User Panel
Posted: 7/28/2015 10:54:40 AM EDT
http://www.wsj.com/articles/pilot-shortage-halves-republic-airways-stock-price-1438016508
Republic Airways Holdings Inc. said a worsening pilot shortage is forcing it to cut its flying for big U.S. airlines, hurting the regional carrier’s profit and sending its stock plummeting by half. Republic, which flies about 1,250 flights a day for big U.S. airlines, said it had reduced flying by 4% in the second quarter and is discussing further cuts with its airline partners through the first half of 2016—some of the biggest tangible effects of a pilot shortage in the U.S. Shares in Republic fell 56% to $3.77 on the Nasdaq Stock Market on Monday, near a three-year low and off 74% this year. Republic attributed its problems in part to a series of new government rules. In August 2013, the Federal Aviation Administration raised the minimum flight experience required for most commercial passenger pilots to 1,500 hours from 250, increasing the time and cost to become a pilot. In January 2014, the agency also began requiring more rest for pilots, reducing their productivity by 5% to 7%, Republic said. Republic said in a news release late Friday that those changes, combined with a continuing labor dispute with its pilots, are leaving it with too few aviators to fly the schedules demanded by its three airline partners: American Airlines Group Inc., United Continental Holdings Inc. and Delta Air Lines Inc. Republic said it expects to shrink its fleet as a result. Regional carriers such as Republic operate roughly half of all domestic flights in the U.S. and carry about 20% of the passengers. Republic is the second-largest U.S. regional carrier, after SkyWest Inc. There is much debate within the U.S. airline industry over what is causing the tight supply of pilots. The major pilot unions have said there is no shortage of qualified pilots, only a shortage of those who are willing to work for the low pay the airlines offer. The major airlines have said they aren’t struggling to find pilots, though the difficulties of their regional-airline partners are having an impact. United, for example, attributed some of its cuts at its former Cleveland hub last year to its regional partners’ shortage of pilots. The Government Accountability Office said in a report last year that it “found mixed evidence regarding the extent of a shortage of airline pilots.” Republic last year removed 27 of its 243 aircraft from service because of a lack of pilots. Republic Chief Executive Bryan Bedford said in an interview at the time that “the short-term answer is the aviation industry is just going to get smaller.” Republic has been unable to reach a new labor contract with its 2,200 unionized pilots since 2007. Republic said the lack of a new contract is leading more pilots to leave and is hurting its ability to attract new aviators. The company said it has offered its pilots compensation and work rules that would put them ahead of their peers, but the aviators rejected the proposal last year. Negotiations have been stalled since April, though talks are scheduled for this week. Republic said in the news release, “due to the [pilots union’s] unrealistic bargaining position, the company cannot predict with any certainty a timeline for resolution.” Republic on Friday said its second-quarter profit would be between $4 million and $5 million, or eight to 10 cents a share. Prior guidance had estimated earnings between 20 cents and 30 cents a share. Republic rescinded all previously issued financial guidance and analysts dramatically downgraded their estimates and ratings for the carrier. |
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If they paid new hire FOs $150K/year, I bet they would have all the pilots they needed.
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Awww...I'm so sad to hear those dirtbags are suffering.
Pay a liveable wage and this won't be an issue. |
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As a former member of the Congregation of the Reverend Bedford, I'm neither shocked nor surprised.
The regionals are going to need to adapt or die. Perhaps adapt and die. No fucks will be given either way. |
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Summing up the problem perfectly is this hidden gem in the article:
"...Regional carriers such as Republic operate roughly half of all domestic flights in the U.S. and carry about 20% of the passengers..." The US Airspace system cannot afford to subsidize such unproductive use of the airways and airports much longer. The stock price will stay down for sometime as it might be "capitals" acknowledgment of the failed business model of regional airlines flying high seat mile cost airplanes on subsidized (by the mainline carriers) routes. Great time to be short selling those stocks. Before 1983-85 there was not much of a commuter/regional airline business in the US, there won't be much of one again in another ten years. Capital will always seek the lowest cost of production, for the Regional Airlines, the hay days are over. |
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Fuck BB.
