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Posted: 8/30/2014 8:41:13 PM EDT
[#1]
Do you have access to conventional auto fuel without alcohol?
That is what is required for the STC. If you can get it your O200 will do fine on it. |
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Posted: 8/30/2014 9:04:10 PM EDT
[#2]
I had one of the first STC's for my C-182.
It flew great on mogas, and started much better when it was cold. This was back in the day before this bullshit alcohol thing started. As posted above, the STC is for straight mogas, no ethanol. Which is getting harder and harder to find. I had a 55 gal. drum in the back of my E-150 ford van. Pull into a gas station, fill the drum, and then back up to my plane, and pump it in. took about 15 mins to hand-pump 55 gals. and then I would take a $100 bill out of one pocket and put it in the other. I miss those days.  |
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Posted: 8/30/2014 9:09:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Thanks for the replies. I have heard reasons not to use auto fuel, but not backed by anything solid.
Finding ethanol-free fuel is another story. |
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Posted: 8/30/2014 9:18:41 PM EDT
[#4]
It used to be worth it, now, I'm not so sure it's worth the hassle unless you find a source and can truck in at least 500 gal.
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Posted: 8/30/2014 9:48:49 PM EDT
[#5]
We used to have auto-gas STC's on our R-22's and R44. Worked great. The spark plugs lasted longer, no valve sticking problems, oil analysis always came back great, etc.
On the non-injected R-44 (O-540-F1B5), you had to run at least 25% 100LL in hot weather or it would have problems. And, yes, everything about the ethanol was correct--you CANNOT use it. In Missouri, 93 premium didn't have ethanol until about 2003. When they added it, we had to special order a few thousand gallons at a time blended without it. One other thing--100LL doesn't get stale, it can sit in your airplane for many months without an issue. Auto gas isn't like that. So don't order a 1000 gallons, or let it sit in your airplane for 6 months and then go fly. We burned through 1000 gallons in few weeks, so no issues and it paid for itself quick. |
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Posted: 8/30/2014 10:15:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We used to have auto-gas STC's on our R-22's and R44. Worked great. The spark plugs lasted longer, no valve sticking problems, oil analysis always came back great, etc. On the non-injected R-44 (O-540-F1B5), you had to run at least 25% 100LL in hot weather or it would have problems. And, yes, everything about the ethanol was correct--you CANNOT use it. In Missouri, 93 premium didn't have ethanol until about 2003. When they added it, we had to special order a few thousand gallons at a time blended without it. One other thing--100LL doesn't get stale, it can sit in your airplane for many months without an issue. Auto gas isn't like that. So don't order a 1000 gallons, or let it sit in your airplane for 6 months and then go fly. We burned through 1000 gallons in few weeks, so no issues and it paid for itself quick. That is a very good point that I had previously overlooked. Thanks. |
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Posted: 8/31/2014 6:59:22 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We used to have auto-gas STC's on our R-22's and R44. Worked great. The spark plugs lasted longer, no valve sticking problems, oil analysis always came back great, etc. On the non-injected R-44 (O-540-F1B5), you had to run at least 25% 100LL in hot weather or it would have problems. And, yes, everything about the ethanol was correct--you CANNOT use it. In Missouri, 93 premium didn't have ethanol until about 2003. When they added it, we had to special order a few thousand gallons at a time blended without it. One other thing--100LL doesn't get stale, it can sit in your airplane for many months without an issue. Auto gas isn't like that. So don't order a 1000 gallons, or let it sit in your airplane for 6 months and then go fly. We burned through 1000 gallons in few weeks, so no issues and it paid for itself quick. Also, I should add we were operating operating less than 1000 MSL, and on derated engines. O-360 derated to 131hp. I forget what the O-540 was derated to. I have no idea what it would be like at altitude or with something running full bore. |
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Posted: 8/31/2014 7:18:44 PM EDT
[#8]
There is a local airport that sells alcohol free mogas at about $4.00/gallon. I have the STC, and have considered it. I talked to Emerson Stewart, who runs Red Stewart airfield about it. He said that they tried it for a while in their planes, but gave it up because the valve problems they were having ate up any savings the may have been. I value his word. I considered mixing it with 100LL as suggested by many. 100LL has something like 10 times the lead as the avgas my A-65 first started burning. It would only save me about $5/hr, so I decided to stick with 100LL. Much better QC without the stink of mogas. Love the smell of lead burning.
