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Posted: 5/27/2015 2:45:04 PM EDT
[#1]
The brand new A400M that recently crashed in Spain apparently experienced simultaneous fsilure of three of the four engines. The cause is allegedly a software "glitch". Maybe there's a systemic problem with Airbus/RR software.
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Posted: 5/27/2015 3:54:46 PM EDT
[#2]
"a jet like the A330 loses an engine, it's still certified to fly for as long as four hours on the remaining engine. Obviously, when a jet loses both engines, the situation is much more serious. However, pilots are trained to handle it. " Yeah, but I bet the pucker factor is REALLY HIGH. What I want to know is how anyone would have the confidence to take off again a few hours later and fly it back WITH passengers. What did the entry in the Maintenance log say? "Could not identify cause or malfunction. Cleared for service. Report any reoccurrence." 
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Posted: 5/27/2015 4:47:36 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"a jet like the A330 loses an engine, it's still certified to fly for as long as four hours on the remaining engine. Obviously, when a jet loses both engines, the situation is much more serious. However, pilots are trained to handle it. " Yeah, but I bet the pucker factor is REALLY HIGH. What I want to know is how anyone would have the confidence to take off again a few hours later and fly it back WITH passengers. What did the entry in the Maintenance log say? "Could not identify cause or malfunction. Cleared for service. Report any reoccurrence." "Ops checked OK, Could not duplicate." |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 5:56:44 PM EDT
[#4]
ETOPS: Stands for "extended two engine operations"
Interpreted by many as "engines turn or people swim" How much you want to bet that it was engine icing related and that the crew did not have the anti-ice on while circumventing high altitude thunderstorm clouds? |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 7:31:19 PM EDT
[#5]
A great point was brought up in another thread. Who in their right fucking mind, upon engine relight, would continue on for hours? I would have PL'd at the nearest suitable airfield.
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Posted: 5/27/2015 7:34:35 PM EDT
[#6]
Holy crap!
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Posted: 5/27/2015 7:41:06 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ETOPS: Stands for "extended two engine operations" Interpreted by many as "engines turn or people swim" How much you want to bet that it was engine icing related and that the crew did not have the anti-ice on while circumventing high altitude thunderstorm clouds? Good bet. I wonder if they have some fuel system icing issues like was experienced in the 777. |
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Posted: 5/27/2015 7:43:12 PM EDT
[#8]
Looked that the flight radar trace and looks like the crew did a good job descending and maintaining airspeed so they had the ability to maneuver if need be.
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Posted: 5/27/2015 8:06:32 PM EDT
[#9]
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Posted: 5/28/2015 7:38:56 AM EDT
[#10]
While flying through bad weather did the crew have both igniters on? Both engines flamed out? Interesting event for sure for both crew and passengers as the A330 is not a small aircraft.
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Posted: 5/28/2015 8:09:12 AM EDT
[#11]
The three loudest sounds:
A bang when you expect a click A click when you expect a bang Both engines quit burning |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 8:15:04 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A great point was brought up in another thread. Who in their right fucking mind, upon engine relight, would continue on for hours? I would have PL'd at the nearest suitable airfield. Lol. Let's go from driftdown procedures back to normal ops. No biggie guys. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 1:43:37 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol. Let's go from driftdown procedures back to normal ops. No biggie guys. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A great point was brought up in another thread. Who in their right fucking mind, upon engine relight, would continue on for hours? I would have PL'd at the nearest suitable airfield. Lol. Let's go from driftdown procedures back to normal ops. No biggie guys. When you have an engine fail in flight on an aircraft with three or fewer engines, you must divert to the nearest suitable airport. For flight planning purposes, the route you fly must remain within four hours of the nearest suitable airport. The ability to continue for four hours does not relive you of the requirement to divert. Unlikely it's a fuel icing issue, the flight was not at cruise altitude long enough to have the fuel super cooled to it's freezing level. That usually takes 10-14 hours at sub -40C temps and requires fuel that was pretty cool at the start of the flight already, not summer time fuel. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 2:44:17 PM EDT
[#14]
Glad I do not have any Airbus stock.
Vince |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 2:54:52 PM EDT
[#15]
I got to the word "Singapore" in the Subject line and instantly thought to myself....
"Yeah.. That figures." 
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Posted: 5/28/2015 6:08:34 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Ops checked OK, Could not duplicate." Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
"a jet like the A330 loses an engine, it's still certified to fly for as long as four hours on the remaining engine. Obviously, when a jet loses both engines, the situation is much more serious. However, pilots are trained to handle it. " Yeah, but I bet the pucker factor is REALLY HIGH. What I want to know is how anyone would have the confidence to take off again a few hours later and fly it back WITH passengers. What did the entry in the Maintenance log say? "Could not identify cause or malfunction. Cleared for service. Report any reoccurrence." "Ops checked OK, Could not duplicate." Discrepancy #1: lt and rt engines missing Corrective action : lt and Rt engines found under respective wings after brief search. No defects noted at this time.