Pay us right mother fucker, or this place burns down Dicated, not read or previewed, Management |
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Summing up the problem perfectly is this hidden gem in the article: "...Regional carriers such as Republic operate roughly half of all domestic flights in the U.S. and carry about 20% of the passengers..." The US Airspace system cannot afford to subsidize such unproductive use of the airways and airports much longer. The stock price will stay down for sometime as it might be "capitals" acknowledgment of the failed business model of regional airlines flying high seat mile cost airplanes on subsidized (by the mainline carriers) routes. Great time to be short selling those stocks. Before 1983-85 there was not much of a commuter/regional airline business in the US, there won't be much of one again in another ten years. Capital will always seek the lowest cost of production, for the Regional Airlines, the hay days are over. View Quote Mainline didn't set up regional airlines as a way to waste capital. They did it because regionals brought premium passengers to the hubs. With the rise of LLCs, this became even more important. The mainline management and employees both benefited from the exploitive contracts and perpetual contract whipsaw from the regionals. You'll note how all of the major ALPA pilot groups defended their scope agreements, which is to say they did nothing to defend their scope. The seventy seat airplane in your time was a DC-9. Now it's a CRJ, with wildly different career expectations. Your career was made possible by reliance on regional carriers. |
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You forgot about they brought Frontier and sold it afterwards.
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Worked on the maintenance side for one year and left because I saw how horrible they are managed. To save republic they need to get rid of all the management and hire new from outside the company. People that aren't douches and know a little about aviation.
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Seven years to reach a contract. An obvious case of good faith bargainng by management View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Fuck BB. Pay us right mother fucker, or this place burns down Dicated, not read or previewed, Management Seven years to reach a contract. An obvious case of good faith bargainng by management I hope to God we'll get released to strike. I swear I'm bringing a bbq and a stereo system (sigh) I guess a man can dream |
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Gotta pay to play and the only people management want to pay is themselves.
Sad thing is, these dumb fvcks running companies that can't find employees willfully refuse to acknowledge the true reason which is that the compensation is to low for the skill and work involved. I'd bet they haven't cut their OWN pay though..................... |
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So the other day the company came out with its, last last last last best and final offer
To be honest it is quite a bit better than our current contract although there is vague wording in it and it still leaves much to be desired. Either way, if it goes to a vote its going to be close |
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Bryan backtracked on the previously agreed to TAs.
Fuck that guy. Vote No. |
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This thread was a fun read. :)
I know a few fixed wing guys working smaller corporate outfits for decent pay who've received unsolicited recruiting mailers. They all laugh. My favorite comment from one was "Ain't no jet shiny enough for $17k/year." Here's to hoping a few regionals die off and the rest get the message so things at least reach a reasonable pay level. |
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This thread was a fun read. :) I know a few fixed wing guys working smaller corporate outfits for decent pay who've received unsolicited recruiting mailers. They all laugh. My favorite comment from one was "Ain't no jet shiny enough for $17k/year." Here's to hoping a few regionals die off and the rest get the message so things at least reach a reasonable pay level. View Quote Delta and United better have a plan to mainline their 70 and 90 seat jets. Everytime I see a CRJ900 I just shake my head. |
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Delta and United better have a plan to mainline their 70 and 90 seat jets. Everytime I see a CRJ900 I just shake my head. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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This thread was a fun read. :) I know a few fixed wing guys working smaller corporate outfits for decent pay who've received unsolicited recruiting mailers. They all laugh. My favorite comment from one was "Ain't no jet shiny enough for $17k/year." Here's to hoping a few regionals die off and the rest get the message so things at least reach a reasonable pay level. Delta and United better have a plan to mainline their 70 and 90 seat jets. Everytime I see a CRJ900 I just shake my head. The just rejected Delta TA did exactly that, and it's expected that the next contract will do the same thing. My min-time Pt 135 Citation F/Os get paid more than $40k per year working 16-18 days a month. Why would they give that up for any regional? |
