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Posted: 8/20/2016 2:23:49 PM EDT
I am fixing my block basement walls - frost heave or early backfill buckled them inwards a few inches at grade long ago.
The mortar also looks like it didn't have enough cement in it.  I bought this place knowing there was a problem and it's time to repair it.
Next week I will be removing the backfill to the footing and pushing the walls vertical.
I cut two holes in each block face, dropped an eight foot piece of rebar into the vertical core, and will be grouting the whole wall.

I am in Michigan's UP and part of the basement is living space so it will be worth it to insulate while I have it open.

I was planning to use 1 1/2 or 2 inch XPS - the local place carries the Owens Corning pink board.
Has anyone done this, or can you offer tips?

What did you use to cover the above grade portion of the insulation?
My practical options seem to be limited to stucco or one of the vinyl brick or rock patterns.
I have between 16 and 24 inches of exposed block to cover above grade.

Existing siding is aluminum.  Many mornings there is condensation dripping from the lower course.
I want to make sure that doesn't wind up sitting against the mud sill. Does anyone have a good detail for flashing at the bottom of existing siding?
Link Posted: 8/20/2016 4:23:13 PM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 8/20/2016 8:44:48 PM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:
spray foam?
View Quote



XPS is about half the cost for a similar R value.  Closed cell spray foam is $1 per board foot, 2" XPS is about $1/square foot.
Plus, how would you cover the above grade spray foam?
Link Posted: 8/20/2016 9:14:15 PM EDT
[#3]
I would use the XPS 2" boards. I believe Owens Corning has instructions on how to install them properly on the exterior. Like sealing gaps between boards, how to attach them, etc.

For the above grade section, I would look at using aluminum flashing to tie it into your existing siding. You can buy rolls of aluminum and use a brake to bend it to shape. You could rent a brake and try it yourself, or ask a siding company to quote it. Just treat that as your final row of siding and run it underneath the existing siding.
Link Posted: 8/20/2016 10:12:12 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I would use the XPS 2" boards. I believe Owens Corning has instructions on how to install them properly on the exterior. Like sealing gaps between boards, how to attach them, etc.

For the above grade section, I would look at using aluminum flashing to tie it into your existing siding. You can buy rolls of aluminum and use a brake to bend it to shape. You could rent a brake and try it yourself, or ask a siding company to quote it. Just treat that as your final row of siding and run it underneath the existing siding.
View Quote


Thanks.
I've read the Owens Corning instructions for underground installation.  I haven't seen many practical examples of covering besides stucco.
Lots of snow and ice in the UP, and I'm concerned about how well stucco would hold up.

I may give aluminum a try.  The local hardware store has a large brake they rent for a minimal fee.  Would you bend and seam vertically every 16 inches or whatever the width is or run horizontal pieces the width of the brake?  
Link Posted: 8/20/2016 11:38:37 PM EDT
[#5]
I realize you are digging the foundation out already. However, why not just insulate on the inside? I know there are benefits to insulating from the outside but there are also negatives.....mainly how to finish it.

I built a house and I installed 2inch XPS on the inside of the basement walls. I'm pleased with how well it insulates.
Link Posted: 8/21/2016 10:20:20 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I may give aluminum a try.  The local hardware store has a large brake they rent for a minimal fee.  Would you bend and seam vertically every 16 inches or whatever the width is or run horizontal pieces the width of the brake?  
View Quote

To be honest, I have no idea. I've never used the aluminum rolls like that. I was just thinking that would be a durable material and could be weather sealed relatively easily using existing siding techniques. Around the metro Detroit area, roofers and garage door installers use the aluminum rolls to create custom covers for fascias and exterior trim boards. Hopefully someone with some siding experience comes along.
Link Posted: 8/21/2016 11:47:34 AM EDT
[#7]
Do you think you can remove the first two courses of siding so that you can flash properly at the sill and get behind the house wrap?  Do you know if there is house wrap?

What do you plan to use for waterproofing below grade?  Will there be compatibility concerns between the solvents in the waterproofing and the XPS?

Are you thinking about EIFS or cement stucco?