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Posted: 8/31/2014 7:57:27 PM EDT
[#9]
If you have a 150 or 165hp Franklin (Stinson 108's) engine, then no ethanol 87 octane is the only way to go. But it has a very short shelf life.
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Posted: 8/31/2014 9:38:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Ran it in my Cherokee. Was a damn good thing too because I flew the piss out of it to time build. Bought a little junker Toyota and threw two 50-gal drums in the bed. Had no issues related to it, though it did get to be more of a pain to find ethanol free fuel. When I sold the Cherokee and bought my Lance here was only one station left in town that was ethanol free.
ETA: I ran it in 10-110 degree weather at an airport less than 1000 MSL and with an aftermarket four-probe EGT/CHT gauge. |
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Posted: 8/31/2014 10:52:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is a local airport that sells alcohol free mogas at about $4.00/gallon. I have the STC, and have considered it. I talked to Emerson Stewart, who runs Red Stewart airfield about it. He said that they tried it for a while in their planes, but gave it up because the valve problems they were having ate up any savings the may have been. I value his word. I considered mixing it with 100LL as suggested by many. 100LL has something like 10 times the lead as the avgas my A-65 first started burning. It would only save me about $5/hr, so I decided to stick with 100LL. Much better QC without the stink of mogas. Love the smell of lead burning. I wonder what kind of valve problems they were having.....because it helped ours. We would ream the valves once around a few hundred hours and then they were good. Were they having problems with the valve seats (since the lead cushions that)? As long as you ran SOME 100LL it was more than enough lead. We usually ran about a 1:4 mix of avgas to mogas just to be safe.......same idea as running JetA in a diesel |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 9:48:11 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wonder what kind of valve problems they were having.....because it helped ours. We would ream the valves once around a few hundred hours and then they were good. Were they having problems with the valve seats (since the lead cushions that)? As long as you ran SOME 100LL it was more than enough lead. We usually ran about a 1:4 mix of avgas to mogas just to be safe.......same idea as running JetA in a diesel Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There is a local airport that sells alcohol free mogas at about $4.00/gallon. I have the STC, and have considered it. I talked to Emerson Stewart, who runs Red Stewart airfield about it. He said that they tried it for a while in their planes, but gave it up because the valve problems they were having ate up any savings the may have been. I value his word. I considered mixing it with 100LL as suggested by many. 100LL has something like 10 times the lead as the avgas my A-65 first started burning. It would only save me about $5/hr, so I decided to stick with 100LL. Much better QC without the stink of mogas. Love the smell of lead burning. I wonder what kind of valve problems they were having.....because it helped ours. We would ream the valves once around a few hundred hours and then they were good. Were they having problems with the valve seats (since the lead cushions that)? As long as you ran SOME 100LL it was more than enough lead. We usually ran about a 1:4 mix of avgas to mogas just to be safe.......same idea as running JetA in a diesel Yep, if you run SOME 100LL, you should be fine. I''m pretty sure they were running straight mogas, and valves were sticking. Their planes are rentals, and gas is self-serve, so unless it was premixed in th tank, it would have been impractical to run a mix. I would have no problem running a mix in my plane, and I may at some point. 4:1 would make it more attractive, and would actually be closer to the right amount of lead. That would save me about $7.50 / hr. I have a drum and 6 jerry cans that I haul gas in. Two of the can's have alcohol-free mogas in them for my generator and mower. Maybe I'll give it a try, and see if the stench is tolerable. One more note... my neighbor has a Stearman that has a clear tube for a fuel quantity indicator. Either the dye or the additives in mogas turn it yellow and cloudy to the point of having to replace it. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 1:28:39 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep, if you run SOME 100LL, you should be fine. I''m pretty sure they were running straight mogas, and valves were sticking. Their planes are rentals, and gas is self-serve, so unless it was premixed in th tank, it would have been impractical to run a mix. I would have no problem running a mix in my plane, and I may at some point. 4:1 would make it more attractive, and would actually be closer to the right amount of lead. That would save me about $7.50 / hr. I have a drum and 6 jerry cans that I haul gas in. Two of the can's have alcohol-free mogas in them for my generator and mower. Maybe I'll give it a try, and see if the stench is tolerable. One more note... my neighbor has a Stearman that has a clear tube for a fuel quantity indicator. Either the dye or the additives in mogas turn it yellow and cloudy to the point of having to replace it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is a local airport that sells alcohol free mogas at about $4.00/gallon. I have the STC, and have considered it. I talked to Emerson Stewart, who runs Red Stewart airfield about it. He said that they tried it for a while in their planes, but gave it up because the valve problems they were having ate up any savings the may have been. I value his word. I considered mixing it with 100LL as suggested by many. 100LL has something like 10 times the lead as the avgas my A-65 first started burning. It would only save me about $5/hr, so I decided to stick with 100LL. Much better QC without the stink of mogas. Love the smell of lead burning. I wonder what kind of valve problems they were having.....because it helped ours. We would ream the valves once around a few hundred hours and then they were good. Were they having problems with the valve seats (since the lead cushions that)? As long as you ran SOME 100LL it was more than enough lead. We usually ran about a 1:4 mix of avgas to mogas just to be safe.......same idea as running JetA in a diesel Yep, if you run SOME 100LL, you should be fine. I''m pretty sure they were running straight mogas, and valves were sticking. Their planes are rentals, and gas is self-serve, so unless it was premixed in th tank, it would have been impractical to run a mix. I would have no problem running a mix in my plane, and I may at some point. 4:1 would make it more attractive, and would actually be closer to the right amount of lead. That would save me about $7.50 / hr. I have a drum and 6 jerry cans that I haul gas in. Two of the can's have alcohol-free mogas in them for my generator and mower. Maybe I'll give it a try, and see if the stench is tolerable. One more note... my neighbor has a Stearman that has a clear tube for a fuel quantity indicator. Either the dye or the additives in mogas turn it yellow and cloudy to the point of having to replace it. That sounds like he may have some ethanol in his gas. It tends to eat plastics and the like. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 2:58:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That sounds like he may have some ethanol in his gas. It tends to eat plastics and the like. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yep, if you run SOME 100LL, you should be fine. I''m pretty sure they were running straight mogas, and valves were sticking. Their planes are rentals, and gas is self-serve, so unless it was premixed in th tank, it would have been impractical to run a mix. I would have no problem running a mix in my plane, and I may at some point. 4:1 would make it more attractive, and would actually be closer to the right amount of lead. That would save me about $7.50 / hr. I have a drum and 6 jerry cans that I haul gas in. Two of the can's have alcohol-free mogas in them for my generator and mower. Maybe I'll give it a try, and see if the stench is tolerable. One more note... my neighbor has a Stearman that has a clear tube for a fuel quantity indicator. Either the dye or the additives in mogas turn it yellow and cloudy to the point of having to replace it. That sounds like he may have some ethanol in his gas. It tends to eat plastics and the like. He believed it to be alcohol-free, but maybe. I believe that any gas you get, other than 100LL has extra additives in it that leave a residue. It stains the floor if you spill it, and has a stink that wont wash off if you get it on your hands. 100LL won't leave a smell on your hands at all. They were bitching at the shop where I had my annual done, because someone's plane had leaked mogas on the floor overnight, and they couldn't get rid of the smell. I know that the additive packages for the individual retailers are put in at the distributor, but there must be some stuff that goes into all of it. Not having alcohol doesn't make it pure gasoline. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 3:04:32 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep, if you run SOME 100LL, you should be fine. I''m pretty sure they were running straight mogas, and valves were sticking. Their planes are rentals, and gas is self-serve, so unless it was premixed in th tank, it would have been impractical to run a mix. One more note... my neighbor has a Stearman that has a clear tube for a fuel quantity indicator. Either the dye or the additives in mogas turn it yellow and cloudy to the point of having to replace it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is a local airport that sells alcohol free mogas at about $4.00/gallon. I have the STC, and have considered it. I talked to Emerson Stewart, who runs Red Stewart airfield about it. He said that they tried it for a while in their planes, but gave it up because the valve problems they were having ate up any savings the may have been. I value his word. I considered mixing it with 100LL as suggested by many. 100LL has something like 10 times the lead as the avgas my A-65 first started burning. It would only save me about $5/hr, so I decided to stick with 100LL. Much better QC without the stink of mogas. Love the smell of lead burning. I wonder what kind of valve problems they were having.....because it helped ours. We would ream the valves once around a few hundred hours and then they were good. Were they having problems with the valve seats (since the lead cushions that)? As long as you ran SOME 100LL it was more than enough lead. We usually ran about a 1:4 mix of avgas to mogas just to be safe.......same idea as running JetA in a diesel Yep, if you run SOME 100LL, you should be fine. I''m pretty sure they were running straight mogas, and valves were sticking. Their planes are rentals, and gas is self-serve, so unless it was premixed in th tank, it would have been impractical to run a mix. One more note... my neighbor has a Stearman that has a clear tube for a fuel quantity indicator. Either the dye or the additives in mogas turn it yellow and cloudy to the point of having to replace it. I think it was the other way around.....the valves stick because of all the lead build up around the stems. That's what that TCP and Avblend stuff is for--helps scavenge the lead. The auto gas solved our valve sticking problems, but we did have problems with some exhaust valve faces and seats. Those needed the lead to cushion and seal. The lack of lead could caused pitting and eventually burned them up. This was maybe one jug every 2000 hrs. But we averaged that on straight avgas anyway with stuck valves. We had the same problems with the plastic main tank drains and gascolator drains......the autogas would turn them yellow and brittle. We would have to replace the seals every once in a while too. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 3:15:30 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think it was the other way around.....the valves stick because of all the lead build up around the stems. That's what that TCP and Avblend stuff is for--helps scavenge the lead. The auto gas solved our valve sticking problems, but we did have problems with some exhaust valve faces and seats. Those needed the lead to cushion and seal. The lack of lead could caused pitting and eventually burned them up. This was maybe one jug every 2000 hrs. But we averaged that on straight avgas anyway with stuck valves. We had the same problems with the plastic main tank drains and gascolator drains......the autogas would turn them yellow and brittle. We would have to replace the seals every once in a while too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
There is a local airport that sells alcohol free mogas at about $4.00/gallon. I have the STC, and have considered it. I talked to Emerson Stewart, who runs Red Stewart airfield about it. He said that they tried it for a while in their planes, but gave it up because the valve problems they were having ate up any savings the may have been. I value his word. I considered mixing it with 100LL as suggested by many. 100LL has something like 10 times the lead as the avgas my A-65 first started burning. It would only save me about $5/hr, so I decided to stick with 100LL. Much better QC without the stink of mogas. Love the smell of lead burning. I wonder what kind of valve problems they were having.....because it helped ours. We would ream the valves once around a few hundred hours and then they were good. Were they having problems with the valve