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The just rejected Delta TA did exactly that, and it's expected that the next contract will do the same thing. My min-time Pt 135 Citation F/Os get paid more than $40k per year working 16-18 days a month. Why would they give that up for any regional? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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This thread was a fun read. :) I know a few fixed wing guys working smaller corporate outfits for decent pay who've received unsolicited recruiting mailers. They all laugh. My favorite comment from one was "Ain't no jet shiny enough for $17k/year." Here's to hoping a few regionals die off and the rest get the message so things at least reach a reasonable pay level. Delta and United better have a plan to mainline their 70 and 90 seat jets. Everytime I see a CRJ900 I just shake my head. The just rejected Delta TA did exactly that, and it's expected that the next contract will do the same thing. My min-time Pt 135 Citation F/Os get paid more than $40k per year working 16-18 days a month. Why would they give that up for any regional? Considering what the DL guys did to the industry with RJs in the first place, I hope their contract both kills the RJs and starts the ball rolling in the direction on a pay and retirement level to where it needs to go. Regarding the Citation F/Os depending on their situation, they shouldn't. However, a 5000 TT, current 121 LCA with 2000 of TPIC is probably going to get more looks than a 5000 Citation SIC. That said, there are probably 20 regional jobs for every 135 job, and getting those golden eggroll jobs are as much a crap shoot as anything else. ETA: The Mainline pilot groups created this situation as much as anyone else. Blaming the 25 year old for Shiny Jet Syndrome is misplaced anger. |
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I'll agree that the higher time regional Captain will get an interview much sooner. But my F/O's will be 1000 hour PIC Captains soon enough. In less than two years "Prime" will again be any pilot with a college degree and 1000 hours of turbine (PIC) time, just like mid 1986-1992.
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I'll agree that the higher time regional Captain will get an interview much sooner. But my F/O's will be 1000 hour PIC Captains soon enough. In less than two years "Prime" will again be any pilot with a college degree and 1000 hours of turbine (PIC) time, just like mid 1986-1992. View Quote Laughable. Five hundred applicants for every slot at a major. |
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Laughable. Five hundred applicants for every slot at a major. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I'll agree that the higher time regional Captain will get an interview much sooner. But my F/O's will be 1000 hour PIC Captains soon enough. In less than two years "Prime" will again be any pilot with a college degree and 1000 hours of turbine (PIC) time, just like mid 1986-1992. Laughable. Five hundred applicants for every slot at a major. Where do you get this number? I am just curious. |
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Where do you get this number? I am just curious. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I'll agree that the higher time regional Captain will get an interview much sooner. But my F/O's will be 1000 hour PIC Captains soon enough. In less than two years "Prime" will again be any pilot with a college degree and 1000 hours of turbine (PIC) time, just like mid 1986-1992. Laughable. Five hundred applicants for every slot at a major. Where do you get this number? I am just curious. Based off reported numbers in the WN and FX pilot pools versus pilots hired by both airlines YTD. I chose those two because they are among the last with a hard 1000TPIC requirement. |
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Republic and Mesa just lost their American flying. On top of terrible performance, Mesa was just caught hiring guys that didn't have ATP mins.
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I'll agree that the higher time regional Captain will get an interview much sooner. But my F/O's will be 1000 hour PIC Captains soon enough. In less than two years "Prime" will again be any pilot with a college degree and 1000 hours of turbine (PIC) time, just like mid 1986-1992. View Quote You don't need jet PIC as much and soon it will not mean anything. Delta has been hiring 3000 TT guys with no PIC as well as United and Southwest is starting to do it too. The 121 guy will always get chosen over a 135 guy. |
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You don't need jet PIC as much and soon it will not mean anything. Delta has been hiring 3000 TT guys with no PIC as well as United and Southwest is starting to do it too. The 121 guy will always get chosen over a 135 guy. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I'll agree that the higher time regional Captain will get an interview much sooner. But my F/O's will be 1000 hour PIC Captains soon enough. In less than two years "Prime" will again be any pilot with a college degree and 1000 hours of turbine (PIC) time, just like mid 1986-1992. You don't need jet PIC as much and soon it will not mean anything. Delta has been hiring 3000 TT guys with no PIC as well as United and Southwest is starting to do it too. The 121 guy will always get chosen over a 135 guy. I'd bet a kidney those no PIC guys and gals had lots of inside help. They weren't hired on the competitive strength of their resumes. |
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Not sure that's the case Screechjet1, numbers don't lie. Based on your 500:1 ratio, that means for every one of the 135 or so pilots that Delta hires every month, they would have to have over 800,000 indivual applicants on file every year. There are not that many ATP pilots in the entire world.