Link Posted: 8/21/2016 3:16:37 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I realize you are digging the foundation out already. However, why not just insulate on the inside? I know there are benefits to insulating from the outside but there are also negatives.....mainly how to finish it.

I built a house and I installed 2inch XPS on the inside of the basement walls. I'm pleased with how well it insulates.
View Quote




I could. If I can help it I don't want to lose three inches of space at the bottom of the stairs.  Winder L staircase that would result in an abnormally narrow step.
What did you cover it with?  I wasn't keen on putting drywall over it.  I need to go reread the code and manufacturer's instructions to see if it needs to be covered for smoke/fire.
Link Posted: 8/21/2016 3:35:27 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Do you think you can remove the first two courses of siding so that you can flash properly at the sill and get behind the house wrap?  Do you know if there is house wrap?

What do you plan to use for waterproofing below grade?  Will there be compatibility concerns between the solvents in the waterproofing and the XPS?

Are you thinking about EIFS or cement stucco?

View Quote


I can unzip and remove the bottom course easily and was planning to do so.  Siding is double 4" so with one course I can probably get an additional layer of house wrap and flashing up at least 4 to 5 inches above the bottom of the sill.  Second course can be removed if needed to get up higher.  My thought was to put an additional strip of house wrap behind the existing house wrap so it hangs down below the siding against the block a few inches, bring the foam to within half an inch of the bottom of the siding, tuck the flashing between the two layers of housewrap, and reinstall the siding starter strip.  One of the sites I read seemed to caution against doing this because of possible condensation at the sill from moisture that gets behind the foam and wicks or travels upwards, eventually resulting in rotten or dry rotten sill and sheathing.

I was planning to pressure wash the block and apply a good roofing ice shield for exterior waterproofing.  Add heat and pressure to make sure it seals well.
I did not anticipate any problems putting XPS against ice shield.

Haven't seen EIFS anywhere.  Traditional cement stucco was an option.  Haven't done it before.  Somewhat concerned about putting a bunch of work into it and having dinner plate sized scabs flake off in a couple years.    Lots of snow and ice here.

Link Posted: 8/21/2016 7:01:46 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I can unzip and remove the bottom course easily and was planning to do so.  Siding is double 4" so with one course I can probably get an additional layer of house wrap and flashing up at least 4 to 5 inches above the bottom of the sill.  Second course can be removed if needed to get up higher.  My thought was to put an additional strip of house wrap behind the existing house wrap so it hangs down below the siding against the block a few inches, bring the foam to within half an inch of the bottom of the siding, tuck the flashing between the two layers of housewrap, and reinstall the siding starter strip.  One of the sites I read seemed to caution against doing this because of possible condensation at the sill from moisture that gets behind the foam and wicks or travels upwards, eventually resulting in rotten or dry rotten sill and sheathing.

I was planning to pressure wash the block and apply a good roofing ice shield for exterior waterproofing.  Add heat and pressure to make sure it seals well.
I did not anticipate any problems putting XPS against ice shield.

Haven't seen EIFS anywhere.  Traditional cement stucco was an option.  Haven't done it before.  Somewhat concerned about putting a bunch of work into it and having dinner plate sized scabs flake off in a couple years.    Lots of snow and ice here.

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do you think you can remove the first two courses of siding so that you can flash properly at the sill and get behind the house wrap?  Do you know if there is house wrap?

What do you plan to use for waterproofing below grade?  Will there be compatibility concerns between the solvents in the waterproofing and the XPS?

Are you thinking about EIFS or cement stucco?



I can unzip and remove the bottom course easily and was planning to do so.  Siding is double 4" so with one course I can probably get an additional layer of house wrap and flashing up at least 4 to 5 inches above the bottom of the sill.  Second course can be removed if needed to get up higher.  My thought was to put an additional strip of house wrap behind the existing house wrap so it hangs down below the siding against the block a few inches, bring the foam to within half an inch of the bottom of the siding, tuck the flashing between the two layers of housewrap, and reinstall the siding starter strip.  One of the sites I read seemed to caution against doing this because of possible condensation at the sill from moisture that gets behind the foam and wicks or travels upwards, eventually resulting in rotten or dry rotten sill and sheathing.

