User Panel
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Posted: 3/21/2017 1:15:29 PM EDT
[#1]
through two joists The bend radius of the cable will be a PITA. I had to use a run of copper cable. A pair of steel pipes (gas and water) one inch apart. The copper cable was .9 inches in diameter. Aluminum was over 1.3 inches. Not worth trying to move either pipe. |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 1:32:16 PM EDT
[#2]
Ductwork is slip-and-drive construction - very easy to disassemble. I'd pull it just to have access to the back of the panel. Then out the bottom with EMT and pull fittings.
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Posted: 3/21/2017 4:41:16 PM EDT
[#3]
Cool, thanks for the advice guys.
I am a little fuzzy on the running boards though. Not sure I have seen that before. Would that be like nailing a board to the bottom of the joists and then affixing the cable to that board? |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 5:17:34 PM EDT
[#4]
You could avoid adding the new panel by freeing up some space with the newer double breakers that fit one slot.
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Posted: 3/21/2017 7:05:47 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You could avoid adding the new panel by freeing up some space with the newer double breakers that fit one slot. The board is pretty full. I found a bundle of three wires coming in from the north of the house that would be easy to move to the new panel. They also come in the bottom of the existing panel so they should be easy to identify and remove. In this pic the circle shows where they wires enter the box. The three checked breakers are what those wires are connected to. I was planning on pulling all three (only three I can access really) and opening two breaker slots on the left and one on the right. That would allow me to shift the remaining breakers on the right up one slot, leaving room for the 100 amp break that would feed the subpanel. The one to the left doesn't need to be moved, but I thought I would just to free up a slot in the panel to be used at a later date. I am planning on installing an 8 slot lug breaker panel. This one. |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 7:18:36 PM EDT
[#6]
You can install a new panel with 40/50/54/60/72 spaces now.
http://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Power-Distribution-Breaker-Boxes/150/N-5yc1vZbm2wZ1z0u05c More options for 200 Ampere but you get the idea. Could not hot link . |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 8:14:39 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cool, thanks for the advice guys. I am a little fuzzy on the running boards though. Not sure I have seen that before. Would that be like nailing a board to the bottom of the joists and then affixing the cable to that board? |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 8:33:35 PM EDT
[#8]
you sure you need a 100 amps in the new panel? the 100 amp breaker is gonna be expensive, it would be a lot cheaper to breaker it at say 60 and move small loads over.
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Posted: 3/21/2017 8:53:17 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can install a new panel with 40/50/54/60/72 spaces now. http://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Power-Distribution-Breaker-Boxes/150/N-5yc1vZbm2wZ1z0u05c More options for 200 Ampere but you get the idea. Could not hot link . |
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Posted: 3/21/2017 9:45:01 PM EDT
[#10]
Post some pics so we can better understand the situation. I bend conduit everyday, I can't imagine how it'd be that hard to pipe it.
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Posted: 3/21/2017 10:46:06 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Post some pics so we can better understand the situation. I bend conduit everyday, I can't imagine how it'd be that hard to pipe it. |
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Posted: 3/22/2017 10:03:49 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you sure you need a 100 amps in the new panel? the 100 amp breaker is gonna be expensive, it would be a lot cheaper to breaker it at say 60 and move small loads over. |
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Posted: 3/22/2017 10:24:44 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like this idea. Get the power company to pull your meter. Change it to one with more spaces. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You can install a new panel with 40/50/54/60/72 spaces now. http://www.homedepot.com/b/Electrical-Power-Distribution-Breaker-Boxes/150/N-5yc1vZbm2wZ1z0u05c More options for 200 Ampere but you get the idea. Could not hot link . The primary reason I don't want to do that is I don't have the skill to get something like that done in a reasonable amount of time.I also cannot justify the cost to hire an electrician when a much cheaper subpanel will solve my issues. Maybe someday I'll be brave enough to try it... |
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Posted: 3/22/2017 10:25:41 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Running boards are small boards nailed on either side of the cable for protection. Like simple furring strips that make a channel that the wire runs along. Although a wire of the gauge you're talking may need thicker than a 1x, but it would also require a pretty significant sized hole through the joists. ETA: And thanks for all the advice guys. This has all been very helpful. |
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Posted: 3/22/2017 11:43:45 AM EDT
[#15]
Why not just upgrade your existing panel. IMHO two panels side by side would be hokey looking. New panels aren't terribly expensive and here's plenty of info for diyers.
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Posted: 3/22/2017 1:16:21 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why not just upgrade your existing panel. IMHO two panels side by side would be hokey looking. New panels aren't terribly expensive and here's plenty of info for diyers. |
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Posted: 3/22/2017 2:49:25 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why not just upgrade your existing panel. IMHO two panels side by side would be hokey looking. New panels aren't terribly expensive and here's plenty of info for diyers. The old limit on breakers in a panel (42) went away a few years ago. You can end up with crowded wiring gutters if you go wild though. You are not likely to go over the fill limit in them but it can be a PITA to work in them. |
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Posted: 3/22/2017 9:49:32 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Click on the links in the OP. It's tight.  I didnt notice the links... Thanks haha. That is a cluster F for sure! It looks like you could still hit that right corner with a pipe tho. Certainly cant make it look any worse than it already does!