In 1987 at age 28 with a Bachlors degree, I had 2800 TT, 1200 multi, of which was half SIC in a Metroliner and 800 Army helicopter. It looks like this hiring wave is hitting that qualification point a bit sooner than it did in the 1986-92 time frame. I got calls for interviews by American, United, FedEx, Delta and Northwest within ten weeks of each other at that time and went with Northwest because they had no B scale and made the first offer. One of my NWA classmates bailed from American for the job with NWA. The Big 3 are all looking at the same 8000-12000 resumes, just like FedEx and Southwest. They will blow through those that can be hired pretty quickly. As I have said before, 50% of that stack are not hireable in the eyes of the HR departments. You can keep screaming from the street corner that there is no shortage, but the canceled flights at the regionals, CFII and regional hiring bonuses and 2-3k new hire major pilots this year appear to point to a different conclusion. |
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There is a nationwide charter/fractional with job ads for King Air 350 f/o-$50/55,000 captain-$80,000 8 days on 6 days off scheduled. +$59 day per diem. Things are looking up.
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Not sure that's the case Screechjet1, numbers don't lie. Based on your 500:1 ratio, that means for every one of the 135 or so pilots that Delta hires every month, they would have to have over 800,000 indivual applicants on file every year. There are not that many ATP pilots in the entire world. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Not sure that's the case Screechjet1, numbers don't lie. Based on your 500:1 ratio, that means for every one of the 135 or so pilots that Delta hires every month, they would have to have over 800,000 indivual applicants on file every year. There are not that many ATP pilots in the entire world. Currently, Delta is on a hiring freeze. I know two people in the pool waiting. Its a training issue as I understand it. I guess the math is different every time you look. Every individual hired is beating odds that suggest that 250-500 qualified people were available to be hired for that specific slot. Plus, as we discussed eariler, the big Three quals are much lower than WN, UPS or FX, all of whom have a hard 1000TPIC requirement. There is a recharge rate of people into the pool as well. So, to me it is rather superficial analysis to divide class by total applicants, when the more proper view is total qualified applicants divided by each individual position hired on a monthly rotating basis. In 1987 at age 28 with a Bachlors degree, I had 2800 TT, 1200 multi, of which was half SIC in a Metroliner and 800 Army helicopter. It looks like this hiring wave is hitting that qualification point a bit sooner than it did in the 1986-92 time frame. Potentially for .mil rated guys. For others, not so much. I can point to any number of 5000+TT, 1000+TPIC, College Degree, multiple type people who are not getting calls. The Big 3 are all looking at the same 8000-12000 resumes, just like FedEx and Southwest. They will blow through those that can be hired pretty quickly. As I have said before, 50% of that stack are not hireable in the eyes of the HR departments. See the earlier point above...the issue here is the 10000 resumes versus that 100 slots that month. To go into some more detail, the trick has always been getting past the filters to get to a human. From the 1980s to the early 2000s, the magic requirements were the 1000TPIC and perhaps a LCA position or other named position. The current environment is much more dependent on getting facetime with internal hiring people to be pulled from the databases. In short, getting in front of the person is harder. To illustrate, AS is pretty much requiring people attend anywhere from 2-5 hiring events. Plus, what is the disqualification in the eyes of HR? How picky can they be if there really is a "shortage." You can keep screaming from the street corner that there is no shortage, but the canceled flights at the regionals, CFII and regional hiring bonuses and 2-3k new hire major pilots this year appear to point to a different conclusion.
These are jobs that are simply not career positions. Ask a Comair, AirWis or ACA what their career regional job was like in 2004 and what it was a matter of months later. If those were career positions, people would not be leaving. A lopsided supply demand curve is not shortage. They are two different things. This isn't screaming. This is just the hard analysis. There are plenty of highly qualified bodies applying every month at US based career flying jobs. |
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Apparently the union rejected the company BARFO without even putting it to the membership for a vote. Apparently, the company unilaterally changed 17 or more previously agreed TAs. What a slap in the face.