seats (since the lead cushions that)? As long as you ran SOME 100LL it was more than enough lead. We usually ran about a 1:4 mix of avgas to mogas just to be safe.......same idea as running JetA in a diesel Yep, if you run SOME 100LL, you should be fine. I''m pretty sure they were running straight mogas, and valves were sticking. Their planes are rentals, and gas is self-serve, so unless it was premixed in th tank, it would have been impractical to run a mix. One more note... my neighbor has a Stearman that has a clear tube for a fuel quantity indicator. Either the dye or the additives in mogas turn it yellow and cloudy to the point of having to replace it. I think it was the other way around.....the valves stick because of all the lead build up around the stems. That's what that TCP and Avblend stuff is for--helps scavenge the lead. The auto gas solved our valve sticking problems, but we did have problems with some exhaust valve faces and seats. Those needed the lead to cushion and seal. The lack of lead could caused pitting and eventually burned them up. This was maybe one jug every 2000 hrs. But we averaged that on straight avgas anyway with stuck valves. We had the same problems with the plastic main tank drains and gascolator drains......the autogas would turn them yellow and brittle. We would have to replace the seals every once in a while too. No dispute. He said "valve problems", and I made an assumption. I run Marvel Mystery Oil in my gas, and have never had any valve trouble, or a fouled plug, for that matter. Never seen any purple elephants, either, so I know it does do some good. 
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Posted: 9/1/2014 3:38:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Last TEO I did on a 172 maybe 12 years ago had an STC for MOGAS. It was a sight cleaner than others I've seen that ran 100LL AVGAS.
Bottom line is the lead residue lubes the top end, BUT, it's dirty shit. Mogas will probably cost you more for an engine overhaul due to more wear. MAYBE. Opinions on it are a dime a dozen. Your best bet is to research the shit out of it (especially your a/c) and see if you would benefit from it. I recommend you take the advice of others in this thread and mix it leaded fuel. YMMV. |
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Posted: 9/1/2014 9:31:11 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mogas will probably cost you more for an engine overhaul due to more wear. MAYBE. Yeah that's what we figured. But over the course of 2200 hrs, we saved upwards of $20,000 burning if we only did a 50/50 mixture. $20K was plenty for any extra for parts on the overhaul--but we never kept them to overhaul anyway. |
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Posted: 9/3/2014 9:17:43 AM EDT
[#19]
If you run the numbers on fuel costs over the life of an aircraft engine it is surprising.
My Beech 18: 1500 TBO X 2 20 gal/hr X 2 =40 gal/hr 1500 X 40 = 60,000 gal 60,000 X $5.00 = $300,000 avgas 60,000 X $3.50 = $210,000 mogas savings $90,000 engine exchange $38,000 X 2 = $72,000 engine outright $49,000 X 2 = $98,000 |
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Posted: 9/3/2014 9:28:52 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you run the numbers on fuel costs over the life of an aircraft engine it is surprising. My Beech 18: 1500 TBO X 2 20 gal/hr X 2 =40 gal/hr 1500 X 40 = 60,000 gal 60,000 X $5.00 = $300,000 avgas 60,000 X $3.50 = $210,000 mogas savings $90,000 engine exchange $38,000 X 2 = $72,000 engine outright $49,000 X 2 = $98,000 That's amazing. And you're getting 100LL for a lot lower than the guys around here. It's like $7/gal at our airport when I asked a line guy the other day--I about fell over. |
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Posted: 9/3/2014 9:58:48 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's amazing. And you're getting 100LL for a lot lower than the guys around here. It's like $7/gal at our airport when I asked a line guy the other day--I about fell over. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If you run the numbers on fuel costs over the life of an aircraft engine it is surprising. My Beech 18: 1500 TBO X 2 20 gal/hr X 2 =40 gal/hr 1500 X 40 = 60,000 gal 60,000 X $5.00 = $300,000 avgas 60,000 X $3.50 = $210,000 mogas savings $90,000 engine exchange $38,000 X 2 = $72,000 engine outright $49,000 X 2 = $98,000 That's amazing. And you're getting 100LL for a lot lower than the guys around here. It's like $7/gal at our airport when I asked a line guy the other day--I about fell over. 40 ga/hr would certainly change the equation for me. 