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Posted: 3/23/2017 3:16:42 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I didnt notice the links... Thanks haha. That is a cluster F for sure! It looks like you could still hit that right corner with a pipe tho. Certainly cant make it look any worse than it already does!This is a quicky video of how a slip-and-drive connection goes together. To take it apart, you unbend the ears on the drive sleeves, grab one with a vice grip, and pull in line.  Ductmate Industries Inc. Slips and Drives Installation Video ETA: I decided to look again at the pics. I finally figured out why everything in that space is so fucky - the previous owner (or was it you, OP?) installed a gas water heater after the place was built. I shall explain, through the magic of MS Paint.  Attached FileRed Arrow: Original return grill Red Oval: Relocated Return, using the studs as ductwork (I think) Red Shading: Water Heater venting, tied into what looks to be an existing stack for the furnace Blue shading: Vent (God I hope so) piping relocated around the vent. Conclusion: Someone was IuI - Installing under the Influence. Somebody was high when they did that. OP, were it me, I would do the following:
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Posted: 3/23/2017 4:21:41 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Like I said in my first reply, were it my house I'd start by pulling the ductwork. Mostly because I'm a big fat fuck these days, but also because it *really* is not that hard, and the OP would probably spend less time doing that than fiddlefucking around with cable and gutterboards in a tight space. This is a quicky video of how a slip-and-drive connection goes together. To take it apart, you unbend the ears on the drive sleeves, grab one with a vice grip, and pull in line.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF8JZ1t_nm4
ETA: I decided to look again at the pics. I finally figured out why everything in that space is so fucky - the previous owner (or was it you, OP?) installed a gas water heater after the place was built. I shall explain, through the magic of MS Paint. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/173228/Untitled-172243.JPG Red Arrow: Original return grill Red Oval: Relocated Return, using the studs as ductwork (I think) Red Shading: Water Heater venting, tied into what looks to be an existing stack for the furnace Blue shading: Vent (God I hope so) piping relocated around the vent. Conclusion: Someone was IuI - Installing under the Influence. Somebody was high when they did that. OP, were it me, I would do the following:
None of that is my handiwork. We moved in last September and I've been trying to figure all that out ever since. I'll have to see how brave I am feeling before giving all that a try. ETA: I believe the previous owners did a lot of the work either themselves or with family, and cut corners wherever they save a few bucks. ETA 2: I'll see if I can get a picture of the whole furnace from the floor up later today. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 4:27:53 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ETA: I believe the previous owners did a lot of the work either themselves or with family, and cut corners wherever they save a few bucks. |
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Posted: 3/23/2017 4:28:53 PM EDT
[#22]
Pulled meter and 3 hours you can have a new panel with 54/60 circuits in the same foot print. Over thinking is easy I do it all the time.
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Posted: 3/23/2017 7:36:26 PM EDT
[#23]
I like the magical floating expansion tank too...
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Posted: 3/24/2017 12:52:46 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like the magical floating expansion tank too... |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 3:55:35 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pulled meter and 3 hours you can have a new panel with 54/60 circuits in the same foot print. Over thinking is easy I do it all the time. 1) The panel in there is 150 AMP. Do I have to stay with a 150 AMP panel? I was able to read the print one of the incoming cables. It reads, "600 Volts Type use or RHW or RHH." Here is an image. All three with a 12 gauge for reference. What's the max that cable will support? 2) What do I do about this conduit? I cannot stack an even taller panel on top of it. It terminates 54" from the floor. The current panel is another 18" on top of that. Then there is an open 10.5" on top of that. Lookie here. Here is the other side of the wall. The smallest 30 slot panel I could find was 33.7 inches tall. The only way to fit that in would be to drop the conduit. Can you just walk into Lowes and get a custom length of threaded conduit (What are the code requirements for the material?). Not sure I could even unscrew the upper portion from the coupling. Also, aren't there height restrictions on the top breaker? |
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Posted: 3/27/2017 8:50:24 PM EDT
[#26]
Cut the pipe length. Measure from coupling and the bottom of new panel. Install new panel with main breaker down or main lugs down. Or at the coupling remove old pipe and screw in IMC cut the length. Could not tell of you have rigid metal, IMC,etc. You have room to make it fit. Wire size I can't tell from pictures. It should be 1/0-2/0 maybe and it looks like Aluminum.