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Currently, Delta is on a hiring freeze. I know two people in the pool waiting. Its a training issue as I understand it. I guess the math is different every time you look. Every individual hired is beating odds that suggest that 250-500 qualified people were available to be hired for that specific slot. Plus, as we discussed eariler, the big Three quals are much lower than WN, UPS or FX, all of whom have a hard 1000TPIC requirement. There is a recharge rate of people into the pool as well. So, to me it is rather superficial analysis to divide class by total applicants, when the more proper view is total qualified applicants divided by each individual position hired on a monthly rotating basis. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Currently, Delta is on a hiring freeze. I know two people in the pool waiting. Its a training issue as I understand it. I guess the math is different every time you look. Every individual hired is beating odds that suggest that 250-500 qualified people were available to be hired for that specific slot. Plus, as we discussed eariler, the big Three quals are much lower than WN, UPS or FX, all of whom have a hard 1000TPIC requirement. There is a recharge rate of people into the pool as well. So, to me it is rather superficial analysis to divide class by total applicants, when the more proper view is total qualified applicants divided by each individual position hired on a monthly rotating basis. We're not on a hiring freeze, just throttled back big time. As of today we are still interviewing, albeit ~5/day. Class sizes have been cut dramatically due to a backup in the training pipeline. Should be temporary, while we get a few more sims up online. Everything else he said is spot on. Latest from the hiring guys is we are expected to hire 800-1000 next year. Quoted:
3000TT with no TPIC or PIC at all? Had a guy in my DAL class that had 3,500TT and zero TPIC. Another guy had ~4,500 and only about 300 TPIC. Neither of them knew how they got that (read: no daddy as a chief pilot), they we're just happy/luck to be there (like the rest of us). In my AAL class we had one guy who had zero TPIC. There was not a single 135 guy in AAL class or my DAL class. Quoted:
Potentially for .mil rated guys. For others, not so much. I can point to any number of 5000+TT, 1000+TPIC, College Degree, multiple type people who are not getting calls. True story. But I will say there are a decent amount of straight civilian guys with <5,000TT and <1000 TPIC getting hired at Legacies...just as there are TONS of guys with much more time than that, NOT getting hired. It's all a crapshoot. |
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RagingWhite: Hard to know what's in people's backgrounds that we don't know about but simple pre-interview background checks turn up. It's not as much of a crap shoot as you might think. A pilot might look good on paper, but if they have a DUI, or low credit score or multiple typos on their apps, they never get past the gate keepers in HR.
I would also point out that HR departments look at social media/forums and they have a history of passing by lots of people with controversial posts. Good thing for me that most of my stupid stuff was done before the internet came about...if you have tens of thousands of Internet posts, that might be one of the things preventing you from moving up in this field. |
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Source? We haven't heard anything about that. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Republic and Mesa just lost their American flying. On top of terrible performance, Mesa was just caught hiring guys that didn't have ATP mins. Source? We haven't heard anything about that. I haven't heard that either and I'm about an hour out of flying a US/American flight back to Memphis. Still, at this point, nothing would surprise me. |
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Quoted: I haven't heard that either and I'm about an hour out of flying a US/American flight back to Memphis. Still, at this point, nothing would surprise me. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Republic and Mesa just lost their American flying. On top of terrible performance, Mesa was just caught hiring guys that didn't have ATP mins. Source? We haven't heard anything about that. I haven't heard that either and I'm about an hour out of flying a US/American flight back to Memphis. Still, at this point, nothing would surprise me. |
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Sigh
the future is looking grim Im trying to make a dollar out of living in this sin |
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As my separation from active duty comes near, I made the mistake of applying to a few regionals. Now, they won't quit calling. I suppose it's my fault. I got a message that my free pilotcredentials account was going to expire. Well, I didn't want to lose all my letters of recommendation for Delta, so I paid my $65. After paying the money, it was easy to add a few regional airlines to the profile. Of course I did this before looking at what they paid. Hell, a months pay from most of these places doesn't even cover my mortgage after taxes. I don't see how anyone can afford to fly for some of these places.
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Need a job? A local Pt 135 Jet company that I contract for is looking for Citation Captain's ($72-76k to start) and F/O's ($30-34k to start). No type is OK if you are qualified, they send all new hires to CAE in DFW for the initial type program and type you as PIC even if you are hired as an F/O. Eight days on six days off and they airline you from home to meet your airplane, no need to move to Iowa, just live within one hour of an acceptable air service airport.