I was planning to pressure wash the block and apply a good roofing ice shield for exterior waterproofing.  Add heat and pressure to make sure it seals well.
I did not anticipate any problems putting XPS against ice shield.

Haven't seen EIFS anywhere.  Traditional cement stucco was an option.  Haven't done it before.  Somewhat concerned about putting a bunch of work into it and having dinner plate sized scabs flake off in a couple years.    Lots of snow and ice here.



That is why you cover the foam with wire lath and then Stucco this give the cement something to bond to.   http://www.lowes.com/pd/Stucco-Trim/3374310
Link Posted: 8/21/2016 7:07:04 PM EDT
[#11]
There is a site called Building Science that covers exactly this topic OP.

I suggest you spend a few hours reading on their site for true best practices.
Link Posted: 8/21/2016 9:06:13 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I can unzip and remove the bottom course easily and was planning to do so.  Siding is double 4" so with one course I can probably get an additional layer of house wrap and flashing up at least 4 to 5 inches above the bottom of the sill.  Second course can be removed if needed to get up higher.  My thought was to put an additional strip of house wrap behind the existing house wrap so it hangs down below the siding against the block a few inches, bring the foam to within half an inch of the bottom of the siding, tuck the flashing between the two layers of housewrap, and reinstall the siding starter strip.  One of the sites I read seemed to caution against doing this because of possible condensation at the sill from moisture that gets behind the foam and wicks or travels upwards, eventually resulting in rotten or dry rotten sill and sheathing.

That sounds like a good plan.

If you get a chance, read about Henry Blueskin - LINK  We've used it in the past and so far no complaints.  It's perfect for the wall sheathing to the cmu transition.  I wouldn't lap more than 8" or so on the wall sheathing because it doesn't allow vapor to escape but it is pliable and water tight if you use the primer.  The folks at Henry ( the tech line ) are very helpful...  If you do decide to use it have some help / extra hands.  If the sticky back touches itself it wont come apart.

I was planning to pressure wash the block and apply a good roofing ice shield for exterior waterproofing.  Add heat and pressure to make sure it seals well.
I did not anticipate any problems putting XPS against ice shield.  

Tuff-N-Dri has a nice product but I'm not sure how the cost per square foot compares.  I think their R-value is bull ( when wet ) but it does help to get the water to the footing drain.

Haven't seen EIFS anywhere.  Traditional cement stucco was an option.  Haven't done it before.  Somewhat concerned about putting a bunch of work into it and having dinner plate sized scabs flake off in a couple years.    Lots of snow and ice here.



Yeah, I don't know which product would be best in your area.  I assume you have 120 degree swings in the UP,  that's a lot of thermal movement for a product like cement stucco.  The wire mesh should hold it together but it's probably going to crack.  Is it commonly used up there?

View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do you think you can remove the first two courses of siding so that you can flash properly at the sill and get behind the house wrap?  Do you know if there is house wrap?

What do you plan to use for waterproofing below grade?  Will there be compatibility concerns between the solvents in the waterproofing and the XPS?

Are you thinking about EIFS or cement stucco?



I can unzip and remove the bottom course easily and was planning to do so.  Siding is double 4" so with one course I can probably get an additional layer of house wrap and flashing up at least 4 to 5 inches above the bottom of the sill.  Second course can be removed if needed to get up higher.  My thought was to put an additional strip of house wrap behind the existing house wrap so it hangs down below the siding against the block a few inches, bring the foam to within half an inch of the bottom of the siding, tuck the flashing between the two layers of housewrap, and reinstall the siding starter strip.  One of the sites I read seemed to caution against doing this because of possible condensation at the sill from moisture that gets behind the foam and wicks or travels upwards, eventually resulting in rotten or dry rotten sill and sheathing.

That sounds like a good plan.

If you get a chance, read about Henry Blueskin - LINK  We've used it in the past and so far no complaints.  It's perfect for the wall sheathing to the cmu transition.  I wouldn't lap more than 8" or so on the wall sheathing because it doesn't allow vapor to escape but it is pliable and water tight if you use the primer.  The folks at Henry ( the tech line ) are very helpful...  If you do decide to use it have some help / extra hands.  If the sticky back touches itself it wont come apart.