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Posted: 5/28/2015 6:50:11 PM EDT
[#17]
Oil Plugs fell out?
Eastern Air Lines Flight 855 was an air incident near Miami, Florida on May 5, 1983. En route from Miami International Airport to Nassau International Airport, a Lockheed L-1011 TriStar, registration N334EA, experienced the loss of all three engines. The flight crew succeeded in restarting one engine in time to safely land the aircraft at Miami International Airport. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 9:10:33 PM EDT
[#18]
They dropped around 30,000 feet after losing BOTH engines, got them to relight, AND THEN CONTINUED WITH THE FLIGHT AS NORMAL?!
I guess the stereotype about Asian pilots being button pushers is a lot closer to the truth than I though.
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Posted: 5/28/2015 9:42:58 PM EDT
[#19]
This applies to the EAL Tristar incident in Fla.
If memory serves, the crew shut down the engines shortly after takeoff after losing oil pressure in each of the three engines. The shutdowns were not all at once. The oil tank caps were left loose or off completely (maybe there was o-ring missing) after maintence action. After realizing the predicament they were in, the crew initiated restart of the engines and got one restarted before making a successful safe landing. |
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Posted: 5/28/2015 10:44:58 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They dropped around 30,000 feet after losing BOTH engines, got them to relight, AND THEN CONTINUED WITH THE FLIGHT AS NORMAL?!
I guess the stereotype about Asian pilots being button pushers is a lot closer to the truth than I though. I thought the descent was part of the procedure. 
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Posted: 5/28/2015 10:50:12 PM EDT
[#21]
Granted, I used to work for P&W, but I never liked AB or RR.
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Posted: 5/29/2015 8:34:43 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This applies to the EAL Tristar incident in Fla. If memory serves, the crew shut down the engines shortly after takeoff after losing oil pressure in each of the three engines. The shutdowns were not all at once. The oil tank caps were left loose or off completely (maybe there was o-ring missing) after maintence action. After realizing the predicament they were in, the crew initiated restart of the engines and got one restarted before making a successful safe landing. Maintenance had forgotten to install O rings in the chip detectors. |
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Posted: 5/29/2015 12:12:26 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maintenance had forgotten to install O rings in the chip detectors. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This applies to the EAL Tristar incident in Fla. If memory serves, the crew shut down the engines shortly after takeoff after losing oil pressure in each of the three engines. The shutdowns were not all at once. The oil tank caps were left loose or off completely (maybe there was o-ring missing) after maintence action. After realizing the predicament they were in, the crew initiated restart of the engines and got one restarted before making a successful safe landing. Maintenance had forgotten to install O rings in the chip detectors. You're right. I stand corrected. At least I got the o-ring part right. |
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Posted: 5/29/2015 5:42:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought the descent was part of the procedure. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They dropped around 30,000 feet after losing BOTH engines, got them to relight, AND THEN CONTINUED WITH THE FLIGHT AS NORMAL?! I guess the stereotype about Asian pilots being button pushers is a lot closer to the truth than I though. I thought the descent was part of the procedure. It generally is. Because you can't really keep flying straight and level without any propulsion. I'm curious if they ended up deploying whatever their version of a ram air turbine is. |
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Posted: 5/29/2015 8:07:59 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It generally is. Because you can't really keep flying straight and level without any propulsion. I'm curious if they ended up deploying whatever their version of a ram air turbine is. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
They dropped around 30,000 feet after losing BOTH engines, got them to relight, AND THEN CONTINUED WITH THE FLIGHT AS NORMAL?!
I guess the stereotype about Asian pilots being button pushers is a lot closer to the truth than I though. I thought the descent was part of the procedure. It generally is. Because you can't really keep flying straight and level without any propulsion. I'm curious if they ended up deploying whatever their version of a ram air turbine is. On Boeing aircraft it would have been automatic due to no engines and IRS input to include air/ground input as well. |
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Posted: 5/29/2015 9:38:04 PM EDT
[#26]
No APU?
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Posted: 5/29/2015 9:43:39 PM EDT
[#27]
Many APU's have altitude limits for start and operation.
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Posted: 5/29/2015 10:49:00 PM EDT
[#28]
If you can't find the cause, it needs to be scrapped.
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Posted: 5/29/2015 11:08:46 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A great point was brought up in another thread. Who in their right fucking mind, upon engine relight, would continue on for hours? I would have PL'd at the nearest suitable airfield. Ops/MX control told them where to go based on how much it was going to cost to get MX and parts. 