PM me only if you're interested, no tire kickers. It's a far better job than any regional airline. |
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Need a job? A local Pt 135 Jet company that I contract for is looking for Citation Captain's and F/O's. No type is OK if you are qualified, they send all new hires to CAE in DFW for the initial type program and type you as PIC even if you are hired as an F/O. Eight days on six days off and they airline you from home to meet your airplane, no need to move to Iowa. PM me only if you're interested, no tire kickers. It's a far better job than any regional airline. View Quote I will tell anyone that an 8/6 schedule is awesome. It pretty much guarantees every other Wed and two weekends off a month. Sounds like a good gig, and you are exactly right...unless you are very senior at a large regional, its in all likelihood a better job, period. Especially with no commute. I can tell you from reality that commuting simply sucks. |
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I don't need a job, but if I did while waiting for the majors to call, I'd be looking into charter and fractional gigs way before the regionals.
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Just curious...what kind of salary expectations are we talking about? Wasn't sure if the $150k was a bit sarcastic or that was what they were actually trying to negotiate.
I would think that like most other markets that wages would follow fairly loosely a law of supply and demand, but that doesn't necessarily apply in a union environment. |
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Just curious...what kind of salary expectations are we talking about? Wasn't sure if the $150k was a bit sarcastic or that was what they were actually trying to negotiate. I would think that like most other markets that wages would follow fairly loosely a law of supply and demand, but that doesn't necessarily apply in a union environment. View Quote Not sure if you were directing the question at me, but I was thinking around $50K~ish which is what some of these charter places pay. I looked at some regionals that were barely paying half that. Crazy. |
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Not sure if you were directing the question at me, but I was thinking around $50K~ish which is what some of these charter places pay. I looked at some regionals that were barely paying half that. Crazy. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Just curious...what kind of salary expectations are we talking about? Wasn't sure if the $150k was a bit sarcastic or that was what they were actually trying to negotiate. I would think that like most other markets that wages would follow fairly loosely a law of supply and demand, but that doesn't necessarily apply in a union environment. Not sure if you were directing the question at me, but I was thinking around $50K~ish which is what some of these charter places pay. I looked at some regionals that were barely paying half that. Crazy. Was just a general question, and thanks for answering. If it was in the $150k range I was seriously thinking of a career path change! |
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Just curious...what kind of salary expectations are we talking about? Wasn't sure if the $150k was a bit sarcastic or that was what they were actually trying to negotiate. I would think that like most other markets that wages would follow fairly loosely a law of supply and demand, but that doesn't necessarily apply in a union environment. View Quote Even more so in an airline environment. I think F224 did some union work, so he can probably speak to the Railway Labor Act as well as anyone. Suffice it to say the RLA is a labor law beast unto itself, part of which compels labor at submarket rates by the company for extended periods, as has happened to the Republic guys. |
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The only reason pay rates at the regionals are so low is that the pilots are willing to accept it. Just look at what PSA did, and they weren't under the threat of bankruptcy.. agreed to take a pay cut in exchange for aircraft. And SkyWest has hired nearly a 1000 pilots in the last two years while the pay was at $24 an hour. It recently went to $30, but they've had no problem hiring 80 a month for $22,000 a year.
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The only reason pay rates at the regionals are so low is that the pilots are willing to accept it. Just look at what PSA did, and they weren't under the threat of bankruptcy.. agreed to take a pay cut in exchange for aircraft. And SkyWest has hired nearly a 1000 pilots in the last two years while the pay was at $24 an hour. It recently went to $30, but they've had no problem hiring 80 a month for $22,000 a year. View Quote PSA did that for CRJs in 2002, while PDT and ALG were trying to preserve their contracts. |
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As a former member of the Congregation of the Reverend Bedford, I'm neither shocked nor surprised. The regionals are going to need to adapt or die. Perhaps adapt and die. No fucks will be given either way. View Quote They can not adapt. The ONLY reason why majors use them is because their labor costs are so low. Yet that is the reason why they can not hire pilots. They're dead Jim, they just don't know it yet. |
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