I was planning to pressure wash the block and apply a good roofing ice shield for exterior waterproofing.  Add heat and pressure to make sure it seals well.
I did not anticipate any problems putting XPS against ice shield.  

Tuff-N-Dri has a nice product but I'm not sure how the cost per square foot compares.  I think their R-value is bull ( when wet ) but it does help to get the water to the footing drain.

Haven't seen EIFS anywhere.  Traditional cement stucco was an option.  Haven't done it before.  Somewhat concerned about putting a bunch of work into it and having dinner plate sized scabs flake off in a couple years.    Lots of snow and ice here.



Yeah, I don't know which product would be best in your area.  I assume you have 120 degree swings in the UP,  that's a lot of thermal movement for a product like cement stucco.  The wire mesh should hold it together but it's probably going to crack.  Is it commonly used up there?




Link Posted: 8/21/2016 9:58:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:




I could. If I can help it I don't want to lose three inches of space at the bottom of the stairs.  Winder L staircase that would result in an abnormally narrow step.
What did you cover it with?  I wasn't keen on putting drywall over it.  I need to go reread the code and manufacturer's instructions to see if it needs to be covered for smoke/fire.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
I realize you are digging the foundation out already. However, why not just insulate on the inside? I know there are benefits to insulating from the outside but there are also negatives.....mainly how to finish it.

I built a house and I installed 2inch XPS on the inside of the basement walls. I'm pleased with how well it insulates.




I could. If I can help it I don't want to lose three inches of space at the bottom of the stairs.  Winder L staircase that would result in an abnormally narrow step.
What did you cover it with?  I wasn't keen on putting drywall over it.  I need to go reread the code and manufacturer's instructions to see if it needs to be covered for smoke/fire.




It should be covered if inside.  I glued it to the concrete wall and then framed over it.  Covered the framing with drywall.
Link Posted: 8/22/2016 6:30:16 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
There is a site called Building Science that covers exactly this topic OP.

I suggest you spend a few hours reading on their site for true best practices.
View Quote



Great resource.  Thank you.  I didn't see much in the way of specifics for an exterior insulation retrofit though - "ideal from a physics standpoint but cost prohibitive for most circumstances."
Link Posted: 8/22/2016 6:31:01 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


That is why you cover the foam with wire lath and then Stucco this give the cement something to bond to.   http://www.lowes.com/pd/Stucco-Trim/3374310
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Do you think you can remove the first two courses of siding so that you can flash properly at the sill and get behind the house wrap?  Do you know if there is house wrap?

What do you plan to use for waterproofing below grade?  Will there be compatibility concerns between the solvents in the waterproofing and the XPS?

Are you thinking about EIFS or cement stucco?



I can unzip and remove the bottom course easily and was planning to do so.  Siding is double 4" so with one course I can probably get an additional layer of house wrap and flashing up at least 4 to 5 inches above the bottom of the sill.  Second course can be removed if needed to get up higher.  My thought was to put an additional strip of house wrap behind the existing house wrap so it hangs down below the siding against the block a few inches, bring the foam to within half an inch of the bottom of the siding, tuck the flashing between the two layers of housewrap, and reinstall the siding starter strip.  One of the sites I read seemed to caution against doing this because of possible condensation at the sill from moisture that gets behind the foam and wicks or travels upwards, eventually resulting in rotten or dry rotten sill and sheathing.

I was planning to pressure wash the block and apply a good roofing ice shield for exterior waterproofing.  Add heat and pressure to make sure it seals well.
I did not anticipate any problems putting XPS against ice shield.

Haven't seen EIFS anywhere.  Traditional cement stucco was an option.  Haven't done it before.  Somewhat concerned about putting a bunch of work into it and having dinner plate sized scabs flake off in a couple years.    Lots of snow and ice here.