Seriously. Before I went corporate I contracted with a few 121 regionals. You'd be amazed how far 1900D's and CRJ's can fly with shattered windshields. (Not just cracked, I mean full on loss of cabin pressure shattered). |
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Posted: 5/30/2015 12:56:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Many APU's have altitude limits for start and operation. Also depending on how their emergency power is configured, they may not have wanted to start the APU without any active generators. If you kill the battery and still can't get anything online, you are now royally screwed. |
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Posted: 5/30/2015 1:31:25 PM EDT
[#31]
I would bet that aircraft has a ram air turbine driven generator that dropped out almost instantly at the dual flameout.
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Posted: 5/30/2015 1:38:12 PM EDT
[#32]
Yea, its a brand new airliner. I figured it has all kinds of automation for electrical failure. RAT, APU, etc.
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Posted: 5/31/2015 7:48:08 PM EDT
[#33]
Just based on the initial article it sure sounds like a textbook case of "ice crystal icing".
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Posted: 6/3/2015 5:12:12 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought the descent was part of the procedure. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
They dropped around 30,000 feet after losing BOTH engines, got them to relight, AND THEN CONTINUED WITH THE FLIGHT AS NORMAL?!
I guess the stereotype about Asian pilots being button pushers is a lot closer to the truth than I though. I thought the descent was part of the procedure. What I'm saying is that if I had both engines quit on me, I'd want to put it down ASAP and find out why, not continue on my merry way for another few hours and risk it happening again. |
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Posted: 6/4/2015 12:48:05 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What I'm saying is that if I had both engines quit on me, I'd want to put it down ASAP and find out why, not continue on my merry way for another few hours and risk it happening again. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
They dropped around 30,000 feet after losing BOTH engines, got them to relight, AND THEN CONTINUED WITH THE FLIGHT AS NORMAL?!
I guess the stereotype about Asian pilots being button pushers is a lot closer to the truth than I though. I thought the descent was part of the procedure. What I'm saying is that if I had both engines quit on me, I'd want to put it down ASAP and find out why, not continue on my merry way for another few hours and risk it happening again. I picture the captain looking over at the FO and saying, "Hell, we should just keep going. You know what the odds are of losing both engines TWICE in the same flight must be?" |
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Posted: 6/8/2015 12:04:12 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just based on the initial article it sure sounds like a textbook case of "ice crystal icing". I came here to post this. Some sensor got iced up and the engines went into limp mode. |
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Posted: 6/8/2015 8:59:44 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I came here to post this. Some sensor got iced up and the engines went into limp mode. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just based on the initial article it sure sounds like a textbook case of "ice crystal icing". I came here to post this. Some sensor got iced up and the engines went into limp mode. Yea probably the mass air flow or O2 sensor.......... |
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Posted: 6/9/2015 1:31:00 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I came here to post this. Some sensor got iced up and the engines went into limp mode. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Just based on the initial article it sure sounds like a textbook case of "ice crystal icing". I came here to post this. Some sensor got iced up and the engines went into limp mode. That's regular everyday icing you're thinking of. It virtually never happens at high altitude because any visible moisture is already frozen hard and won't accrete to the aircraft. Ice Crystal Icing is a relatively newly discovered and slightly less understood phenomena. It happens at very high altitude in pretty specific atmospheric conditions. It won't typically accrete to the aircraft skin or protrusions and if it does would only register as trace deposits. But what it will do is accrete to the inside walls of the engine. It'll build up until it sheds and that will commonly flame the engine out without damaging it. In the known cases of it occurring a relight has always been successful though a loss of altitude is inescapable if you don't have continuous ignition on for an instant relight. ICI is a bit of a hot topic these days with Boeing and Airbus both fielding research teams into the subject. |
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Posted: 6/9/2015 9:27:08 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maintenance had forgotten to install O rings in the chip detectors. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This applies to the EAL Tristar incident in Fla. If memory serves, the crew shut down the engines shortly after takeoff after losing oil pressure in each of the three engines. The shutdowns were not all at once. The oil tank caps were left loose or off completely (maybe there was o-ring missing) after maintence action. After realizing the predicament they were in, the crew initiated restart of the engines and got one restarted before making a successful safe landing. Maintenance had forgotten to install O rings in the chip detectors. I have personal knowledge of a 737-200 that lost oil pressure on both engines at the same time on climb out going through 1500'. The pilot declared emergency, did a 180 and landed downwind. I have flown a 737-300 that once belonged to TACA that had a dual engine flameout and deadstick landing off airport. Take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPn8G7enbF4 |
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