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Posted: 9/3/2014 10:09:26 AM EDT
[#22]
I wish I could run Mogas, but there's no STC for the airframe. Plenty for similar planes with the same engine, but there aren't enough Be23s to warrant pursuing an STC. On the other hand, my life has changed since I started using TCP in the fuel. Much cleaner plugs.
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Posted: 9/3/2014 3:47:47 PM EDT
[#23]
My Cherokee has the STC for it but I can't find any mogas without the alcohol around me. On a side note... anyone hear if the no lead avfuel they are suppost to be testing is looking like it will pass all the testing and be available soon?
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Posted: 9/3/2014 6:27:51 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My Cherokee has the STC for it but I can't find any mogas without the alcohol around me. On a side note... anyone hear if the no lead avfuel they are suppost to be testing is looking like it will pass all the testing and be available soon? I'm not in any hurry for that. It will be expensive.
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Posted: 9/4/2014 10:35:09 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not in any hurry for that. It will be expensive. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My Cherokee has the STC for it but I can't find any mogas without the alcohol around me. On a side note... anyone hear if the no lead avfuel they are suppost to be testing is looking like it will pass all the testing and be available soon? I'm not in any hurry for that. It will be expensive. No shit. Hello $10/gal! 
Anything to keep the plebes out of the air. 
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Posted: 9/7/2014 1:58:45 PM EDT
[#26]
I've had two airplanes with auto fuel STC's, both with 80 octane engines, and 100LL was strictly the last choice if 80 octane or auto fuel was not available on the field. I also used Marvel Mystery oil in the engine crankcase of the second airplane to help with top end lubrication after a stuck valve, which naturally occurred away from home.
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Posted: 9/27/2014 10:19:39 PM EDT
[#27]
Don't ignore the warnings regarding "Seasonal Changeover" I watched a PA28-235 make a take-off run on a warm spring day with winter fuel and the fuel pumps vaporlocked upon rotation. He landed, got it restarted, taxied back and did it again! Got to love cheap bastards.
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Posted: 9/27/2014 10:49:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't ignore the warnings regarding "Seasonal Changeover" I watched a PA28-235 make a take-off run on a warm spring day with winter fuel and the fuel pumps vaporlocked upon rotation. He landed, got it restarted, taxied back and did it again! Got to love cheap bastards. Sounds like he was using mogas containing alcohol which does not comply with the STC. Conventional gasoline doesn't contain seasonal additives or ethanol. It is getting difficult to find. In many/most areas it is not available. |
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Posted: 9/28/2014 9:55:04 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds like he was using mogas containing alcohol which does not comply with the STC. Conventional gasoline doesn't contain seasonal additives or ethanol. It is getting difficult to find. In many/most areas it is not available. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Don't ignore the warnings regarding "Seasonal Changeover" I watched a PA28-235 make a take-off run on a warm spring day with winter fuel and the fuel pumps vaporlocked upon rotation. He landed, got it restarted, taxied back and did it again! Got to love cheap bastards. Sounds like he was using mogas containing alcohol which does not comply with the STC. Conventional gasoline doesn't contain seasonal additives or ethanol. It is getting difficult to find. In many/most areas it is not available. No, he's right......that is mentioned in the STC. "Winter blends" of MOGAS contain more butane to get it to evaporate in the lower temps. Summer blends have much less to keep it from vapor locking. It's an emissions thing. It could have been stale MOGAS and/or had ethanol too.....who knows how long it sat. Either way, running 50/50 with AVGAS you'll still save a ton of money and it will keep you safe. Same goes for running waste JetA in a diesel truck without adding oil. |
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