That is why you cover the foam with wire lath and then Stucco this give the cement something to bond to.   http://www.lowes.com/pd/Stucco-Trim/3374310



I know.  maybe I should have typed hexagon scales instead of dinnerplate scabs.  
Link Posted: 8/22/2016 7:10:58 AM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Yeah, I don't know which product would be best in your area.  I assume you have 120 degree swings in the UP,  that's a lot of thermal movement for a product like cement stucco.  The wire mesh should hold it together but it's probably going to crack.  Is it commonly used up there?

View Quote



Thanks for the post and product recommendations.  120F air is about right.  Maybe mitigated by the block being close to the ground?
Stucco is uncommon, and the places it is used are older installations with problems.  Lots of bare block, brick, and rubble.
Link Posted: 8/22/2016 7:12:14 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



It should be covered if inside.  I glued it to the concrete wall and then framed over it.  Covered the framing with drywall.
View Quote

I went and measured.  Staircase will be if I insulate on the inside.
Link Posted: 8/22/2016 11:56:04 AM EDT
[#18]
Regardless of where you put it, the best way to stick it to the walls is to use regular canned spray foam. Squirt it on the sheet and the press the sheet against the wall. Use some planks to hold it against the wall for a little while until the foam cures. MUCH more securely held against the wall than even foam rated adhesive.
Link Posted: 8/22/2016 12:01:28 PM EDT
[#19]
Here's an idea but might cost a fair amount. Put the foam up against the wall outside and then have a LineX dealer come and spray a gray coat of LineX material on the exposed portion. LineX is simply bedliner material.

I was thinking about this issue before I built my current house and asked a LineX dealer if if was possible. He said he could do it because he had a mobile spray rig but also said a lot of dealers don't have that capability. We didn't talk price though.......

I ended up insulating the basement walls on the inside so didn't explore it further.
Link Posted: 8/22/2016 12:16:25 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Here's an idea but might cost a fair amount. Put the foam up against the wall outside and then have a LineX dealer come and spray a gray coat of LineX material on the exposed portion. LineX is simply bedliner material.

I was thinking about this issue before I built my current house and asked a LineX dealer if if was possible. He said he could do it because he had a mobile spray rig but also said a lot of dealers don't have that capability. We didn't talk price though.......

I ended up insulating the basement walls on the inside so didn't explore it further.
View Quote



I have heard this suggestion a couple times.  I think there is an ICF home nearby that had it done this way.  If I can find a shop with a mobile spray rig I'm thinking this or using vinyl faux brick /rock panels will be my best bet.



Thanks for all the replies!


Link Posted: 8/23/2016 2:45:17 PM EDT
[#21]
google "bituthene"  Not for insulation but it will waterproof the hell out of basement walls.
Link Posted: 8/23/2016 3:03:58 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
google "bituthene"  Not for insulation but it will waterproof the hell out of basement walls.
View Quote


It's good stuff.  It spans cold and control joints very well.
Link Posted: 8/24/2016 1:23:19 AM EDT
[#23]
Not to derail the thread but how do you plan on pushing the wall out?
Link Posted: 8/24/2016 1:37:53 AM EDT
[#24]
I would say spray foam
Link Posted: 8/24/2016 9:30:58 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Not to derail the thread but how do you plan on pushing the wall out?
View Quote



All four sides heaved in varying amounts.  The rear wall is the worst, with about 2.5 inches to bring it back to plumb.  The front wall is just under 2 inches.  The side wall is about 1.  The other side is less than 3/4, but it is the garage wall and I'm not doing anything with it.  The corners are straight and plumb.
Link Posted: 8/24/2016 9:32:12 AM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I would say spray foam
View Quote



Looked into it.  I love spray foam, but the cost doesn't work out.
Link Posted: 8/24/2016 10:14:10 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Here's an idea but might cost a fair amount. Put the foam up against the wall outside and then have a LineX dealer come and spray a gray coat of LineX material on the exposed portion. LineX is simply bedliner material.

I was thinking about this issue before I built my current house and asked a LineX dealer if if was possible. He said he could do it because he had a mobile spray rig but also said a lot of dealers don't have that capability. We didn't talk price though.......

I ended up insulating the basement walls on the inside so didn't explore it further.
View Quote



i kinda like this idea.

they do make DIY kits for Linex "like" products. that might be something to look into also.
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