Seems like a new panel with expanded spaces is best solution. I have done hundreds if not a thousand panel changes in last 30 years. |
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Posted: 3/28/2017 12:25:58 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've thought about it but there are some things I don't know. 1) The panel in there is 150 AMP. Do I have to stay with a 150 AMP panel? I was able to read the print one of the incoming cables. It reads, "600 Volts Type use or RHW or RHH." Here is an image. All three with a 12 gauge for reference. What's the max that cable will support? 2) What do I do about this conduit? I cannot stack an even taller panel on top of it. It terminates 54" from the floor. The current panel is another 18" on top of that. Then there is an open 10.5" on top of that. Lookie here. Here is the other side of the wall. The smallest 30 slot panel I could find was 33.7 inches tall. The only way to fit that in would be to drop the conduit. Can you just walk into Lowes and get a custom length of threaded conduit (What are the code requirements for the material?). Not sure I could even unscrew the upper portion from the coupling. Also, aren't there height restrictions on the top breaker? 2) Is that conduit permanently in the poured concrete floor? I would probably just cut it down to height and set the new panel on top of the shortened length. As for where the main breaker is, you can install the panel upside down if needed. |
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Posted: 3/28/2017 4:11:48 PM EDT
[#28]
Looks pretty far out of code for a long time.
The area in front of a panel has to be pretty close to an upright refrigerator in size for servicing. While things get added afterwards that violate if you try and replace the panel it has to meet the code in affect now. I have enough licenses (including a PE) that the 'not inspected route' is rarely an option. I can ram stuff through by sealing a drawing off though. It is not usually worth being 'that engineer' though. |
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Posted: 3/28/2017 4:43:45 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Looks pretty far out of code for a long time. The area in front of a panel has to be pretty close to an upright refrigerator in size for servicing. While things get added afterwards that violate if you try and replace the panel it has to meet the code in affect now. I have enough licenses (including a PE) that the 'not inspected route' is rarely an option. I can ram stuff through by sealing a drawing off though. It is not usually worth being 'that engineer' though. |
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Posted: 3/28/2017 5:05:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1) The amperage of panel you use depends on the ampacity of the wire feeding it. If you look at more of the wire feeding it, you should find somewhere that lists is size in AWG. Then we can tell you how many amps it can safely conduct. Increasing in amperage may also require a new meter from the utility co, a new meter base, a new weatherhead, etc. This is something that we need more info to help you with, or you need to consult a licensed electrician for your area. I'll try again but the one wire where the writing is visible 90% of it is scraped off. 2) Is that conduit permanently in the poured concrete floor? I would probably just cut it down to height and set the new panel on top of the shortened length. As for where the main breaker is, you can install the panel upside down if needed. |
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Posted: 3/28/2017 5:56:11 PM EDT
[#31]
It's a tough call.
Even though the panel is discontinued it looks like standard breakers will fit. The main is a different story and if it ever breaks you will have to order a rebuilt breaker. this is rare but it does happen. I'm not really a fan of tandem breakers either. If it were my house I would just replace the entire panel with a larger one. Square D QO or Cutler hammer CH series. Your way will work & no conduit is necessary as long as the wire is physically protected from damage. At minimum get a larger sub panel to allow for future expansion. |
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Posted: 3/30/2017 1:17:31 PM EDT
[#32]
If there is ANY way to fit a larger panel do it.
Any 'formula' to determine the number of breakers based on the rating of the main is BS. 'Diversity of loads' (not all ever run at the same time) means the size of the branch circuit breakers can easily exceed the main breaker. You have to add up the loads to determine what is required. There are a number of NEC methods (they are in the Appendices) for ESTIMATING loads. In a completed house just go look at all the loads and start adding them up. Even then you are not likely to have heating and cooling loads from the same space at the same time (and IIRC the NEC methods tell you to account for this). Nothing wrong with C-H breakers and panels. You will save money by using all those breakers in your new panel (minus the one not working if you can find it; and you should be able to find iit or fix the wiring error). |
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Posted: 4/3/2017 5:15:16 PM EDT
[#33]
Faulty/Loose Connection?
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Posted: 4/3/2017 7:03:10 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryGood eye catching that. Yes looks like a poor connection or over a ping and faulty breaker not tripping. Either way replace and check all connections.
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Posted: 4/11/2017 4:36:00 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryI'll check that out. Thanks.
I am looking into just replacing the whole panel. I'll probably have a whole host of questions when I get there. ETA: Hot Spot |
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Posted: 4/11/2017 5:51:35 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll check that out. Thanks. I am looking into just replacing the whole panel. I'll probably have a whole host of questions when I get there. ETA: Hot Spot Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am looking into just replacing the whole panel. I'll probably have a whole host of questions when I get there. ETA: Hot Spot Remove and Replace (R&R). When you have the breaker out look very carefully at the contact it was sitting on. The breaker is scrap. Overheating like that creates carbon tracks in the plastic that increase leakage. You cannot adequately test the device to scrap it. Find out what year of code (NEC or other) is being used. The old breaker limits of the NEC are gone. Who owns what parts of the service entrance? In Virginia the POCO owns and installs everything down to the input lugs of the meter. They even gave away meter pans and boxes since they had a preferred model for many years. 200 amps is about the bottom of new installs. For many years if you upgraded a service capacity their side was free. It varies by state and county and sometimes even by POCO. |
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