pattern is a whole different story.

Been busy and just had a second to read everything...





Had I known there was a high potential for a traffic conflict with that, I would have extended my downwind or just left the area and came back later for landings...  Just like I've done many times before.

 

No offense, but you were NOT communicating with him. You were talking AT him. Communication is four parts:
1. Message sent
2. Method sent
3. Reception
4 Recognition

You only hit points one and two. You had no idea if the message was received or if was understood.



You thought you had the right of way so you assumed he would change his course of action. You were not communicating, you were yelling in a crowd and hoping the other guy would give you the right of way.

Back to my Pitts story. I am on the DW and I make the call, "Airglades traffic, Blue Pitts, Downwind 13, Airglades." While I am doing this I am scanning the pattern, scanning the runway, the turn offs, the taxi way, even looking at the fuel farm and the hangars to see if any aircraft is out." I then turned Base and called "Airglades, Blue Pitts, Right Base 13, Airglades." Nothing on the radio. Then I roll into my final, "Airglades, Blue Pitts Base to Final 13, Airglades." Still nothing. As I am starting to flare I see a flash at the end of 31. I hit the power side step and see a 172 on short final then flash by me.

I had the right of way. I was landing into the wind. I was in the flare. I had made radio calls. I had every legal right to be where I was.... And if I didn't go around, I might be dead right now. The 172 guy was on the wrong freq. He too thought he was "communicating" but he was not.  



No one is saying you didn't look. All we are saying is that you said you were communicating and you were not. You were just talking.

I just told you something.... I just yelled it out at the top of my lungs in my living room..... Can I claim I 'communicated" with you? Can I be upset if you don't do what I yelled?  All I am suggesting is next time try to directly communicate with possible traffic.... "Cap aircraft what is your exact position?" Would of most likely fixed the issue.  If you don't get an answer and you are not EXACTLY sure where they are, it now becomes your responsibility to avoid him because he has his head up his ass.

And yes, I also disagree that a guy on a 10 mile final should have the right of way automatically.... Which is why I tried asking the guy about his legal interpretation of the reg he cited.  

I'm not disagreeing with you at all...



Sender



Symbols (written and spoken)



Receiver interpreting symbols



Sender ensuring message was interpreted correctly.






When there's 2 people in the room and I go, "This is where I'm at" and the other goes "I'm here".  Immediately, I respond with "I'm here and doing this".  We're talking back and forth.  We are having a conversation.  Without going:  Hey dummy...  What did I just say? How can you ensure the symbols were properly interpreted.  When we're in the traffic pattern, all we're doing is, like you said, yelling in a room and hoping everyone understands what we're saying.  That's why when we get our certificates, English Proficient is endorsed on the back which is given by the examiner.






We're speaking the same language.  Its my job to announce, it's my job to listen.  The CTAF isn't the place to have a conversation.  There's 10 different airports all on the same CTAF and it's hard enough getting a word in sometimes, especially when people are having a conversation...  Hey Bob, is that you?  Hey, how's this?  It's Larry...   I know this isn't what you're advocating but I'm just using the conversation as an example.  I've always been taught by instructions and examiners, and I teach that you announce and you listen.  That's why I essentially made the same two radio calls back to back after hearing his radio call, it's me going, this doesn't sound exactly right, I'm repeating what I just said to ensure you understand.  This guy simply wasn't listening or what I suspect, simply didn't care.  That's why this pissed me off so much more than ground putting me in front of a landing King Air.



Also...  That's why I wrote "Communicating TO him" instead of using "with"


I'll edit:  When I realized that communication wasn't happening, that's the point where I could (should) have left the area and went somewhere else.  My mindset was he's established himself somewhere on the ILS and I'll just keep an eye out for him and everything will be good because I'll see him and can take corrective action from there -or- he'll wake up and start communicating better and/or he'll do a low approach or simply circle to land on the runway I was using.



 

An update on that crash in Tampa at KTPF; apparently both pilots were communicating on CTAF and nobody was listening when they both announced that they were taking off on intersecting runways. It cost two people their lives.

ETA: I have made the mistake of being on the wrong frequency. Coming in to land on short final, I get a call from another pilot to go out to the acro practice area, so I go missed, head out and get on our private frequency a few miles away. I come back, am announcing everything and then I get a call from one of the acro guys "hey, you're on the wrong frequency." I have an "oh shit" moment, switch to CTAF and there were no issues, but it could've been one of those situations. I purchased a Xaon traffic monitor used for a couple hundred dollars and find it to be valuable. It doesn't tell you much, but when it talks to you and says there's another aircraft in the vicinity, it increases your vigilance to identify the other target when your workload may be focused elsewhere. I've been at cruise at 8500 AGL/MSL and had an acrobatic airplane come up vertically within a couple hundred yards of me before. ATC alerted me to that one "type and altitude unknown, appears to be maneuvering" I don't know if he ever saw me.

Technically, whoever was lower on final had the right-of-way.  Winds ain't in it.  But yes, I would have been talking to them.

That was almost three years ago.  I love mine.

You should pay for Skywatch, at the very least.  I'm not kidding.     There is really no excuse for not having it.

^ How does SkyWatch compare to just having an ADS-B transponder? It looks like the price of the unit is more than the transponder. Those of us with light aircraft and limited funds are constantly having to compromise. Most of the fleet lack modern engine monitors with useful information like individual cylinder EGT/CHT. We have an ADS-B mandate around the corner; we could use more backup instruments for IFR operations, onboard weather, reserves for engine issues, et cetera. How do you say that you're tight on funds, need to build time and are deciding between taking your chances between buying a life raft or an engine monitor this month? A $200 traffic monitor isn't SkyWatch, but it's better than nothing.